With tanks being a little less than good to play lately, lets call it subpar, a key concept keeps showing up in every game that seems to defeat the purpose of tanks: %health damage. Riot has decided that stacking resistances forcing a LW/Void Staff on to people to continue to hurt you was a bad mechanic, so they OBLITERATED resistances and made them practically pointless to buy in mass. However, they made health so a little bit cheaper and far easier to buy in mass. (Hell, a lot easier to buy in mass. Like, a LOT easier.) Where as in Season 2 it was a good idea to have about 3000 HP and a heap of resistances, now it's a good idea to have 4000+ HP and a chunk of resistances.
So what changes from Season 2?
Resistances were devalued. A lot. Where as in Season 2 a single chain vest was enough to make most physical damage users cringe and be unable to fight you that same chain vest will do little to stop the pain train in Season 3. Frozen Heart used to be the go-to for anti-physical damage, and in Season 3 Frozen Heart will merely slow down Ranged Carries and do very little to AD casters. HOWEVER, total damage dealt went down. IE went to 70 damage, ranged crits only get 5% instead of 10% bonus damage through masteries, Deathcap lost some %AP and flat AP, Etc. In addition to THAT health got cheaper and much easier to find in large quantities.
So resistances are worth less, health is cheaper, and total damage is lower. Damage as a whole is HIGHER mind you, just the damage before resistances went down. Look at it as you used to do 10 damage reduced by 4 from resistances, and now you deal 8 damage reduced by 2 from resistances. So what's the natural end result? People stack health now. It used to be stacking health was a death sentence because the damage dealt before resistances was so crazy high it was a death sentence to not stack resistances. Now the damage is a bit lower but you can stack health and get defense against magic and physical damage easier. Now mind you you still must get some resistances so you don't get hit by true damage because EVERYONE just stacks flat pen now.
As an aside it's somewhat of a Myth that Health stacking got better because the items got better. Warmogs is worse than in Season 2, Randuins gained 250 health but lost 5% CDR, 25 HP10, and lost it's active slowing attack speed. So it's easier to "Get health" but only because everything that didn't give health got nerfed so badly.
And mind you, it's not like tanks are super tanky as is.
Nobody is running in to teams and tanking them all. There isn't some plague of tanks dominating the game. %health damage just takes a class that is generally hurting and just makes it impossible for them to do their job. Granted there are some tanks that are doing great, but as a whole tanks are not doing great. Additionally, Warmogs being a good item that everyone builds doesn't immediately make Rammus good.
So why is %health damage such an issue now? Why not Season 2?
Some people still might not get it, so lets put it in to perspective. Damage are doing less total flat damage, but having far more resistances. Put that together in your mind. %health damage is doing more damage than ever. Last Season I'd have 3000 HP, but I'd also have 150 MR and 250 armor. Now I'll have 4000 HP and maybe 150 armor 100 MR. What's the end result? %health damage is MASSSSSSIVE right now. Why do you think everyone and their mother is buying Liandry's Torment? You're fighting more HP that has less resistances. %health damage got nothing but a flat buff.
So ask yourself: "Why does %health damage even exist if tanks aren't even close to an issue?" Has anyone had issues killing tanks without %health damage? Is Ezreal going "damn, tanks are just impossible to kill!" Is Talon sitting there thinking "if only there was some way for me to fight tanks!" No, they aren't. Nobody has issues killing tanks. Most tanks are even building damage now because they realize the futility of building tanky. Nobody is playing Amumu and just going full tank, people are building Liandry's, sunfire, and abyssal on Amumu. That's a huge shift away from people building full tank, because full tank loses even without %health damage, and %health damage exists to boots.
As always, look at it on a case-by-case basis.
I'm not saying ALL %HEALTH DAMAGE IS OP AND CLEARLY NERFNERFNERF. I never say that about anything. YOU people say that. Generalizing is the key to stupidity. Liandry's torment likewise gives flat magic pen to kill squishies, but also gives %health damage to kill tanks? Why does DFG and Evelyn do %health damage if they're (burst casters) supposed to be countered by tanks? Why does Varus get %health damage if AD casters have always been the premiere tank killers anyway? So he would keep using his abilities late game? If that's really the problem then maybe Riot should look at his ability scaling versus auto attack scaling.
Counter Argument: %health damage exists so people don't stack health!
So where's my %AP damage? My %AD damage? Why is Veigar the only champion that punishes people for building AP? Why are defenses the only thing that gets punished for getting stacked? Lets take it a step further, I think DFG should be changed from 15% HP damage to do 100% of the opponent's AP + 150% of their AD as damage. Why not? Balancing something off of what your opponent does has always been a stupid concept. It gets even stupider however when you restrict it to only things your opponent does for survivability then put it on a whole bunch of different items and effects as free bonuses. Imagine for a second if Leblanc lost 10 damage on her Q, but in return she gains 50% of the target's AP damage as damage on her Q.
What if there was an item that reduced your attack speed to 0.7 no matter what your current attack speed was. Would that be fun for on-hit users and AD casters? Why would such an item need to exist? What about if Trundle's Q was changed to steal 30% of your total AD? These effects would not be desirable or fun to play against. The only reason we accept %health damage (and by extension %armor/MR shreds) is because they've been around for so long that we've just sort of gotten used to them. The problem now though is that the compensation for these effects has swung in to a fair level, where it isn't fair for people that don't have %health damage. Fair for those that do, unfair for those that don't. Doesn't that sound like the definition of bad balance?
If, for example, AD carries just became so ungodly OP that they could wade in and 1v5 teams would the natural approach to the situation be to include items that practically shut down AD carries single handedly? An item that hard capped your attack speed at a 0.7 rate before attack speed slows? No, that'd be a silly approach and it'd be totally unfun to face. Unfortunately that's very much a reality for health right now.
Players should not be punished for their choices, unless those choices show a real balance concern when done. Is health stacking dominating the game? Maybe it is. But shouldn't that be a concern with the health items themselves? Maybe it isn't, then why does %health damage exist? See this game, I call it the game of: Stop being lazy and balance properly.
In fact, let me say that in big paragraph letters: Players should not be punished for their choices unless those choices represent a real balance concern, a balance concern that only shows up when stacking/boating/spamming/etc. occurs.
If something isn't overpowered yet has a counter, it must be made overpowered to beat that counter. This is actually the main point of this article but it's such a short point to make.
Where am I going with this? A little health but not a lot was good in Season 2. %health damage kept it down pretty hard. In season 3 it got compensated. Like, grossly overcompensated. Why? Because %health damage exists in such large quantities! I won't actually make a big paragraph out of this because it's pretty apparent to anyone playing the game right now what happened.
And I think the end result is just too many effects exist out there to punish tanks which is a remnant of a better time for tanks.
The time when you could build full tank Nasus, wade in to the opposing team and once you withered the AD carry you would never die. That's done now. That's a myth. That doesn't happen anymore. Nobody does that anymore. The only people who think that happens anymore are Riot who for some reason have made balance mistake after balance mistake in regards to tanks until they finally went one step too far and ended most tanks overnight. Riot could always make mistakes because tank items like FH were just so damn good that tanks could take the hit. Now they can't anymore. The problem here is Riot has NEVER had to go back and actually do anything for tanks because they've always worked well.
So what will Riot do? Are we going to nerf health a lot and just end up saying "well I guess that's that!" or... well I know that's what we are going to do. I just wish we'de take more time to look at the game and go "okay yeah this clearly isn't working." I mean it's one thing to just chase around numbers with a nerf hammer, it's a less lazy and more surgical approach to actually get in there and fix problems.
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @HASHINSHIN.
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Posted 2/4/2013 1:29:39 PM"Ok how does my math prove your point exactly, with my calc"
Your calculations did pretty much show that you get less armor now days. Yes it has only small difference, but when tanks were already in bad shape before that nerf. Which makes it pretty much useless to buy armor. You rather build damage or Hp in order to be some use in team fights.
How in hell people can even have more armor if %penetration is calculated before the flat penetration. They changed how the penetration changes. People pretty much have reached penetration cap in every game now days. Which makes this change even worse for us.
"Counter arguing everything is kind of pointless when you are trying to get under my skin just because you want to continue a useless argument."
> Trying to get under your skin
> Arguments that counter your statements are useless
"60% of your paragraph was repeating things about my "maturity""
I only said once about your maturity and that was at the end of the comment.
"Clearly you nit pick at random stuff that has nothing to do with the topic."
No offence but that is exactly what you have been doing.
". Please remove your irrelevant spiels"
spiels?
"I'm guessing you're gonna say something about not counter arguing again. Well thank you for repeating things over and over again, and this is why ignore your points."
May I ask what points? I have already answered every point you have made. Still waiting you to answer mine. Like what happened to AP malz? What happened to AP elise. You were stating that only 2 champions can be made ap carries who has %hp. I did literally prove you wrong.
Oh and there was a mistake in your calculation. Let me prove it to you
New penetration system Old system
200 armor vs 35% armor penetration and 10 flat penetration.
200/100 = 2 200-10=190
2x35=70 190/100=1,9
70+10=80 1,9x35=66,5
200-80=120 190-66,5=123,5
123,5-120=3,5
This clearly shows that in old system we had better armor. And that you either use math or you purposefully used wrong method.
It is clear that they did nerf penetration items penetration gain by 5%. But that doesn't mean that when capped in penetration, that you don't do actually more damage than before. Also as I stated, people tend to get max penetration now days. So it's not fair to compare old penetration item to new item when were are talking about how they did change how penetration itself works.
"Who's gonna read it?"
You and other people who are actually interested in truth. The fact that you can't think of someone reading doesn't mean that someone won't read.
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Posted 1/30/2013 1:29:04 PMActually some really good insight in there. Good article!
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Posted 1/30/2013 8:39:16 AMI wasnt gonna say anything but...
" YOU people say that. Generalizing is the key to stupidity"
Really Hash? XD
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Posted 1/29/2013 6:57:21 PMI...this sweeping generalization...the irony...I don't even...
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Posted 1/28/2013 1:09:06 PMMan so much rage...what the fuck?
And honestly i don't really know hashinshin, i didn't even look at the writer's name when i started reading this (i never do) and i don't know if making such posts is some kind of RoG thing to have fun, but what the hell?
Tanks are not strong? Man 2 seconds ago i was in a game with olaf BUILDING PURELY PURELY *PURELY* tanky and DIVING in 5 people + TURRET rushing to their AD carry with ghost and dropping mad fucking thunder on its face with no problem at all. I also did the same with Shen 2 days ago, being completely unkillable,AND I WASN'T EVEN FED. i almost thought tanks are fucking OP not underpowered.
Why are you crying?
Bruisers maybe actually did get nerfed, building half damage half tanky won't get you to many places anymore, you die too fast. But tanks? oh god Tanks with not a single offensive item? Nerfed? No.
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Posted 1/29/2013 1:20:38 PMOlaf and shen both gain damage from health and only one of them can be called as a tank.
Building only hp items isn't as building tanky. It never was. Build tank items which doesn't give much health and then come back and say how op tanks are.
It's a fact that health is actually worse now than it used to be. Only difference is that you can get it bit faster. I repeat BIT faster.
Now would you bother to tell me how are you going to play, skarner, nautilus (he scales, but he sucks in jungle and as support), hecarim, rammus, leona, gallio.
Please tell me how well these tanks who doesn't scale with hp.
What about if you would use actually arguments than use your personal experience as proof of your point. Since even I could debate with your logic that AP rammus is op when I was once able to carry as one.
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Posted 1/29/2013 3:34:24 PMHealth is not worse, it is harder to get tons of health now, easier to get less health, that's all. Health as a stat has actually been greatly buffed because the resistances got hit so hard. I never said i built only health items where did you read that? Health + resistances, Aura effects, defence effects, etc. That means tanky.
Definition of tank:
A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class.Tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, or alternatively evasiveness and misdirection.
It doesn't matter if the character is labeled as a tank or not, if you're charging in 5 people and have heaps of defensive stats, you're a tank.
And how exactly do you say that building HP items is not building tanky?A character with just 6 items of pure health, is a tank if he's a pain in the ass to kill. That's as far as it goes, itemization has nothing to do with it. It's just about how hard you are to kill.
Skarner is pretty much a pure jungler champion, there's no hiding that, even Riot somewhat admits to that.
Nautilus is kind of failed right now i agree, what does it matter though? He just needs changes. Hecarim has also been designed for jungle, rammus is a too old champion who pretty much just doesn't truly fit in the current meta, although i still find him to be a god tier jungler *if of course used well* and maybe viable top in rare cases.
Leona? Galio? I don't think i need to comment on these,that's ridiculous.
My experiences were not of random games that i just got luckily fed and carried, it's been happening consistently everytime i've been playing a tank lately, that's why i used them as arguments. I was not just "once able to carry with one", I've been doing it quite often.
then again of course i'm not a top tier player, so i could be mistaken, however from my experiences, and what i've seen in the tournament picks and comptetitive scene, tanks aren't really in such a bad position right now.
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Posted 1/29/2013 5:06:57 PMThe fact resistances get nerfed doesn't mean that health get's buffed. Health simply stayed the same, and it simply is only option if you want to take some damage.
"Tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units."
Nice that you already gave defination. Now you should actually realize that Garen and olaf are pretty bad tanks because of this. People have no reason to focus them if their ap, or ad carry is near.
In other words it doesn't matter do they have health or tank items if people don't focus them.
"And how exactly do you say that building HP items is not building tanky?"
Tanky yes but not tank. You are tank like with lot of hp, however we could argue that health is tank attribute, but here is one problem. Shen and olaf gain damage from it. It is more about building damage to them then. Since other armor and resistance items actually help you more. Well they used to until they got nerfed.
So what if skarner is a jungler? He is still a tank. Bad tank after the buffs they gave to penetration and nerfs for non health tank items.
For some reason you can't think junglers or supports as a tank. Also you seem to dismish characters who are actually designed to be tanks and focus on characters which are bruisers.
Your experience? I can tell my experience too. Just fought against team that was almost full of bruisers with lot of hp. Guess what happened?
They were crushed after their mid game domination. Even when we were behind and they had baron buff, we did manage to win them in team fight. You know why?
Because we never focused beefy ones first, and we actually did build % items.
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Posted 1/29/2013 1:32:15 PMAfter 2 Shens i must stop reading...
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Posted 1/28/2013 11:35:14 AMThey just need to fix the black cleaver. Then armor would be worth building, then HP stacking would go down, then %health would go down.
But as of this moment, yes, %health is OP. (though not quite as OP as to be this rant-tastic).
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Posted 1/28/2013 11:14:52 AMI haven't seen a single one of Hashinshin's articles where he isn't wambulancing about how UP everything is. I actually hate it every time he gets a post.
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Posted 1/28/2013 10:58:37 AMi still build malph with 300 armor and it feels fine <3
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Posted 1/28/2013 10:23:16 AMShen and Olaf aren't tanks though right?
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Posted 1/28/2013 9:55:57 AMIt's funny how Hashinshin can make me believe that this awesome game is really bad. It sounds like the environment debate. It sounds horrible and no matter what you do nothing gets better.
But about the article I feel that maybe that's why Elise suddenly gotten so much stronger now. Don't take me wrong. She is strong as fuck right now with her %health based dmg.
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Posted 1/28/2013 6:19:51 AMclicked on this article randomly for something to read
got 1/3 of the way through this article and I suddenly thought "wait, this isn't hanshinshin is it???"
Scroll up ... Laugh .... Close