Coming in to Season 3, what can we expect for champion changes? Or, who gon' get nerfed?

Well as is following every big tournament, every team has had time to go through the list of champions and decide who they thought were going to give them the greatest chances at winning. Read: Who was the most OP. With M5's hilarious remark about them picking broken champions I think it's safe to say that even the top teams feel that there are champions out there that simply out perform all others and had to be picked or banned if played well or at all. Without further ado, lets look at Hashinshin's list !

 

Orianna.

I say her first because GOD DAMNIT. She has an amazing team fight, and utility, and support, and AoE damage, and kiting, and poke, and is decently safe in lane. (A lot safer than Karthus anyway.) To top it all off she's a pretty big lane bully as well. Her win rate is *ludicrous* and she's been a first pick/ban against ANY team that even so much as plays her. When PLAYING her makes her a first pick/ban (even CLG.EU who played her only after seeing how OP she was) you know something is wonky. And on that, CLG.EU got beaten by Orianna, played Orianna, then their opponents banned Orianna just to deny it. That's pretty telling right there.

Evelyn. 

Oh christ. I know DFG is very OP and contributes a lot here, but lets be honest. Give an ASSASSIN the ability to do huge %health damage and you're going to have a bad time. I know that she has a bad lane and is squishy (not really) and bla bla bla but these negatives don't make up for the positive that: A. She snowballs really hard and starts outright 1 shotting people come mid game, and B. She gets a massive %health damage AoE that shields her. Also C. She can stay at longer range than other assassins and can break the slow on exhaust to run away, giving her a substantial advantage on other assassins. If I exhaust Talon he sits there dies and haha. If I exhaust Evelyn she was already at range, breaks the slow, runs away, then comes back later. Also she had a GIANT shield and probably tanked all the counter attack damage. Now we're not even getting in to her immunity to wards to stop her roaming, or her ability to scout. 

And lets be honest, every team M5 faced first thought "Haha we can beat Evelyn those other people were wrong!" then thought "no way can we beat Evelyn they were all right!" after getting demolished. 

Basically, Evelyn needs to lose her %health damage and it needs to go to a flat damage nuke. This would make it possible to actually itemize against Evelyn for defense. RoA should always be a viable and available defensive item for squishy casters, and assassins should NEVER have an easily available counter to it. Imagine if Talon's ultimate did %health damage instead of real damage. That's Evelyn. Yeah. Just broke your mind didn't I? 

Shen.

Not even gonna discuss this one since Shen has been for months a "when the hell is he gonna get nerfed?" champion. I think every ELO wants him nerfed. He's a lane dominater who transitions in to the best split pusher who has huge map control and, this is key, doesn't even have to use his ult to beat many champions 1v1. He can actually beat many champions top lane 1v1 AND still have his ultimate up to win another lane. He can win two lanes! At the same time! 

Ezreal.

His poke, his kite, his harass, his damage, his team fighting, his anti-carry. It's just too much right now. Trinity is showing to be an incredibly... broken item if ranged champions can use it due to the fact they get a ranged spam slow. Ezreal once he gets fed (not if, once, he's too good in lane for this to be an if) starts showing up to every team fight chasing down everyone with his spams slow off trinity, out running everyone, and just being ridiculous. Everyone has played against Ezreal by now so I'm sure there isn't even much of a thing to debate here.

I'd really like it if trinity got its slow on ranged attacks reduced to 30% instead of 35%. Frozen mallet discriminates, so should Trinity. Ezreal doing perma slows on range because he can attack so often with his high attack speed + Q spam just leads to him being Ashe with an escape move in many situations. 

Kog'Maw.

While I don't think Kog'Maw is likely to get nerfed, I think he DOES need to get nerfed. With Kog'Maw consistently being picked in the face of OP lane dominaters, it's very apparent that Kog'Maw is too powerful in lane to be that good late game. When ridiculously OP champions like Ezreal still aren't enough of a deterrent to pick a more early game champion to survive the lane? You know that champions like Miss Fortune simply aren't going to be enough. This issue simply comes down to the counters are not working. What happens when Ezreal gets nerfed? Corki gets nerfed? Graves gets nerfed? All these early game champions who are SUPPOSED to be shutting down Kog'Maw in lane will be nerfed, yet Kog'Maw who was already laning against them will just get to his late game even easier.

I'mma repeat that again just so people get it. Kog'Maw is currently a case of: The counters are not working. Kog'Maw is currently going toe to toe with his counters in lane (early game champions) and not even losing. As seen in many many teams this creates an aura of "well lets just pick Kog cause why not?" And really, why not? Doesn't lose lane despite being late game, amazing late game. Where is the issue?

Special mention: Sona

I dunno, maybe. I don't think being the best support immediately means you need a nerf, but on the other hand she is tending to out perform other supports. On the OTHER hand people are choosing weird stuff like Zyra over her. ON THE OTHER HAND if Nunu gets banned or Sona gets banned people just ban the other one so as to deny the other team a superior support. Does that make Nunu AND Sona the best supports? I Dunno.

Special mention: Deathfire Grasp.

When Karthus is building a single target damage item you know it's broken. Nuff said. This item is busted. Immediately apon being built you go from "oh he's scary" to "okay he can 1 shot me, and he got 15% CDR for free." I think the changes to this item need to be: %health damage reduced to 20% + 2% per 100 AP from 25% +4% per 100 AP. CDR reduced to 10% from 15%. This item is BONKERS. The fact that its %health damage scales BETTER than %health damage ultimates is crazy. By end game it's not uncommon to see DFGs being tossed around for 1000 damage on bruisers, %health damage backed by %Mpen just breaks the game, and currently that's what mages itemize for. 

I'mma say this again. SCALING %health damage that can be bought WITH %magic penetration breaks the game. There is no longer any form of defense you can buy. With 500 AP DFG starts doing 45% of your health. 45%. From an item. There is no longer any defense anyone can put up.

Special note: Item changes *WIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL impact this list.*

I'm going to finish on this note because I feel its important. With Riot promising better itemization, better anti-kite, better AD assassins, it will be apparent that this list might change entirely. If, for example, anti-kite becomes reallyreallyreally good then all of the sudden Ezreal's strategy of Perma-kite will be severely weakened and he might shoot down in power, he might shoot down in power DRASTICALLY. If they nerfed ranged carry items (which seems increasingly likely) then Kog'Maw and his silly powerful late game will take a hit. If DFG gets nerfed maybe (but not likely) Evelyn will be more balanced. 

It must all be taken in perspective. When atma's got nerfed M5 went from using Wukong to not using Wukong. Was Wukong changed? No he's actually just been buffed. Likewise, Atma's got nerfed and AD nidalee just fell off the face of the earth until recently. Same item made Renekton disappear. I guess what I'm saying is if that champions are UP yet use an OP item they might themselves seem balanced or OP. If that item gets changed (for example, trinity on ranged or IE) they will shoot way down in power. Another example is when they way nerfed LW+IE way way back when. Tristana went from THE ranged carry because she only needed 2 items to go dominate mode, to being average/bad because now she needed 3 items and her mid game sucks without heavy auto attack damage.

What's more, sometimes CHAMPIONS are released that drastically downplay other champions. Darius got released and that contributed to nobody wanting to play Renekton anymore. Why play lane dominater-lite Renekton when you can play a lane dominater that doesn't fall off by 15 minutes? Likewise, with all the MASSIVE powercreep in how strong mages are levels 1-5 Kassadin suddenly isn't even a safe pick against mages anymore.

So if your plan is to wait for a month and then go HAH, HAHAHA ORIANNA DIDN'T GET NERFED AND NOW NOBODY USES HER! Take other things in to consideration. 

92

Comments

  • #89 Rhakzor

    Who do you think is able to counter Kog'Maw in the lane, since the nerfs on his counters?

  • #90 julioabel90

    Pfff most will say Graves :) Ulti +Buckshot+Dash 1basic attacks and Kog's hp should be low enough after that to get him running.

  • #92 Rhakzor

    Obviously. Kog'Maw's counters are early game champions like Graves, Ezreal and Corki. But since their nerfs they might not be able to shut him down.I was thinking MF

  • #88 julioabel90

    Well Corki and Ez will be "nerfed"  by decreasing the slow chance on trinity... Shen is not OP and doesn't need to be nerfed : 1He is TANK and he scales on ap ,2Jayce can easily dominate Shen on top lane, 3He was already nerfed once this year by increasing the cd on E(taunt) and I believe the W or Q also... And about ez and kogmaw being too strong early game on lane... Draven beats both of them easily on early game.

  • #91 MerryLane

    1.Corki and Ez will barely get nerfed dude.
    The chance is not incredibly lower, like it will make no difference.

    2. Shen has always been fluctuating between OP and OK, and really easily. A little change on him, as much for his build path or a little change in his skills has always been more influent than any other champion because of his kit.
    Make most of the "tanks" with affinity with armor or MR less efficient (Malphite, Galio ... Even some like Rammus ...), make HP more efficient overall, shen will love that.
    Sure he won't be "OP" as in "I will kick everyone's ass", but he will have natural advantages way higher than 99 pct of other champions, or so.
    Oh and btw, Shen scales way more on HP and AS than on AP.

    3. Jayce dominating Shen is barely relevant. Shen can be played in the jungle or picked top when his "counter pick" was made sure not to be there.
    At worst, Shen's biggest power is not his awful laning phase, it's his presence.
    About his little nerfs, please go read 2) again so you understand than a little change might overcome really easily his "nerfs"; That's Shen.

    4. I'm not pretty sure Draven beats that hard Ezreal and Kogmaw dude ... The botlane "countering" depends almost as much on the supports than on the AD carries themselves for "countering".
    Anyway, the problem is not that (the least played) an AD carry can counter Ez and Kogmaw between lvl 1 and 2 (jk), the problem is that they are not countered hard enough to compensate for their awesome lategame.
    It's like saying "hourra, I was 3/0 on Kogmaw before 10th min, I so countered him hard! Oh and yeah it's not relevant with the fact Kogmaw ended up 25/3 in the end, I still counter him!"

  • #75 Cerbereth

    Ok so after I recieved a bunch of comments to the effect of tristana sucks you don't know what your talking about I decided to look it up.

    I went over to lolpro and researched what cop had to say about kogmaw. What he had to say really surprised me, because he basically said I am right and hashinshin is wrong.  This will probably be the only time that ever happens, because I know hashinshin is an amazing player, and the only reason I can play Xerath at all is because of his amazing xerath guide.

    His counters list was

    Kogmaw counters

    Ezreal, Miss fortune, and Vayne and he pretty much says that Kogmaw can simply wait it out to level 6 and then dominate which is what hashinshin said except he has been countering himself rather than kogmaw by picking mf and ezreal.

    Champions that counter Kogmaw are Tristana, Ashe, and Graves. Tristana is prized due to her superior mobility and late game dps over kogmaw. Ashe can initiate on kogmaw with her arrow easily all game. Graves can just destroy kogmaw early and then keep him under his turret all game.

    Naturally you need to be good at these three champions to get the full effect of the counter you can't just pick one for the first time and expect to win.

     

    Last edited by Cerbereth: 10/15/2012 8:08:00 PM
  • #79 MerryLane

    Dude, come on, when we talk about botlane "countering", it s not as hard than on mid and toplane.

    If you put Kogmaw with Alistar or Sona (at least, not a Nautilus?), and any support with Tristana, chances are both get to lategame equally fed.
    And there, Tristana isn't half as useful than Kogmaw, because he would just melt the frontline, while Tristana will take longer time.
    Because it's a 2v2, the matchups between AD carries only don't matter that much.

    On top of that, guides on Lolpro are a bit outdated for some, the "counter lists" aren't that precise, just see these guides as a really good introduction to "how to play this champ" (runes masteries and combos, things like that), altough lolpro is also my reference when I'm searching quick infos on some champs.

    If you ask us to play Tristana before opening our mouths, please play other AD carries, as well as supports.

    And if you could, please, use good references to sit your view, such as Tristana's winrate, which is 43 pct. She is one of the most UP champion ever, and even in matchups in which she is sposed directly countering another AD carry, in a niche teamcomp, and in the hand of an experienced player, she is still the worst AD carry you could play in these conditions, or so.

    Last edited by MerryLane: 10/16/2012 9:45:26 AM
  • #80 Cerbereth

    I am not forcing anyone to play Tristana I am just saying the three best counters to kogmaw are Graves, Ashe, and Tristana in that order.

    Hashinshin seems to be saying well Ezreal and Miss Fortune can't beat Kogmaw better nerf Kogmaw. Kogmaw counters Ezreal and Miss Fortune so of course they can't beat Kogmaw. 

     

  • #81 MerryLane

    1) I don't think Tristana really is a counter to Kogmaw if her chances of winning aren't higher than 50 pct.

    2) Hashinshin seems to be saying that ever since they "nerfed" the AD carry trio, bullshit happened to botlane.
    Long story short, Corki and Graves are significantly less stronger than before, up to the point they don't counter anymore Kogmaw hard enough.
    And, long story short, Ezreal went out of this patch reinforced, and wayyyy too much, since Graves/Corki were the ones truly nerfed while he was "practically" buffed.
    => Ban Ezreal, pick and babysit Kog, win? That's the situation atm.

    What hashinshin said about Kogmaw, is that they will nerf Ezreal in early S3, from what we read on the forums.
    Ezreal being nerfed, noone else countering "hard enough" Kogmaw, he would be the king of the AD carries. (oh and btw brah, Ezreal is the only counter to Kogmaw atm, "or so", not the opposite)
    Thus, if you read again the paragraph about Kogmaw, you will understand that if the Ezreal domino falls off, so should Kogmaw.
    (because it will be like for the nerf of Graves and Corki, Kog would be the clear winner, and we still wouldn't have AD carries "balanced between each others")

    Last edited by MerryLane: 10/16/2012 6:19:12 PM
  • #82 Cerbereth

    Well maybe. Kogmaw is a great champion and I could see him being back on top of the heap again.

    The new item and mastery changes coming up might change this up though.

    Also a note about Tristana's win rate percentage.

    That is her winrate in all the games she played this month. Her winrate vs Kogmaw might be significantly better.

     

     

    Last edited by Cerbereth: 10/16/2012 11:50:30 PM
  • #84 Kewadin

    According to Elobuff, this week AD Kog'Maw beats Tristana 57% of the time in solo queue. The only AD's that actually win against Kog'Maw are Miss Fortune and Ezreal, with Miss Fortune having the higher win rate. So it stands to reason that if Ezreal gets nerfed and more people don't notice the Miss Fortune counter, that Kog'Maw will indeed become the new overpowered bot laner.

  • #85 Rhakzor

    Winrate doesn't mean anything at all. You can't claim that because Kog'maw is winning more lanes than Tristana, Kog'maw counters Tristana. 50% of people playing those champions have no idea how to play the champion. Kog'maw might shred teams, but he is also a lot easier to kill in teamfights since he has no real escapes than his E. If he goes in for AA, he will be punished, if he stands back and ults his dps it too low. On the other hand, Tristana has longer AA range, a jump and a super strong knockback which makes it a lot easier for her to deal potential damage in a high elo game where people know where to focus. So don't start saying that Kog'maw outshines Tristana late game since it depends A LOT about the situation. 

    In the laning phase you can't call who counters who unless two same-skilled players play agaisnt each other for 20 games and Kog'maw has a 60% win ratio. The win ratios on lolcounter, elobuff, etc. doesn't matter at all since so many people never plays those champs more than 3 times. 

  • #86 MerryLane

    On the contrary, winrates matter and give really good clues.

    But let's spose you are right and that everyone almost never played Tristana and Kogmaw before.
    Then if their winrate is 57 pct against each others, it means that Kogmaw is easier to play than Tristana? xD
    Because that's basically what you are saying, if these players are unexperienced with the champions they play, the only thing left is "easiness to play".
    (Just use your own argument against you, gotcha)

    Bro tip ; you can check winrates on platinum elo or sth, places where people know their matchups.

  • #87 Kewadin

    I did check the matchups there, but the problem with using those numbers, is that the matchups happen less frequently, so the data isn't as valid as it is at lower elos due to a small sample size. And for the vast majority of us, we play in the lower area anyways.

    Why anyone would think win rate doesn't matter is beyond me.

  • #74 monkyyy

    i do think ori does need to be nerfed, i currently play her ad offtank(look at w and e base values if u dont put anypoints in q besides at lvl 5 for ur ulti) an she is quite strong top lane a really strong lane bully who has more team fight potential then anyone who can 1v1 u, so it would be nice if they nerfed her a ratios a bit

  • #70 vitocapo2

    wtf dude, orianna was played by the best ap mid in the world right now... he could make syndra look OP.

    Evelynn is just fine, considering she has almost no CC and is melee...

    Kog maw is fine too, ezreal could get his old mana costs back. Now he is a manaless champion.

    I agree on shen though. Sona needs a nerf too. Also, I think you forgot jax and jayce for nerfs. And Wukong. That monkey is OP

  • #71 Waaargh

    What is it with all this Sona dumbing? IF her QWE gets any worse they will end up being non existant. So it's with her R? Nerf R, buff WE ?

  • #72 MerryLane

    Quote from Waaargh »

    What is it with all this Sona dumbing? IF her QWE gets any worse they will end up being non existant. So it's with her R? Nerf R, buff WE ?

    Her poke is way too high.
    At lvl 1, she takes you like 100/150 damage in a second from further than most ad carries' range.

    Against a good Sona, the AD carry just get zoned incredibly hard, and it's really difficult to catch and burst her (without diing), unlike soraka.

  • #73 OuterRaven

    Quote from vitocapo2 »

    wtf dude, orianna was played by the best ap mid in the world right now... he could make syndra look OP.

    Evelynn is just fine, considering she has almost no CC and is melee...

    Kog maw is fine too, ezreal could get his old mana costs back. Now he is a manaless champion.

    I agree on shen though. Sona needs a nerf too. Also, I think you forgot jax and jayce for nerfs. And Wukong. That monkey is OP

    Says Orianna and Evelynn are fine, yet thinks that Jax and WUKONG (seriously, wukong?) are op. Seems legit.

  • #83 Mockstar

    Evelynn was played by the best AP mid in the world, in my opinion, and dominated both games she was picked in, against teams that are similar in skill level no less.Eve is strong, but not broken. Rengar, who can burst just as well if not better than Eve, but isn't necessarily reliant on his ult and an item to do it, that's broken as hell.

    Orianna was pick/ban in almost every game, because shes op. 

    DFG isn't OP because ANY CHAMP can build it. Therefore, choosing not to take it means you accept not having that kind of burst. Sure, its only viable on AP's, but AP champs are supposed to be bursty (usually). 

    Jax is fine. Jayce is too strong top lane, but not as broken as Rengar. And LOL at the wukong troll.

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