AP Ratios: An Overview

I'm Gentleman Gustaf, and today, I'll be going with a slightly different style of post. Normally, my articles are about choices you should make. In this case, however, my post is more true to where I see my roots: information. My previous post prompted an argument about burst and damage, so I thought I'd make a quick chart of every (ok, I may have missed one or two) AP Carry, and make some graphs about their potential damage. So without further ado, let's dive in!

It's important to note that these numbers are not the be-all-end-all of your champion selection. No champion (ok Katarina, I'm looking at you!) is purely focused on damage; they tend to have some form of utility built into their kits. This can come in the form of shields, heals, CC, or things like stealth. As well, I have a few caveats:

  1. The numbers I used all assume PERFECT use of skills. Cassiopeia will miss a poison and not get her Twin Fangs off, Rumble will rarely get the full duration of his Q or his ult, and Brand will rarely get 3 bounces of his ult on one person, so the harder the champion is to maximize, the higher these numbers will be inflated.
  2. The numbers I used all assume A SINGLE target. The numbers are all provided, so if you want to calculate the dps for multiple targets, the numbers are there. However, a few skills have diminishing returns for multiple hits (like Ahri's W), and these small differences would have forced a number of graphs which would simply make this post uncomfortable to read. As such, use your own judgment in interpreting these numbers.
  3. There are a number of weird cases which I will address individually. For example, Ziggs E; how many targets? I took a rough estimate that 5 would be a reasonable number to hit, maximally. There may be circumstances where more than 5 might be hit, but while I am assuming perfect use of skills, I am not willing to assume an opponent dumb enough to hit all 11 bombs.

So here's the first graph dump: all champions, organized by Tier ranking as of Elementz last Tier List:

And what do their damage values look like? Well, we have to define a timeframe. Unfortunately, that's a bit harder than you'd think. You see, you can't really calculate spell dps the way you can auto-attack dps. With auto attacks, you get enough off (due to lower cooldowns) that onset time doesn't really matter. Let's say you have a spell with a 1 second cooldown. How many times can you cast it in 1 second? Well, actually, 2 (I mean, there's ping, and animation time, so maybe in 1.2 seconds). That's 2 spells per second. What about in 2 seconds? Well, you get 3 casts, or 1.5 per second. For any given spell with cd x, and any given interval with length t, you can cast that spell 1+ROUNDDOWN(t/x) times, and your dps is (1+ROUNDDOWN(t/x))/t. That is, dps is not a value of actual damage dealt, but of damage dealt per second as duration approaches infinity. With auto attacks, this is less of an issue, but it's huge with spells. On the other hand, we don't really WANT to calculate dps as time approaches infinity, because you don't cast your ult 1/60th of the way every second, you cast it, and then wait 60 seconds. Essentially, the lower your cds are, the better dps calculations model your overall damage. This is why they are very useful for AD Carries. However, most AP Carries have a long-cd ult.

So how do we approximate damage? Well, dps not counting ultimates is a useful value for lane poke, but it's not really what we're looking at. So we want to capture something specific: how much burst does the champion have in t seconds? Unfortunately, any randomly chosen t will screw over some  So instead, I have chosen 3 different t-values, 5, 7, and 10:

So what do we notice? For me, these are the selling points:

  1. Cassiopeia's damage is downright broken. This is something people have known for a long time. But her actual damage will never quite hit her expected damage (and the stun on her ult is reliable against good players).
  2. Karthus is, of course, the next highest damage. However, what may be worth reiterating is that we are assuming ONE TARGET. Karthus absolutely destroys everybody else in damage, the more the longer the fight goes on. Often times, people think Karthus is OP because his ult changes the game. But his late game dps is, frankly, ridiculous.
  3. Syndra has crazy insta-burst, but it falls off the longer a fight goes.
  4. When looking at the top dps champions, we're also looking at people who have a hard time getting all of their damage off: Cass, Syndra, Zyra, Brand, Anivia, Malzahar, Rumble, Viktor, they all have something complicated in maximizing dps. I don't mean that they can miss skill shots, although that's part of it. I mean that their entire kit is made up of damage that can miss, and that if you miss some damage, you lose later damage. If you miss a Brand spell, you may not have the ablaze bonus for future spells. Syndra has to get 7 spheres out. Cass is Cass. Zyra has to manage plants. Anivia has to combo spells. Malzahar can be easily interrupted. Rumble wants to have landed his E to maximize his ult damage (the slow helps). Viktor is the poster-child for unreliability.
  5. Speaking of Viktor, I did not expect him to be so high (although he falls off as time goes on).
  6. Cho is pretty high for a beefy guy, and that's with me neglecting the bonus he gets from his ult being true damage. If his spells weren't as shamelessly advertised as GoDaddy.com, and he weren't melee, he'd be downright OP. As it is, this explains why he has remained a strong pick throughout most of the game.
  7. A lot of very viable mages have low damage, but they bring something else to the fight.
  8. I missed a few things that I don't really want to go back and change now, like Orianna/Diana's passive.
  9. I deliberately didn't deal with MR (another thing that would add too many huge graphs to this post). So champions like Karthus who have MR shred would be even higher. Did I mention that Karthus is sort of crazy?
  10. Same goes for Health; anybody with % health damage will do much more to people with more health.
  11. Don't shy away from low damage champions. TF is very low on both base damage and AP scaling, but his ult is basically the sexiest ability there ever was, and putting him mid lets him pressure every lane.

In case you're curious, here are the same values, but sorted by AP scaling, not base damage.

Try not to cry at how hard Annie scales with AP.

A previous post by VVinrar discussed how amount of CC played a role in determining Tier List Order. However, damage was swept a bit under the rug, with VVinrar saying that CC or low cooldowns were the contributing factors.

However, the fact of the matter is that looking at cooldowns or AP ratios alone is sort of pointless. Or is it? Turns out, it's not. Even when you adjust the AP and Base damage ratios of champions for their cooldowns, there are still no correlations between damage and ranking. Either this is because the data I am using does not correlate directly with the Tier List (which is a month and a half old), or, as VVinrar had previously proclaimed, CC is king. CC is King (well, and other utility)!


 For more of my work:

-- Find old posts @ the RoG forums and new posts every Wednesday (3 PM) and Sunday (9 AM).

-- Feel free to find me in the "A DIFFerent View" chatroom on the NA server.
-- Contact me at [email protected]
-- Follow me on Facebook and Youtube for updates on all of my new articles, videos, and streaming.


Gentleman of the Day

85

Comments

  • #75 AllahModeEngage

    The fact that you called Viktor the 'poster child of unreliability' makes me immediately disregard this post as trash. Viktor is far more reliable than, say, Evelynn, Syndra, Xerath or Karthus. Also, the fact that you underestimated his burst makes me wonder about how much you have even played Viktor. Can you say that you can actually play him well?

  • #76 GentlemanGustaf

    Unreliability has to do with how buggy his kit is/has been, and how much easier his damage is to avoid.

    On the reliable end, you have Annie (point-and-click adventure), and on the unreliable end, you have Viktor. Syndra and Xerath are also somewhat unreliable on those grounds. Also, when was the last time you saw them in tournaments?

    Karthus, on the other hand, has super reliable damage. You turn on your AoE and stand in the team-fights.

  • #77 BuzzsawMF

    I think unreliable is a poor word to use in this instance. I think difficult would be more apt. Viktor's kit hasn't been buggy since they fixed his laser hit box. It works perfectly fine now. 

  • #78 AllahModeEngage

    I called Karthus unreliable because of how shoddy his laning phase is and how easy he is to shut down if you play right. Besides, as BuzzsawMF says, Viktor isn't unreliable, he's just hard to use well, like Syndra and Xerath. His only slightly unreliable damage ability is his Death Ray, since his Power Transfer is point-and-click and his Chaos Storm arrives practically instantly and has a fairly large AoE (about as fast and as big as Summon: Tibbers).

    Last edited by AllahModeEngage: 3/4/2013 10:20:00 AM
  • #79 Pikohchu

    last time i checked, chaos storm can't proc an AoE stun. neither does it have the initial burst that tibbers has. nor can it tank turrets. Also, Viktor isn't very popular since he is forced into buying something off of his hex core, which seriously limits his build, if not in damage, in utility. actually i dont really see either of them in pro play that much...welcome to the league of karthus/anivia

  • #80 AllahModeEngage

    I like how people say that Viktor's passive is useless when it really isn't, please learn to play him well with all 3 of his hex core builds before commenting that it's 'useless'.

  • #81 Dj0z

    Hi there. I'm one of the persons who instabought Viktor on release, thinking he was going to be what Kha'zix turned out to really be (the whole "evolutive/adaptive" theme). I tried hard to make him work in a satisfying manner with all 3 of his hex cores so here is why i gave up on that:

    -The most obvious part, the missing item slot, is more of a pain than it looks like. Felt ever since midgame. Augments can never replace a ward, or anything too different from the stats they can offer.

    -At the end of the day, the only free stat he gets is +3 AP per level. Until i realized that, i was being underwhelming with Viktor no matter what i built. So i decided to start capitalizing on that free AP and went balls deep AP with red augment, and suddenly i was melting people like butter. No matter how hard i tried, the lack of other free stats than AP made him less good at doing anything else than bursting harder than other mages who don't get free scaling AP. For example the Yellow augment hints at a AP bruiser style of play, yet offer no resists at all to synergize with Q's shield. Compare that  with Red augment, whose extra AP self-synergize with the +30% damage on E. The blue augment offered irrelevant and cost-inefficient mana stats (those might be better now that mana got nerfed across the board), low CDR, and a range increase that's also completely irrelevant anytime you cast W at anything below the extra range (as in, when you get dived by a bruiser, which happens... all the time?)

    So while i do not question that you may have found ways to build Viktor differently and make good use of all his augments, i have not. I suspect most players haven't either, and that would explain the general opinion on him, to answer your question. I'm curious about how you use him though.

    Last edited by Dj0z: 3/5/2013 3:29:13 AM
  • #82 BuzzsawMF

    Storm doesnt proc a stun but it does proc a silence. The silence shuts up alot of AP mids in their tracks and allows Viktor to unleash all on them before they even have a chance. I truly believe Viktor is still unpopular because of the issues from season 2. Since Liandry's came out he is more then viable. He isnt a hard champ he is just difficult to play.  

    Hexcore doesnt limit his build due to the extra effects it provides. It does need an extra augment to build into a late game item but plenty of champs fall off late game. It is how you play him that makes the difference. Piko, your synopsis sounds like you have never really played him. :/

  • #83 AllahModeEngage

    Quote from Dj0z »

    I'm curious about how you use him though.

    If I buy Augment: Power, I play him as a kiting AP CDR bruiser. As long as there's something to hit, the speed and shield from Q is up practically all the time, and the rest of his abilities will also have short CDs. I build this way if my team lacks tankiness. 

    If I build Augment: Gravity, I play him as an utility APC. His gravity field at max rank is practically a guarenteed stun and I also max CDR with this build so it will be a fairly long-ranged AoE stun. I build this way if my team lacks CC (rare these days though).

    If I build Augment: Death, I build him as a fairly tanky high-burst APC. He has massive burst especially with Augment: Death but he needs some tankiness in order to get it off before getting killed. I usually build this way. 

  • #84 Pikohchu

    I assume by "never played him" you mean that I don't play him regularly, because i HAVE tried him to some success but lost interest quickly. But overall, yeah, i don't. And the silence is only 0.5 seconds which is pretty much only good enough to end channels and give a slight edge in team fights. I'm not saying he's a bad champ, just that other AP mids are preferred. Actually, this is probably largely due to the fact that he IS underplayed and many people don't know how to work with him on your team. 

    And I have no idea what you mean by :

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    He isnt a hard champ he is just difficult to play.  

     

  • #85 Pikohchu

    ...and that totally replied in the wrong place..

  • #86 Pikohchu

    omg that one too..

  • #87 Pikohchu

    i give up LOL

  • #88 BuzzsawMF

    Quote from Pikohchu »

    I assume by "never played him" you mean that I don't play him regularly, because i HAVE tried him to some success but lost interest quickly. But overall, yeah, i don't. And the silence is only 0.5 seconds which is pretty much only good enough to end channels and give a slight edge in team fights. I'm not saying he's a bad champ, just that other AP mids are preferred. Actually, this is probably largely due to the fact that he IS underplayed and many people don't know how to work with him on your team. 

    And I have no idea what you mean by :

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    He isnt a hard champ he is just difficult to play.  

     

    LOL I meant "He isnt a bad champ" sorry lol.

  • #89 BuzzsawMF

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    Quote from Pikohchu »

    I assume by "never played him" you mean that I don't play him regularly, because i HAVE tried him to some success but lost interest quickly. But overall, yeah, i don't. And the silence is only 0.5 seconds which is pretty much only good enough to end channels and give a slight edge in team fights. I'm not saying he's a bad champ, just that other AP mids are preferred. Actually, this is probably largely due to the fact that he IS underplayed and many people don't know how to work with him on your team. 

    And I have no idea what you mean by :

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    He isnt a hard champ he is just difficult to play.  

     

    LOL I meant "He isnt a bad champ" sorry lol.

    It is only a 0.5 silence but in most 1 on 1 cases people will panic and try to burn everything in the first moments. You start an engagement by throwing your W on or leading then blow your Lazer and Q. If you time it right you can toss your Ult immediately when they exit the stun then your CD's are refreshed and you can lazer them again. That usually kills most mids. 

     

    I am just saying that most people will judge a champion before they take the time to  see what they can do. Viktor is a prime example of this. Most players play him twice and go "Laser is hard to hit with, shit tier champ, rage at all who play him"

  • #90 Pikohchu

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    Quote from Pikohchu »

    I assume by "never played him" you mean that I don't play him regularly, because i HAVE tried him to some success but lost interest quickly. But overall, yeah, i don't. And the silence is only 0.5 seconds which is pretty much only good enough to end channels and give a slight edge in team fights. I'm not saying he's a bad champ, just that other AP mids are preferred. Actually, this is probably largely due to the fact that he IS underplayed and many people don't know how to work with him on your team. 

    And I have no idea what you mean by :

    Quote from BuzzsawMF »

    He isnt a hard champ he is just difficult to play.  

     

    LOL I meant "He isnt a bad champ" sorry lol.

    It is only a 0.5 silence but in most 1 on 1 cases people will panic and try to burn everything in the first moments. You start an engagement by throwing your W on or leading then blow your Lazer and Q. If you time it right you can toss your Ult immediately when they exit the stun then your CD's are refreshed and you can lazer them again. That usually kills most mids. 

     

    I am just saying that most people will judge a champion before they take the time to  see what they can do. Viktor is a prime example of this. Most players play him twice and go "Laser is hard to hit with, shit tier champ, rage at all who play him"

    Hmm.. that sounds pretty deadly haha

    He's definitely a good champion. I don't really think there's a such thing as a BAD champ. Even Karma's new rework makes me want to get her. He does seem like more of a good solo queue champ though. 

  • #66 jeffjo28

    Hey, can you please explain why Swain jumps 1000 dps from the 7sec model to the 10 sec model (1600 -> 2600).

  • #67 GentlemanGustaf

    Everything comes off cooldown.

     EDIT: this is why it's REALLY important not to look at a specific number of seconds, and to view this data in aggregate.

    Last edited by GentlemanGustaf: 2/22/2013 4:01:37 PM
  • #68 DeadGod

    Something else to keep in mind on Swain (which I doubt was factored into the end results here) is that his E amplifies all his damage by 20% for it's duration.  If that's factored in for 8 of the 10 seconds, I imagine you see around a 10-15% total jump in his DPS over 10 seconds.

    Edit: Nevermind, I saw that you did just that (mentioned in a reply below.)

    Last edited by DeadGod: 2/22/2013 6:01:03 PM
  • #69 GentlemanGustaf

    If you want the exact mathematical way I Did it, I summed his E/W/Q/R damage. I then multiplied them by 1+ ROUNDDOWN(time/cooldown,0)

    Essentially, I multiplied them by how many times you could cast them.

    I then added .2 to the 1 (for each cast of Torment), so instead of treating it like a 20% increased spell, you actually cast it 1.2 times. It's a bit of a brute force way to go about it, but I was trying to find an equation I could use for every champion with only small tweaks, as opposed to champ-by-champ equations.

     

    EDIT: But keep bringing these up. I don't play mid much, so I am quite sure that I have overlooked SOMETHING in the interaction of skills (I almost missed Brand's + 25% damage on W on the first run-through).

    I also used the full number of orbs for Syndra (not really fair, since it requires full CDR to do, but all other calculations assume no CDR). Sue me, I've never played Syndra :P

    Last edited by GentlemanGustaf: 2/22/2013 7:07:53 PM
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes