Here's Lookin' At You
When Season 2 rolled around they brought out a new summoner spell, Surge. Remember that spell? It sure is not popular! In todays' meta, on-hit effects, attack-speed, and trying to get in a lot of auto attacks don't fit, and they haven't for a long time. Also, who uses both attack speed and AP? Hardly anyone. Turn this thing on and you get huge. It's a red alarm that more damage is being dealt, instead of simply a sound effect and muted visible effect, like when Irelia's W turns on. Even Malph's W has a smaller visible effect.
The crazy thing is that we don't know for sure if they'll even keep it!
So in memory or preparation, let's do some number crunching on the AP for everyone's favorite (hah) summoner spell, Surge! Here's a chart showing the number of bonus AP gained for 12 seconds when using Surge, with Ignite compared next to it.
| Level | Surge AP Bonus | Surge AP Bonus with mastery | Total Ignite Damage |
| 1 | 10 | 11 | 70 |
| 2 | 14 | 15.4 | 90 |
| 3 | 18 | 19.8 | 110 |
| 4 | 22 | 24.2 | 130 |
| 5 | 26 | 28.6 | 150 |
| 6 | 30 | 33 | 170 |
| 7 | 34 | 37.4 | 190 |
| 8 | 38 | 41.8 | 210 |
| 9 | 42 | 46.2 | 230 |
| 10 | 46 | 50.6 | 250 |
| 11 | 50 | 55 | 270 |
| 12 | 54 | 59.4 | 290 |
| 13 | 58 | 63.8 | 310 |
| 14 | 62 | 68.2 | 330 |
| 15 | 66 | 72.6 | 350 |
| 16 | 70 | 77 | 370 |
| 17 | 74 | 81.4 | 390 |
| 18 | 78 | 85.8 | 410 |
Strictly AP (Examples: Anivia and Karthus)
For starters the ratio of AP to damage starts at 6.36 at level 1 and ends at 4.78, assuming you got the offensive mastery, and you should if you're taking this ability. At level 18 then, to get the damage equivalent of an ignite you need to have 4.78 points of damage per AP showing. The ratios will really need to stack with 12 seconds, then, eh? And that's at level 18! Again, if you use spells with the equivalent of 4.78 AP in ratios within 12 seconds, you will equal 410 damage. At a lower level it's even harsher. Oh, and ignite's damage is true damage, and it also reduces healing effects for 5 seconds. So, add a percentage on top of that because your magic damage will be reduced.
A nicely landed Anivia Q and E have 1.0 AP. That's just 2. Her AOE has .25. Doesn't seem worth it, does it? If her Q hits two people perfectly, that's still 3.25. Maybe we should think AOE instead.
Karthus' ult has .6. If he hits all 5, that's 3. His AOE E has .25, and his Q is .6 single target and .3 two targets. At level 6 the ratio is 5.15. This means if he ults 5 people after he surges, he needs to get in just 2.15 more AP ratio's worth of damage. That's 9 ticks of his E, 4 single large Q's, or 7 targets total in a multi-hit lay waste within 12 seconds, or, say, 2 ticks of Defile on two people plus 2 lay wastes on 2 people. (2 x 2 x .25) + (.3 x 2 x 2). The more it surpasses it, the more Surge helps.
Remember to add 10-50% for all of the MR that reduces the damage done. If you don't have the penetration, it just isn't going to work.
Oh, and we have to get Karthus as our example to even make it work. Most AP champs do not have this kind of opportunity to repeat a lot aoe spells in 12 seconds. Cassiopeia might also work...
Strictly Attack Speed (Example: Graves)
With the mastery, you get 40% attack speed for the 12 seconds. That's a big boost. Graves' E gives him 40-80% from levels 1-5 for 5 seconds. Graves' base attack speed is .638 the addition of 40% AS makes for an increase of .255 attacks per seconds. At 12 seconds, if he is attacking nonstop the whole time (unlikely), he'll get three full additional attacks. Some nice footwork and he'll get two more. This doesn't take into the account the ability to move and shoot as AS gives you, which is also nice, but remember, we're comparing it to a ignite, which does not require us to stay.
At level 1, you have to deal more than 70 damage with your additional auto-attacks. At level 18, it has to be more than 410.
Pretty much junk.
Both (Examples: Corki and Jax)
Unlike Graves, Corki has some magic spells he'll be using. If he gets out one bomb and two non-big one missiles on two people each, that's (.5 x 1) + (.3 x 2 x 2) for 1.7 x the AP given from Surge. At level 6, ignite is 170, and Surge is 33. 33 x 1.7 for 56.1 extra magic damage. That's only 114 extra damage from auto-attacks he'd have to get in.
Jax's magic damage is all single target. Q, W, and E have AP ratios of .6, .6, and .7. At level 6, if Jax uses all of them and gets two of his third explosive hits in, that's 2.6 x 33 for 85.8. He'd have to get an extra 84 damage off of auto-attacks to equal an ignite.
Remember though: no healing reduction and the damage isn't true, it's facing armor and MR.
Why you don't take Surge Unless You're Trolling
Surge isn't good because it relies heavily on continued damage for it to be effective. Most fights are hit and run, not outright spammed damage. Few champions use AP and attack speed both. Few times can you manage to get enough AP use to get an ignite off. Under AOE circumstances, Surge will deal more damage in team fights. Why pick the right champ and play harder to capitalize on it? And what about the fact that most of the game isn't teamfights?
So yeah, in case you were wondering: Surge his horrible. This is why.
I seriously ask: was this ability tested? Was the math done on it? What were they thinking?
Best,
Old Man Eyebrows
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Posted 10/31/2012 7:06:46 PMIf Kog'Maw uses Cleanse, it is probably so he can Flash and reposition. Pretty rare that he would use it to continue dealing DPS (he was probably out of position or got dived and left alone). Surge gives you AS and and extra dmg (even on your auto-attacks), if you use this when you are in a good position it really does provide a huge boost to your DPS (1% may not sound that huge, but remember it is on every hit, with 2+ AS, you'll proc that a lot of times in a team fight if you position well). Not saying Surge is better than Cleanse, again they are clearly situational, just saying if you do not feel like you need Cleanse/Exhaust/Heal against the enemy team then, Surge is a very viable offensive summoner on Kog'Maw. I find myself taking Cleanse and Exhaust most often, but Surge when I am not afraid of CC or divers.
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Posted 10/31/2012 12:32:24 AMWhy are people talking about things like Surge+ignite? That is not a thing. Flash is mandatory on most champs, and the champs that don't absolutely need benefit super strongly from ghost.
Thus, surge is replacing ignite/cleanse/heal/exhaust. Ignite will secure more kills earlygame, is decent late vs. certain champs, but its an earlygame kill spell and is REALLY good at that. Exhaust is a DPS and speed debuff. You can use it to get a kill OR kite, its better than surge in dueling situations, it can be used to escape ganks. Heal is heal, its kinda good for baiting and can turn some fights, cleanse is niche, but can stop fight-turning CC.
So lets say I happen to be Jax, Kayle, Teemo, or Corki. In what situation is surge going to be better than another non-movement summoner? Well, not for bullying and getting early kills, Ignite does that better. If you are afraid of a weak earlygame, exhaust and heal will protect you better. Cleanse will help more vs. Heavy Debuff/cc teams. So, surge will help you when you don't think you can get early kills, don't think you will face early pressure, and won't face lots of lategame CC.
So basically, if you are Jax, vs. a no-cc team with a Katarina jungle and Master YI/Morde/Janna Mid/Top/Support, surge might be a good choice.
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Posted 10/31/2012 11:46:23 PMFlash isn't mandatory on anyone. Its a crutch, a very helpful crutch, but still a crutch. Anyone that used to play dota will tell u that. CC is longer and burst is higher, but theres no flash.
Especially a lot of "all In" champs such as Irelia or Jax, Flash is nearly useless, in the sense that most times u would need flash its not going to get u out of it anyway. Or champs that already have a strong escape built in, Corki or Ez are good examples.
Exhaust+ignite is pretty popular on AD carries. Surge+Ignite is the hybrid version of that. Its a niche most players in this game seem to forget.
Double offensive summoners is a playstyle, its all about being aggressive in lane or pumping out damage in teamfights. It doesn't work on every champ, but it does work.
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Posted 10/31/2012 11:55:13 PMFlash and Ghost are both offensive and defensive.
Show me a game where a team won with surge, and I'll show you a game where they would have won harder without surge.
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Posted 11/1/2012 12:01:13 AMIf your looking for a pro game, I couldn't give u one. I run surge+ignite on Kayle everygame I play her, I average somewhere between 70-80% win rate. I think 72% in ranked, but I don't play ranked much. I have a game in my match history, I went 24-14-11. and another where I was 20-9-8
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Posted 11/1/2012 12:10:20 AMSummoner name is F3ls0ng
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Posted 11/1/2012 12:34:36 AMSorry, but games at 1031 ELO that you didn't Hard Carry (In one you had a Kog maw in a 55+ min game, the other you have 165 minions ins a 32 min game) are not convincing.
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Posted 11/1/2012 1:02:13 AMBoth those games the carries fed early, that Kog was 0/8 at around 30min. 165 isn't amazing, but I also had 20 kills... Soooo... w/e
You don't have to take my word for it. But it does work.
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Posted 11/1/2012 1:20:39 AM"Working" is not a useful metric. Sometimes picking Shaco mid works. Sometimes going for it on 4th and 20 from your own 5 yard line works. Sometimes fouling Steve Nash and sending him to the FT line works. BUT THESE ARE ALL BAD STRATEGIES. Just like Surge.
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Posted 11/1/2012 1:54:40 AMI shall rephrase then. IT.FUCKING.RAPES.
Level 1 most champs have about 550 HP, average. 70 damage from ignite, 50ish from Reckoning (after MR), and 70 damage AA (after Armor+MR) every second. means it takes about 4-5 seconds to kill someone level 1. That's close to the highest level 1 DPS in the game. (Surge also nets me 1 whole auto in 6 seconds, which its the same as ignite btw. or 2 wholes autos in 12, altho u wont ever get that.)
Level 18 at medium build (of my build) average about 500 damage AA every .75 seconds ish, Surge takes off roughly .15 seconds off autos. that means I get 3-4 extra autos in 12 seconds. or 2000 damage. Ignite does 410. Almost hitting harder in that timeframe as well. Even worst case I get 2 extra attacks worth in the whole 12 seconds its still 1k.
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Posted 11/1/2012 1:56:47 AMnvm, gustaf did my math for me. its .2-.25 depending on base. so its 1 every 5 seconds. at level 1
or 1 every 3 seconds at 18.
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Posted 11/1/2012 3:59:59 AMGood point. I wont just flash away.
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Posted 11/1/2012 4:18:25 AMAt level 1 that may work. if u blew both at level 1. that's still flash down, and an easy gank.
if not. You get a jungler like Mao do a level 2 or 3 gank. its an instant kill. even with flash.
Team fight time. who cares if 1 person flashes? generally you get jumped on Ulti and go to town. They can flash but often it doesn't matter. Your still pumping out a lot of DPS on whoever is in range.
IF they all flash u won the team fight... so its kind of irrelevant at that point.
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Posted 11/1/2012 2:35:50 PMThat's the flaw on your argument. You're gonna show "one game" after he shows you "another game". The problem is, that's situational. That depends on the team comp of your and your enemies team, also play style and synergy with your team. Why would you use Flash offensively on Annie? To jump in, stun 4 of them and them get burst down by whoever you missed?
I agree that flash is great for some initiation champions like Morgana that can flash, ult and watch them scatter or was 5 flashes because of 1, but some champions just can't do it. Also it's about team comp, if you know your team can keep enemies in their places (morgana + Amumu jungle) why would you need to reposition yourself? You need to deal as much damage as possible on the time they are stunned, and surge can give you at least 20%+ DPS depending on your kit/items.
I play volibear with surge and as Volibear I NEED to stay close to my enemies and as a tank sulk whatever CC they have for me. So why would I flash to run away? Why would I need flash to chase someone I can give 50% slow to them and fling behind me (also chasing with 35% more speed)?
If you know your skills and how/when to use them you will never be out of position, so flash is irrelevant compared with 200 magic damage to each enemy on the TF per hit (12 seconds, 1,7 hits/second, 20 hits, 4000 raw magic damage to EACH enemy).
Flash is waaay too overrated. If you don't know what to use, flash is probably the best choice, but it's not the only one.
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Posted 11/1/2012 3:40:26 PMLOL what? My argument is not based on anecdotal evidence from low ELO games. My argument comes the wealth of knowledge that the high level LOL players have disseminated to the public, and really theory such as the OP.
Flash's re-position is not just for teamfights. One cannot have ubiquitous ward coverage, you can use it to flash over a wall to avoid getting caught out, use it in lane to escape a gank, or use it to secure a kill so your team gets a 4v5 teamfight a few seconds later.
Volibear is a great example of a character that should have ghost for chasing. You pick surge to go with that? Well you are diving the ADCarry or APCarry presumably. That means you are in close which means Exausting a Carry is a better idea than SURGING. Volibear's job is to soak up damage not to do lots of damage.
But go ahead and use surge, I also encourage you to try other great summoners like clarity and revive!