Why There Are No Female LoL Pros: How to Change That

If you haven't heard the news, there's a new aspiring team in town. What makes this team different? Every member of the team is female. They recently put this video out. And as you can imagine, the video basically went ignored. There weren't any major threads popping up, nobody responded to it, and the generally mature League of Legends community went back to their business. As such, there's nothing after this break, and you might as well not even click through to read the rest of this article.

I wish.

Their video found itself on the #1 spot of Reddit's 'cringe' subreddit, with comments such as:

bigp3rm: synchronized menstruation

wildabeast20: CLG B-cup team*

One need tune into their stream for only a minute or two to see comments in twitch.tv chat such as:

  •  xanbotThis First Blood is sponsored by Tampax

  •  folkytomYou want to go pro as a top laner, but you never practise top...

  •  br0nanIf I was the manager I'd end up sleeping with Hafus team instead.

  •  rem1xzrfolkytom

  •  godlif3ACCEPT MY FRIEND REQUEST

  •  avdepazlol these tampax comments

  •  gromgarI have man boobs, can i join siren?

 Or the forums:

They're Sirens because they're using all of this attention to get their paycheck rather than actually playing the game. The more everyone hates on them, the more video views they get, the more viewers they get on streams, and the more media attention they get. They don't need to be good at League.

 

I thought they called themselves Sirens because they're loud and annoying?

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible to make jokes about gender or race or whatever. I found this particularly funny comment on their Reddit thread:

"I play Sona." "I play Caitlyn" "I play Lux." "I play Irelia." "I play Jarvan."

"GODDAMN IT KATIE. HOW DO WE GIRLPOWER NOW?! FUCK."

What makes it funny as opposed to the other comments? The punchline isn't 'hahahah, they're women'.

Now, context is also important.

Among my close group of friends, I make a LOT of jokes that could be construed as race/gender/sex insensitive  (I personally avoid jokes that are insensitive to the gay/trans community because the struggles they face in society are still too present and all-encompassing). I often joke that I'm only friends with my friends (white college students) because I'm secretly planning on mugging them, we all refer to any black actor as 'Don Cheadle' due to a misidentification by a close friend; these jokes are essentially part of a massive inside joke that our culture shares.

 

But inside jokes are only funny when they are kept inside; they can be very offensive in the wrong contexts, where people may not realize that they are jokes, and may not know the opinions of the speakers. What makes them funny in my friend group is that we all know each other, and we all know how massively out-of-sync the comments are with our personalities. Essentially, it's a massive form of irony, and irony is only funny when you know the context.

Before I go on, I want to clarify something. I don't think the Sirens are yet a competitive team. This article isn't about Team Siren, but about the reaction people had to them, and why it's indicative of a culture that inhibits the ability of female players to rise in competitive LoL.

The reason I think that all-female teams aren't a horrible idea is the following: I don't think that managers would think that current pro teams would be mature enough to live in a gaming house with a female player (at this point in time). They could be right, they could be wrong, but why pick up a female player when that chance exists, and you could pick up an equally skilled male player?

As such, I think that the all-female gaming house is a good idea, not as a way to start an LCS team, but as a way to create a healthy training environment, so that they could ever reach that level.

What's the Big Deal?

In a number of sports (I'm going to go with Starcraft 2, Chess, and LoL, but e-sports in generally would also suffice), women and men compete in the same league. However, women are VASTLY underrepresented at the highest levels of play. For example, the top ranked female chess player, Judit Polgár, is the only woman in the top 100 players, and is currently 52nd (with a top ranking of 8). In Starcraft, the only major female player is Scarlett, who is best known for sweeping the 2012 Starcraft 2 World Championship Series Canada and 2012 Battle.net North American Championship, although she has remained relevant since, recently beating MVP in the GSTL. There are 0 pro LoL players.

Why is that?

There are a lot of reasons one could give.

Women are inherently worse at LoL.

Can we agree to just reject this one and move on?

So what external factors can we expect to decrease the number of women in high-level play? Just searching through the comments on Tuck's article, quite a few were given (in order of when I saw them):

Fewer Women

Ultimately, I think the answer is very simple. The reason there are fewer LCS-level female LoL players (publicly 0 at the moment) is simple. There are fewer competitive female players. Let's say your skill at LoL is based on 6 different skills, each of which you can rate from 1-10. You calculate those skills by rolling a d10. You have a 1 in a million chance of rolling all 10s. However, let's say your pool is 1 million players. You have a 62.3% chance of having 1 player with all 10s. On the other hand, if you only have 100 thousand players, you have a 9.6% chance of having 1 player with all 10s. And what about players with 9 10s? With a 100 thousand player pool, you have a 62.3% chance of having one. With a million player pool, you have a 99.9955% chance of having one (in other words, you have tons of them). Statistical studies on Chess have shown that the gulf between men and women comes almost entirely from the much smaller pool of female players, not an inherent skill gap.

As such, we should focus on the reasons why fewer women are drawn to computer games, and why fewer female players might play LoL competitively.

Women are less competitive

This may be a valid point, depending on the way it's framed. It's not that women are just born incapable of being competitive, it's that society criticizes them for being competitive. Socially, people's upbringing can affect the sorts of things they practice and get better at. As a kid, I got Legos and Kumon books, so is it any surprise that I have good spatial and mathematical reasoning? This is sort of a hard point to address, but it starts with the gaming community at large. A lot of this is a framing issue. A guy who wants to win at all costs is competitive; a woman who wants to win at all costs is 'a bitch'. But don't take my word for it; here's what one of the best female Magic players, Jackie Lee, had to say just one year ago. I'm not going to try to summarize her post -- it's so well written that I'd only mangle it in attempting to paraphrase it in such a short space -- but I am going to re-list 3 of her best suggestions:

1. Stop making hilarious jokes about women's gender.
6. Stop using gendered insults.
7. Call each other out on poor behavior.

Seriously, read the article; it's great, and it leads directly into my next point

Existing pro teams (and the gaming community at large) may be uncomfortable environments for women

I think the community in general is a very uncomfortable environment for women (or minorities of all kinds). Go ahead and look through tribunal and tell me how many reports you see where the reported player called somebody a c**t/f****t/n****r. Are there even analog insults for male/straight/white? As Louis CK put it:

"what can you really call a white man that really digs deep?"
"Hey, cracker!"
"Oh, ruined my day. Shouldn't have called me a cracker. It's bringing me back to owning land and people. What a drag."

Now imagine the people you play with are constantly using words that could be used to target you, about the people you play against. It may not bother you the first time, or the first day, but after 500 games, how are you going to feel about it?

And this isn't anecdotal! According to a University of Maryland study, female-name chat users get 25 times more malicious messages!

Lack of opportunities available for women

This creates a lack of opportunity, because a lot of moving up is in who you know. I'm not saying that the best people don't get the pro spots, I'm saying that if you don't know anybody else who's good/pro, you can't practice with them, and the gulf only grows. So if a high number of high-Elo players talk in ways that are potentially offensive/would make female gamers not want to play with them, that makes it harder for female gamers to practice at a high caliber level. The pro teams will be made up of all male players because those players will be the best players. But the best players will all be male because there is no way for female players to practice in a non-toxic, competitive environment. Here's a pretty good reddit comment -- in the context of Starcraft -- on why it benefits gaming teams to pick up minorities (in this case, women) who show promise, despite not CURRENTLY being as good as existing pros.

The Bigger Picture - Misogyny in LoL (and gaming)

But this brings bigger issues to the forefront. Women simply aren't taken seriously in much of gaming culture. And there's very much a Catch-22 that makes this hard to change. Essentially, the problem is this. In gaming, our 'default' gender is male. We assume that the people we're playing with, typically, are male (or maybe the gender of their characters). So female gamers have two options:

  1. Openly express gender
  2. Hide gender entirely

If they do the former, they face increased harassment. Now, I don't mean to say that only women are harassed. But when men are harassed in LoL, it's typically because of their play or their comments. Women are often harassed in LoL, simply for being women. That is, the harassment that is oriented at them is oriented not at anything they've done, but at the fact that they are women.

On the other hand, if they hide gender entirely, no problem is solved. Why? Because in the absence of any evidence, they will be perceived of as male. This is why the gaming community has this idea that the all 'girl gamers' emphasize their genders. There are plenty of female gamers. If they express their gender, they will be cognitively sorted into the 'girl gamer' group, because they're expressing their gender. On the other hand, if they don't, they simply won't be considered female, and so they won't be considered a counter-example to these gender ideas.

This is even worse for streamers. After all, streaming is not just about gameplay, but personal connection. People watch Guardsman Bob because he's chill and has a penguin. People watched many early S1 streamers for their antics. Female streamers simply don't have access to this. Any female streamer typically faces criticism of attention-seeking, and those who aren't attention-seeking will naturally shy away from all of that negative attention. So once again, yes, there are female streamers who seek attention, it's just that they're the only ones GETTING attention (by virtue of seeking it). Their being more notable makes them the examples everybody thinks of and builds stereotypes around.

I experienced a similar thing when I first started publicizing my videos; a lot of people hadn't expected that I'd be black, and since then, I've gotten the occasional negative message.

Before my videos, I wasn't a black LoL player, I was a LoL player. Women face the same problem, except the main criticism leveled against female players is attention-seeking behavior, which of course, is verified by picture/video evidence of their being female. So the very nature of being identifiable as female is the very evidence people use to label female gamers as attention-seeking; this makes a female gamer almost by definition attention seeking, so how are these gamers supposed to support the game they love?

How to Behave

I hate to offer any advice when I've already linked this article (written by a woman, no less), but if I had to propose a solution, it would be this:

  1. There won't be pro female players until there are more competitive female players in general.
  2. Women are driven away from gaming because they feel like outsiders for a few reasons:
    • Misogynistic jokes/comments
    • Nobody acting 'normally' around them (either being nervous or hitting on them)
    • Et Al.
  3. Women can't solve that problem on their own, not because they're powerless, but because the problem is in the community's behavior. We can't expect that women simply be thicker-skinned; this culture IS offensive.
    Edit: When I say 'we can't expect that women simply be thicker-skinned', I'm not saying that they are incapable of it, I'm saying that it's unfair to force them to. This applies to the toxic community in general, and is why we should solve toxicity. But it applies much more strongly to minorities in the game, especially women.
  4. Men who are aware of this problem need to make sure that they aren't enforcing it. We can do this by not making offensive comments or jokes that are either about women or denigrate women, and by treating female gamers like normal people.
  5. Men (and women) who are aware of this problem need to also make sure that they don't stand for other people enacting it.

Again, I don't mean to say that there's nothing women can do to mitigate these problems. But the behavioral problems largely stem from men, and it is simply irresponsible to put the onus on women to avoid being in any situation in which a man might be TEMPTED to behave poorly; this is simply victim-blaming.

What do you think, RoG? What can the community do to be more inclusive? Would this cause there to me more high-level female players? Is gender the only issue? I'd be curious to hear Aphromoo's thoughts on being a black pro player; I have received a small amount of blowback, but he's much more prominent than I am.

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668

Comments

  • #459 GentlemanGustaf

    Again, the statistics don't care what your categories are. When they did the study, they probably didn't even label axes 'men' and 'women' they probably labelled them 'control' and 'group 1', or something equally unrelated, and the point is simple: it doesn't matter because statistics are numbers, and that those numbers happen to be linked to concepts is irrelevant to their meaningfulness.

    And that's not the point that the statistics are supposed to make. The point that the statistics are supposed to make is that having a smaller sample group of any subgroup of players leads to a much smaller sample size of high-end players of that subgroup. We have a smaller subgroup of women, thus, we should expect a smaller sample size of high-end female players.

    As for your 'irony', way to be incredibly insensitive to gender identity, and undereducated about gender/sex. People don't CHANGE their gender, they are born with a gender that doesn't match their sex. Gender is a psychological concept that you can't change (well, maybe you could with sufficient enough technology allowing you to alter neuronal structure). Sex is a loose associations of physical qualities that can be changed.

    I'm not saying your reasons for dismissing Scarlett's gender are valid, but if that's your complaint, you've also got Eve (in SC2) and TPA Colalin.

     

  • #460 Velstella

    We would expect to see the 10% of women that the statistics predict, yet we see 0% across all Esports, what does this tell us?

    So 2 people who are female brings us to the expected 10% across all esports?...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

    "the term may refer to biological sex" - Which is what I refer to, sorry that you aren't educated on definitions, here, let me help you in your study hun.

  • #461 GentlemanGustaf

    here's how I know you didn't read the article. They didn't expect (and don't get) proportional representation, according to the study. That means 10% population =/= 10% pro players. in fact, 10% population equates to 1 player in the top 100 players, and statistically speaking, less than 1% in the highest levels.

    yes, but that's referring to biological, not sociological contexts, where the distinction is (less) important.

     

    given that we were talking in the context of a transgender individual, preserving the sex-gender distinction only makes sense.

    Last edited by GentlemanGustaf: 6/14/2013 10:38:33 PM
  • #462 Velstella

    "Overall, the women actually performed slightly better than the model predicted and the top three in particular were playing well ahead of expectations. From positions 3 to 73, the men have a small but consistent advantage, wielding a competitive superiority that slightly exceed what statistics would predict. From the 80th pair onwards, the advantage shifts back to the fairer sex." - Meaning that the number of women is what is keeping women back, not the inherent IQ/skill gap. Women compete at a higher rate than the mathematical model predicted.

    This comparison still makes no sense, because Chess isn't anything like LoL, CoD, WoW, SC2, etc, so using it as if it is a similar game makes no sense, it's nothing like those games, ergo it has no relevance in it's statistics. Showing that less women means less representation at the highest levels in a pure strategy game doesn't make any ground in a game that is so vastly different to chess that you can't make an apt comparison. Chess =/= Esports. Statistics on representation don't always cross over to other non related topics just because they share an activity type (game).

    Well I'm referring to the biological, since that's what determines brain structure of male/female, said player has a male brain, not a female brain.

  • #463 GentlemanGustaf

    actually, transgendered individuals tend to show brain patterning of the gender they associate with, not the sex they have been born into.

    and the cause of that dataset was randomness (if you have a small sample, randomness creates less divergent outliers, and if you have a large sample, randomness creates more divergent outliers). i think it's safe to assume that randomness of distributions of talent applies to chess and LoL alike, given that random distributions are well documented phenomenon that behave according to universal statistical laws.

     

    the only part that might be specific to chess is the aforementioned slight deviation from the expected model (with women slightly overperforming)

  • #464 sushimkr

    The study Gustaf posted proves that the raw IQ and strategic ability of women is on par with men, but from what see Vestella is complaining about how it's not relevant because in LoL, CoD, SC2, etc there's an additional mechanical skill difference.

    Well I hate to admit it, but you're right
    http://biology.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Gender

    Women DO have, on average a slower reaction time. (Usually around .02 ms slower.) This MIGHT make a SMALL difference.

    Also:
    THIS ENTIRE FRIGGIN ARGUMENT IS INDICATIVE OF THE SHIT WOMEN WHO GO INTO ESPORTS GET.
    Seriously. You can't blame them for not wanting to. This kind of shit would deter most people.

     

  • #465 sushimkr

    I may be stereotyping quite a bit, but I'm willing to bet both velstella and dalzee are southern republicans (or at least republicans).
    Gustaf lives in Oregon, a predominantly blue state (assuming linkedin is correct)
    I'm a democrat who lives in California (most democratic state in the usa)

    If that's the case then we've got the old civil war/black rights/women's rights/liberal vs conservative/north vs south/etc. battle lines drawn, and I don't see this ending soon or anyone agreeing with anyone else.

  • #466 Velstella

    Haha, not in the slightest! I live in Washington state, I am Libertarian Left on the political spectrum, and very liberal in my social stances. We all live west coast, and all of our states go left.

  • #467 Dalzee

    Quote from GentlemanGustaf »

    Hey Dalzee, what do you think? Velstella thinks that "you will find your claim to be the bullshit it clearly is, and he will just jump on the free "Prove 'GG' is a retardedly bad liar" bandwagon." Here's the context:

    I say this: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/24508-why-there-are-no-female-lol-pros-how-to-change?comment=446

    Velstella says this: http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/24508-why-there-are-no-female-lol-pros-how-to-change?comment=450

    Are you convinced yet that Velstella is trolling?

    I don't think that invalidates your point, I just hope it explains why I'd rather continue discussing with you but not him.

    Well, I think this is the first time I will actually side with you. I really don't have any reason to believe you are lying about your academic background, I myself have a Degree on Finance, but if asked to take a picture with my degree, I would tell you it's in a different country lol! So I wouldn't be able to provide said picture either. I do believe he has completely gone to a point where he's turning this into personal attacks instead of keeping on topic.

    Though, I do agree that while similar, Chess and LoL cannot be compared.

    Last edited by Dalzee: 6/15/2013 10:28:36 AM
  • #468 Dalzee

    Quote from sushimkr »

    I may be stereotyping quite a bit, but I'm willing to bet both velstella and dalzee are southern republicans (or at least republicans).
    Gustaf lives in Oregon, a predominantly blue state (assuming linkedin is correct)
    I'm a democrat who lives in California (most democratic state in the usa)

    If that's the case then we've got the old civil war/black rights/women's rights/liberal vs conservative/north vs south/etc. battle lines drawn, and I don't see this ending soon or anyone agreeing with anyone else.

    Well, considering I'm not American, I would say it's hard for me to have the old civil war thing going through me, but if you ask me to identify myself with an American party, I do think I would say Republican. :P 

  • #469 GentlemanGustaf

    dalzee, would you disagree that at least the statistical law (smaller subgroups have smaller groups of high-end players to a degree that is greater than proportional), given that it applies to distributions of talent, and not any game in particular, does apply to both games? I feel this is even the crux of your point: that the low number of high-elo women is simply a function of the low number of women in LoL. Is this not correct?

    I agree that there are many causes for the low number of women in Lol. for example, men are socialized to play competitive games more than women (for example, sports are becoming available to both over time, but it is certainly a process), but these societal factors are largely out of our control (we cannot  go back in time and tell parents to enroll their daughters in sports and buy them video games -- I should note that this claim is hyperbolic, lest velstella take it seriously).

    But what is painfully obvious is how much more this applies to some games (fighting games, FPS games, and MOBAs come to mind, and (coincidentally, these games have the worst communities as compared with games like starcraft or, more notably, WoW).

    I do not intend to claim that every woman who does not play LoL does so because of the community. But I would dare say it's a sizable margin. Female friends of mine (who similarly have the Gentleman tag) have considered changing their names to 'Lady ______', but have not as a result of having seen the harassment female players face. Is it not safe to say that many women who sign up for LoL with screennames that they've had for years quit the game when consistently harassed?

    And is it then fair of us to criticize them for daring to have a female name when no such pressures exist on men?

    Who is more worthy of critique, the woman who wants to play LoL, or the asshole who thinks rape jokes are a reasonable way to shut a woman up?

    As a community, we have already answered this from an authoritarian perspective; we allow Riot to remove players we deem as violating our social code: this includes rape and holocaust and slavery jokes, as well as racial slurs. It does not include 'female names'.

    So what is wrong with the other approach: self-policing our behavior and calling out violations or our ethos?

  • #470 Dalzee

    Quote from GentlemanGustaf »

    dalzee, would you disagree that at least the statistical law (smaller subgroups have smaller groups of high-end players to a degree that is greater than proportional), given that it applies to distributions of talent, and not any game in particular, does apply to both games? I feel this is even the crux of your point: that the low number of high-elo women is simply a function of the low number of women in LoL. Is this not correct?

    I agree that there are many causes for the low number of women in Lol. for example, men are socialized to play competitive games more than women (for example, sports are becoming available to both over time, but it is certainly a process), but these societal factors are largely out of our control (we cannot  go back in time and tell parents to enroll their daughters in sports and buy them video games -- I should note that this claim is hyperbolic, lest velstella take it seriously).

    But what is painfully obvious is how much more this applies to some games (fighting games, FPS games, and MOBAs come to mind, and (coincidentally, these games have the worst communities as compared with games like starcraft or, more notably, WoW).

    I do not intend to claim that every woman who does not play LoL does so because of the community. But I would dare say it's a sizable margin. Female friends of mine (who similarly have the Gentleman tag) have considered changing their names to 'Lady ______', but have not as a result of having seen the harassment female players face. Is it not safe to say that many women who sign up for LoL with screennames that they've had for years quit the game when consistently harassed?

    And is it then fair of us to criticize them for daring to have a female name when no such pressures exist on men?

    Who is more worthy of critique, the woman who wants to play LoL, or the asshole who thinks rape jokes are a reasonable way to shut a woman up?

    As a community, we have already answered this from an authoritarian perspective; we allow Riot to remove players we deem as violating our social code: this includes rape and holocaust and slavery jokes, as well as racial slurs. It does not include 'female names'.

    So what is wrong with the other approach: self-policing our behavior and calling out violations or our ethos?

    For your first point, I do not disagree at all. It's a law and it can be applied to anything regardless of the qualifications needed. A smaller sample of any group will always give up a smaller number of high-end players: e.g. Latin LoL Players, Female LoL players, and whatever subgroup you want to add here. That's true and there's no way to contest it. 

    While it is a central point on my discussion, I would say that is a result on me not believing that harassment is the reason why the number of female players in LoL is so small. While I agree it might play some part on it, I think it's not the main reason for it and that's what I have been arguing this far. 

    I don't think its fair to criticize women simply for having a female name and of course, the one worthy of critique is the douche that makes jokes and harass simple for the fact that he wants to shut a woman up, it is not acceptable. Though, you also have to think that women sometimes "overreact" to certain behavior, I think it was on this thread that a girl said that whenever she was added as friend, or invited to a game, she felt like the guy wanted to "show her off as a dog to his friends" I mean really? How should we act then? If we act friendly and normal towards them, they feel "like a dog" if we act aggressive, then we are douches harassing them, I feel there's a "no win situation" on this matter.

    There's nothing wrong, I thoroughly agree with you that the community should be improved and violations should be pointed out, but even if it was achievable (which I don't believe it is) I don't think the Female LoL pro's will increase. We would have a better community, granted, but the high - end female players will not appear.

    Last edited by Dalzee: 6/15/2013 1:48:50 PM
  • #471 sushimkr

    Yeah, the republican/whatever thing was quite a bit off topic, but I just thought this was starting to look like the democrat vs republican arguments where neither side really ever intended to change their views regardless of what the other side said.

    In any case, I think that this isn't as much an issue in itself as it is just a manifestation of the gender imbalance that is inherent in human society due to evolutionary holdovers from monkeys where males dominate over females. I have no idea how to solve this, because it's pretty deeply ingrained into our genes, like racism. We had the whole black rights movement here in America, but did it eliminate racism? No. Do blacks still get prejudged even by the most liberal, most progressive of people? Probably. There's a bunch of prejudgment that goes on, and I don't think that we're ever going to get that to completely go away.

  • #472 GentlemanGustaf

    Yeah, I feel like we don't actually disagree; I commented as much that the numbers are most of the issue. I just think the numbers would be less glaring with a better community. They would still be significant.

    On that note, there's a clear difference between "friendly" and "like a dog"

    Some people specifically go out of their way to say 'I have this friend who plays LoL, and she's a girl! A GIRL!' You wouldn't do that about your friend who's a guy (and as far as I know, you wouldn't do this about your friend who's a girl. That doesn't mean that other people don't.

  • #473 Velstella

    Quote from Dalzee »

    Well, I think this is the first time I will actually side with you. I really don't have any reason to believe you are lying about your academic background, I myself have a Degree on Finance, but if asked to take a picture with my degree, I would tell you it's in a different country lol! So I wouldn't be able to provide said picture either. I do believe he has completely gone to a point where he's turning this into personal attacks instead of keeping on topic.

    Though, I do agree that while similar, Chess and LoL cannot be compared.

    My reason for not believing he has a degree in a field of formal logic is that his logic has been massively flawed all throughout this, clearly getting the degree did not sure up his debate skills, I can't imagine coming out of such an environment and then still using such blatantly fallacious logic. I mean surely he has the logical fallacies memorized to some extent, I'm surprised his mind doesn't scream at him when he starts using one, mine does, though it doesn't always stop me, but I'm not nearly so bad as he is, with a 75%+ fallacious comment rate. He probably does have the degree, it just doesn't mean anything since he clearly doesn't use the knowledge garnered from said degree to assist him in these debates. I'd LOVE more than anything to see what his professors would have to say about this post!

  • #475 Forfeitish

    Quote from Velstella »

    Quote from Dalzee »

    Well, I think this is the first time I will actually side with you. I really don't have any reason to believe you are lying about your academic background, I myself have a Degree on Finance, but if asked to take a picture with my degree, I would tell you it's in a different country lol! So I wouldn't be able to provide said picture either. I do believe he has completely gone to a point where he's turning this into personal attacks instead of keeping on topic.

    Though, I do agree that while similar, Chess and LoL cannot be compared.

    My reason for not believing he has a degree in a field of formal logic is that his logic has been massively flawed all throughout this, clearly getting the degree did not sure up his debate skills, I can't imagine coming out of such an environment and then still using such blatantly fallacious logic. I mean surely he has the logical fallacies memorized to some extent, I'm surprised his mind doesn't scream at him when he starts using one, mine does, though it doesn't always stop me, but I'm not nearly so bad as he is, with a 75%+ fallacious comment rate. He probably does have the degree, it just doesn't mean anything since he clearly doesn't use the knowledge garnered from said degree to assist him in these debates. I'd LOVE more than anything to see what his professors would have to say about this post!

    I'm sure his professors would question why he spent so much time arguing with someone who acts like a petulant child.

    Somewhere along the line you stopped even trying to use that bit of grey matter situated three feet above your ass and instead reverted to name calling and personal attacks. You are a joke, if you had pulled any of these stunts in a real debate you would have been tossed by the judges.

  • #476 LittleDevilish

    Is it just me Velstella or are you completely misinterpreting his post? As far as I can see he doesnt say women are "Too emotionally weak". As far as I can see he is arguing that people who play games play games for fun and people who dont get that fun are more inclined to leave because they are there because they WANT fun. Male gamers drop out of LoL every day because of the foul soloqueue mentality within LoL. I have had the 4 males in an old team of mine all quit the team (and the game) over the christmas holidays just because they had enough of playing with soloqueue trolls.

     

    As far as I can see he is not saying "women can not handle trolls" he is saying that they shouldnt have to, because they are not the ones that created the problem.

    As far as the 'dont make sexist jokes' I dont know if he meant it in a 'never make a joke to your female friend' way, I mean, he could just as well have meant something like 'well jokes are often misunderstood if they are made from strangers to strangers so if you dont personally know a girl (which in generally goes for 'a person') well, then dont make jokes she could misunderstand. Which is a completely sensible opinion as it is generally known that strangers interpret jokes wrong easily.

    I think you are wrongly understanding or interpreting his posts, cause I no where see him saying that women are weak, just that they shouldnt have to be 'forced' to be strong. I do think GentlemanGustaf is being a bit too appologetic for why women are not in the pro scene as much as men. But I can totally imagine that he has a point saying in his post that 'connections mean everything' and women might be less inclined to get or make use of good connections. Now this is not science, and I cant prove it to you, but I have personally experienced this. I know a few high level players but I am always very careful about how often I play with them or in what way I treat them simply because I dont want anyone getting the wrong immage of me. Is that naive of me in 'the internet world' to try to make people like me? Sure. Probably. Im not that an experienced gamer, this is my first Moba (and I havent played shooters before or anything of the likes) so for me it had to first of all be a realisation that in games its aparently normal to curse the shit out of eachother (cuz, you know, in RL we kinda keep it more civilized) but sure, I'm slowly over time making that adaption and becoming the 'strong female' you claim all women are that dont care what others think about them. Doesnt mean that I like my friends making comments about how I 'only play with person x because hes high Elo' or saying 'I just want to be treated differently because Im a woman'. Or that I enjoy being called he all the time and having someone make a fuss out of it if I correct it.

    In any 'political world' or 'sports' or any place you like to refference where there is smacktalk and racism/sexism/whateverism, anyone has the right to fight against it and try and change it, and thats what Gentleman Gustaf is doing, why is that so horribly bad? Women have battled sexism before, as you say, are you gonna tell the feminists that they were wrong for fighting for other women? Are you gonna tell me that if feminists asked men to not disciminate other women that they were calling those other women weak?

    Edit: I btw dont think joking or acting awkward towards women is in any way something that stops us from gaining Elo, I make kitchen jokes all the time and if someone acts awkward towards me its just funny/silly and I dont care about it. There's only one thing I care about, and that is whether people see me as a "gamergurrrrl" or not and unfortunately thanks to the image that certain women and certain men have created of women on the internet thats an image that even amongst my closer friends still sometimes pops into their heads when they cant immediately explain my behavior at a certain point in time.

    Last edited by LittleDevilish: 6/15/2013 7:09:41 PM
  • #306 Nakhan

    Your article is about how to change the fact that there are no Pro LoL women.  While a number of your points show how some women are held back, you failed to properly talk about the largest factor.

    You state: "As such, we should focus on the reasons why fewer women are drawn to computer games, and why fewer female players might play LoL competitively."  And then you failed to address this statement again.

    We know there are fewer women than men in LoL.  Riot even stated it is a 9 to 1 ratio of men to women.  This could be for a number of reasons.  Women seem to not to like computer games (compared to men), women don't want to do the same thing again and again (compared to men), or possibly women may find LoL boring (compared to men).  I don't know the entire list of reasons, but these seem like factors that far outweigh the sexism reasons.  

    Further, look at the women who do play LoL.  Many (most?) joined just to play for fun, or to play with certain friends, and will never desire to play competitively.  When I first played LoL, I had no desire to become the best, I played just to have fun.  It wasn't until much later that I discovered an interest in watching pros play, and I still have no desire to play til I'm that good.  It is possible that the percentage of women who join and have no desire to play competitively is greater than the percentage for men.

    So, we understand that there are far fewer women who even want to play LoL, and there are even fewer who desire to play competitively.  We've cut our numbers down drastically, and we haven't even gotten to sexism.  While it is a factor, and does need to be addressed, we need to focus on the larger factors first.  Some possible solutions could be to attract more women to computer gaming (ignoring the community part of gaming), increase the number of women interested in LoL, or entice women to play competitively.

    Or, you could rename your article to: Sexism in LoL - How do we avoid it.

  • #307 GentlemanGustaf

    I think the implication is that the shitty community is what makes there be way fewer female players.

  • #313 Velstella

    Gentleman, this clearly isn't the case, as other posters have pointed out, these games are designed for men, by men, for male skill sets and interests. The games are sexist, so are many of the gaming communities, but in the "esports" that don't even have communities, women STILL don't show in pro leagues. Obviously sexism is to blame, it's just free market sexism, not community sexism.

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