Reign of Gaming

In the same respect would Honor Guard in the defensive tree be just as useless?

You can say if you have 3000 hp. 3% of 3000 is 90 health points. That is not bad to be honest, since it's only 1 mastery point. 1 mastery point isn't that great usually except for masteries like weapon expertise or arcane knowledge. You have to think as 1 point = 90 health? Would you rather have 1 ap than 90 health in end game? 

Oh sorry, i thought you said Juggernaut >.< Honor Guard is indeed not that strong. It's the exactly the same thing as Havoc, that's why i usually run these:
Resistance, Indomitable, Hardiness, Durability, Veteran's Scars, Initiator, Harden skin and 2 points in vigor. This will make you able to pick Juggernaut.

Can we see the same math/talk about the % def. in defense tree?

I really want to see this aswell. As im usually never running Havoc or executioner that often anyway.

Comparison 6 flat ArP vs 1.5% bonus damage:

Evens out at an armor value of 306. Before 6 ArP is better, afterwards 1.5% bonus damage. (Without any additional armor reduction or similar things). So for ADs, Havoc is pretty useless, for all who wanted a comparison for ADs.

Aye havoc is purely for AP´s as there is nothing better to take (no, 3 flat AP ain´t better), it´s sad but imho old masteries where you had (more or less) one tree for APs and one for ADs worked out better XD

Ok this post is just silly. Its showing you how little 3 mastery points do. wow 3 whole mastery points. OF COURSE THEY DONT DO MUCH. But compare it to the other masteries. For instance the 3 AP or .375Ap per lvl for 3 points, compared to 1.5% more damage. Considering that 1.5% works on Base damage as well as ratios.

Lets say X champ has 2.5 ratio and 1000 Base damage, Deathcap and 300 AP and is lvl 18

1000+2.5 X 300 = 1750 X 1.015 = 1776.25

1000 + 2.5 X (300 + .375 X 18 X 1.3 ) = 1771.9375          So 1.5% is better then PER LVL AP and is obv much better then that 3 Ap

Quote from FireFlinger »

Ok this post is just silly. Its showing you how little 3 mastery points do. wow 3 whole mastery points. OF COURSE THEY DONT DO MUCH. 

Havoc is still pretty bad. I'd never take in in a 21/X/X build on an AD carry, and it's not even really worth taking in a 21/X/X bruiser build (except for 1 point as filler). The only time I'd take it is in a 21/X/X AP build where there aren't any other choices anyway.

But yes, this post is pretty worthless. No comparison to other options makes it a bad argument, even if it is correct.

Executioner still good IMO. More useful than any alternative really, at least most slots (other than 9th point) in offense tree. if it were 3 or 4 points, it would be AWFUL, but it is one point with a lot of useful stuff above it (like %AP and ArPen). Ideas like 16/14 in offense and any other tree are strong on certain champions, but it is still a marginal gain problem which will vary. 100% agree that havoc is SHIT lol.

Thanks for the math +1

If you have hypotetical spell, that gives 200  dmg and has 1:1 AP ratio, havoc would do (asuming you have no AP) same for you as those +3APs, but that is unlikely, dmg spells usually has higher base ammount and only few champions have 1:1 ratios, those 3 APs are ampiflied by rabbadon and archmage masteries, but havoc will still increase your dmg slightly better early game, and moch better later, it will be still quite underwhelming ammount but you can´t really choose.

Executioner is imho really powerfull early on for getting lane kills (especially with snowbally burst champs where you sometimes count every single point of dmg), whole reason of this mastery is to leser a chance that someone will escape with 5 HP left.

Very good read, changed all my masteries too. Even with ap, your gonna need be to going 350+ ap to start making havoc worth it from what i can quickly work out (at this point you get about 4.5 ap out of the talent), sitting with maybe 7 extra ap when you've hit 500 ap, which is pretty much full builds/pots. Id personally much rather have that little bit of early game Ap than have to wait 30 mins for that havoc talent to start kicking in (probably over exagerating but you get my drift).

All rough estimations on the calculations for those math nazis.

 Quoting:

What I want to know is though, is +3AP better than the +1.5% from Havoc? 

 I'd like to know that too ^^... Also, I already neglected Executioner in favor for the 1 Damage Reduction in the defense tree (=2 points in it total) - combining this with the -2 damage from minions, early AA-harassment and freezing lane by tanking minions is suddenly much easier, since you take almost no damage from minions. 

My thought on taking the Havoc-Mastery however relied on the idea, that it's straight up better than getting +1 AP. I didn't think far enough.. 

Already, I normally take +3AD on my AP cary pages mainly because it allows me to auto attack harrass a bit stronger and it helps with last hitting a bit. What I want to know is though, is +3AP better than the +1.5% from Havoc? I think one of the factors are the base damage of spells. Say a 300 damage spell: havoc would increase the damage by 4.5, however the 3 AP would rarely increase the damage by the same amount, unless the AP ratio is 1.5.

What I'm seeing is that a spell needs to have a .5 AP ratio per 100 base spell damage in order to even out 3AP and +1.5% dmg. More often than not you won't see this for AP carries.

Of course, this is just my own speculation but I think it's a real defining question. What is better, +3AP or +1.5% dmg? And on what champions in particular would you run one over the other?