Farewell to Season 2: Surge

Here's Lookin' At You

When Season 2 rolled around they brought out a new summoner spell, Surge. Remember that spell? It sure is not popular! In todays' meta, on-hit effects, attack-speed, and trying to get in a lot of auto attacks don't fit, and they haven't for a long time. Also, who uses both attack speed and AP? Hardly anyone. Turn this thing on and you get huge. It's a red alarm that more damage is being dealt, instead of simply a sound effect and muted visible effect, like when Irelia's W turns on. Even Malph's W has a smaller visible effect.

The crazy thing is that we don't know for sure if they'll even keep it!

 

So in memory or preparation, let's do some number crunching on the AP for everyone's favorite (hah) summoner spell, Surge! Here's a chart showing the number of bonus AP gained for 12 seconds when using Surge, with Ignite compared next to it.

Level Surge AP Bonus Surge AP Bonus with mastery Total Ignite Damage
1 10 11 70
2 14 15.4 90
3 18 19.8 110
4 22 24.2 130
5 26 28.6 150
6 30 33 170
7 34 37.4 190
8 38 41.8 210
9 42 46.2 230
10 46 50.6 250
11 50 55 270
12 54 59.4 290
13 58 63.8 310
14 62 68.2 330
15 66 72.6 350
16 70 77 370
17 74 81.4 390
18 78 85.8 410

 

Strictly AP (Examples: Anivia and Karthus)

For starters the ratio of AP to damage starts at 6.36 at level 1 and ends at 4.78, assuming you got the offensive mastery, and you should if you're taking this ability. At level 18 then, to get the damage equivalent of an ignite you need to have 4.78 points of damage per AP showing. The ratios will really need to stack with 12 seconds, then, eh? And that's at level 18! Again, if you use spells with the equivalent of 4.78 AP in ratios within 12 seconds, you will equal 410 damage. At a lower level it's even harsher.  Oh, and ignite's damage is true damage, and it also reduces healing effects for 5 seconds. So, add a percentage on top of that because your magic damage will be reduced.

A nicely landed Anivia Q and E have 1.0 AP. That's just 2. Her AOE has .25. Doesn't seem worth it, does it? If her Q hits two people perfectly, that's still 3.25. Maybe we should think AOE instead.

Karthus' ult has .6. If he hits all 5, that's 3. His AOE E has .25, and his Q is .6 single target and .3 two targets. At level 6 the ratio is 5.15. This means if he ults 5 people after he surges, he needs to get in just 2.15 more AP ratio's worth of damage. That's 9 ticks of his E, 4 single large Q's, or 7 targets total in a multi-hit lay waste within 12 seconds, or, say, 2 ticks of Defile on two people plus 2 lay wastes on 2 people. (2 x 2 x .25) + (.3 x 2 x 2). The more it surpasses it, the more Surge helps.

Remember to add 10-50% for all of the MR that reduces the damage done. If you don't have the penetration, it just isn't going to work.

Oh, and we have to get Karthus as our example to even make it work. Most AP champs do not have this kind of opportunity to repeat a lot aoe spells in 12 seconds. Cassiopeia might also work...

Strictly Attack Speed (Example: Graves)

With the mastery, you get 40% attack speed for the 12 seconds. That's a big boost. Graves' E gives him 40-80% from levels 1-5 for 5 seconds. Graves' base attack speed is .638 the addition of 40% AS makes for an increase of .255 attacks per seconds. At 12 seconds, if he is attacking nonstop the whole time (unlikely), he'll get three full additional attacks. Some nice footwork and he'll get two more. This doesn't take into the account the ability to move and shoot as AS gives you, which is also nice, but remember, we're comparing it to a ignite, which does not require us to stay.

At level 1, you have to deal more than 70 damage with your additional auto-attacks. At level 18, it has to be more than 410.

Pretty much junk.

Both (Examples: Corki and Jax)

Unlike Graves, Corki has some magic spells he'll be using. If he gets out one bomb and two non-big one missiles on two people each, that's (.5 x 1) + (.3 x 2 x 2) for 1.7 x the AP given from Surge. At level 6, ignite is 170, and Surge is 33. 33 x 1.7 for 56.1 extra magic damage. That's only 114 extra damage from auto-attacks he'd have to get in.

Jax's magic damage is all single target. Q, W, and E have AP ratios of .6, .6, and .7. At level 6, if Jax uses all of them and gets two of his third explosive hits in, that's 2.6 x 33 for 85.8. He'd have to get an extra 84 damage off of auto-attacks to equal an ignite.

Remember though: no healing reduction and the damage isn't true, it's facing armor and MR.

Why you don't take Surge Unless You're Trolling

Surge isn't good because it relies heavily on continued damage for it to be effective. Most fights are hit and run, not outright spammed damage. Few champions use AP and attack speed both. Few times can you manage to get enough AP use to get an ignite off. Under AOE circumstances, Surge will deal more damage in team fights. Why pick the right champ and play harder to capitalize on it? And what about the fact that most of the game isn't teamfights?

So yeah, in case you were wondering: Surge his horrible. This is why.

I seriously ask: was this ability tested? Was the math done on it? What were they thinking?

Best,
Old Man Eyebrows

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108

Comments

  • #108 Dylangerskid

    "Jax's magic damage is all single target. Q, W, and E have AP ratios of .6, .6, and .7. At level 6, if Jax uses all of them and gets two of his third explosive hits in, that's 2.6 x 33 for 85.8. He'd have to get an extra 84 damage off of auto-attacks to equal an ignite."

    Ok so jax gets on normal hit does more than 70 damage cause he gets over 200 when built hybrid!

    The W on jax has a 3 second cd at level 18, that means the w will be used four times in most fights and Jax will use an item to slow then use his q when a player flashes, therefore this proves that it does more damage.

    Also good jax builds build jax tanky hybrid with more than 200 ad and 200 ap with around 3k hp which means he will surely get his W off at least twice, two doubles, plus one normal hit would top ingite, jax isn't ganna die in a 1v1 in under 12 seconds, and if he kills you within about 4-6 seconds he will use the rest of surge to kill another.

    Also Surge plus 28-35% AS from ruins on Master Yi allows him to go with only one AS item which allows him to raise his AD, get revive armor, get Trinity Force, or Rabadon's Deathcap to stack with surge, surge also brings Alpha strikes damage up by about 86 which multiplied by 4 enemy champions is 344 not to mention the heal does 800 plus 174 healing and he gets off double strikes a lot more fluently also it is very pwnage to have with jungle Yi because he can solo blue buff with surge. and save his smite for the next buff or set of minnions, its very pwnage early game one master yi because of the intense AS it provides, and it actually made AD heavy with a slight hybrid feel for Mr. Yi good, all hybrid yis besides mine suck and die, and all ap yis suck and die i built him the way he was meant to be played.

    Rabadon's Deathcap on AD yi with surge, surge gives about 86 AP, Rabadon's gives 120 AP for a total of 206 AP which gives Yi's alpha strike 824 extra damage to divided among four champions.  The Meditate gets its heal beefed by 412

    After i put points into the AD parts of the AD mastery tree i also grab some Ap  none of the numbers i put out above had the mastery page in mind, keeping that in mind with the mastery tree you would do a lot more damage with surge, with Archmage.

    4 Points PrerequisiteEdit

    8 Points PrerequisiteEdit

    12 Points PrerequisiteEdit

    16 Points PrerequisiteEdit

    20 Points PrerequisiteEdit

     

    Might trade something for destruction or spell sword, but spell sword wasn't in the game back then

    Also STRICTLY AS SURGE IS OP ON YI WITH OUT THE ABILITY POWER PARTS! XD
    but it wont matter now that they changing master Yi :( cause of meta game that isn't always better.

     

     

    Also what about teemo?

  • #96 Dj0z

    When taking down a turret/inhibitor/nexus, Surge deals more damage than Ignite in 100% of cases.

    When trying to clear a creepwave, assuming you can't just do it with 1 spell, Surge deals more damage than Ignite in 100% of cases.

     

    Good job trying to make the games last longer, Riot. Yet these people remain completely oblivious to it, too busy debating about who's got the biggest spellPeen between Ignite and Surge.

    Different purposes are different, for f*ck's sake. Just because Surge has more versatility than ignite and could help winning faster didn't mean you had to remove it.

    Last edited by Dj0z: 11/13/2012 6:52:28 AM
  • #97 Douggie

    Riot stated they are removing it because it is too inconsistent of a summoner spell, with it's potential benefits being either too restrictive or too difficult to determine. Ultimately it is a spell whose niche can be fill by Ignite, according to Riot.

  • #98 Dj0z

    Yes that's what they said, but my examples show that there are things Ignite simply does not help with. Surge did help with these things, with its removal those possibilities just disappear.

    When surge is gone, LoL loses its only DPS (and AP) summoners-spell-steroid in the whole game. And i really think the AP should have been on a separate summoner spell in the first place. That would fix the whole perception issue.

    Last edited by Dj0z: 11/13/2012 12:21:35 PM
  • #102 pagansaint

    It is actually more likely that they realized a couple of the potential abuse combinations of the spell with their new items.

    Skarner with the new Tiamat for example.

    Last edited by pagansaint: 11/14/2012 7:33:38 AM
  • #103 Dj0z

    Quote from pagansaint »

    It is actually more likely that they realized a couple of the potential abuse combinations of the spell with their new items.

    Skarner with the new Tiamat for example.

    You might just be right. I remember that they removed the effect of Aegis of the Legion on pets, in the same patch where they released Yorick. That's probably a similar decision pattern.

  • #104 Douggie

    It is a possibility, although a lot of choices are made sort of all at once. They could have removed surge at the point they introduced the new Tiamat. They could have not, we are all unsure. I will say it does sort of make sense off of what they have said so far. They are removing Promote in favor of adding an item with its effect since they feel it better as a buy in option rather then a concrete choice. Who knows, maybe they are adding an item with a similar effect to Surge so that way you can continue to use it without using a spell slot. The buy-in idea would be a better approach I think.

  • #106 Dj0z

    One of the Reds did mention something that gives +100% attack speed, for a very short time. I guess that qualifies as what you are talking about. I can't remember where exactly they said it though.

  • #93 Vunjo

    Every champion that is based on buffing him/herself up can also use Surge instead of Ignite. It's just simple, if a champion is made to be used in a way so he/she can fight for certain amount of time, Surge is way better. Just because you obviously never played such champions, doesn't make Surge less powerful as a spell. +LoL is one of the games where you can actually rely only on DPS, since there is Tenacity, which will shorten the effect of CCs on you, + many more items that actually break cc. There's also both spell vamp, and life steal, which means the higher your DPS is -> more defensive you are.

    Ignite sure is easier to use, but if you can't use Surge instead, why not let the rest use it?

    To Basinator, you're right, more damage from items like Infinity Edge make Surge a better use. It's just that people in this community obviously haven't come from games where DPS is actually measured, so they can't learn to create proper builds for their champions, instantly making their DPS lower, which makes Surge worse choice. I laugh every time I see an enemy Master Yi buying Phantom Dancers (sometimes, more than just 2 of them) as first items, while I just get Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Brutalizer (Which do stack, there's wiki if you don't believe me), and literally kill the enemies within 2 seconds...

    Overall, it's just silly to discuss this topic anymore. People around here obviously do not know how to use champions that are based on buffs (Master Yi, Olaf, Kayle, Xin Zhao, Kog Maw, etc.), so they instantly can't use Surge as a spell,

    Last edited by Vunjo: 11/13/2012 1:23:00 AM
  • #95 Douggie

    Well now your just being insulting.

  • #87 Douggie

    This is all a moot point, as it has been announced that Surge will go bye bye in S3

    and OldmanEyebrows, you were right

  • #88 TreeBurrow

    Moot? It's not Moot until S3 starts, that's still several long weeks away...

    OldmanEyebrows is right to an extent, so is Vunjo... It's about applying the math to the game, Sometimes you'll be in a situation in which Surge > Ignite... Othertimes Ignite will be better, we're here discussing those situations and coming up with scenarios in which Surge is useful, and they do exist... It's an under-rated Spell...

  • #90 Douggie

    Useful and Viable are two different things (in my eyes at least) .  I can USE a spatula to hammer a nail, but that's not a VIABLE option as a hammer is more effective.

    I can USE Surge on a few champs, but I have to meet certain perimeters and cater to the spell in order to get the most out of it, which isn't very VIABLE when I can just run Ignite and insure I'm dealing some true damage.

    Even if you can objectively prove that Surge>Ignite 5% of the time, doesn't mean I should drop everything and run only Surge so that way I can come across that 5% occurance and do more damage then Ignite. This is what makes the point moot.  The argument is purely for a sort of academic purpose and may not hold any relevance to real world application.  The fact that it's being removed in S3 just adds to how moot of a point it is (or will become). 

  • #91 sgtcolon

    Lol.

    Way to remain uncouth and obstructive, despite gracious explanations and discussion from your peers.

    You don't have to meet any 'parameters' for Surge to be viable, certain champions (e.g. the much discussed Kog'Maw) meet these requirements for you. (Long range, slow, plenty of time to auto-attack targets safely and rarely close enough to an enemy to even use Ignite).

    You should take a lead from GentlemanGustaf's recent post and get better at realising when it is time to back down from a falsely held opinion when presented with facts. Time to 'man up' and concede that Surge is/was more than viable for some champions, just not many champions (which no one ever argued was the case!). Precisely why Riot are replacing it with something else, was just too niche.

    Last edited by sgtcolon: 11/12/2012 8:39:16 PM
  • #92 TreeBurrow

    Something being Niche doesn't mean it's moot

  • #94 Douggie

    Ok...first off, let me clarify the context that I'm trying to explain; 

    Moot:

    to reduce or remove the practical significance of; make purely theoretical or academic.

    Archaic, to argue (a case), especially in a mock court.

    When I'm labeling the argument as moot, I'm stating that significance is mostly theorectical or academic in that the OBJECTIVITY of the evidence may prove one thing, but the SUBJECTIVITY of it is another matter.  Real world application.  I'm trying to say that even if you can prove something with hard facts, doesn't mean its always going to be applicable and so if it's not going to be consistently applicable then it's argument has no "real" relevance and you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.  A moot point.

    Sorry, but my opinion isn't necessarily false nor is it true.  It's my opinion.  And just because I may be unable (or unwilling) to invalidate your argument doesn't prove it's true, that's an Argument from ignorance.  The presented facts and equations are only accounting for specific and fixed occurences, almost completely ignoring other factors simply because they are intangible.  To state that this makes it true is a ludic fallacy.  Too put it another way, no reasonable person is going to bet on black when the last 50 times its come up red, even if mathmatically the odds are still 50:50.  Even if Surge can do more damage in certain situations mathematically, doesn't always make it the right choice in those situations.

    Last edited by Douggie: 11/13/2012 2:42:11 AM
  • #99 TreeBurrow

    However, It's not Moot... Because we've given you real world applications and examples of when Surge beats Ignite... It's not purely theoretical, it's proven... Surge can and will increase your DPS more than Ignite on certain champions... Therefore it's Niche, Surge is by no means Moot... It doesn't have to be consistantly applicable in order to be relevant...

    For example: Sometimes Getting a 2nd PD is better than getting a LW on Vayne... That doesn't mean that all AD carries benefit more from IE, PD, PD than IE, PD, LW... It simply means that occasionally IE, PD, PD is a viable option on this specific champion... Theres a real world applicaion in which IE, PD, PD is better than IE, PD, LW...
    There are specific examples of when and how Surge can be a better option than Ignite... These examples are few, but they exist... They don't come up often, but when they do, you'll benefit more from Surge than Ignite, how is that irrelevant? Yes, it's hard to gain the full benefit of Surge for the full duration of 12 seconds in a normal team-fight, it's hard, but not impossible... And you don't need to benefit from the full duration in order for your DPS to pass that of Ignite...

    These days 3 roles usually run Ignite (Mid, Bot, Top) you realize the DeBuff doesn't stack, right? In refreshes the DoT, it doesn't amplify it... An Ignite could easily be applied to the same target by two different team members. therefore your Ignite didn't deal 410 true damage, but perhaps only 250 true damage... Surge will almost always beat that...

  • #100 Douggie

    You have given me a solid analogy and I commend you by conceding a point: There can be relevance and it is therefore not moot. At least not until the spell is removed in S3 (your original counter-statement).

    I however can't ignore the fact that evidence for the larger argument (Surge>Ignite) has been fairly weak, including the original post by OldManEyeBrows (another earlier statement that I made needs to be retracted as well).  The evidence has either been pretty subjective (I use it on X champion and I do fine with it) or in one case given inconsistent comparisons (Surge will do more damage then Ignite against towers or creep waves).  The one time I was presented with hard objective evidence (Vunjo's example) it was riddled with, in my opinion, some faults:

    1) His math is wrong (This I find kinda humorous since he cites a source with the equation and an example to illustrate).  He incorrectly calculated ending Attack Speed and made some of his conclusion based on this error.  Using numbers from the Wiki and his base model of lvl 9 Master Yi:

    Master Yi's base attack speed is .679.  He gains 2.98% per level for 8 levels (level 1 is not included) for a total of 23.84%.  25% from Zerker Greaves. 40% from Highlander. 50% from Youmuu's Active.  Bonuses are additive so 25+40+50+23.84 = 138.84%.  Masteried Surge gives 40% for a total of 178.84%.  Calculation for each is:

    Without Surge:

    .679 * (100%+138.84%)-> .679 * 238.84%-> .679 * 2.3884= 1.622 (Game rounds to 3 points)

    With Surge:

    .679 * (100%+178.84%)-> .679 * 278.84%-> .679 * 2.7884= 1.894

    Not the best quality but a screenshot nonetheless: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/pheonixfire000/YiAttackSpeed.jpg

    This is actually only a 16.7% increase, not 18%.  If AD remains the same then without surge: 213 * 1.622 = 345.486. Applying Surge would increase damage by 57.69. Ignite is 46 DPS. That gap just got smaller.

    2) There is some exaggeration that is creating some false emphasis.  At level 9, having both a Youmuu's and a Brutalizer with Zerk's means you have almost 5k gold.  Not saying that's impossible, it just comes off as pretty far-fetched. And saying 66 armor pen at level 9 is "far more than most players have" is pure hyperbole.  Master Yi himself at level 9 has about 50 from just base.  Throw in armor seals and the armor mastery (both easily met conditions) and he has close to 69 armor. Sure he has only 3 armor remaining, but the fact it's there and is higher can invalidate his statement.  This ties into my last problem:

    3) He uses a Goldfish Opponent.  I remember using this term when I played Magic: The Gathering.  Essentially you played a solitaire game with your deck against an imaginary opponent that just passed his turn and did nothing else.  Sure you could see how your deck could play on each of it's turns, but you were ignoring human interaction and reaction. Not a really good way to test something.  It's like looking at something in a vacuum. He tries to build on his argument by adding that crit and more ad make the number bigger, but he ignores how additional armor will reduce the number. OldManEyeBrows tries to eliminate this by looking at skeleton numbers, but I don't feel that's a proper way to look at it either.  If I was to use the Yi example then lets say his opponent buys Ninja Tabi (Something easily doable by level 9 even if you were to goldfish in the game). Ninja Tabi not only has 25 armor, but it lowers auto-attacks by 10%.  According to the wiki this stacks multiplicatively with armor, so I believe the calculation would look like this:

    25 armor -> 100/125 = .8 -> 20% physical damage reduction

    (1-.2)*(1-.1) = .72 or 28% physical damage reduction.

    Here's where I might mess up so please correct me if I'm wrong but given the previous Yi example:

    213*.72=153.36*1.622 =248.749 (I think this is how you would calculate it since you reduce the damage then factor attack speed, I could be wrong).  If Surge increases damage by 16.7% like I said before then Surge is only increasing your damage by 41.54.  Ignite is still 46.

    Can you see how I'm having trouble being truly convinced?  Yes, I have been presented with examples from both sides, but I find them all to be fairly weak or inconsistent.  So even if evidence is thrown at me, I shouldn't just take it at face value and automatically assume a certain truth or falsehood.  You yourself have given what could be considered better objective reasoning then anything else presented and you still come up with a middle ground/neutral answer, so I hope you can see where I'm coming from in this perspective.

    Last edited by Douggie: 11/13/2012 10:23:30 PM
  • #101 sgtcolon

    It's problems like this that make me wish LoL had a test mode for champions / builds.

    I used to play a shit load of a french MMORPG called Dofus. This game had the standard characteristics to put points into and items to wear for extra stats etc, but weapons used to have the greatest effect on your DPS (at least from auto-attacks). There were areas dotted all around the game world that contained 'Dojo's' which basically had high HP punching bags in them. So, you could experiment with new items and builds till your heart was content just beating up on these 'poutches'.

    We could really do with something like this in LoL as it could use the exact and up-to-date patch information / damage formulas and would make situational testing so much easier. (Sure, it would make a lot of the excellent math crafting on sites like this pretty obsolete, but it would mean a huge majority of the player base could experiment much more successfully).

    Riot pls! Let us create custom games (no need to even be a proper game mode, since there is no winner/loser) with 1-5 players where you have unlimited gold and can test whatever builds you want on static targets with various resistances. All you need is a mechanic similar to a death re-cap to give us the info we are always looking for. This could be expanded in so many useful ways...

  • #105 Vunjo

    Quote from Douggie »

    You have given me a solid analogy and I commend you by conceding a point: There can be relevance and it is therefore not moot. At least not until the spell is removed in S3 (your original counter-statement).

    I however can't ignore the fact that evidence for the larger argument (Surge>Ignite) has been fairly weak, including the original post by OldManEyeBrows (another earlier statement that I made needs to be retracted as well).  The evidence has either been pretty subjective (I use it on X champion and I do fine with it) or in one case given inconsistent comparisons (Surge will do more damage then Ignite against towers or creep waves).  The one time I was presented with hard objective evidence (Vunjo's example) it was riddled with, in my opinion, some faults:

    1) His math is wrong (This I find kinda humorous since he cites a source with the equation and an example to illustrate).  He incorrectly calculated ending Attack Speed and made some of his conclusion based on this error.  Using numbers from the Wiki and his base model of lvl 9 Master Yi:

    Master Yi's base attack speed is .679.  He gains 2.98% per level for 8 levels (level 1 is not included) for a total of 23.84%.  25% from Zerker Greaves. 40% from Highlander. 50% from Youmuu's Active.  Bonuses are additive so 25+40+50+23.84 = 138.84%.  Masteried Surge gives 40% for a total of 178.84%.  Calculation for each is:

    Without Surge:

    .679 * (100%+138.84%)-> .679 * 238.84%-> .679 * 2.3884= 1.622 (Game rounds to 3 points)

    With Surge:

    .679 * (100%+178.84%)-> .679 * 278.84%-> .679 * 2.7884= 1.894

    Not the best quality but a screenshot nonetheless: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/pheonixfire000/YiAttackSpeed.jpg

    This is actually only a 16.7% increase, not 18%.  If AD remains the same then without surge: 213 * 1.622 = 345.486. Applying Surge would increase damage by 57.69. Ignite is 46 DPS. That gap just got smaller.

    2) There is some exaggeration that is creating some false emphasis.  At level 9, having both a Youmuu's and a Brutalizer with Zerk's means you have almost 5k gold.  Not saying that's impossible, it just comes off as pretty far-fetched. And saying 66 armor pen at level 9 is "far more than most players have" is pure hyperbole.  Master Yi himself at level 9 has about 50 from just base.  Throw in armor seals and the armor mastery (both easily met conditions) and he has close to 69 armor. Sure he has only 3 armor remaining, but the fact it's there and is higher can invalidate his statement.  This ties into my last problem:

    3) He uses a Goldfish Opponent.  I remember using this term when I played Magic: The Gathering.  Essentially you played a solitaire game with your deck against an imaginary opponent that just passed his turn and did nothing else.  Sure you could see how your deck could play on each of it's turns, but you were ignoring human interaction and reaction. Not a really good way to test something.  It's like looking at something in a vacuum. He tries to build on his argument by adding that crit and more ad make the number bigger, but he ignores how additional armor will reduce the number. OldManEyeBrows tries to eliminate this by looking at skeleton numbers, but I don't feel that's a proper way to look at it either.  If I was to use the Yi example then lets say his opponent buys Ninja Tabi (Something easily doable by level 9 even if you were to goldfish in the game). Ninja Tabi not only has 25 armor, but it lowers auto-attacks by 10%.  According to the wiki this stacks multiplicatively with armor, so I believe the calculation would look like this:

    25 armor -> 100/125 = .8 -> 20% physical damage reduction

    (1-.2)*(1-.1) = .72 or 28% physical damage reduction.

    Here's where I might mess up so please correct me if I'm wrong but given the previous Yi example:

    213*.72=153.36*1.622 =248.749 (I think this is how you would calculate it since you reduce the damage then factor attack speed, I could be wrong).  If Surge increases damage by 16.7% like I said before then Surge is only increasing your damage by 41.54.  Ignite is still 46.

    Can you see how I'm having trouble being truly convinced?  Yes, I have been presented with examples from both sides, but I find them all to be fairly weak or inconsistent.  So even if evidence is thrown at me, I shouldn't just take it at face value and automatically assume a certain truth or falsehood.  You yourself have given what could be considered better objective reasoning then anything else presented and you still come up with a middle ground/neutral answer, so I hope you can see where I'm coming from in this perspective.

    Honorable comment, I must say that. I am shocked that someone actually took the task to calculate it on his own. Congratulations for that.

    But...I'm sure I have listed another thing, search for the quote on your own, but these were my words "I have forgot to implement the double strike passive, and critical strike damage, so my calculations are wrong, but are actually higher in result than it is at the moment". So the damage is as following:

    212 AD. 15% crit chance, given the fact that critical strike deals 210% damage (100% + 100% + 10% mastery point), we can easly use the following formula:

    New Attack Damage = (Attack Damage x (1 - Crit Chance)) +(Attack Damage * Crit Chance * Crit Damage)

    Making it a total of 246.98 => 247

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Double Strike can just increase the overall damage output by 8/7 => 14.28%, since in the time of 7 attacks, Yi will strike 8 times.

    Which makes the damage go up to 282.28 instead. The best part? It's the damage, not DPS :>

    I see that I have made a mistake in calculating attack speeds now. But, you made a slight mistake too. You forgotten the 4% attack speed bonus from mastery :)

    So I'll just apply those 4% into your calculations:

    Without Surge: 1.64

    With Surge: 1.92

    Which makes it 17% difference in DPS (It's just silly, but I think you were way too confident, nice try though).

    Which adds up to 78.69 -> 79 bonus Physical DPS.

    So your maths weren't correct either, yet you didn't see it like I mentioned in posts few days ago, where I clearly said that I have forgotten to imply certain factors (I might still be missing few of them). Let's get to your points now.

    2.) I hate to use this term, but it's simply based on my user experience. If you haven't tried Surge as much as I use it, then I suppose it's hard to counter this one. Early in the game, when enemy jungler comes to our lanes (I lane as AD Carry along with a support), and let's say that I might be level 6 by that time. If so, given certain factors, but cause of Surge and clearly overspamming Q to champions, I end up having a triple kill. But since this is asks for too many factors, let's just say, surge grants me early game double kill in ~85% of games.

    The above point: If I'm level 9, it does not mean the enemy team is also filled with level 9 champions. I'm usually at least 2 levels (a lot of times even more) higher than them. This makes them have less armor.

    Another point: They do not gain that much armor like you said, because Master Yi has actually quite high base armor, and armor gain, making your post invalid.

    + Even if they somehow manage to reach the given armor penetration, in the season 3, which this is the point of course, to have a possibility that Riot should keep Surge in season 3. Maths change. Rotation of calculating Armor Penetration changes. The % armor penetration comes first. Because of the 10% from Mastery point, it now allows them to have up to 73 armor, at pretty low levels, considering that Surge grants me overall much higher level improvement than the others gain. Given the fact that it won't and does not happen in most cases, I assume I was right.

    Another point, the rotation of my focus is simple, kill the tanks last, or my last focus is one with Ninja Tabi.

    Since this was actually all seen from my games, my Master Yi with my builds, I'm pretty confident that all I say here simply gets accepted, bringing pictures here is just silly since everyone can see my scores in LoL if anyone cares to see them though.

    Another, and far biggest wrong part of your post. The overall damage from my calculations if first post was not around 70, but around 160. Despite Master Yi being mainly based on Attack Damage, when given such power, his Alpha Strike is devastating, and I dare saying in some cases deal more damage (Well, in this one the DPS was higher). Not to mention that the time I took was 10 seconds, in reality, because of the overall high DPS, it's much lower, based that the team is fighting as well, I'm sure the enemies melt in 6 seconds, which overall makes the Alpha Strike DPS increased by 67%. Now I'm just inserting approximations, but:

    If the Alpha Strike DPS was about 92.4, then given by my game plays, and pretty much this position, is increased to 154.3, which when added to physical DPS, is up to 233.3 bonus DPS given from Surge.

    Which makes, in this case, Surge > Ignite by 507%.

    Well played, but you have forgotten a mastery point, so don't brag about anything without being apsolutely sure, or at least, saying that there might be a mistake or 2. Indeed, I did some mistakes with the physical damage calculations, but I have said so in the posts after it. 

    Your main mistake was the fact that you forgot the godlike Alpha Strike. How did you even start the physical calculation point, and yet, even say that "46 Ignite damage is stronger than 41.54 Surge damage" If you forgot the highest DPS gain of the Surge, used by Alpha Strike?

    EDIT: I think I also mentioned that I was out of this conversation, clearly because people can't give any reasonable arguments that can completely throw my theories to pieces, but this post, your post, just gave me the inspiration to join. I consider being out now.

    Talking about perspectives, sure, you can't use Surge on champions like Ryze, or a lot of other mages. But that's not how you can counter it's power. It's used by fewer champions, but results are much higher, as you can see that.

    Last edited by Vunjo: 11/14/2012 1:34:24 PM
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