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Quote from clutz1 »

Quote from jim1608 »

That's the flaw on your argument. You're gonna show "one game" after he shows you "another game". The problem is, that's situational. That depends on the team comp of your and your enemies team, also play style and synergy with your team. Why would you use Flash offensively on Annie? To jump in, stun 4 of them and them get burst down by whoever you missed?

I agree that flash is great for some initiation champions like Morgana that can flash, ult and watch them scatter or was 5 flashes because of 1, but some champions just can't do it. Also it's about team comp, if you know your team can keep enemies in their places (morgana + Amumu jungle) why would you need to reposition yourself? You need to deal as much damage as possible on the time they are stunned, and surge can give you at least 20%+ DPS depending on your kit/items.

I play volibear with surge and as Volibear I NEED to stay close to my enemies and as a tank sulk whatever CC they have for me. So why would I flash to run away? Why would I need flash to chase someone I can give 50% slow to them and fling behind me (also chasing with 35% more speed)?

If you know your skills and how/when to use them you will never be out of position, so flash is irrelevant compared with 200 magic damage to each enemy on the TF per hit (12 seconds, 1,7 hits/second, 20 hits, 4000 raw magic damage to EACH enemy).

Flash is waaay too overrated. If you don't know what to use, flash is probably the best choice, but it's not the only one.

LOL what? My argument is not based on anecdotal evidence from low ELO games. My argument comes the wealth of knowledge that the high level LOL players have disseminated to the public, and really theory such as the OP.

Flash's re-position is not just for teamfights. One cannot have ubiquitous ward coverage, you can use it to flash over a wall to avoid getting caught out, use it in lane to escape a gank, or use it to secure a kill so your team gets a 4v5 teamfight a few seconds later. 

Volibear is a great example of a character that should have ghost for chasing. You pick surge to go with that? Well you are diving the ADCarry or APCarry presumably. That means you are in close which means Exausting a Carry is a better idea than SURGING. Volibear's job is to soak up damage not to do lots of damage.

But go ahead and use surge, I also encourage you to try other great summoners like clarity and revive!

So what your saying is your a sheep?

Position spells are good on *some* champs, but a positioning summoner will always be sup par compared to a DPS summoner or a Defensive summoner. EXhaust+Ignite will always be better than Ex+Flash or Ignite+Flash as long as u can position right.

It is Theory that I have proven works to an extent. Ive tested it, Ive seen other people use it. Running an alternate to flash Is almost always better.

The Pro do what works for them, The pros play what they like, what comps they enjoy and obviously what OP.

What pros are doing dpesnt really effect us normal people down here.

Yes, except at your ELO your positioning is 10x worse than pro positioning, so a positioning spell is that much more powerful. 

Im not going to deny that. But you don't know that. and even if it were true, that would make it that much more telling that I can carry without it.

Indeed, quite telling about your opponents: 

They are apparently unable to capitalize on a poorly positioned champ with no escape. 

maybe so. You talk down an awful lot for something you've never really tested.

Oldman, i must say that the whole article was pretty poor generally. 
For a starter, i believe the problem addressed was the wrong one. The issue isnt exactly the summoner spell itself, but instead the variety of champions that can, or should use it; with this im refering to hybrid champions, that mostly dont exist in the game, or the few that exist are rather underwhelming.

With hybrid champions im not refering to those that stack on-hit items like teemos or (pretty much rare) warwicks, but instead champions like jax, old kayle and... i pretty much  find it hard to identify them since, as i said, they dont exist in the game, or perform so poorly that they either get forgotten, or become AP-oriented champions which only have a gunsblade as an heritage of their past (akali comes to mind).

Having a summoner spell that, at level 18, gets 40% AS + 80ish AP for 12 seconds is a really big advantage, but of course that needs champions that can use the whole stats effectively. Jax can and still be viable (in your math you should had considered a lvl18 jax instead imho, and aswell the extra AAs that would come along with the extra AS), Volibear could be a possibility if he could be build hybrid, but then he wouldnt have any resistances in teamfights, i believe kayle was supposed to be a hybrid AA in riots eyes, guess it just didnt cut out, but if it did this summoner spell could had been for her.... and cant list anymore else because it simply there isnt any 'real' hybrids in this game, only ADs, APs and on-hitters....

In my opinion, this article was just plain wrong because it tried to prove the summoner spell is bad by just looking at the stats specifically. The real issue is that there's no champions that can actually use it to its full extend, the hybrid specialization, which doesnt work either because the champions arent good, or the lack of proper items for them (i believe its the main cause..) or its just a class that simply cant cut it in this game, and for that we must congratulate Jax, for being a true grandmaster, for coming into gunfights with just a knife, and still win!

There is nothing wrong with the champs u mentioned.

Kayle is really strong for her role, underplayed Definetly.

Jax is amazing built as a hyrid carry, but hes only ever built Bruiser.

Teemo, never built hybrid.

Elise, is very good Hybrid.

Old Kat was good hybrid.

Akali is still good hybrid, has the highest On-hit scaling period. (because it double dips)

Skarner is decent Hybrid.

Its just a very unpopular Role, and doesn't fit in peoples minds as a meta role. Hybrid Items are cheap for what they do, but don't scale as well as straight AD. Its a mid-game carry/anti-carry.

(Im talking: Guinsoo's, Gunblade, Trinity Force, Cleaver, Madreds< etc..) Hybrids are built around AS, which is just unpopular in general.

it's not unpopular, it's uneffective to build hybrid and/or on-hit items since you will fall off into uselessness quite soon. even kayle builds pretty standard adc items to be effective (and still falls off heavily due to crappy base stats and scaling)

old hybrids worked because they had either built-in additional scaling (kayle/jax) and/or because gunblade was way too strong.

building champs around AS is not unpopular, most ADC do in one way or another (esp. Kog/Vayne).

Its nowhere near ineffective, its just not meta atm. Its best top lane right now, but Its dominated by bruisers. hence underplayed, as well as misunderstood.

im not considering hybrids those that get only 1 AP/AD hybrid item. Akali nowadays only gets gunblade, and goes straight to AP stack, with maybe a lich bane if she has the time to build it. For me thats an AP assassin. Dunno much about elise, but seems more like an AP assassin aswell. (Very) Old kat was either AD(!) or AP + gunblade, just like akali. Skarner indeed can be considered a true (tanky) hybrid, forgot about that one. Jax is still the one that can easily get gunblade + trinity and be good as an hybrid, and kayle pretty much cant work right now as an hybrid.

So in total we can say LoL only has 2 hybrid champions that work, and at least 4 that should be working as hybrid but defenitely cant work it that way, either being underplayed or better played as AP. With this few hybrid champions, in the middle of a 100+ pool of champions, how can we expect a summoner spell like surge to ever be picked? Of course it wont be picked! And its riot's fault, because if they hadnt lost their faith in making hybrid champions and aswell added other items to support them (for example, an hybrid item that could give more AD than AP, and more accessible than a 4000ish G triforce or 3600ish G gunblade).

For example, If i trully wanted to make a hybrid champion, i could only choose between 4 items: Trinity Force, Gunblade, Rageblade and Nashor's Tooth (dat forgotten item...); The 1st two items are too costy, that its not suggested to get both unless you're too fed, Rageblade seems good on paper (and cheaper) but being depended on your autoattacks to reach its full potential will just make it easier for the enemy to get you out of position, adn nashor's tooth, tbh has the same problem as surge summoner spell: good thing, but nobody there to use its full potential. Saying all this, makes us think (at least me) that the hybrid class is very much underappreciated in the game by riot!

it's less effective than any other itemization (ADC or APC) in terms of damage AND tankyness - it's silly to just say "you're wrong and everyone else is wrong!" without at least making a decent point besides that.

hybrid itemization scales completely linearly (despite the slight bump that sheen/triforce give), that's even worse than on-hit itemziation that at least has madreds which helps scaling with the enemy hp at least. if you compare that to deathcap's additional scaling or adc's crit chance/damage... you will get the picture. you simply get heavily outscaled by everything.

bruiser type builds might not outdamage these but they offer way more utility while still doing decent damage to squishies and beeing ALOT more tanky (safe).

fair enough. Ill explain what I mean.

Guinsoos gives about 100 on-hit damge. but also 140 damage on her Q and extra utility from AP for her heal. Plus attack speed, which scales all on-hit damage. all for 2.2k (does fall off later, if Im at full build Id sell it for IE/Rabadons)

Nashors, AP (more on-hit damage + ability scaling), mana regen, CDR (must for Kayle). Also a very efficient.

Madreds, This is the IE of hybrids. The health shred is amazing.

Trinity Force, "tons of damage" tm

Black Cleaver, more Armor Shred.

Sell Boots, PD

Sell Guinsoos, IE

Run a similar Build on Akali or Jax. but that the general Core. Gunblade is hardly a hybrid Item, and it wasn't good before other than it can stack. its not very efficient.

actually, try just getting PD/IE (it's decent in any order, IE/PD is just as good) - you get overall better damage output on kayle and scale better into mid game. TF is really overrated imho, esp on kayle who can't really make use of it all that much (you don't really have anything to proc TF from regularly). so instead of buying items and selling them off for others just invest in what you wanted in the first place - you save gold that you can use.

also, BC makes your passive worse than it already is - try flat penetration (until they change the order to whatever they might want to).

i won't really comment on the other items since you go into ADC builds anyways, just check the pricetags and the damage you actually get.

Kayle needs Max CDR to be able to AA constantly, Which is 20% if you build all CDR runes. which is subpar, there are no good 20% CDR items. So your hurting yourself to build ADC.

BC vs. LW is almost the same loss before about 160 armor. But BC is slightly more damage and more AS, which synergizes with the rest of the build.

TF isn't amazing, I get it 4th or 5th. Kayle isn't an ADC, she needs a little tankiness. but cant sacrifice much damage if u want to be a major Threat. The Sheen proc is a little extra burst (Q is 4 sec CD, E is 10, you average the proc between 2-4 sec). All the stats are useful, and the slow (the biggest reason to get it) mean u can kite/permaslow people.

Hybrid Items are very efficient (Gunblade doesn't count). I wouldn't take Kayle as an ADC, its not a replacement, but its a nice addition when u have 2 tank on a team already. 2 people dishing out a lot of damage, and whichever 1 is focused is invincible for 3 seconds. That kind of thing is hard to counter.

It forces the enemy team to get tankier and tankier, while you already have the counter for it (madreds + a real ADC).