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Season 3 Changes Discussion: Penetration is vicious!

 

Season 3 Changes Discussion: Penetration is vicious!

     Phreak recently announced that one of their planned changes for season 3 is to have percentage penetration apply before flat penetration.  My immediate reaction was "Wait, what?  You serious?"  That is a pretty big change to the damage formula for League.  Now, this can all change due to item changes they plan to implement, but I will use current items to explain why this is a pretty big change and why it could lead some serious pain for some people.

That looks painful!

How it works now

      Time for a little review. The damage formula for League of legends is this:

     Currently, the way the penetration works is that you reduce the stat first by flat, then by percentage.  To illustrate, lets do some quick math.

Mage: Haunting Guise, Sorc Shoes, Void Staff and magic mastery, attacking a 100 MR Carry. 

(100 MR - 20 (Haunting Guise) - 20 (Sorc Shoes)) x .5 (Void Staff + Mastery) = 30 MR, which gives 23% damage reduction from our damage.  23% reduction is nothing to scoff at, and being percentage reduction, it matters more, the more damage you do.  

Because of how it works now, you cannot easily reduce someone down to 0 defenses easily.  It can only be done if they are already at 0 with flat penetration alone, as you take a percentage of the remaining.  So even if you had their MR down to 1, it will not reach 0 through a Void Staff.  

How it will work in Season 3

     Now how it works in season 3 is interesting.  Lets take our same setup:

Mage: Haunting Guise, Sorc Shoes, Void Staff and magic mastery, attacking a 100 MR Carry. 

(100 MR x .5 (Void Staff and Mastery) - 20 (Haunting Guise) - 20 (Sorc Shoes) = 10 MR or 9% Damage reduction. 

The exact same build from season 2 gets an effective 14% Damage increase!  Now the percentage reduction will always apply to the number you want it too (The bigger one!) and have your flat reduction apply to the one you want (the smaller!) making both types of penetration more effective when paired together.  Why would Riot do this and what can we draw from their intentions knowing this change?

Making Burst Mages and Assassins Competitive

     Riot has stated that they are planning on making burst mages (Like Annie) a more competitive option over either sustained damage carries (karthus, ryze, Cassiopeia) or Utility mages (Zyra, Morgana, Anivia, Orianna).  I believe that the changes to the formula are designed to do just that.  While all damage dealers benefit from the change, Sustained damage carries need some defenses to keep their damage going, while burst mages are less concerned about that as they go in, blow something up and get out.  Even if a burst mage dies after unloading, does it matter?  They did their job.  I believe this is part of the intended change to make burst mages more lethal.  The same applies to Assassins as well, as I am sure the new itemization will give them similar benefits.

     Those that should be particularly afraid are glass cannon builds.  A single defensive item is now relatively easy to negate and bring your defenses down to 0.  Obviously this is focused somewhat on AD carries, but it applies to everyone as well.  Glass cannons will be hurt by burst mages and burst assassins more easily with this change.

The changes to itemization

     Now everything I wrote above is admittedly theory, grounded in season 2 items.  Come season 3, the numbers could change dramatically on the items but the change does benefit some champions more than others.  AD assassins are likely to see flat armor reduction items similar to the ones mages currently enjoy.  Making their burst damage so much more killer.  As a result of this new found burst, my suspicion is that either we will see cheaper defensive items to make up for the fact it is now possible to reach 0 defenses easier.  Or we will see an overall enhancement in offense as many classes get access to more dual purpose items like Maw, Phage and Abyssal. 

Conclusion

     I have no crystal ball to know exactly what will happen with season 3.  But when the company states it might change one of its basic damage formulas, I think we should start talking.  Personally, I am very excited for what is in store for Season 3.  It seems like they have really taken the time to overhaul a fundamental part of their game and that makes me happy as a player.  I look forward to learning the new items and figuring out will make my favorite champions more effective.  What does it all mean to you?  

 

        

 

 

 

 

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Comments

  • #74 nilof

    This is actually the formula that they used to have way back before they changed it to how it works now.

    This could make Yomuus(rushing brutalizer) a lot better than it is currently when combined with a last whisper. It's a nice buff to Olaf and Darius with their built in Armor Pen.

    It will also make Haunting Guise absolutely insane to the point where rushing Guise+Sorcs+Void staff would be a pretty strong build.

     

    Do you know if reduction got changed too? That would make Black Cleaver pretty good on Xin and Kayle with their easily applied %Armor reduction and autoattack reliance.

     

    Is there a link to Phreak's statement?

    Last edited by nilof on 11/1/2012 8:51:09 PM
  • #75 MerryLane

    Quote from nilof »

    This is actually the formula that they used to have way back before they changed it to how it works now.

    This could make Yomuus(rushing brutalizer) a lot better than it is currently when combined with a last whisper. It's a nice buff to Olaf and Darius with their built in Armor Pen.

    It will also make Haunting Guise absolutely insane to the point where rushing Guise+Sorcs+Void staff would be a pretty strong build.

     

    Do you know if reduction got changed too? That would make Black Cleaver pretty good on Xin and Kayle with their easily applied %Armor reduction and autoattack reliance.

    Hm, isn't the reduction of armor from BC ALWAYS applied before the pct arp?

  • #76 monkyyy

    who can see a happy world where nidelee has 60% magic pen then stacks ap like no tomorrow <3

  • #77 Gameguy301

    youd get the AP first and the magic pen next cause penetration does no good if you do no damage to start with. im sure thats what you meant but you never know ive seen a number of voidstaff rushes in my games recently and im ripping my hair out.

    Last edited by Gameguy301 on 11/2/2012 2:46:01 PM
  • #78 monkyyy

    are u sure? i thought haunting guise was a very very strong mid game item which u could buy around the time nidalee can start roamong

  • #68 lieto

    Good change i guess. With chalice becoming more popular on a lot of mages i stopped getting sorc shoes and went for tabis or mercs with void staff as 4th item.

  • #62 monkyyy

    am i the only one hoping they break everything, so the current meta completely dies?

  • #63 MerryLane

    Yes u are.

  • #67 Xyltin

    There will be a lot of changes to the meta, but a lot will probably stay.

    Same:
    - AP mid (maybe some more assassins mid like Talon)
    - ADC + Support (0 CS)
    - You will still need tanks or bruisers. But with more CC like Amumu or Shen than ones that take dmg like Darius and tank cause they are able to deal dmg

    Changes:
    - S1 jungle (Trundle, Trynda, ... will come back and jungling will be a bit more focused on farming again; or better said: a jungler needs to balance his farming and ganking better).
    that means that carry junglers will be back.
    - Some ADC or AP champs will probably be able to use the top lane solo. Also assassins will be more useful there. Less ganks, more dmg, less resistances. (Gragas and Corki are two that could go top).
    - new way for support champs to get gold (=> stronger support champs)
    - Item and mastery/rune changes (that will have a huge impact and cause Riot didn't show any changes yet, it will be hard to predict the outcome).

  • #69 MerryLane

    Quote from Xyltin »

    There will be a lot of changes to the meta, but a lot will probably stay.
     [...]

    We can't knoooooow ...

    Anything at allllll ...

    We know nothing about the incoming changes, maybe the changes they annouced will be ridiculously not changing at all the game (like idk, adding two gold for each blue wraith killed as a change to the jungle) ...

    So please don't predict anything ^^ Coz we could see the total opposite of your predictions.

  • #70 Xyltin

    I don't have to predict much. Riot talked a lot about their plans and what the goals are.
    In the jungle they want to make the single creeps stronger, to prevent none junglers to farm them very fast. Also and increase in XP and gold mid and late game together with longer spawn times. They want carry junglers and single target junglers to come back (Udyr, Trundle, WW, ...). Also a new items for junglers.
    That all is is a step back into S1 jungle, while some new features like the HP and Mana gain from camps and also the banking system will probably stay (that is a prediction; while the step back closer to the S1 jungle was already announced).

    That defensive stats are going to be more expensive and that the penetration system changes back to S1 (to help burst casters and assassin and hurt DPS casters and bruisers) got also already mentioned (Phreak).

    New item for bruisers and AD-casters and also AP burst champs and a lot of item changes to make the ADC itemization better and not as strong late game.
    Possible new On-Hit builds on champs like Kayle or Kog with their new items.

    the only thing that is really hard to talk about are runes and mastery changes, cause the only goals that riot talked about were:
    - more rune variety
    - Defensive masteries weaker for laning/trading (top lane)
    - new gold income for supports

  • #64 monkyyy

    awwwwwww ;__;

  • #72 Gameguy301

    predicting not much will change is actualy a safe bet,

    APs go mid because casters get the most out of leveling up, the base damage on spells is very high and getting that damage up fast is priority number one, mages are strongest early game thanks to aforementioned base damage on spells, mages tend to have few escapes or defensive cooldowns, combines with high burst damage the center lane is the shortest and safest. the power of the AP mid in the early mid game puts them in a central location for defending against jungle invades, and roaming the map for ganks. mid lane is closest to blue buff.

    top laners go top because being solo in the longest lane is incredibly dangerous, the ability to simply not die is important, the precansts of a top laner locks his opponent into the lane aswell, you need people who can lane for extended peroids of time, and dominate their opponent if they dont keep up, pushing hard when your opponent leaves lane is also a bonus.

    carries scale less per level but scale well with items a safe place that guarantees gold income is best, supports scale little with anything and can safely sacrifice CS for their carry and do not mind shareing exp, dragon is an early game objective obtainable by a handful of people, haveing two people in bottom lane gives you a stronger control of the dragon pit. and makes it harder to kill the ADC, disposable income makes warding for the carry easy, once again insureing a safe place to farm your carry.

    jungleing provides a second solo lane for your team, a roaming ganker, buff control, dragon / baron control, ward/oracle control, this alone is enouph to warrant a jungler but theirs more. if only one team has a jungler, they can take both jungles to themselves and out level and outfarm even solo laners, essentially becoming a game carrying Juggernaut.

    the season 3 changes would have to jumble the stregnths and weaknesses of each role to shake this up.

    Last edited by Gameguy301 on 11/1/2012 3:41:35 PM
  • #59 guy420

    >tfw guardian angel

    They will make its passive non unique so "tanks" can get 5.

  • #50 Xyltin

    As a result of this new found burst, my suspicion is that either we will see cheaper defensive items to make up for the fact it is now possible to reach 0 defenses easier.

    Riot said the opposite: Defensive stats are going to be more expensive.

    That will probably lead to glass canon vs glass canon if they are not careful with the penetration change.

    50 flat + 50% penetration will make every AD carry take 100% more dmg (they get around 100 Armor late game), while other champs with 200 Armor will also take 100% more dmg.

    The important thing here, that everybody can test:
    - Increase the flat value and reduce the % by the same amount => same dmg vs 100 Armor but less dmg vs 200

    - Reduce the flat value and increase the % by the same amount => same dmg vs 100 Armor but more dmg vs 200 Armor

    I think riot has to reduce the flat values to never reach 50 with runes + masteries + items (it should be possible, but not with 2-3 flat ArPen items)
    At the same time they should increase the % value (not with one item, but by increaseing the amount of items).

    Last edited by Xyltin on 10/30/2012 11:28:09 AM
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