Here's Lookin' At You
When Season 2 rolled around they brought out a new summoner spell, Surge. Remember that spell? It sure is not popular! In todays' meta, on-hit effects, attack-speed, and trying to get in a lot of auto attacks don't fit, and they haven't for a long time. Also, who uses both attack speed and AP? Hardly anyone. Turn this thing on and you get huge. It's a red alarm that more damage is being dealt, instead of simply a sound effect and muted visible effect, like when Irelia's W turns on. Even Malph's W has a smaller visible effect.
The crazy thing is that we don't know for sure if they'll even keep it!
So in memory or preparation, let's do some number crunching on the AP for everyone's favorite (hah) summoner spell, Surge! Here's a chart showing the number of bonus AP gained for 12 seconds when using Surge, with Ignite compared next to it.
| Level | Surge AP Bonus | Surge AP Bonus with mastery | Total Ignite Damage |
| 1 | 10 | 11 | 70 |
| 2 | 14 | 15.4 | 90 |
| 3 | 18 | 19.8 | 110 |
| 4 | 22 | 24.2 | 130 |
| 5 | 26 | 28.6 | 150 |
| 6 | 30 | 33 | 170 |
| 7 | 34 | 37.4 | 190 |
| 8 | 38 | 41.8 | 210 |
| 9 | 42 | 46.2 | 230 |
| 10 | 46 | 50.6 | 250 |
| 11 | 50 | 55 | 270 |
| 12 | 54 | 59.4 | 290 |
| 13 | 58 | 63.8 | 310 |
| 14 | 62 | 68.2 | 330 |
| 15 | 66 | 72.6 | 350 |
| 16 | 70 | 77 | 370 |
| 17 | 74 | 81.4 | 390 |
| 18 | 78 | 85.8 | 410 |
Strictly AP (Examples: Anivia and Karthus)
For starters the ratio of AP to damage starts at 6.36 at level 1 and ends at 4.78, assuming you got the offensive mastery, and you should if you're taking this ability. At level 18 then, to get the damage equivalent of an ignite you need to have 4.78 points of damage per AP showing. The ratios will really need to stack with 12 seconds, then, eh? And that's at level 18! Again, if you use spells with the equivalent of 4.78 AP in ratios within 12 seconds, you will equal 410 damage. At a lower level it's even harsher. Oh, and ignite's damage is true damage, and it also reduces healing effects for 5 seconds. So, add a percentage on top of that because your magic damage will be reduced.
A nicely landed Anivia Q and E have 1.0 AP. That's just 2. Her AOE has .25. Doesn't seem worth it, does it? If her Q hits two people perfectly, that's still 3.25. Maybe we should think AOE instead.
Karthus' ult has .6. If he hits all 5, that's 3. His AOE E has .25, and his Q is .6 single target and .3 two targets. At level 6 the ratio is 5.15. This means if he ults 5 people after he surges, he needs to get in just 2.15 more AP ratio's worth of damage. That's 9 ticks of his E, 4 single large Q's, or 7 targets total in a multi-hit lay waste within 12 seconds, or, say, 2 ticks of Defile on two people plus 2 lay wastes on 2 people. (2 x 2 x .25) + (.3 x 2 x 2). The more it surpasses it, the more Surge helps.
Remember to add 10-50% for all of the MR that reduces the damage done. If you don't have the penetration, it just isn't going to work.
Oh, and we have to get Karthus as our example to even make it work. Most AP champs do not have this kind of opportunity to repeat a lot aoe spells in 12 seconds. Cassiopeia might also work...
Strictly Attack Speed (Example: Graves)
With the mastery, you get 40% attack speed for the 12 seconds. That's a big boost. Graves' E gives him 40-80% from levels 1-5 for 5 seconds. Graves' base attack speed is .638 the addition of 40% AS makes for an increase of .255 attacks per seconds. At 12 seconds, if he is attacking nonstop the whole time (unlikely), he'll get three full additional attacks. Some nice footwork and he'll get two more. This doesn't take into the account the ability to move and shoot as AS gives you, which is also nice, but remember, we're comparing it to a ignite, which does not require us to stay.
At level 1, you have to deal more than 70 damage with your additional auto-attacks. At level 18, it has to be more than 410.
Pretty much junk.
Both (Examples: Corki and Jax)
Unlike Graves, Corki has some magic spells he'll be using. If he gets out one bomb and two non-big one missiles on two people each, that's (.5 x 1) + (.3 x 2 x 2) for 1.7 x the AP given from Surge. At level 6, ignite is 170, and Surge is 33. 33 x 1.7 for 56.1 extra magic damage. That's only 114 extra damage from auto-attacks he'd have to get in.
Jax's magic damage is all single target. Q, W, and E have AP ratios of .6, .6, and .7. At level 6, if Jax uses all of them and gets two of his third explosive hits in, that's 2.6 x 33 for 85.8. He'd have to get an extra 84 damage off of auto-attacks to equal an ignite.
Remember though: no healing reduction and the damage isn't true, it's facing armor and MR.
Why you don't take Surge Unless You're Trolling
Surge isn't good because it relies heavily on continued damage for it to be effective. Most fights are hit and run, not outright spammed damage. Few champions use AP and attack speed both. Few times can you manage to get enough AP use to get an ignite off. Under AOE circumstances, Surge will deal more damage in team fights. Why pick the right champ and play harder to capitalize on it? And what about the fact that most of the game isn't teamfights?
So yeah, in case you were wondering: Surge his horrible. This is why.
I seriously ask: was this ability tested? Was the math done on it? What were they thinking?
Best,
Old Man Eyebrows
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Posted 11/13/2012 3:22:48 PMHowever, It's not Moot... Because we've given you real world applications and examples of when Surge beats Ignite... It's not purely theoretical, it's proven... Surge can and will increase your DPS more than Ignite on certain champions... Therefore it's Niche, Surge is by no means Moot... It doesn't have to be consistantly applicable in order to be relevant...
For example: Sometimes Getting a 2nd PD is better than getting a LW on Vayne... That doesn't mean that all AD carries benefit more from IE, PD, PD than IE, PD, LW... It simply means that occasionally IE, PD, PD is a viable option on this specific champion... Theres a real world applicaion in which IE, PD, PD is better than IE, PD, LW...
There are specific examples of when and how Surge can be a better option than Ignite... These examples are few, but they exist... They don't come up often, but when they do, you'll benefit more from Surge than Ignite, how is that irrelevant? Yes, it's hard to gain the full benefit of Surge for the full duration of 12 seconds in a normal team-fight, it's hard, but not impossible... And you don't need to benefit from the full duration in order for your DPS to pass that of Ignite...
These days 3 roles usually run Ignite (Mid, Bot, Top) you realize the DeBuff doesn't stack, right? In refreshes the DoT, it doesn't amplify it... An Ignite could easily be applied to the same target by two different team members. therefore your Ignite didn't deal 410 true damage, but perhaps only 250 true damage... Surge will almost always beat that...
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Posted 11/13/2012 10:20:43 PMYou have given me a solid analogy and I commend you by conceding a point: There can be relevance and it is therefore not moot. At least not until the spell is removed in S3 (your original counter-statement).
I however can't ignore the fact that evidence for the larger argument (Surge>Ignite) has been fairly weak, including the original post by OldManEyeBrows (another earlier statement that I made needs to be retracted as well). The evidence has either been pretty subjective (I use it on X champion and I do fine with it) or in one case given inconsistent comparisons (Surge will do more damage then Ignite against towers or creep waves). The one time I was presented with hard objective evidence (Vunjo's example) it was riddled with, in my opinion, some faults:
1) His math is wrong (This I find kinda humorous since he cites a source with the equation and an example to illustrate). He incorrectly calculated ending Attack Speed and made some of his conclusion based on this error. Using numbers from the Wiki and his base model of lvl 9 Master Yi:
Master Yi's base attack speed is .679. He gains 2.98% per level for 8 levels (level 1 is not included) for a total of 23.84%. 25% from Zerker Greaves. 40% from Highlander. 50% from Youmuu's Active. Bonuses are additive so 25+40+50+23.84 = 138.84%. Masteried Surge gives 40% for a total of 178.84%. Calculation for each is:
Without Surge:
.679 * (100%+138.84%)-> .679 * 238.84%-> .679 * 2.3884= 1.622 (Game rounds to 3 points)
With Surge:
.679 * (100%+178.84%)-> .679 * 278.84%-> .679 * 2.7884= 1.894
Not the best quality but a screenshot nonetheless: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/pheonixfire000/YiAttackSpeed.jpg
This is actually only a 16.7% increase, not 18%. If AD remains the same then without surge: 213 * 1.622 = 345.486. Applying Surge would increase damage by 57.69. Ignite is 46 DPS. That gap just got smaller.
2) There is some exaggeration that is creating some false emphasis. At level 9, having both a Youmuu's and a Brutalizer with Zerk's means you have almost 5k gold. Not saying that's impossible, it just comes off as pretty far-fetched. And saying 66 armor pen at level 9 is "far more than most players have" is pure hyperbole. Master Yi himself at level 9 has about 50 from just base. Throw in armor seals and the armor mastery (both easily met conditions) and he has close to 69 armor. Sure he has only 3 armor remaining, but the fact it's there and is higher can invalidate his statement. This ties into my last problem:
3) He uses a Goldfish Opponent. I remember using this term when I played Magic: The Gathering. Essentially you played a solitaire game with your deck against an imaginary opponent that just passed his turn and did nothing else. Sure you could see how your deck could play on each of it's turns, but you were ignoring human interaction and reaction. Not a really good way to test something. It's like looking at something in a vacuum. He tries to build on his argument by adding that crit and more ad make the number bigger, but he ignores how additional armor will reduce the number. OldManEyeBrows tries to eliminate this by looking at skeleton numbers, but I don't feel that's a proper way to look at it either. If I was to use the Yi example then lets say his opponent buys Ninja Tabi (Something easily doable by level 9 even if you were to goldfish in the game). Ninja Tabi not only has 25 armor, but it lowers auto-attacks by 10%. According to the wiki this stacks multiplicatively with armor, so I believe the calculation would look like this:
25 armor -> 100/125 = .8 -> 20% physical damage reduction
(1-.2)*(1-.1) = .72 or 28% physical damage reduction.
Here's where I might mess up so please correct me if I'm wrong but given the previous Yi example:
213*.72=153.36*1.622 =248.749 (I think this is how you would calculate it since you reduce the damage then factor attack speed, I could be wrong). If Surge increases damage by 16.7% like I said before then Surge is only increasing your damage by 41.54. Ignite is still 46.
Can you see how I'm having trouble being truly convinced? Yes, I have been presented with examples from both sides, but I find them all to be fairly weak or inconsistent. So even if evidence is thrown at me, I shouldn't just take it at face value and automatically assume a certain truth or falsehood. You yourself have given what could be considered better objective reasoning then anything else presented and you still come up with a middle ground/neutral answer, so I hope you can see where I'm coming from in this perspective.
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Posted 11/14/2012 12:42:32 AMIt's problems like this that make me wish LoL had a test mode for champions / builds.
I used to play a shit load of a french MMORPG called Dofus. This game had the standard characteristics to put points into and items to wear for extra stats etc, but weapons used to have the greatest effect on your DPS (at least from auto-attacks). There were areas dotted all around the game world that contained 'Dojo's' which basically had high HP punching bags in them. So, you could experiment with new items and builds till your heart was content just beating up on these 'poutches'.
We could really do with something like this in LoL as it could use the exact and up-to-date patch information / damage formulas and would make situational testing so much easier. (Sure, it would make a lot of the excellent math crafting on sites like this pretty obsolete, but it would mean a huge majority of the player base could experiment much more successfully).
Riot pls! Let us create custom games (no need to even be a proper game mode, since there is no winner/loser) with 1-5 players where you have unlimited gold and can test whatever builds you want on static targets with various resistances. All you need is a mechanic similar to a death re-cap to give us the info we are always looking for. This could be expanded in so many useful ways...
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Posted 11/14/2012 1:27:55 PMHonorable comment, I must say that. I am shocked that someone actually took the task to calculate it on his own. Congratulations for that.
But...I'm sure I have listed another thing, search for the quote on your own, but these were my words "I have forgot to implement the double strike passive, and critical strike damage, so my calculations are wrong, but are actually higher in result than it is at the moment". So the damage is as following:
212 AD. 15% crit chance, given the fact that critical strike deals 210% damage (100% + 100% + 10% mastery point), we can easly use the following formula:
New Attack Damage = (Attack Damage x (1 - Crit Chance)) +(Attack Damage * Crit Chance * Crit Damage)
Making it a total of 246.98 => 247
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Double Strike can just increase the overall damage output by 8/7 => 14.28%, since in the time of 7 attacks, Yi will strike 8 times.
Which makes the damage go up to 282.28 instead. The best part? It's the damage, not DPS :>
I see that I have made a mistake in calculating attack speeds now. But, you made a slight mistake too. You forgotten the 4% attack speed bonus from mastery :)
So I'll just apply those 4% into your calculations:
Without Surge: 1.64
With Surge: 1.92
Which makes it 17% difference in DPS (It's just silly, but I think you were way too confident, nice try though).
Which adds up to 78.69 -> 79 bonus Physical DPS.
So your maths weren't correct either, yet you didn't see it like I mentioned in posts few days ago, where I clearly said that I have forgotten to imply certain factors (I might still be missing few of them). Let's get to your points now.
2.) I hate to use this term, but it's simply based on my user experience. If you haven't tried Surge as much as I use it, then I suppose it's hard to counter this one. Early in the game, when enemy jungler comes to our lanes (I lane as AD Carry along with a support), and let's say that I might be level 6 by that time. If so, given certain factors, but cause of Surge and clearly overspamming Q to champions, I end up having a triple kill. But since this is asks for too many factors, let's just say, surge grants me early game double kill in ~85% of games.
The above point: If I'm level 9, it does not mean the enemy team is also filled with level 9 champions. I'm usually at least 2 levels (a lot of times even more) higher than them. This makes them have less armor.
Another point: They do not gain that much armor like you said, because Master Yi has actually quite high base armor, and armor gain, making your post invalid.
+ Even if they somehow manage to reach the given armor penetration, in the season 3, which this is the point of course, to have a possibility that Riot should keep Surge in season 3. Maths change. Rotation of calculating Armor Penetration changes. The % armor penetration comes first. Because of the 10% from Mastery point, it now allows them to have up to 73 armor, at pretty low levels, considering that Surge grants me overall much higher level improvement than the others gain. Given the fact that it won't and does not happen in most cases, I assume I was right.
Another point, the rotation of my focus is simple, kill the tanks last, or my last focus is one with Ninja Tabi.
Since this was actually all seen from my games, my Master Yi with my builds, I'm pretty confident that all I say here simply gets accepted, bringing pictures here is just silly since everyone can see my scores in LoL if anyone cares to see them though.
Another, and far biggest wrong part of your post. The overall damage from my calculations if first post was not around 70, but around 160. Despite Master Yi being mainly based on Attack Damage, when given such power, his Alpha Strike is devastating, and I dare saying in some cases deal more damage (Well, in this one the DPS was higher). Not to mention that the time I took was 10 seconds, in reality, because of the overall high DPS, it's much lower, based that the team is fighting as well, I'm sure the enemies melt in 6 seconds, which overall makes the Alpha Strike DPS increased by 67%. Now I'm just inserting approximations, but:
If the Alpha Strike DPS was about 92.4, then given by my game plays, and pretty much this position, is increased to 154.3, which when added to physical DPS, is up to 233.3 bonus DPS given from Surge.
Which makes, in this case, Surge > Ignite by 507%.
Well played, but you have forgotten a mastery point, so don't brag about anything without being apsolutely sure, or at least, saying that there might be a mistake or 2. Indeed, I did some mistakes with the physical damage calculations, but I have said so in the posts after it.
Your main mistake was the fact that you forgot the godlike Alpha Strike. How did you even start the physical calculation point, and yet, even say that "46 Ignite damage is stronger than 41.54 Surge damage" If you forgot the highest DPS gain of the Surge, used by Alpha Strike?
EDIT: I think I also mentioned that I was out of this conversation, clearly because people can't give any reasonable arguments that can completely throw my theories to pieces, but this post, your post, just gave me the inspiration to join. I consider being out now.
Talking about perspectives, sure, you can't use Surge on champions like Ryze, or a lot of other mages. But that's not how you can counter it's power. It's used by fewer champions, but results are much higher, as you can see that.
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Posted 11/14/2012 11:21:27 PMAlright, lets just do it like this and end it here.
It's fairly insulting to think so little of everyone you come into contact with. You can get off your high horse and walk from here.
Fair enough, we can factor in crit chance and possible dps increase from double strike. very doable.
I didn't forget it, I just didn't include it. My original intent was to recalculate the numbers based on the example you originally gave us, and you yourself did not include or list the 4% mastery so neither did I. I didn't want to muddy the waters if you will.
What? How was I too confident? 1.894/1.622 = 1.167 or a 16.7% increase. Your numbers come out to a 17% increase. How was I too confident? Was it because I didn't round up? Excuse me for not wanting to "stretch the truth".
No. My math was correct. You just redid it adding more numbers. This does not make my math incorrect, especially since it's based off numbers You originally gave (which didn't previously include crit chance or double strike)
I really don't want to go through all 100+ champs so Ill just show this:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions'_armor
Master Yi's base armor and armor per level is maybe above average. The range is really wide so the total probably falls around 15 and his is 16.3. Armor per lvl ranges from 2.7 to 4. Master Yi's is 3.7. Sure that's pretty high, but its probably safe to assume average is around 3. Even if they only get to lvl 7 that's still 21 additional armor. Flat armor yellows and the Armor mastery add about 19, so that's about 40 bonus armor. If the average base is about 15 then on average a level 7 champ will have 55 armor. Sure 66 armor pen trumps that, but that's the highest flat pen you are going to get. Armor keeps going up and then you have to rely on %pen and then their armor keeps going up and the waters just keep getting muddier.
No, the point was to show Surge damage increase over Ignite damage increase. Your making a straw man fallacy. Season 3 has no relevance over this since we aren't in Season 3 (I conceded that point to TreeBurrow already). Not to mention they aren't keeping Surge in Season 3.
I used Ninja Tabi to demonstrate how an 800g item throws a monkey wrench into the claims. It worked. Based off the correct math I calculated using the Original information you gave us and looking at auto attack damage, Ninja Tabi effectively lowered bonus damage from Surge below or at least at the level of Ignite. Other Armor items can be bought and armor items are not restricted to the tank. AD Carries buy Guardian Angel, someone on the team has Aegis of the Legion, AP carries buy Zhonya's, Sona and Taric exists. If I was to apply only Ninja Tabi to your new numbers then the end result is 56.88 bonus damage. That's a lot of variables for 10 extra damage.
Alpha Strike is such a pain to calculate it's total dps since the targets are random. If you are fighting in a lane near creep waves you can't control where it goes. The only reliable way to calculate its damage is just look at your initial target, the one you Alpha Striked on. At that point Surge is only giving you a bonus at level 9 of 42 damage. Sure it CAN give you 168 bonus damage, but that's if all the strikes hit champions. And casting it 5 times? Your assuming a pentakill in you calculations? Something that has a 1 in 1500 chance of happening? And you are going to calculate it in? That is a pretty big stretch. Show some humility and say you cast Alpha Strike once and hit 1 champ, that is really the only way to ensure the damage increase is calculated accurately (to an extent) and then reduce that number by 23% (30 MR something that is unavoidable). And then first your using 10 sec fight time, and then 6 sec fight time for DPS. You use Alpha Strike. It does damage. 1 sec of damage. Just like how we were calculating physical damage. If this is the case then against your primary target (the one guaranteed to take damage) then Surge increases it by 42 at lvl 9.
Once again, I was showing a flaw in your calculations. I re-calculated based on the numbers YOU gave us to show this flaw. That was all I was intending to do with that first part, was show the mistake you made and correct it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Key Word: Physical. First off, Alpha Strike is magic damage. It's not improper to ignore it when you are calculating Physical Damage increase. Second off, I was not wrong because based off the calculations (once again, using the original data you gave us) my numbers added up. Of course my original numbers are going to look wrong when you throw in more variables and increase the numbers. Why wouldn't they? Your trying to discredit me after the fact. You can't order a Cheeseburger and when you are given one say "What are you stupid? I wanted a fish sandwich!"
It's kinda hard to counter a Shotgun Argument. If you keep throwing more and more variables into the mix it's going to get too complicated. This is called Proof by Verbosity in which you essentially beat some one down with information in an attempt to make something so complicated, your opponent has no will left to untangle the mess. Your then left with a heaping pile of an argument that people are obliged to agree with it simply because they don't want to deal with it.
I'm left to wonder if it's lonely up on your pedestal.
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Posted 11/11/2012 11:25:26 AMI'll quote myself here:
0.86 from the base attack speed, which makes up to: +25% from boots, +40% from Highlander, and +50% from Youmuu's Ghostblade. Making it +115% attack speed. The resulting attack speed equals 1.849 attacks per second. Along with Surge, which makes it 155% attack speed bonus, it's increased to 2.193 attacks per second.
It's also clearly seen here that the difference between those attack speeds should be around 40% of base Yi's attack speed, like you mentioned.
I haven't seen any part of my post that says 40% attack speed equals 40% bonus DPS. Indeed, I wrote that attack speed may be better at start, and perhaps a bit weaker in the end, but it's not meant to be restricted by numbers, but their ratio is the best used in the beginning. Imagine the following situation, 0% attack speed bonus, then getting 40% boost from surge. Overall attack speed ratio, is 140% to 100%, which is clearly 40% improvement. On the other hand, if we're talking about mid/end game, let's say there are attack speeds, 200%, and 240% from Surge. The ratio here, is different. It's now not 40% improvement, but 20%. This simply approves that attack speed bonus from Surge is used the best in the beginning. However, that does not point that Surge's damage is lower than Ignite's damage end game, and my calculations have proved it so. If there's 354% damage improvement (Which is actually wrong, I forgot to input 15% crit chance, and 8 hits for 7 attacks from Double Strike, making it even better ratio/improvement), it's obvious that the damage from Surge can still be much higher than from Ignite's. Also, we can see the following clearly:
Attack Speed bonus from Surge is the best at beginning, a bit worse at the end.
While AP bonus is weaker in beginning, but OP in the end.
So the overall damage from Surge will not fall in the game, but will adjust based on the type of Champions. In this case, magical DPS champions will usually have a greater use of it end game. I repeat, even though attack speed bonus may be weaker in ratios in the end of the game, the damage, shown by my maths in the first post, which is actually slightly smaller cause of forgotten Crit and DS, is still far too big compared to Ignite. On the other hand, if my maths are correct, is there anything you can actually say to counter the damage of Surge?
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Posted 11/11/2012 12:15:11 PMWalk away. Crowd control. Kill.
3 ways to counter surge.
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Posted 11/11/2012 3:53:37 PMWalk away. Crowd control. Kill.
3 ways to counter surge.
1. Use Ghost 2. Use Tenacity 3. Life steal/Spell vamp doh? Seriously your arguments are really getting more and more stupid as it goes :O
+ You did not say anything that makes Surge less damage usable than Ignite, since then I'm pretty much sure that your 3 arguments can be used for anything, and anyone. It's too late to cast ignite as well, either the target walked away, or you're CCed, or you're already dead, ignite has same fate as Surge....So please try with reasonable arguments not some random ideas....
Another Edit: Your argument is just another argument that is showing how any kind of buff can be countered (Yi's or Olaf's ulti, Lulu's ulti too, pretty much any sort of buff). I can say the same for ignite, just use some strong heal that will counter the damage dealt even though the heal is reduced by 50%, and done, Ignite can be ignored, but that's just low level of thinking...
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Posted 11/11/2012 7:03:19 PMFirst of all, I agree to an extent... Surge CAN do more damage, but I do still believe it's Niche... Some champions can use it better than others, and yes it CAN lead to dealing more damage in SOME situations... But not all situations... I often buy ExCa when I play ADC, so Grevious Wounds isn't a huge deal in my opinion... And yes, your math shows that it is possible to deal more damage with Surge, however I also agree with clutz1 in the sense that Surge is easier to shut down than Ignite... Yes, all champions can be countered by CC or walking away... However, Ignite is instant, you only need to be in range for 1 second to automatically deal 410 true damage to the target... Whereas with surge, you'll need to be within range for a lot longer period of time... Some champions can pull this off time and time again, some people are amazing at positioning and can stay at a same distance while also un-leashing a huge amount of damage, but this takes skill to pull off, and if you Surge during a team-fight, you make yourself an even bigger target... Yes, you can pull it off, the numbers are there, Surge is viable, you've proven that... However, in a real game situation, you're not always going to be able to stay in range of the preferred target...
You can Ignite and Walk away, still dealing 410 True damage, but in order to deal that much extra damage with Surge, you have to be much better at positioning yourself... Ignite is safer, it's damage is guaranteed... Surge can be baited a lot easier... It's like Youmuu's, great if you can time it right, great if you're good at positioning... But otherwise, not the best option...
Surge is great, But so is Ignite... The difference is, Surge has the potential to deal more damage, whereas Ignite is Guarantee'd to deal the same amount of damage each time, no matter what... It takes less skill to Ignite someone than to Surge and Auto-attack for a full 7-12 seconds... Therefore Surge is the riskier option...
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Posted 11/12/2012 3:36:31 AMFinally an acceptable comment.
Of course it's easier to cast Ignite than Surge, but as I have given in the example, I play Master Yi a lot, and my very first item after boots is Youmuu's Ghostblade, which means I can stay on the target for quite some time. Surge can do deffinetly more damage if used correctly like you said. My main point of the post was not to show how to use Surge properly, but to show that Surge's damage is far better than Ignite's if used properly. I remember many games where my Surge won many teamfights, and also granting triple kills +.
For TL;DR: Surge apsolutely deals much higher damage if used correctly. Ignite is much easier to use and is directly better at some situations. The point of my post was to show how overpowered and well used Surge can be, having up to 5 times higher damage, and the point was not to show which is better at certain situations, nor which is more easly countered.
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Posted 11/12/2012 6:48:53 PMWhat about the DPS ignite vs Surge?
One thing I want to note: It isnt necessary true that Surge has to fall off in the lategame for AS:
1. Fights tend to be shorter earlygame with usually max 3 champions. Full duration won't be used most of the time.
2. While the AS bonus stays the same, the crit and damage isn't. More AD = more bonus damage for the same AS (correct me if I am wrong). Plus, Surge/AS just sclaes extremly good with IE's skyrocketing cause of it's passive.
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Posted 11/11/2012 3:23:27 AMVunjo, just read the first part of your post (yet), but you are wrong, not in the mathematics but in the mechanics. AS+ is calculated at the champion's BASE AS. If you got Graves wtih 0.625 AS (didnt check, just take some numbers right now) +50% will ALWAYS result in a bonus AS of 0.3125. It doesnt matter if you got 4x 50% AS or just 1x 50% - The 50% bonus will be the same everytime (.3125 in this example).
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Posted 11/11/2012 3:22:28 AM-
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Posted 11/11/2012 3:21:51 AM-
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Posted 11/10/2012 3:26:53 PMYou obviously are not familiar with basics of maths, nor with how league of legends calculates damage done, are you?
Well then, let me show you the power of surge.
Surge gives 40% attack speed at all levels, and increasing ability power by level, as you have shown it with your AP table. I'll do it your way, restrict it by usage of different types of champions.
AD Carries
For AD Carries, their main source of damage is attack damage of course. Some of their spells may or may not depend on the ability power. If they do, I can clearly say the following: Surge gives them 40% bonus damage. 40% attack speed along with 10-78 AP shows the result. If AD Carries' damage is pretty much ~60% basic attacks, and ~40% by using spells, then it's clearly seen that 40% attack speed boost is major improvement.
You can see how to calculate attack speed in here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_speed
Of course, even AD Carries can use that AP bonus, cause of their spells which actually deal a lot of damage. For example, I'm sure good one would be Kog Maw, who's considered to be AD Carry, even though all of his spells are based on AP. Kog Maw's first 2 spells show that he's based on attack speed, and magical damage (% bonus damage of maximum health). Surge, increases both of those stats. Just because you probably haven't seen how Kog Maw can be overpowered with Surge, (good enough for early games triple kill+), doesn't mean it's a bad spell. If used early game, surge gives minor attack speed, but rounding the numbers up will fix it. If at that point, surge gives 46 AP, the game should round it up, so his 2. spell, deals 1% of maximum health more damage with each attack, making him instantly stronger, along with the bonus 40% attack speed, which is a huge result.
Another reason why Surge is not used often, it's because people like you don't even know the basics of DPS, nor maths to be honest. While Surge is one of the most under-used spells, there's another champion attribute that is also under-used. You guessed it, it's the armor penetration. Of course you can't expect to see damage caused by Surge, if players can't even build proper items, and proper attribute points. My games as Master Yi always end up with following stat: 66 Armor penetration (quite simple maths, 25 from quintessences, and marks, 6 from masteries, 20 from Youmuu's Ghostblade, and 15 from Brutalizer) at very early game. At that time, if I'm quite fed to have those 2 items early game, my damage actually counts as "true damage", like you used for Ignite. Now, let's begin with the calculations:
Ignite's damage at level 9, (which is far from level 1 where you mentioned that Surge's damage is only then stronger than Ignite's), deals only 230 damage. If you ever heard what DPS (Damage Per Second) is, then you know that it deals 46 true damage per second. I'm free of saying "true damage" for now, since I have calculated that 66 armor penetration, which is far more than most players have. Master Yi with only 2 those items has 212 damage. You're wandering how probably, well... 83.02 from base leveled Yi, 3 from mastery base points, and 1.125 from the other mastery point, 70 from activated Wuju Style, 30 from Youmuu's Ghostblade, 25 from Brutalizer.
Total of 212 Attack Damage. Master Yi's attack speed then is (if counting boots):
0.86 from the base attack speed, which makes up to: +25% from boots, +40% from Highlander, and +50% from Youmuu's Ghostblade. Making it +115% attack speed. The resulting attack speed equals 1.849 attacks per second. Along with Surge, which makes it 155% attack speed bonus, it's increased to 2.193 attacks per second.
Results: 18% higher DPS.
Master Yi's DPS without Surge, then equals:
213 x 1.849 = 393 Single target DPS. Since the bonus DPS from Surge equals 18% in this case, the result is a total of 70.89 DPS increasement. Compare it to Ignite, which is better now? And I picked a single AD Carry (Master Yi is ADC, deal with it), who is not Hybrid, and does not use complete power from Surge.
So we're comparing 71 DPS to 46 DPS, when used properly, for AD Carries, which are not specially designed for using Surge.
The result from these, give a total of 18% bonus DPS only by calculating the attack speed part, not to mention that his Alpha Strike, which may hit multiple times depending on the kill count during that fight, will also deal much more damage (up to 231 x 4) damage, 46.2 is AP bonus, casted 5 times, 4 targets, if you happen to make a penta kill and/or have decent cooldown reduction, which my build actually has from Youmuu's Ghostblade and Brutalizer.
The overall damage from Alpha Strike is Increased by 924. It's enough that if the killing was made in 10 seconds, which is actually a whole lot of time, it grants yet another, 92.4 DPS.
So with Master Yi, at level 9, with certain items, the results are, Surge compared to Ignite, is 163.39 to 46; which is 3.54 times stronger than Ignite.
Do I need to go on, or have my maths just proved the power of Surge? Since it's a bit of late here, I'll end it soon, with few notes. When used by AD Carries, Surge is still a greater tool than Ignite, if used properly, with decent runes and/or items. AP champions (Mages) do not require Surge, though it may help them. The result will probably end up that Ignite deals more damage than Surge when it comes to Mages, but let's face it, the main power of Surge is the Attack speed bonus, which Mages do not use. Besides, land 1 AoE spell, with 1 x AP Ratio, that hits up to 5 units, then you already have the damage of Ignite, and it's dealt in less than a second. So again, even some Mages can have a greater use of Surge, than Ignite. This is not a constant though, it's highly dependable on each Mage Champion.
After having 3.5 times more damage with Surge than Ignite on an ADC like Master Yi, it's just silly to calculate how high the damage would be when using a Hybrid Champion, or even better, magical DPS Champion, like Teemo or Kayle. I dare saying that results would be at least 5 times better for picking Surge. So, before posting a thread like this, try to see how to calculate basics of things, and understand what is DPS.