So Riot has a problem with melee. A problem that's pretty easily explainable. In LoL with the majority of melee champions they must beat anyone they ever get in to melee with. Meaning that if Volibear ever gets in melee of any non-melee champion he must (MUST) win against them on that merit alone. This has been a balancing issue that I'd say cropped up in the pre-season 1 era, where melee were generally considered worthless. In Season 1 Riot made melee incredibly powerful for the first half of the season, and early game monsters in the second half. However, it still didn't fix the issue of every melee champion having to auto win if they got in melee.
WHY must every melee champion win on the single condition that they get in to melee?
Their movement speed advantage over ranged champions is negligible. The FASTEST champion has <10% advantage in speed over the SLOWEST champion. For most the difference is ~5%. So for the most part ranged champions can just walk away from a melee champion and never really have any issues with it. The time it would take to catch up would be well beyond the time it would take to get behind a turret. Probably behind two turrets.
The default range is at range. This isn't like Warhammer 40k where the start up zones are so close to each other that some races can actually charge in to melee on first turn, and the majority can on second turn. In LoL everything starts at whatever range you want it to be. This means Lux is chucking snares and bombs at you and walking away before you ever get a chance to do anything. Take Syndra or Zyra. Syndra can cast everything while walking away, while having a knockback that stuns. Zyra has a perma slow plant that can be placed on a root. Imagine you're Volibear, how do you get in melee?
And finally, ranged champions damage is practically the same as melee champions. AND they're ranged. Take Leblanc and Fizz. Who does more damage? Well Leblanc does a lot up front but Fizz has his DoT sooo you'd say they both have their advantages. Take Tryndamere versus Miss Fortune. Tryndamere probably has more singe target damage but Miss Fortune has a lot of AoE. Both, again, have their advantages. Damage wise neither is superior inherently.
So what did Riot do to fix these issues?
Gap closers, huge base damages, hazaa!
For the movement speed issue Riot gave melee... gap closers! When you have a gap closer whenever somebody asks "hey are you in range? You're not in range" you can say "No, I AM in range!"
For the default range being at range Riot gave melee champions HUGE RANGE gap closers, with CC attached! Well they didn't all have CC, but enough had CC + gap closers. This all happened before the counter-powercreep in ranged champions where a gap closer was pretty much enough to permanently ensure you were in melee. LATER ON we got stuff like Syndra, Lux, Lulu, etc. The counter-powercreep also raised it's own issues and caused a counter-counter-powercreep in melee where we started to see- well basically you know how Diana is the way she is? Infinite gap closers and a pull in mega slow?
And finally (although this doesn't really happen anymore) Riot released massive base damage champions like Xin Zhao or Renekton. Xin Zhao has since been reduced CONSIDERABLY to where he doesn't really show it anymore, but Renekton is still there. Jarvan, Irelia, and re-revamped Udyr came out of this era. However, Riot's thought process was "if we jack up their damage a lot then people will want to play them over range!" Well, Riot forgot that base damage doesn't scale if you don't give it scaling, and you can just toss on a lot of defenses and use that base damage to kill people who DIDN'T have as much base damage.
So what was the end result?
Melee champions win if they get in melee, still suck otherwise.
Well you might have noticed a key component was missing here. Two key components really: Usefulness outside of melee, and counterplay. So now melee champions can get in to melee, and they will win when in melee... aaaand... that's it. It's very one dimensional. Ironically one of the oldest melee champions. Olaf, is so ripe with counterplay that it makes me wonder how we regressed so hard back to things like Irelia and Xin Zhao. Anyway, melee champions got this mind set ENFORCED on them where they have one thought "get in melee get in melee get in melee get in melee" and once they complete it they win. Now I'm not saying melee is easy to play, or that range is any harder to play. I'm merely saying they have exactly one task to accomplish, and their opponents have exactly one task to stop.
Compare this if you will to Brand. Brand who Riot decided has to suck till eternity because he was good once in tournaments. When you fight brand you've got multiple things to look out for: Dodge the fireball, dodge the fire nova, keep away from teammates, or if solo keep away from minions when on fire. Brand himself also has a lot of things to keep in mind. Nowwwww look at Xin. Get in melee get in melee get in melee get in melee. All the counterplay is from Brand. It makes the skill required somewhat one sided. Xin has to look out for all these things on Brand, but Brand has only one thing to do, try to keep him out of melee.
Think of it like a trade. Brand gives Xin all these options to counterplay him, so Xin has to take all this skill to do those counterplays. Xin gives Brand no counterplays so Brand can't really do anything other than execute his own comboes.
To respond to an argument before its made: Irelia does't have counterplay. You attack her when she's at range, she gap closes in and stuns you. If you DON'T attack her when she's at range then she's going to win anyway since she's now in melee.
So what does Riot try to do do re-fix the melee issue?
They're trying to give melee counterplay. Real counterplay. Counterplay that just isn't "stay out of range of the melee champion with a gap closer!" Because that's... not that useful. It's like telling a fat man not to eat the Donuts you've already served in front of him and he'll lose some weight. Yeah, not that useful. So what kind of counterplay am I talking about? Well, I don't know. Why? Because they've only really done it on a few champions. Kha'Zix gets the isolated mechanic which you have to avoid, and the skillshots he chucks at you which you have to avoid. Zed gets skillshots but those are kinda done on everything.
For other champions you've got Vi and dodging her Q but in reality most of the time she just ults and then Qs for additional CC. We've got Nautilus with dodging his Q but again he typically does it after ult for free CC.
We've seen Xypherous liiightly go over this concept, but I feel like way too often Riot treats melee like the morons of the game to get anything done in a reasonable time. Just off the top of my head for easy-mode melee we've got Garen, Volibear, Xin Zhao, Irelia, Wukong, Warwick. Compare this to range with: Annie. No really, can you think of another ranged champion who can just click all their buttons on an opponent and achieve maximum success with no other mechanics at work? Even Ashe has to hit her arrow. For melee I didn't even add GP since he at least has his ult.
It all comes down to this!
So the end thing is: Riot wants you to be able to do something, ANYTHING, to where a melee champion simply getting in to melee isn't enough for him to win. We've seen this in Kha'Zix and his isolated mechanic, and his hit and run style of ranged harass. So that's a pretty good start there. The real trick will be Riot creating a bruiser that has counterplay. Vi is a good "start" but you know it's not really all there. However, at least Vi has counterplay at all, and is one of the most counterplayable bruisers since Olaf. Ironically it has taken us 3 years to get back to where we were in counterplay.
The next few melee champions we see will hopefully be the ones that start showing off Riot's new counterplay for melee, and we get to see what they've been hard at work doing!
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Posted 1/2/2013 3:34:46 PM"Zyra has a perma slow plant that can be placed on a root. Imagine you're Volibear, how do you get in melee?"
the bear laughs at her petty crowd control thanks to his tenacity and cc reduction mastery and ignores the tower she attmpts to hide behind, continuing on the slaughter her with his Q and E cc and his W damage.
and about that 2 towers before you catch up...volibear can afford to do that. very fun to be a 3500 hp volibear and dive past both top lane towers for an irelia.
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Posted 1/1/2013 2:19:46 AM"No really, can you think of another ranged champion who can just click all their buttons on an opponent and achieve maximum success with no other mechanics at work?"
Ryze
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Posted 1/1/2013 9:18:56 AMRyze kinda fits, I guess. If I say xin zhao then I gotta say Ryze.
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Posted 1/1/2013 11:00:09 AMOn ryze...All buttons = Achieve success, yes
but spam All Buttons =/= Maximum Success
With ryze its less about aiming and more about sequence and knowing when you have enough time to execute a full combo or a short bursty one
if ryze R- QWEQs then he has to sit the for a couple of seconds only autoattacking
But if he spaces his Qs then it can be something like QWQEQRQ which deal TONS more dmg than the first one... on a single target anyway
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Posted 1/1/2013 2:46:54 PMToo much work. Play annie, get stun, W>R>Q>Ignite.
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Posted 1/2/2013 10:43:08 AMFor annie that actually is the case XD
All Buttons = Maximum Success.... guess thats why no one plays her... gets boring after a while, for me anyway
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Posted 1/1/2013 1:53:11 AMI'm not sure melee champions should be on par with ranged champions. I mean from a melee players perspective trying to carry a game yeah sure they should be, but from a team game standpoint what will ranged dps do if melee dps becomes just as good sit around and look pretty? Not to mention that poke comps and protect comps actually rely on the inferiority of melee champions to work. If that changes all we have is dive and aoe comps. Aoe comps counter dive comps so really all we have is aoe comps. I like aoe comps, but should it be the only comp? Probably not. Melee champions should tank/jungle and leave the dps and cc to ranged champions. It's how dungeons and dragons does it (linear fighter quadratic wizard), and it should be how lol does it.
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Posted 1/1/2013 4:56:42 AMI'm pretty curious about what your thoughts on Eve & Ali are. Also, don't you find it logical that dealing damage point-blank is/should be more efficient than from a range? (think bomb, knife stab/throw, shotgun... any gun actually)
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Posted 1/3/2013 12:47:46 AMAlistar is the perfect melee champion in my opinion. He tanks well and he has the disrupts to match. The good thing about Alistar is he is fun too I could play Alistar all day and have a fun time whether my ranged champions are winning or losing. I think he should be the template for melee tanks in general. Evelynn is interesting, because she can actually ambush ranged champions and assassinate them which is what assassins are supposed to do. She succceeds at what she is supposed to do.
As far as what weapons should do logically guns beat swords and knives at pretty much every range. Even bows beat swords and knives. From a realistic standpoint it makes sense for the best damage dealers to all be ranged. Of course the presence of magic and rock/energy monsters can totally turn this argument on it's head.
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Posted 1/3/2013 12:50:49 AMMan, I don't want to disappoint you, but alistar is a really bad pick lately.
Look at his winrate on lolking.
At best he is a potable situationnal pick in some comps against some comps, but why pick alistar when you have 10 100x better choices.
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Posted 1/3/2013 2:54:59 AMThat's because riot nerfed alistar to death. I mean he was an ultra great champion and I get the nerfs, but Morello went overboard.
Lately ive been using taric instead even though I don't like taric. Can't argue with a free armor aura though.
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Posted 1/3/2013 4:27:38 AMOkay, for the weapons part though i meant each case separately.
Like, not guns VS knifes, rather throwing a knife (ranged attack) VS stabbing someone with it; shooting someone with a shotgun at a range (ranged) VS shooting him point-blank; the damage dealt by a bomb when you're far from it VS when you're on top of it. My point being that since ranged have to travel distances, not spread, require more kinetic energy to achieve the same results, etc, they're generally weaker than melee attacks and that makes sense in LoL too i think. If anything it would make sense from a balance standpoint anyways, and that's why assassins should be melee and as well-designed as Eve, and why melee carries must deal huge damage (if they don't they're worthless). Similarly, CC should be way easier to apply at melee range. Why would rangeds have better CC?
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Posted 1/14/2013 6:31:43 PMI agree with a lot of that especially what you are saying about kinetic energy now that I understand what you mean. Melee champions generally have more reliable cc than ranged and are also tankier (graves vs fiora excluded). And I think that in every role except ad carrying that a melee champion is a viable alternative to a ranged champion. Gragas is a viable alternative to Lux, and Taric is a viable alternative to Sona, but when it comes to carrying Tryndamere is not a viable alternative to Ashe.
Riot could give Tryndamere some incredible base stats, and abilities to offset his disadvantages vs Ashe, but it has some ramifications for the game that I don't think would be worth it. The lanes would need to change as Tryndamere probably wouldn't be able to lane vs constant pokes bottom, and teamfights would be odd as a team wouldn't need to protect their carry anymore as a melee carry needs to close with the enemy leaving them free to do other things.
My opinion is that we take the three melee carries (yi, fiora and tryndamere) and change them into bruisers or junglers where being melee is more of an asset than a liability rather than try to alter the game to make room for three champions. I mean is it easier to change the game or three champions?
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Posted 1/14/2013 9:16:51 PMI'm glad you mention the laning problem because i think riot is trying to offer solutions. There are things like the anti-autos defensive masteries, that could diminish the harass significantly if not taking 21 in offense. There's also Doran's shield that stacks with that.
But what makes me bring this topic up at all really is Thresh: his lantern dash which only works for 1 person; his grab/dash, and the fact that he generally wants the enemy to back off regularly to pick up souls. The lantern looks like it was made to offer a melee ADC a quick trip back to safety after going balls deep on the enemy champions, and it shields a little. The grab can be used to bring the enemy in range of any of the 3 melee carries' gapcloser, or recast it for the dash to land ult. If he can successfully allow his Tryn/Fiora/Yi to assault enemy champions, they'll have to try and kite, allowing Thresh to get in range for harvesting the souls of caster minions for example.
What is your opinion? When Lulu came out i had similar thoughts due to her ult but clearly nobody used her for that purpose, but it has an ult's cooldown, and i have yet to see how good pix's shield and Q's slow shot from your carry's position are for a lane like this, and i suspect Thresh would be much better anyways, because of lantern dash.
As for putting them in the jungle, yeah that seems to work pretty well, but maybe they aren't obligated to cope with slightly less farm, less ward protection and 1 less summoner spell...
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Posted 1/14/2013 9:46:28 PMThat is a pretty interesting idea. Fiora could ult then Thresh could grab her and pull her back behind the tank wall or Yi could Alphastrike do damage and then get pulled back where he could meditate his health back and then go back in again. Tryndamere probably wouldn't benefit as much.
You could use Yorrick or Zilean for added durability for a second wave after they get pulled back once so they can auto attack without fear of dying.