With tanks being a little less than good to play lately, lets call it subpar, a key concept keeps showing up in every game that seems to defeat the purpose of tanks: %health damage. Riot has decided that stacking resistances forcing a LW/Void Staff on to people to continue to hurt you was a bad mechanic, so they OBLITERATED resistances and made them practically pointless to buy in mass. However, they made health so a little bit cheaper and far easier to buy in mass. (Hell, a lot easier to buy in mass. Like, a LOT easier.) Where as in Season 2 it was a good idea to have about 3000 HP and a heap of resistances, now it's a good idea to have 4000+ HP and a chunk of resistances.
So what changes from Season 2?
Resistances were devalued. A lot. Where as in Season 2 a single chain vest was enough to make most physical damage users cringe and be unable to fight you that same chain vest will do little to stop the pain train in Season 3. Frozen Heart used to be the go-to for anti-physical damage, and in Season 3 Frozen Heart will merely slow down Ranged Carries and do very little to AD casters. HOWEVER, total damage dealt went down. IE went to 70 damage, ranged crits only get 5% instead of 10% bonus damage through masteries, Deathcap lost some %AP and flat AP, Etc. In addition to THAT health got cheaper and much easier to find in large quantities.
So resistances are worth less, health is cheaper, and total damage is lower. Damage as a whole is HIGHER mind you, just the damage before resistances went down. Look at it as you used to do 10 damage reduced by 4 from resistances, and now you deal 8 damage reduced by 2 from resistances. So what's the natural end result? People stack health now. It used to be stacking health was a death sentence because the damage dealt before resistances was so crazy high it was a death sentence to not stack resistances. Now the damage is a bit lower but you can stack health and get defense against magic and physical damage easier. Now mind you you still must get some resistances so you don't get hit by true damage because EVERYONE just stacks flat pen now.
As an aside it's somewhat of a Myth that Health stacking got better because the items got better. Warmogs is worse than in Season 2, Randuins gained 250 health but lost 5% CDR, 25 HP10, and lost it's active slowing attack speed. So it's easier to "Get health" but only because everything that didn't give health got nerfed so badly.
And mind you, it's not like tanks are super tanky as is.
Nobody is running in to teams and tanking them all. There isn't some plague of tanks dominating the game. %health damage just takes a class that is generally hurting and just makes it impossible for them to do their job. Granted there are some tanks that are doing great, but as a whole tanks are not doing great. Additionally, Warmogs being a good item that everyone builds doesn't immediately make Rammus good.
So why is %health damage such an issue now? Why not Season 2?
Some people still might not get it, so lets put it in to perspective. Damage are doing less total flat damage, but having far more resistances. Put that together in your mind. %health damage is doing more damage than ever. Last Season I'd have 3000 HP, but I'd also have 150 MR and 250 armor. Now I'll have 4000 HP and maybe 150 armor 100 MR. What's the end result? %health damage is MASSSSSSIVE right now. Why do you think everyone and their mother is buying Liandry's Torment? You're fighting more HP that has less resistances. %health damage got nothing but a flat buff.
So ask yourself: "Why does %health damage even exist if tanks aren't even close to an issue?" Has anyone had issues killing tanks without %health damage? Is Ezreal going "damn, tanks are just impossible to kill!" Is Talon sitting there thinking "if only there was some way for me to fight tanks!" No, they aren't. Nobody has issues killing tanks. Most tanks are even building damage now because they realize the futility of building tanky. Nobody is playing Amumu and just going full tank, people are building Liandry's, sunfire, and abyssal on Amumu. That's a huge shift away from people building full tank, because full tank loses even without %health damage, and %health damage exists to boots.
As always, look at it on a case-by-case basis.
I'm not saying ALL %HEALTH DAMAGE IS OP AND CLEARLY NERFNERFNERF. I never say that about anything. YOU people say that. Generalizing is the key to stupidity. Liandry's torment likewise gives flat magic pen to kill squishies, but also gives %health damage to kill tanks? Why does DFG and Evelyn do %health damage if they're (burst casters) supposed to be countered by tanks? Why does Varus get %health damage if AD casters have always been the premiere tank killers anyway? So he would keep using his abilities late game? If that's really the problem then maybe Riot should look at his ability scaling versus auto attack scaling.
Counter Argument: %health damage exists so people don't stack health!
So where's my %AP damage? My %AD damage? Why is Veigar the only champion that punishes people for building AP? Why are defenses the only thing that gets punished for getting stacked? Lets take it a step further, I think DFG should be changed from 15% HP damage to do 100% of the opponent's AP + 150% of their AD as damage. Why not? Balancing something off of what your opponent does has always been a stupid concept. It gets even stupider however when you restrict it to only things your opponent does for survivability then put it on a whole bunch of different items and effects as free bonuses. Imagine for a second if Leblanc lost 10 damage on her Q, but in return she gains 50% of the target's AP damage as damage on her Q.
What if there was an item that reduced your attack speed to 0.7 no matter what your current attack speed was. Would that be fun for on-hit users and AD casters? Why would such an item need to exist? What about if Trundle's Q was changed to steal 30% of your total AD? These effects would not be desirable or fun to play against. The only reason we accept %health damage (and by extension %armor/MR shreds) is because they've been around for so long that we've just sort of gotten used to them. The problem now though is that the compensation for these effects has swung in to a fair level, where it isn't fair for people that don't have %health damage. Fair for those that do, unfair for those that don't. Doesn't that sound like the definition of bad balance?
If, for example, AD carries just became so ungodly OP that they could wade in and 1v5 teams would the natural approach to the situation be to include items that practically shut down AD carries single handedly? An item that hard capped your attack speed at a 0.7 rate before attack speed slows? No, that'd be a silly approach and it'd be totally unfun to face. Unfortunately that's very much a reality for health right now.
Players should not be punished for their choices, unless those choices show a real balance concern when done. Is health stacking dominating the game? Maybe it is. But shouldn't that be a concern with the health items themselves? Maybe it isn't, then why does %health damage exist? See this game, I call it the game of: Stop being lazy and balance properly.
In fact, let me say that in big paragraph letters: Players should not be punished for their choices unless those choices represent a real balance concern, a balance concern that only shows up when stacking/boating/spamming/etc. occurs.
If something isn't overpowered yet has a counter, it must be made overpowered to beat that counter. This is actually the main point of this article but it's such a short point to make.
Where am I going with this? A little health but not a lot was good in Season 2. %health damage kept it down pretty hard. In season 3 it got compensated. Like, grossly overcompensated. Why? Because %health damage exists in such large quantities! I won't actually make a big paragraph out of this because it's pretty apparent to anyone playing the game right now what happened.
And I think the end result is just too many effects exist out there to punish tanks which is a remnant of a better time for tanks.
The time when you could build full tank Nasus, wade in to the opposing team and once you withered the AD carry you would never die. That's done now. That's a myth. That doesn't happen anymore. Nobody does that anymore. The only people who think that happens anymore are Riot who for some reason have made balance mistake after balance mistake in regards to tanks until they finally went one step too far and ended most tanks overnight. Riot could always make mistakes because tank items like FH were just so damn good that tanks could take the hit. Now they can't anymore. The problem here is Riot has NEVER had to go back and actually do anything for tanks because they've always worked well.
So what will Riot do? Are we going to nerf health a lot and just end up saying "well I guess that's that!" or... well I know that's what we are going to do. I just wish we'de take more time to look at the game and go "okay yeah this clearly isn't working." I mean it's one thing to just chase around numbers with a nerf hammer, it's a less lazy and more surgical approach to actually get in there and fix problems.
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Posted 1/27/2013 5:31:14 PMLiandry's is barely a counter to stacking hp. Sure, the bonus Brand passive is nice, but 1. When you're bursting somebody, Liandry's barely gets to burn for its full duration more than once, and 2. Almost every tank has Warmogs now, and the %hp regen from Warmogs completely negates Liandry's.
DFG- deathfire grasp's % hp damage got nerfed. Now it no longer scales with your AP. Its still a good item, imo, but against tanks... you can no longer take out a third of somebody hp with DFG. So tanks became stronger.
BotRK- Just like Madred's Bloodrazor. Barely anybody ever gets it. And if I remember it right, it no longer deals % max hp, but % current hp. Plus its only 4% I think, you can only truly take advantage of this if you have massive AS, like Kog'maw for example.
Vayne, elise, Evelynn, anybody with %hp damage in their kit: These champs are made to counter high hp enemies like Cho or Olaf. Yes, these champs are all pretty good right now, but its their job to be able to do damage against tanks. On the subject of whether they need a nerf or not... that's another argument.
Conclusion: Stacking hp is really good, tanks are still good. Just because there's some new items and a new champ (Elise) that can do % hp damage doesn't mean tanks are bad now. They're still hard as fuck to kill.
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Posted 1/27/2013 5:25:23 PMAnother Hashinshin post full of exaggeration, incoherency and flat out fallacy.
Ho hum. I guess we're in a 0 tank meta despite everyone stacking warmog's and Liandry's being mathematically proven to be bad on anything that isn't a designated sustained damage caster; despite champions like Amumu, Malphite and Maokai still being just as potent and BotRK being barely ever seen.
Kay.
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Posted 1/27/2013 5:58:32 PMHashinshin your blaming us for generalizing your posts, 17 paragraphs leaves a lot of room or interpretation keep it short and too the point, and you won't face that problem.
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Posted 1/27/2013 4:47:57 PMI wish this site had a feature that automatically screened from view articles by certain writers, as it pains me to think my extra view stat encourages them in however small a way to continue writing more. It's my own fault for not checking, but it would still be a welcome feature.
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Posted 1/27/2013 4:45:19 PMwait i thought tanks are gods right now and is the reason why kat and eve are building as tanks. i'm confused
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Posted 1/27/2013 5:21:43 PMThey are building as tanks, but aren't tanks. Every champion can build tanky, that doesn't make them tanks.
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Posted 1/27/2013 4:37:03 PMTanks are still great. The problem is that some of them can't lane (e.g. Rammus).
Stacking HP is a problem, but has nothing to do with tanks. Everybody stacks it (bruisers and tanks and even AP champs want ROAs and other stuff if possible; supports have HP on all of their items).
% HP dmg is not a problem:
- Vayne is too weak and supposed to kill everybody late game. She is still very squishy and has not the best range. Her early game is pretty bad and most of her dmg is still AA dmg and not her W. Also Frozen Heart or Randuins Omen help great against her.
- WW is not OP and he does % of max HP dmg and even heals himself.
- BotRK is really strong on some champs, but I would say it is only OP on Ad jungle Yi (very underestimated currently), but that alone doesn't make Yi OP, it is only the best possible item choice.
- Liandry's Torment. And that item is a small problem. There you are right. Champs like Vlad or Karthus have no real problems with tanks. They can survive them and get SV if needed while dealing DPs. They don't burst. But exactly these champs got it. But that it is % of current HP weakens it.
On the other side, AP champs like Annie maybe want to get HG but Torment is not the thing they want to get next and they have the same problem as in S2. Even when you don't need to upgrade items as fast as in S2 cause they don't have such big bonuses, you will limit your item build if you get it.
I think Riot should make a second upgrade version for that item. Something more useful for burst casters.
Actually every item should have 2 ways of getting upgraded. HG, Madreds, Sightstone and QSS are the only items that have only one upgrade. And for HG I don't like it.
Madreds, Sightstone are getting bought for one purpose and the upgrades are making it better.
QSS can be bought by AP champs but there is no upgrade for them. Still ok, cause QSS is already weaker than in S2 and the current upgrade is way too expensive for AD and only good as a 6th item.
And HG is actually good for every AP and it should have an upgrade for burst AP champs.
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Posted 1/27/2013 5:55:52 PMI think Madred's should have a second AS based item. I think it would be welcome for champs like WW, Xin Zhao or Shen. That way they have an item to build after Madred's since most people who play those champs sit on a Madred's because the cost for Wriggle's is just not worth it for some of them. Who know there might be other champs who build Spirit Stone, and sat on it, now will build the new AS Madred's.
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Posted 1/27/2013 4:28:47 PMWarmog's is so strong early-mid game that it is often the first item any tanky champion will build. If the jungler and the top laner build it, what's the point of having a tank? You already have 2 tanks that can also deal damage. This is the reason why full tanks are underplayed.
Players don't build Warmog's because health is OP and worth stacking. They build a Warmog's because it's the most cost-effective defensive item. It is also a lot stronger to get it early than it is to get it late, as the health it gives you is more significant when you have very little of it, so they rush it. Warmog's is a no-brainer.
I disagree with the ranting about stacking. %pen or %health exist to make sure you build your defensive stats with some balance. Stack health and you get punished. Stack resistances and you get punished. This is common sense, if those %health items did not exist people would stack health even more than they do now.
About the offensive stats stacking, I could not disagree more. How do you punish a champion stacking AD or AP? By killing him. CC him and kill him, simple as that. Now how do you punish a champion stacking health without %health damage?
Riot does not want anything to have no counterplay, or else everybody would abuse it and the game would become a contest about who can abuse the OP stuff the best (League of Cleavers). We NEED %health damage as it prevents the game from falling into a 1 strategy wins all pit.
As for the Warmog's, since rushing it has become such a no-brainer it needs to be nerfed in some way. It is too strong early game yet not worth stacking, so it's early game only should be affected. Granting 640 health + 20 health/level is an example of how this could be done, but I don't think it would be enough.
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Posted 1/27/2013 4:11:35 PMI'm of the opposite opinion. I think % -damage is far too weak and tanks far too strong. This is coming from a guy who mains Lulu/Maokai and stacks health 24/7 btw.
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Posted 1/27/2013 3:57:27 PMI seriusly wish they would reduce all hp items by atleast half of theyr value...i mean just look at it i just lost 6 games in a row becouse enemy team all had warmog's...imagine a vayne with warmogs AND her %health true dmg....i mean wtf is this game now, league of warmogs and hp only?
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Posted 1/27/2013 3:50:20 PMI have the feeling that riot has no idea how to balance their own damn game. If they found something not working they just nerf it to oblivion instead of taking time to think why things aren't working and balance accordingly. Spamming new stuff isn't gonna solve the problem with old stuff.
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Posted 1/27/2013 3:12:49 PMthat post was pretty incoherent.
generally I like your writing but this one needs to be edited by a 3rd party or something.
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Posted 1/27/2013 3:10:47 PMI've seen some pro ADc players build Blade of the Ruined King, but yet it isn't a cookie cutter standard AD build. Hope Riot doesn't nerf warmogs
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Posted 1/27/2013 3:10:23 PMnice article, i can't agree more