Is %health damage even required anymore in Season 3?

With tanks being a little less than good to play lately, lets call it subpar, a key concept keeps showing up in every game that seems to defeat the purpose of tanks: %health damage. Riot has decided that stacking resistances forcing a LW/Void Staff on to people to continue to hurt you was a bad mechanic, so they OBLITERATED resistances and made them practically pointless to buy in mass. However, they made health so a little bit cheaper and far easier to buy in mass. (Hell, a lot easier to buy in mass. Like, a LOT easier.) Where as in Season 2 it was a good idea to have about 3000 HP and a heap of resistances, now it's a good idea to have 4000+ HP and a chunk of resistances.

 

So what changes from Season 2?

Resistances were devalued. A lot. Where as in Season 2 a single chain vest was enough to make most physical damage users cringe and be unable to fight you that same chain vest will do little to stop the pain train in Season 3. Frozen Heart used to be the go-to for anti-physical damage, and in Season 3 Frozen Heart will merely slow down Ranged Carries and do very little to AD casters. HOWEVER, total damage dealt went down. IE went to 70 damage,  ranged crits only get 5% instead of 10% bonus damage through masteries, Deathcap lost some %AP and flat AP, Etc. In addition to THAT health got cheaper and much easier to find in large quantities. 

So resistances are worth less, health is cheaper, and total damage is lower. Damage as a whole is HIGHER mind you, just the damage before resistances went down. Look at it as you used to do 10 damage reduced by 4 from resistances, and now you deal 8 damage reduced by 2 from resistances. So what's the natural end result? People stack health now. It used to be stacking health was a death sentence because the damage dealt before resistances was so crazy high it was a death sentence to not stack resistances. Now the damage is a bit lower but you can stack health and get defense against magic and physical damage easier. Now mind you you still must get some resistances so you don't get hit by true damage because EVERYONE just stacks flat pen now.

As an aside it's somewhat of a Myth that Health stacking got better because the items got better. Warmogs is worse than in Season 2, Randuins gained 250 health but lost 5% CDR, 25 HP10, and lost it's active slowing attack speed. So it's easier to "Get health" but only because everything that didn't give health got nerfed so badly.

And mind you, it's not like tanks are super tanky as is.

Nobody is running in to teams and tanking them all. There isn't some plague of tanks dominating the game. %health damage just takes a class that is generally hurting and just makes it impossible for them to do their job. Granted there are some tanks that are doing great, but as a whole tanks are not doing great. Additionally, Warmogs being a good item that everyone builds doesn't immediately make Rammus good. 

So why is %health damage such an issue now? Why not Season 2?

Some people still might not get it, so lets put it in to perspective. Damage are doing less total flat damage, but having far more resistances. Put that together in your mind. %health damage is doing more damage than ever. Last Season I'd have 3000 HP, but I'd also have 150 MR and 250 armor. Now I'll have 4000 HP and maybe 150 armor 100 MR. What's the end result? %health damage is MASSSSSSIVE right now. Why do you think everyone and their mother is buying Liandry's Torment?  You're fighting more HP that has less resistances. %health damage got nothing but a flat buff. 

So ask yourself: "Why does %health damage even exist if tanks aren't even close to an issue?" Has anyone had issues killing tanks without %health damage? Is Ezreal going "damn, tanks are just impossible to kill!" Is Talon sitting there thinking "if only there was some way for me to fight tanks!" No, they aren't. Nobody has issues killing tanks. Most tanks are even building damage now because they realize the futility of building tanky. Nobody is playing Amumu and just going full tank, people are building Liandry's, sunfire, and abyssal on Amumu. That's a huge shift away from people building full tank, because full tank loses even without %health damage, and %health damage exists to boots. 

As always, look at it on a case-by-case basis.

I'm not saying ALL %HEALTH DAMAGE IS OP AND CLEARLY NERFNERFNERF. I never say that about anything. YOU people say that. Generalizing is the key to stupidity. Liandry's torment likewise gives flat magic pen to kill squishies, but also gives %health damage to kill tanks? Why does DFG and Evelyn do %health damage if they're (burst casters) supposed to be countered by tanks? Why does Varus get %health damage if AD casters have always been the premiere tank killers anyway? So he would keep using his abilities late game? If that's really the problem then maybe Riot should look at his ability scaling versus auto attack scaling. 

Counter Argument: %health damage exists so people don't stack health!

So where's my %AP damage? My %AD damage? Why is Veigar the only champion that punishes people for building AP? Why are defenses the only thing that gets punished for getting stacked? Lets take it a step further, I think DFG should be changed from 15% HP damage to do 100% of the opponent's AP + 150% of their AD as damage. Why not? Balancing something off of what your opponent does has always been a stupid concept. It gets even stupider however when you restrict it to only things your opponent does for survivability then put it on a whole bunch of different items and effects as free bonuses. Imagine for a second if Leblanc lost 10 damage on her Q, but in return she gains 50% of the target's AP damage as damage on her Q. 

What if there was an item that reduced your attack speed to 0.7 no matter what your current attack speed was. Would that be fun for on-hit users and AD casters? Why would such an item need to exist? What about if Trundle's Q was changed to steal 30% of your total AD? These effects would not be desirable or fun to play against. The only reason we accept %health damage (and by extension %armor/MR shreds) is because they've been around for so long that we've just sort of gotten used to them. The problem now though is that the compensation for these effects has swung in to a fair level, where it isn't fair for people that don't have %health damage. Fair for those that do, unfair for those that don't. Doesn't that sound like the definition of bad balance? 

If, for example, AD carries just became so ungodly OP that they could wade in and 1v5 teams would the natural approach to the situation be to include items that practically shut down AD carries single handedly? An item that hard capped your attack speed at a 0.7 rate before attack speed slows? No, that'd be a silly approach and it'd be totally unfun to face. Unfortunately that's very much a reality for health right now. 

Players should not be punished for their choices, unless those choices show a real balance concern when done. Is health stacking dominating the game? Maybe it is. But shouldn't that be a concern with the health items themselves? Maybe it isn't, then why does %health damage exist? See this game, I call it the game of: Stop being lazy and balance properly.

In fact, let me say that in big paragraph letters: Players should not be punished for their choices unless those choices represent a real balance concern, a balance concern that only shows up when stacking/boating/spamming/etc. occurs.

If something isn't overpowered yet has a counter, it must be made overpowered to beat that counter. This is actually the main point of this article but it's such a short point to make.

Where am I going with this? A little health but not a lot was good in Season 2. %health damage kept it down pretty hard. In season 3 it got compensated. Like, grossly overcompensated. Why? Because %health damage exists in such large quantities! I won't actually make a big paragraph out of this because it's pretty apparent to anyone playing the game right now what happened. 

And I think the end result is just too many effects exist out there to punish tanks which is a remnant of a better time for tanks. 

The time when you could build full tank Nasus, wade in to the opposing team and once you withered the AD carry you would never die. That's done now. That's a myth. That doesn't happen anymore. Nobody does that anymore. The only people who think that happens anymore are Riot who for some reason have made balance mistake after balance mistake in regards to tanks until they finally went one step too far and ended most tanks overnight. Riot could always make mistakes because tank items like FH were just so damn good that tanks could take the hit. Now they can't anymore. The problem here is Riot has NEVER had to go back and actually do anything for tanks because they've always worked well. 

So what will Riot do? Are we going to nerf health a lot and just end up saying "well I guess that's that!" or... well I know that's what we are going to do. I just wish we'de take more time to look at the game and go "okay yeah this clearly isn't working." I mean it's one thing to just chase around numbers with a nerf hammer, it's a less lazy and more surgical approach to actually get in there and fix problems. 

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @HASHINSHIN.

96

Comments

  • #59 FleurDeLiz

    How was Cho buffed? Free HP likes resists more than it likes more HP

     

  • #55 m1spl4ced

    What the fuck did I just read. It was so confusing and most of it pointless, all I got out of it was "Butthurt, butthurt wah wah riot balance the game how I like it butthurt ranting".
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just This so many times.

  • #29 FleurDeLiz

    This reads like your "Why does Riot love AP so much" article and is about as well argued, as in, not at all well argued.

  • #28 natemiddleman2

    I hate his writing style but I have to agree with his point. The only viable tanks are ones who get their job done without being tanky. Amumu, Malph, and Shen all have their ults to keep them viable. Cho and Mao have a ton of cc. These are just about the only viable tanks at the moment. I have stopped building Frozen Heart because why buy armor when armor penetration is so high and health is so much cheaper. But then every mage is building liandrys. So then I need to build mr, but mr has been nerfed to almost nonexistence. Bulwark is is op because every mage has at least that much penetration, but supports rush that so the aura is wasted on most of the team and it becomes an inefficient item. Twin Shadows does not give enough mr, Spirit visage does not give any ms with a passive that doesn't do much on most tanks. Armor may have been too cheap, but now its too expensive and 17% worse (54 max % armor pen S3 vs 45 S2 (1-(45/54))=16.666).

  • #38 Spura

    Lol bulwark wasted. Just because someone has 30 MPen, that doesn't make 30 MR aura useless. On people who have base MR of 30, bulwark increases their survivability by 30% against someone with 30 MPen. They would have 0 MR against that enemy, now they have 30 MR. 

    Against people with flat penetration, adding armor and MR always increases effective HP by the same amount! And the less armor or MR people have, the bigger % survivability increase this increase in effective HP becomes. Even % based pen penalizes high stacks of armor and mr far more than low stacks, so getting a bit of armor helps. Bulwark is simply amazing.

  • #27 DramaticFanatic

    Redundant, circular, inconclusive, illogical and frustrating to read. If you are going to write an article, make it short and to the point - especially if it's a provocative opinion. I leave here not knowing where you stand and given advice on the downfall of generalization and stupidity. There's a hard opinion delivered somewhere in this article, only it is masked by ass-covering remarks such as "look at it on a case by case basis," countless "I'm not saying that all X are Y," and "maybe this, maybe that, and sometimes the other thing." Not that any of the aforementioned ideas are wrong to disclose in a well thought-out, unbiased, and organized argument - only that this article lacks any of these redeeming qualities.

    Last edited by DramaticFanatic on 1/27/2013 8:28:32 PM
  • #25 keLston

    Who is Hashinshin and why is he allowed to continue to write about the meta? If health stacking and bruiser tanks are not a problem, the unbuffed Olaf wouldn't suddenly go from occasional pick to 100% pick/ban build 3 giant's belts.

    When rushing Warmog's Katarina is now a thing, you can't write an article that health sucks and tanking sucks.

    Last edited by keLston on 1/27/2013 7:15:28 PM
  • #37 Spura

    Tanks mostly suck. NOT bruisers built tanky... is this too hard to understand? Stop dragging Olaf into this as he is NOT A TANK.

  • #57 FleurDeLiz

    Tanks whose designs suck, suck. Tanks whose designs don't, don't.

    Quit trying to rationalize away the success that Shen, Amumu and Cho'gath are all too capable of having. They are all obviously still quite strong champions, and it is down to them having something over the others that have fallen into the shadows.

    For Naut in particular, what has done him in is the new jungle kicks him in the teeth. Sej was never a big thing to begin with.

  • #64 keLston

    Quote from Spura »

    Tanks mostly suck. NOT bruisers built tanky... is this too hard to understand? Stop dragging Olaf into this as he is NOT A TANK.


    Except consider who wrote this. Hashinshin. He plays exclusively top lane bruisers. Randomly crying about tanks is meaningless.

    Even further, both Shen and Amumu have seen as much recent success as Olaf and both are tanks. Cho'gath as well when Amumu is unavailable or banned. How many champions in the game are actually pure tanks?

    In his crying, I mean he brings up Rammus. Rammus has seen more play in tournaments in these last few qualifiers than he has in MONTHS and he's being picked by Korean teams, accepted as some of the best in the world. If tanks are at the worst they have ever been and Rammus is suddenly picked at tournaments now, then where was he before now? Worse than worst ever? Is that even possible?

  • #24 Mockstar

    I understand your argument and humbly disagree. If a tank gets fed, they are unstoppable, which is why Shen specifically is still broken. He's just incredibly strong if he gets a single early kill.

    I will agree that tanks are weaker, but I don't think they are pointless to play. I think they are closer to fair now than they were in S2.

    Preparing for the climb is scary.

  • #23 Waaargh

    There is not a huge difference between S2 and S3. Those principles that worked in S2 are still valid. Having a bruiser with lots of gold on the team to buy defensive items with works. This is what we see in tournaments on successful teams and what we try to mimic in our own games.

    The reason for tuning down the defensive items was simply that they made the game more boring. Riot has tuned up aggressive play, and made it so kills come faster. There are still individual adjustments that had to be made, such as Eve because she makes killing happen too fast. Bad core game mechanics (having unkillable champs or plain OP champs) should be addressed.

    I disagree about %-damage being a bad thing, tho of course it has to be working properly... Actually the very same resists put a big bad NO sign in front of %-based damage.

    Hashinshin says tanks are becoming sub par. No, some champion design have shown to be sub par. Front line CC'ers still do what they are supposed to. Bruisers with strong damage still work well: Olaf and Jax and other successful champion designs. CC and surviving damage soaks are a strong combo and always will be in LoL.

    My last dime will be spend on asking why AD casters are anti-tanks/bruisers? Just like AP casters, if they can finish the job in one go, then yes jobs a good 'un, but the rest of the time the show just stops right there. Mind you BC is still being tinkered with. AD casters are often assassins and are aiming at getting to the soft parts on the enemy team, which are much more interesting to sink a knife/spear/scythed claw into. Killing Olaf just seems like a terribad idea as Talon... let me rephrase that: Actually killing him sounds wonderful, but trying and most likely failing sounds like terribad idea as Talon.

     

    Hashinshin, keep writing your articles. At the very least they are provocative. I enjoy reading them and put some thought into the state of the game. While at it, I'd like to hear your view on which tanks and bruisers are working and why and how (not what's wrong with them). Xin is becoming more and more popular, what's up with that happening so late? Who will be the next Big Thing (Vi?)? Sharing is caring, Hashinshin :)

  • #22 Gameguy301
    Your % AD and % AP arguement doesn't make sense not every one has those stats, every one has health. it's kind of a requirement.
    Casters always have some AD from base values but the only time an AD champion will have AP is if they have baron, or trinity force. (Maybe frozen fist) hp is from 2k minimum to 5k being the most you'd have with a passable build that's 250% difference. AD goes from 100 to 400 with a reasonable build that's a 400% difference. Ap goes from 0 minimum to up to 600 an undefined difference. The variance is too high to truly be comparable in term of balance.

    Is %hp out of proportion from the season 3 stat shifting? Probably. is it so crazy broken tanks are unviable? No. Is it poor design that it exists? No it fills a niche a deterrent against tanks that is not CC. Use it to peel in team fights. Are Shen, Olaf, and Elise building full tank and top priority picks and bans? Yes
    Last edited by Gameguy301 on 1/28/2013 12:22:53 AM
  • #26 Gunthore

    Everyone has ad and ap. Not everyone stacks both but most everyone stacks one or the other. Everyone has hp, not everyone stacks it. 

  • #19 aceofsween

    Out of curiosity...  Do you proof read your articles at all?  I can sum this up entire article very concisely:

    Resistances are worse; therefore, health is better.  Health being better makes %HP damage more useful, which is bad for the game.

    And all that without the exaggeration, condescension, and overall whiny attitude presented in the article.  Instead of complaining endlessly about what Riot has/should done, these types of opinion articles would be much more effective if written from the stance of "This is how the game is" instead of some fantasy utopian game dreamed up by the author.

  • To post a comment, please login or register a new account.