The New Jungle: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

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Hello there summoners, Gentleman Gustaf here to give you the lowdown on the new jungle! Riot has made sweeping changes to the game, introducing new items, revamping masteries, adjusting penetration formulas, changing jungle monsters, and adding a new jungling item tree to the game. So where has this left junglers? Well, when last we saw junglers, they had 4 main jobs.

  1. Early ganks: level 3 ganks with double buff had become standard, and were often devastating, especially for top lane.
  2. Oracle's Elixir ward clearing
  3. Tank Aura items (Aegis + Randuin's on Bruisers, Aegis + Frozen Heart on Tanks)
  4. Initiation/Peel/Dive.

Ultimately, Riot decided that the amount of influence they were able to have early in the game with pressure ganks and the power of ward clearing was too much, whereas the power they had late game with low-economy builds was too low. Many of the changes were targeted at these problems, and some of these changes have been good (for junglers) others have been bad (for junglers) and others have been ugly (force you to make lose-lose choices).

 

The Problem

Jungling in Season 2 had gotten somewhat stale (according to some); you take your buffs and then you want to put some early pressure on lanes and, hey, you probably don't get the kill, but you certainly set your lane up to get a nice 5 cs lead later on, so that's nice. And now that you're at 30% health, you're pretty much stuck clearing or going back, but you don't have enough money for a gold item, so I guess you'll clear low and hope you don't invade, or go back for no reason. In the meantime, if you ganked after only 1 buff, their jungler just took your other buff, so I hope you did a level 3 gank with double buff and a smiteless leash or you're just screwed for experience and gold. So whichever you choose, now you have your philo or your HoG, so now what?

Well, you pressure the lanes, but you feel like your ganks aren't dangerous because you might get killed and fall farther behind? So you try to clear the jungle to catch up, so you go to the blue and take it - well, you give that to mid, (don't worry, he lets you have the first one because he understands that you need that experience). Anyway, by the time you get to your wolves, top has cleared them since his lane was pushed out, so you swing onto the wraiths, but mid is taking them because blue buff, so why not? So you bounce to red and take that - don't worry bro, your AD Carry won't need it at least until the next one, and since you're jungle Amumu/Maokai, it's super good on you - but no golems for you because bot lane took those, and actually, can he have that red because it will help his lane trades? But you stood near those buffs as they died, so you hit level 6, and you realize that your camps are worth so little gold (0, in fact, since you can't take them) that it's time to get back to ganking and helping your lanes.

Checking each lane, you see that they're warded up tight, so instead of getting your second gold item, you get an Oracle's Elixir and plan to get Mobi boots so you can have OP ganks. So you clear wards and people back off, and you drop into your jungle to farm - actually, screw that, you don't want to hurt your lane's farm, because how are they supposed to get 150 cs in 20 minutes without taking your jungle camps while the lane is pushed to their tower? So you go back to gank, but they've re-warded, so you kill some wards and 'hey! you've actually made about 150 gold from ward kills! this could be - oh shit, you just got caught and killed because you had no tankiness. Well, you've almost got 400 gold, so let's go clear some camps again - right, they've all been knocked down. That's ok, walking around the jungle with your gold item got you enough gold to buy another Oracles' Elixir...although you could save up for a gold item.

So you keep playing whack-a-mole with wards and maybe the occasional jungle camp and every once in awhile, somebody doesn't run when their team pings you and you hand another assist off to your lane. So now it's the 20 minute mark and you've managed to scrape together enough gold for an item, so you're pretty OP, or at least, your team is, since you got a tanky aura for them, right? I'm really digging that Aegis. That's like 2k gold; you must be rolling in the bank, so it's time to pick up another Oracle's Elixir! You're almost as tanky as top, so you should get it, because - well because he doesn't really want to; he's trying to decide what to get: he has Trinity Force and Guardian Angel, so there's Sunfire Cape or there's Wit's End or there's Frozen Heart and it's such a hard choice. So it's time for team fights, and I hope you fed your team well because here goes the fight, and I think you CC'd somebody to start the fight and...well, you're dead, but your graves looks like he's doing well; you think you may win this team fight aaaand - awww, their Ezreal beat out your Graves, but he's the only one left alive at least. You were dead, but you picked up the assist on the first guy, so get another Oracle's Elixir and do that again and again until the game ends!

Now, we know that it's not all risk: if you get those early ganks, you snowball! Not yourself, silly, you snowball your lanes. To snowball, you need other sources of gold, and, please, you don't have those. But you can revel in the satisfaction of a job well done and let your team win for you now! And nothing says fun like letting your team win for you! So when you initiate, you might not die (you will) but at least your Graves will beat out their Ezreal and you'll win the teamfight!

 

You may notice a slightly sarcastic or negative tone in the above description. This is not because I feel negatively about the Season 2 jungle. I actually loved the Season 2 jungle, and I love playing tanks and CC monkeys. I find few things more satisfying than initiating a team fight that we win, regardless of whether or not I die. As a tank, I hope I die first, because it means my team is feeding them their teeth while they beat me up. But I think a lot of players were frustrated with the role, and that's part of what prompted Riot to make changes.

In response, Riot said something like the following:

I've got a a new offer for you! Before, you were having to gank lanes all the time, which was high risk,and if it didn't pay off, you fell behind in gold. Plus, the other jungler would gank lanes, too, so if you failed, your lane would need you to come back in a bit to make up for their successful gank. And that sucked, right? It felt like you were on permanent support duty, and when you ganked, sometimes the laner would kill you anyway, because you were so squishy. So we've got some changes for you. But first, just so we're clear, your complaints are:

  1. Laners take all of your camps.
  2. As a result, you have no gold, so you're forced to get lots of gold items and gank constantly.
  3. On top of that, wards shut you down, so you're spamming Oracle's Elixirs.

Now of course, these weren't problems JUST for junglers. The heavy ganking combined with oracle's elixirs made laning very unsafe at key points in the game, and Oracle's Elixir stacking wasn't so much a jungler problem, but an arms race against laners' wards. So how has Riot worked on these problems?

The Good

More gold

Jungle gold is now distributed a bit differently (more on big minions, and less on the wraiths). And after 11 minutes into the game, the gold values are higher than in the old jungle, so you get more gold! On top of that, camps are now harder to kill, so laners are less likely to mooch off of them early! You also get more ambient gold. This is true of both laners and junglers, but it affects junglers, with their smaller gold pool, more. Finally, the movement speed changes mean that junglers don't necessarily need to start boots, because with masteries and runes itemized for speed, they're almost as fast as laners with boots. This lack of early investment into boots lets them spend their money elsewhere.

New Items

Tank itemization diversity grew a lot with this patch. Have you ever had 2 champions on your team who wanted a Frozen Heart for the CDR and Mana, but you didn't want to waste the aura? No worries, now one of them can pick up Frozen Fist, for a little more damage! Hate all of the big components in building Randuin's? It now builds out of 2 cloth armors! Aegis of the Legion, a jungle favorite, got a late game upgrade!

Then there's Spirit Stone and all of its upgrades. Before, if you wanted more clearspeed, you either picked up a Wriggle's or you built damage, both pretty unappealing to an AP or a tank. Now, you can get a Spirit Stone for mana/health regen and more minion damage. From there, Spirit Stone can be upgraded to make you a better mage (AP/CDR/Spell Vamp), tank (Health/Armor/Tenacity), or dps (AD/true damage dot).

Finally, we come to Sightstone, which is, in my opinion, the best item in this release, and will eventually need nerfs (maybe at least making wards killed by Sightstone give 25 gold) or buffs to counter-items (like Oracle's Elixirs). It gives you access to enough wards to cover the easy (mid) entrances to your jungle, and if your team is already warding, allows you to easily ward to counter-jungle. On top of that, it is crazy combined with Wriggle's on Lee Sin, who will never again want for a ward to dash to.

The Bad

Maybe not more gold

Remember that extra gold you were getting? Well, it turns out that you now need to dump 300 gold into an item that just gives you clear speed equal to Season 2. But at least you have a huge minion killing advantage, so the lanes don't steal your camps? Well, problem is, as a tank/bruiser, you actually kill camps slower than people who build damage. So mid-late game, your carries do more damage to minions even despite your bonus, unless you're ballsy enough to build dps on a melee champion. Solution? Stack BC's because they're OP. Creative players like Chaox have been running bot lanes that include champions like Lulu/Zyra/Ashe who can still clear the golems at level 1 just fine. By the time the jungle gold starts to surpass that of Season 2, the laners are already clearing your camps with some regularity. And the boots you don't need to get? It's not so much that you don't NEED to get them, and more it's that you'll die if you start with them instead of machete on most junglers. Worse, there's no more HoG, so some junglers are left entirely without a gold item to get (although Sightstone more than makes up for HoG).

So considering that jungle tanks want boots + HoG + Philo + Aegis + Glacial, and jungle bruisers want boots + HoG + Aegis + Phage, your jungle clearing item basically phases out your non-Aegis item, Sightstone replaces HoG. So if you're a jungler who loved Glacial/Phage, you're pretty sad. If you're not, you might feel ok about the trade until you think about how much the minion damage cost you, and guess about 750 gold. Isn't that the ambient gold increase for a 40 minute game?

Speaking of gold items, let's talk about Philosopher's Stone. Now, if you choose to get it on a jungle tank, you're stacking it with Spirit Stone for HOLY REGEN BATMAN. Good luck having real stats in the first 5 minutes of the game. If you don't need Shurelia's, no big deal, just skip Philosopher's Stone. But if you do (Skarner), you're basically set to choose between clear speed and mid-game items you need.

And speaking of Spirit Stone, what if you don't like the stats the upgrades give you?

But Gentleman Gustaf, who doesn't like Health/Armor on tanks? Or AD + a dot on AD champs? or Spell Vamp/CDR?

I will admit to really liking the AD and AP Spirit Stones. What the latter has done to Fiddlesticks is beautiful. And honestly, the tank one is pretty good on most tanks. That just leaves one of my favorite champions in the game: Skarner. Skarner LIVES for CDR, and I can't begin to imagine cutting Glacial Shroud from his build.

Remember how I said Sightstone was good? Well it really is good enough that I would expect to see at least 2 per game (jungle/support), and I would also like to see 1 top. I wouldn't even entirely be surprised to see one mid; triple gold was a brief craze mid, why not double gold plus free wards? I've been in games with 4 Sightstones as a jungler, and let's just say ganking gets a little bit harder when everybody keeps their lane bush and their jungle-access bush warded. If each team has 3 sightstones and just replaces wards as they go down, ganking becomes very, very hard. This has enough of an effect that, to quote Stonewall (about Mundo):

Stonewall

I've seen players just grab a cloth armor on him (with armor quints too) and grab a quick doran's shield and just farm all day. They don't even gank much - they just farm and stack ruby crystals which end up becoming ever item he wants.

To add to the Sightstone buff, Oracle’s Elixir was nerfed. And to add insult to injury, if you pick one up to combat Sightstone, you’ll soon find out that Sightstone wards only grant 10, instead of 25 gold per kill.

Ugly

The ugly news is this: there is nothing really wrong with most of the jungle changes. In fact, I think most changes implemented were quite fantastic. It's just that many of the changes were aimed at the same problem, and when you stack them, you fix the problem too hard. So we're going to have to make choices.

Sightstone is a really cool item for you. Oracle's Elixir really needed that nerf. But both together takes the toxic 'no wards are safe' situation we had in Season 2, and turns it into the equally toxic 'really, lanes have nothing to worry about ever if they know what a minimap is'.

Making jungler specific items for powering through a tankier jungle is a brilliant solution, but it locks junglers into very specific items which they may not really benefit from, just to clear. Upgrading all of the jungle tanks old items, but then mandating that they get another item that does a similar (but not as good) makes me feel like I'm being taunted by Riot.

Giving you more gold is great. Forcing you to dump most of it into minion only stats to jungle is not. On top of that, resistances have gotten more expensive, while damage has gotten cheaper. So have fun being a tank.

Nerfing your early game and buffing your late game slightly isn't really a fair trade, because it was due to that early game (and early gold items) that you had a late game at all!

AD junglers seem to come away the clear winners, with a few exceptions, and I think this is for four reasons:

  1. Fewer sustain issues. AD junglers have lifesteal and are often manaless.
  2. Machete synergy. The more a champions kit is invested in damage, the more they loves machete: anybody who has a lot invested in shields (Skarner/Nautilus), heals (Maokai/Cho), or sheer tankiness benefits less from Machete. On the other hand, anybody who just brute forces through the jungle (Shyvana/Mundo/Darius) scales extremely well with Machete.
  3. Warding. Tank junglers are more easily counter-jungled, worse duelists, and slower clearers. So they're exactly the sort of junglers who would benefit more from an early sightstone. However, they're exactly the champions who need the early mana sustain from Spirit/Philo Stone. Bruiser junglers, on the other hand, excel at invading and ruining the other jungler's day, and the early wards from sightstone allows them to do so even more aggressively.
  4. Black Cleaver is scary.

So what do I think about the new jungle? I like the idea of giving junglers more gold, and I agree that early ganks were too strong. But in execution, I'm not liking it all that much, and I feel like every game went too far.

The old jungle felt a lot like Tetris: you watched what was happening and going to happen, reacting with precision to be where you needed to make things work. And when you got a small edge, it felt like all of the pieces dropped into place and you got a little bit more ahead. You couldn't really control all of the pieces; sometimes they sucked, sometimes they were nothing but line pieces, but you did the best with what you had. But the new jungle, for me, feels like Futilitris; the pieces come down and you occasionally feel like you do something, but it doesn't make a difference in the long run, because even when you do get ahead, all you get is the ability to kill minions faster. You're competing against the other jungler, because everybody else will be ahead of you unless you're beyond fed.

I'd like to see a few small changes.

  1. A way (items/runes/masteries) to make jungle mobs give junglers more gold would be fantastic. Barring that, simply making the increase in damage due to Machete beat out the tankiness increase of the jungle mobs would be nice.
  2. Stacking Philosopher's and Spirit Stone is awkward. I'm not really sure how you solve that. But you can't put minion damage on Philosopher's Stone (laners would love you), and you can't put gold on Spirit Stone without adjusting some stats.
  3. Sightstone wards need to give 25 gold. Oracle's Elixir could maybe use a buff, too.

What's coming from here on out?

I have two plans for the next few weeks of posts. First, I'll be revisiting my AD Carry work. To those of you who are thinking 'don't you just have to plug in the new items and penetration, and shouldn't that take no time?' you're pretty much correct. I'll still be splitting the series up into groups of AD Carries to keep posts manageable. Second, if you've followed other posts in this thread, you'll know that Nasus is my favorite champion ever, and I also happen to think he benefits a lot from the Season 3 changes, so I'll be doing a guide on him.

 


 For more of my work:

-- Find old posts @ the RoG forums and new posts every Wednesday (3 PM) and Sunday (9 AM).

-- Feel free to find me in the "A DIFFerent View" chatroom on the NA server.
-- Contact me at [email protected]
-- Follow me on Facebook and Youtube for updates on all of my new articles, videos, and streaming.


 Song of the Day

(I know it's a repeat, but it's so fitting)

 

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Comments

  • #59 Faren22

    I think Amumu would appreciate Futilitris. 

  • #69 K0stra

    Because he likes to cry?

     

  • #56 sgtcolon

    I think the current answer to these woes is to play Wriggles junglers again. They seem to have significantly improved again for S3.

  • #55 jim1608

    Also, StoneWall, what are your thoughts on Jungle Yi now with the PBE change on his Q?

  • #67 Douggie

    A) He's not Stonewall

    B) Stonewall has released a video regarding the changes to Yi's Alpha Strike on YouTube. Hint: it's good

  • #68 MerryLane

    B) From what I understood, the buff to alpha strike isn't miraculous with its numbers.
    Oh and they "nerfed" yi's ultimate, now the reset only works when your ultimate is running, not permanently once you are six.
    So basically, it was a nerf.

  • #71 Douggie

    It's a solid buff to Alpha Strike and has lead to faster clear times. I have tested it and it cause more overall damage to camps even with RNG. Just because the numbers don't look big on paper doesn't mean they don't have a big impact.

    The CD refresh when Highlander is active has always been and I can't find a time when it wasn't like that. If there was, it's a bug. Currently that's how it works on live.

  • #72 MerryLane

    His clear time was improved, of course.
    But the buff, when you withdraw the "nerf due to S3 new jungle", isn't that miraculous. It's a bit better than what yi could do in S2 jungle. It's not like he can jungle 30 seconds faster than the fastest actual jungler, you see.
    And it still doesn't make yi a "good" champion.

    The cd refresh won't work anymore if you didn't trigger your ultimate.
    It means that now you need to have it activated (the "can't be slowed", more MS and AS and stuff ...) unlike before when you didn't need your ultimate running for all your spells to be refreshed on kills/assists.

    This basically means that if you screw a bit your timing with your ultimate (it just runs off when u get a kill) you won't get the refreshes, and thus it can lead to failures that he didn't have before.
    It's even more important if you played AP yi, if you don't get your Q and W refreshed, your optimal damage output in fights turns into zero.
    And considering yi is a squishy assassinating thing that often needs to go back in and off of fights, waiting for the best moment to spam his spells, you can often miss your engage, turning on your R too soon, before backing off because you just seen the situation isn't good anymore, and thus wasting any possible good teamfight before 30/60 seconds.

  • #54 jim1608

    I think that the jungle specific items ruined the jungle. Most of my friends don't like the new jungle, so today I played over 10 games as a jungler in a row with them. I played damage, tanks, bruisers and CC bot junglers today. (Amumu, Jax, Volibear, Rengar, etc...) I hadn't noticed before, but the new jungle kinda sucks.

    It's great that you have more gold on the jungle. Unfortunately the 475 gold you get at lv 1 is wasted with an item that doesn't scale at all and doesn't help you gank OR tank OR do anything at all in the game.

    It's 475 gold wasted on Machete and pots just so you can get gold to get more items to get more gold. You don't gank anymore and if you do, you gank as if you had no items at all, so you die from the sheer difference a Doran's make now.

    Also, Spirtstone tank upgrade overlaps with a lot of Tank items is is very expensive to do, not giving enough stats. Seriously? You won't get Philosopher's, you won't get Mercury because of Double tenacity and you have to upgrade a Giant's belt that could be used on far better items to get it.

    Also your lanes will still want as much ganks as they always did, so good luck staying in the jungle to farm for the extra gold. 

    The upgrades on the game were awesome and made if far better for everyone, but most junglers will hate it. Jungler became kind of as boring to play as supports were before, if not more. Since minions spawn at the same time the ambient gold pretty much only made lane get more gold than they did before, and making you waste money on futile items and nerfing Oracle while creating sightstone only made the difference between lane and jungle gold bigger.

    I figured the most interesting jungler now is Warwick, since he doesn't need Machete to jungle at all, so he can focus on doing actual items and getting actual ganks.

    Machete needs to scale better with tankier characters, maybe having the Tank upgrade deal MORE damage to monsters than the other upgrades and make Machete and have some actual use against players. Actually, make spirit stone an upgrade to Machete + Ruby Crystal. Would be MUCH better and be a scapegoat for the lack of Heart of Gold...

    I seriously think that instead of the machete we should have got MASTERIES that make you deal more damage to jungle monsters and others masteries focused on jungling. Maybe even a 4th tree focused on jungle utility... Machete... pfff, what a waste of money...

  • #73 OuterRaven

    Don't get the machete, have a way slower clearing speed than if you did, have way lower hp than if you did, have all your camps stolen right in front of you, get out leveled by the enemy jungler because he clears camps faster than you.

    You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

    Btw: Warwick's ganks pre level 6 are among the worst in the game, so good luck with that.

  • #74 MerryLane

    If you want to play jungle in S3, you have different "successful" schools.

    1)hardcore early junglers :
    Play lee-sin/shaco, screw the ennemies around through counter-jungling, babysitting and splitpushing. Wriggles is adviced on these.
    Do whatever you want, but try and snowball yourself and your team as much as you can early.

    2) cc machines :
    Maokai and Amumu are the example. First rule : you will never ever fight 1v1 anyone in any circumstances, even their support. Don't fight early (before 6) in the jungle or get yourself counter-ganked, you would die in a second.
    After that your role is to build spirit of the golem and other "effective hp" items, and compensate the fact you are comparatively underfed and underlvled to laners, with only tank items, and your cc to help your mates kill the ennemies.

    3) "I don't care of building damage anyway" junglers :
    Chogath and Darius (or even lee-sin) can be used this way. They have high base damage and are themselves important targets for the ennemy team.
    On the contrary to "suboptimal" (let s call it an exageration) junglers such as Xin, Jax, and others, ... You can really well build like the second category (spirit of the ancient golem and tanky items, maybe have a black cleaver or sth somewhere in your build), and because you deal a lot of aoe you grab assists/kills, while having "execute" moves, this means you can collect gold (and invest them in more tankyness) fast enough.
    The goal of these junglers is to compensate the fact the jungle is pretty bad in xp and gold, in tankyness, so they can do damage in fights without being melted (too fast) and lower the focus on your teammates.

    Other kind of junglers (xin, jax, nocturne, riven, warwick, diana, ... idk ...) can be really viable and should follow different builds, but they aren't as optimal. Unless they get overfed, which is unlikely because to be overfed you needa take risks, and taking risks when you are by definition underfed due to the state of the jungle, often helps more the ennemies than yourself.
    And you "always" end up taking the gold from your laners that would benefit more than you, without adding any of the advantage the three categories above give to their team.

    Last edited by MerryLane: 12/11/2012 6:18:53 PM
  • #75 registermyaccount

    I find Nocturne and Diana really viable actually. The new AP spirit stone upgrade, whatever its called, its awesome on Diana, the extra gold really helps her out, and she's just as fast and just as healthy in the new jungle as in the old one.

    Nocturne, with the addition of Sightstone, people have so many wards now. Some tops and junglers even get it too, so that there's no way you can enter a lane for a normal jungler to gank normally unless you go and clear all of those wards, which costs gold on your part. If you're Noct, you just press R.

  • #76 MerryLane

    Sure Nocturne and Diana are really viable. They would be the tier 2, right after those I listed, for their advantages.

    But when you see what the jungle became, Noc and Diana are a bit too squishy and needa build too much damage on top of that, and they "always" end up underfarmed and underlvled next to the laners, which by opposition melt them really fast.
    (unless you get overfed, and there you'd prolly win with any other jungler, or you "stole" your laners a bit too much, which is bad for the success rate)

  • #77 OuterRaven

    You should only be picking Noc or Diana if your team needs another damage source. If your top laner is Malphite, for example, it's better for your team if Noc or Diana were taking the kills instead of Malphite.

    And Nocturne is definitely a tier 1 jungler. His clear speed is very good, he can finish his 1st clear with almost full hp with a few pots left and he has one of the strongest ganks in the game once he gets to level 6 because he can bypass wards, so he's actually one of the few ganking junglers who is still viable even though everyone's getting ruby sightstone now.

    Plus, he doesn't need expensive items to do his job. Wriggle's, Wit's End and Frozen Mallet gives him all the damage, sustain and sticking power he needs to do his job, he gets so much ad from his Q and so much atk speed from his w he can pretty much 1v1 everyone except late game carries like Vayne.

  • #78 WatchingHowie

    Quote from MerryLane »

    2) cc machines :
    Maokai and Amumu are the example. First rule : you will never ever fight 1v1 anyone in any circumstances, even their support. Don't fight early (before 6) in the jungle or get yourself counter-ganked, you would die in a second.
    After that your role is to build spirit of the golem and other "effective hp" items, and compensate the fact you are comparatively underfed and underlvled to laners, with only tank items, and your cc to help your mates kill the ennemies.

    I learnt this the hard way, Maokai feels so weak!

    Last edited by WatchingHowie: 12/12/2012 7:17:19 AM
  • #79 MerryLane

    Quote from OuterRaven »

    You should only be picking Noc or Diana if your team needs another damage source. If your top laner is Malphite, for example, it's better for your team if Noc or Diana were taking the kills instead of Malphite.

    And Nocturne is definitely a tier 1 jungler. His clear speed is very good, he can finish his 1st clear with almost full hp with a few pots left and he has one of the strongest ganks in the game once he gets to level 6 because he can bypass wards, so he's actually one of the few ganking junglers who is still viable even though everyone's getting ruby sightstone now.

    Plus, he doesn't need expensive items to do his job. Wriggle's, Wit's End and Frozen Mallet gives him all the damage, sustain and sticking power he needs to do his job, he gets so much ad from his Q and so much atk speed from his w he can pretty much 1v1 everyone except late game carries like Vayne.

    Playing this kind of jungler with this kind of build, is too often "meh".
    You really feel useful when you pull off good things, but since you are by definition underfarmed and underleveled, it's a bit like you played Yi ;
    All your damage becomes useless if you are caught and "bursted down"
    (but you don't really need to be focused actually, you would take a bit of aoe damage and one or two auto, to die)

    And sorry if I "laugh" at you, but by the time Nocturne gets wriggles, frozen mallet and wit's end, sorry but the ennemy ADC is full stuff with elixirs and the toplane has two warmogs and three sunfires to oppose you.

    Btw, I might sound stupid saying that, but I think wriggles is such a gold sink. It gives you really poor stats, and you don't really make use of the lifesteal in fights (considering you have approximately 1/100th of the necessary damage and "bulkyness" to do so)
    On loads of junglers even "AD heavy" such as Nocturne, I feel you are better off with the ancient golem. Imho for the price of the machete's upgrade, I prefer from far this 500ish hp, to a poor 10 pct lifesteal and 10 armor (exagerating). On top of that, only a few of champions that can't aoe clear the camps actually benefit a bit the madred for their clearing speed.

    Last edited by MerryLane: 12/12/2012 8:38:51 AM
  • #80 OuterRaven

    Well it depends on who you're playing against now doesn't it? I'm not high elo (not even close) but when I play Nocturne I actually get kills. People may say I should give them to my laners but hey I'm playing Nocturne for a reason and that is to do damage and I know for a fact that a fed Nocturne can carry his team.

    You seem to have the idea that jungler=underfarmed and underleveled every single game, and that is just not true. You see junglers snowball out of control all the time, even in tournaments. If I play as Noc, I get kills. If I get kills, I'm not underfarmed. 

    "...by the time Nocturne gets wriggles, frozen mallet and wit's end, sorry but the ennemy ADC is full stuff with elixirs and the toplane has two warmogs and three sunfires to oppose you." Unless your teammates are complete scrubs and you did absolutely nothing to help them, this doesn't happen.

    And comparing Noc to Yi? Ouch, that's a really unfair comparison, considering Yi doesn't have a spellshield that also gives AS, or a fear or a global vision debuff with one of the biggest gap closers in the game.

    About Wriggle's, Stonewall said that since the neutral monsters have a lot more hp, champs with AS steroids benefit a lot from Wriggle's as they can just tear through camps a lot faster and it also helps significantly in clearing Dragon and Baron. Oh, and don't forget the free ward.

    Almost forgot about this part: "but you don't really need to be focused actually, you would take a bit of aoe damage and one or two auto, to die." Again, Nocturne is not Yi and I don't know how the hell you're building him, but when I play him I can actually survive more than 3 seconds (maybe I'm just special?), so unless you're building him glass cannon, you're exagerating. A lot.

    Nocturne was my main jungler through half of S2, I know what I'm talking about when I say he's a tier 1 jungler.

  • #52 Pakaso

    Someone probably has already thought of this but what if smite gained a passive that increased gold from monsters, or damage to monsters? Then only junglers would gain the bonus and not be required to buy any specific item. true the champs that can jungle without smite, nunu, would lose a summoner spell but it would bring balance. Then those sneeky laners wouldnt be able to steal our gold.

  • #50 DarkSideCreo

    I miss Hog :( I didn't have much time to play last week, so I didn't test all of my junglers, but Lee is doing fine so far. Tried shaco with bots and in 1 game, he seems a lot better, with boxes tanking dmg and static shiv. I want to test my tanks with new tank items next, see what that comes to. Although, I've already felt the opness of new BC, scary stuff :(

  • #49 registermyaccount

    I have to say I'm pretty annoyed by the Machete. I hate the fact that you're pretty much forced to buy it as a starting item, or else you will die. In S2, the most common starts were boots, cloth, or regrowth, and some junglers were able to start Amp tome, or Long Sword, or something like that. Either way, it was really diverse, all of those starts gave you something unique: Amp tome/Sword lets you clear faster and can build into a good late game item, boots lets you gank better, cloth and regrowth both let you sustain well (5 pots if you start cloth), and one can build into an early gp10.

    However, in S3, its either Machete or die. And if you don't die, your clearing speeds will be so slow that Sona can counterjungle you. Sure, on some junglers like Warwick or Nocturne it can be a good start, but what about Fiddlesticks? What if you want start with a more advanced item (Long Sword/Amp tome) so you could rush a bigger item faster? What if you want to play a really sustained farm jungle (Regrowth)? What if you want to start with some legit stats instead of extra minion damage? NO. YOU START MACHETE OR DIE.

    Rant over, I pretty much think that nobody should be forced to buy anything. LoL is a fun and diverse game because you have so many options. In some games, you pretty much have to buy or upgrade this or that, there is literally no choice. While adding the Machete doesn't really restrict anything in the long run, you pretty much have to buy it as a start. That's what's annoying me about the new jungle.

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