In Season 2 ADCs had the issue where they were all looking very same-y. They all stood there and auto attack'd, they all used a (typically Q) ability with good base damage but low/no scaling, had an escape, some sort of AoE ultimate, etc. MOST IMPORTANTLY though, they all built the same items, progressed at about the same pace, and did very similar ... everything. Well Season 3 rolled around and Riot changed up ADCs and items drastically to further differentiate early game ADCs from end game (no more hypercarry/early game Ezreal) on top of changing their playstyles drastically. Ezreal builds more kitey, Kog'maw builds more hypercarry, Sivir builds more mid-game-y and etc. This is done through Iceborne Gauntlet, Static Shiv, Phantom Dancer, whether or not you're gonna get IE early, etc. However, bruisers on the other hand are now all building Warmogs/sunfire as their starting items, and all starting to feel very same-y.
Bruisers used to be different.
You could tell which bruisers were gonna do what based on their starting item choices. Sunfire? Probably the initiate tank. Trinity? Probably a melee carry. Wit's end? Going up against an AP opponent. Manamune? You're Yorick. Frozen Heart? Lots of base HP and needs CDR. Now what do all bruisers do? Warmogs/sunfire. Jax? Warmogs/sunfire. Olaf? Warmog/sunfire. Cho'gath? Warmogs/sunfire. Three completely different playstyles and roles, all 3 doing the same thing. Going in to the middle of the opposing team and using their girth and sunfire aura to damage enemies with base damage while taking as many hits as they can until they die. (Them or their allies.)
Used to be Jax would be more of a melee carry. Now he's just another sunfire/warmogs doll. That's very telling right there. And I'm going to show you why exactly this happened to so many different champions:
Bruisers tend to scale very poorly, damage wise.
Olaf lost his 30 pen and only gets it on his ultimate now. Jax has a total of 1.0 AD ratio, and slow building attack speed. Irelia has a total 3.4 AD ratio (2.4 on her ult.) Udyr has a good attack speed but only 1.5 AD ratio, and no ult. Volibear has actually 0.0 bonus AD since his Q takes the place of his auto. Get what I'm going at here? Bruisers tend to get very little out of damage items, and since they don't really get to auto attack much (unless they're Olaf and can just say WHAT CC?!) they don't get much out of that either. In fact, mages probably attack more than bruisers.
So wait, how did bruisers get damage! You lie hashinshin, they used to build damage.
They used to build *NON SCALING* damage items. Trinity force, Wit's end, Sunfire, and that stupid lightning item that was removed. Phage was nerfed, heavily, making going Trinity really burdensome now. Wit's end got more expensive for 10 less MR (yeah that was a good idea ROIT.) As always Riot made the stupid mistake of assuming that players would continue to use weak/nerfed ideas simply because they used them before. Wroooong. Jax isn't going to continue to build Trinity if Phage went up 150 gold and got its stats nerfed to boot, his laning phase would be left in shambles. Not to mention Trinity itself became a LOT weaker than before. (It lost 5% crit, 50 mana, 5% slow, and 4% MS)
So people aren't just going to continue to use weak nerfed ideas?
No, they aren't. When Trinity gets slapped around with enough nerfs to choke a horse AND becomes weaker while building it people say "okay eff it, Trinity is off the menu." When MR becomes practically irrelevant AND wit's end loses MR AND it goes up in price people just say "okay eff it, Wit's End is off the menu." When that stupid lightning item gets removed... well yeah people just can't buy it.
It isn't that bruisers don't want to build damage, it's that all the damage build paths suck. (Kinda.)
Bruisers would loooove to build damage, but all the damage build paths simply just blow. Not to mention that the tanky build paths are just blatantly superior right now. What's more likely to win a game, a Wit's End for 2200 gold that does extremely little to slow down magic damage taken due to the fact that it's easier to penetrate now + void staff is being rushed far more since it adds way more damage than it did pre-patch (due to MATH!) ... or a 2000 gold Locket of the Iron Solari that gives 400 HP, 35 armor, 10 HP10, 10% CDR, and an amazing active to help your team win team fights. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is... just blatantly superior. Like mindbogglingly so. I mean who can compare Wit's End and Solari and say "Yes, these are accurately cost when compared against each other."
But now, it's just obvious that building full tank is the way to go.
With damage so weak, and tankiness so strong, people took all their stock out of building offensive, and put it all in to building defensive. Any particular reasons why anyone can imagine? First off, it was always best to put most of your money in to defensive items. That's called min/maxing right there.
Min/maxing!
Why go 50/50 when you can just go 100/0 and that 100 scales off itself, so you're really going 110/0 instead of 50/50. Health makes resistances stronger, resistances make health stronger. Anyone ever play Path of Exile? Why would I get armor and evasion, instead of just armor? Well in PoE instead of gear that gives armor/evasion giving 50/50 it actually gives 60/60. Starts to look a little more even now right? Even then with the 60/60 split (AKA 20% free stats) most people STILL prefer to just stack on one stat or the other. (Because MATH, and RNG!)
But more importantly, min/maxing does an important feature for every game. If I can make my tanks 100% tanky, and my damage 100% damage-y, then aren't I doing my best job? Many games struggle to get over this hurdle.
Hence, full tank for everyone!
A big problem that league has is that building full tank is actually a viable real option. The ability to go sunfire/warmogs/omen/BV is a very real idea out there. It works too. Not many games simply ALLOW you to build 100% tank. In most games you either don't have enough base damage to not build tanky, or you don't have simply the ABILITY to build full tank. (Also in most games not building defense gets you laughed at since it's such a stupid idea, so before you go "herp derp full tank shouldn't be allowed" yeah well neither should full damage you fucking ADCs.)
It simply comes down to the matter of "I'm going to run in to their team, and they're all going to focus me to death... so why WOULDN'T I build full tank?"And since their tank is building full tank YOU need to build full tank to respond. Irelia going sunfire/warmogs? I need to go sunfire/warmogs on Jax or she'll out tank me in team fights and my team will lose. Min/maxing!
But in DotA!
Now this is two fold. THIS IS TWO FOLD. Don't go bitching "oh in DotA you bla bla bla" in DotA tanks got damage for building health. Strength gave them, DIRECTLY, damage and health. Now that's two fold right there. It means in DotA building health gave you damage, BUT there were very few ways to actually build health without getting damage (for tanks.) What's more, not building some sort of defense in DotA was somewhat of a travesty and very few heroes A. Could do it safely, B. Were encouraged to do it. So all you DotA naysayers get out.
The most important thing to remember, mind you:
Melee run in, they get CC'd, they get CC'd, more CC, and die. There tends to be very little option for a melee champion to do anything besides building full tank. That's a big reason why they're all building full tank. All the major tournament teams have realized this. If Olaf can build BC and get some good damage... why would he if he's just gonna die before doing it? If I do 10 damage every 3 seconds, or 5 damage every 3 seconds but live 3 times longer who ends up REALLY doing more damage?
So what is the end result, what does it all mean?
It means everyone is building full tank on melee, because everyone can build full tank on melee, so everyone does build full tank on melee. Because min/maxing deems it the best idea. Because there is no advantage to splitting my gold, but all the advantage to NOT splitting my gold.
What would you do hashinshin?
First, I think Riot really needs to open up more options for building damage. It shouldn't be this 50/50 crap when you build a damage item because all the tanks are going to look at an item like that and go "wait why would I split my resources?" Much like how the supports don't get gold so the ADC gets 100% of them (despite many supports getting very good scaling now) why would I split my gold between tank items and defensive items? As such, damage/tank items like Wit's End needs to be giving more 60/60 rather than 50/50.
YES, that does mean going a damage/tanky path will beat a tanky/tanky path 1v1 every time due to better gold. Hell, it means bruisers will pretty much beat everyone 1v1 who doesn't split their gold. However, isn't that what it should be? If you're min/maxing and going full damage and going full tankiness in preparation for team fights, and I'm splitting my gold and being worse off in team fights for it, then I SHOULD frankly be better in 1v1. Ezreal and his Iceborne Gauntlet tends to be impossible to 1v1, so why shouldn't a bruiser who didn't min/max?
Second, we need more GOOD items for bruisers for damage. I'm not asking for 2000 gold super ridiculous wit's end back but I do want some similar options. Wit's End is somewhat of a ... thing because magic damage on hit doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy. Wait what's that I just said, it doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy? So make them scale! Trinity gets 150% of attack damage, it doesn't just come out of the gate and say "okay here's 170 damage!" it starts lower. Likewise, we need more items like Lizard Elder that scale with the bruiser a bit, because lizard elder is honestly the only damage item (sparingly if ever) being built on melee right now.
Nerf Sunfire's base, give scaling. Instead of being able to bumrush a 40 magic damage aura, why not make it 20 magic damage +10% of armor+MR? All of the sudden it becomes a little more questionable of a rush buy, but it doesn't NEED to be amazing early game, because it'll be a little better late game. It might only start off with say ~35 magic damage, but later in the game it'll eventually get better. That's a big thing. And this is something I think we can apply to more items as well, I'm not just saying specifically only sunfire here.
Also phage needs the RNG removed, price reduced. Reduce its price by 100 gold, but make it a 1-2-3 effect. No more chain proccing first hit phages for a kill. That's the entire reason it needs to cost so much is it can RNG a kill against a much better player. First hit does nothing, second hit does nothing, third hit slows. Repeat. Nerf the slow amount by 5% to compensate.
But really, in conclusion.
I think I've said it all but I'm just going to reiterate points here. Bruisers are all building the same way because splitting gold just doesn't make sense right now. Health scales resistances. Resistances scale health. Damage does not scale health. I can put 50% of my gold in to damage, 50% in to resistance,s and end up with a 50/50 split. I can put 50% of my gold in to health, 50% in to resistances, and end up with a 60/60 split (or 120/0 in to defenses.) That just doesn't make sense, right? So all bruisers all build full tank, they all end up playing the same, and we all end up bleh because meh they're all the same.
Melee MUST build defensive in order to function, but the degree to which it sucks to not build full defense has really gone way too far right now. You simply can not edge out any damage anymore because all the damage items simply just blow. You're gonna die far too fast to even use that damage, and that's really what is at the heart of this problem. With little encouragement to build damage, with full encouragement to build full defense, and no real REASON to build ANY damage you just forget damage and go straight for defense.
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @HASHINSHIN
At the end of Season 2 teams like M5 stopped building anything offensive on their top lane bruisers. This picked up popularity and by the end of S2 the only offensive items built on tournament top laners was trinity on Jax/Irelia. This build strategy picked up strength when Jax players stopped building gunblade and only built trinity. Then everyone started to build sunfire. Then it was sunfire/warmogs/GA. Then in S3 the GA was dropped and it became sunfire/warmogs/omen. This is NOT a new strategy because of S3 changes as many of you INCORRECTLY ASSUME, but rather a trend based on players reacting to their environments. M5 keeps winning, M5 keeps building straight defensive bruisers. Coincidence? I think not!

-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 12:49:41 PMPeople still don't understand that if HP is the problem Life Steal and Spell Vamp are the best way to counter it. I have a friend that every once in a while he comes up with weird but brilliant builds against the current meta.
When people stopped buying MR and rushed life he started playing Amumu and Stacking 3 to 5 Gunblades. I thought he was trolling, but he NEVER died in the middle of the teamfights and killed everyone. Now the Spell Vamp is unique, I'll give you that. But that's only because Riot noticed that was too strong on AP champions in the new meta because the only thing EVERY AP needed to succeed was to stack Gunblades.
Now you can still stack BTs or combo BT with the new BotRK. Ever wondered why even Cait nowadays is rushing BT? Nobody is building much armor anymore, AS is expensive and Omen/FH takes most of it, everyone has a lot of health and if they have armor there's probably someone on the team Proc'ing BC.
The result is simple: having Life Steal is the best counter to health stacking, because it makes their Health Pool YOUR health pool. It's the strategy of building Damage into Survivability. You last longer while attacking them harder than they attack you.
The reason why Jax/Akali rush Gunblade and then Warmog shows that Gunblade is still a great item, simply because it gives Life Steal and Spell Vamp in a great amount. That basically makes the enemy Warmog YOUR mini warmog, then you proceed to make another one for yourself.
I dare you all players of Jax and Akali! Try this build then: Rush your Gunblade and then build RESISTANCES and not health. This will make enemy damage lower while will make the Health you steal stronger while also countering the ADC's lifesteal.
People didn't notice it yet and Riot is not doing anything because they have to wait the meta settle down and people learn how to counter it: Health draining + Resistances is the best way to counter Health Stacking meta, as it makes their health yours but also multiplies the health you get.
EDIT: Fixed the text, it was supposed to be "Cait rushing BT" not warmog's, sorry.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 9:02:58 PMI think that was part of the reason Riot is turning blade of the ruined king into an ad carry item so that you can build bloodthirster and botrk and have enough lifesteal to wait out and kill these 4k health bruiser monstrosities.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 11:32:52 AMHashinshiiiiiiinnnn..... We are watching yooouuuu.....
Now lets get serious, this is a wonderfull article (even if you still whine, but I whine also for the same reason from carry perspective, so...we agree). I would just disagree on the point that Jax is better if you build sunfire/warmog etc. I (notice - I) still like to build gunblade, triforce and rageblade, for that sweet moment when you 3 shot a guy, and only tanky item I consider is Omen always and SV if I go vs magic team.
Anyway, you are damn right, it definitely is not fun if all you see are enemy bruisers with over 90000000000 HP going towards you, and you know Liandry/BotRK can`t succeed on killing them in time... ROIT PLYS DU SMTNG!
Have I ever told you the definition of insanity? Insanity is... doing the same fucking thing, over and over again and expecting shit to change.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 11:18:10 AMthis is sadly so true. :(
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 11:11:47 AMgood read. I will now take a second look at how Ive been building and consider this all-defense build path.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 10:13:31 AMBruisers used to be different? You must have been sleeping when entire gang used to ran Atmas/Warmogs in S2.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 5:30:55 PMatmas gave u damage, 2% of your max health if i remember correctly. Now it's nerfed. so no more dmg items are worth it. That's the point, it shouldnt have been nerfed. warmogs fine, but not atmas.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 8:31:57 AMWell Riot hates cross scaling because it usually makes hero very strong in offense and defense while building only one stat. Why does Vlad, Olaf, and Shen are commonly called toxic heroes? Also heroes with cross scaling are more prone to snowball (Volibear, or even ever unappreciated Sejuani).
Also why people like to build defense first -> it helps survive ganks, and helps in tower diving. With ward creep on bottom lane it is harder to gank there (also these ganks are more prone to fail, due to carries that more often carry doran's these day (and machete only junglers), and generally higher risk -> 2:1 for usual top, while 3:2 for usual bot).
While nerf to MR/AR can be considered OK (still i think we lack big MR item against heavy AP teams). This change and change to pen made too much. Especially if we see that natural shred numbers of some heroes was untouched. Generally now it is harder to get solid AR/MR itemization, but it is enough to just build HP that works on physical and magical damage. Everyone know that lategame HP is bad, but now this same you can say about MR and AR.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 7:04:27 AMstronger pen vs weaker resistance cause the AR/MR a foolish option. In the pass health sucks late game due to DFG, now the case reverses as it is resistance which sucks(mostly due to item option).
Also, Riot has a special hate on cross scaling of offensive and defensive stats, that is why you see Vlad got nerfed 20 times in a roll, and why atma dies, but this is not the major problem.
The major problem IMO is that Riot hates anything that could be CONDITIONALLY OP. They don't punish it, but simply ban it. Just through this vast options have been thrown.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 6:27:13 AMThis is going to sound rude but reading all these comments complaining about how strong bruisers are, is like reading a scaled up version of a new player complaining about how OP Darius is.
Guys. Bruisers have strengths, but they also have weaknesses. Most of them are easily kited. Most of them actually find it difficult to engage against a team that is co-ordinated. A co-ordinated team won't let their squishy targets get pulled by Darius. A co-ordinated team can bait an Olaf ultimate. In short, skilled play is required, much like laning against a Darius. If you don't play smart, he will wreck you. In the same way, if you can't think of a way to deal with an Olaf when he has his ultimate up, he will wreck you.
It may seem that these characters have an easier time winning games, but you also have to remember what happens when a bruiser falls behind. A late game AD Carry that fell behind will still be a powerhouse. Late game, a bruiser that fell behind will be near useless, unless they have a lot of CC or they scale amazingly (Olaf, Jax).
It's about counter play, and honestly as I said before, this discussion is similar to listening to a bunch of new players complaining about Darius. Stop saying bruisers are OP.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 8:11:17 AMIf I had to choose between an underfarmed ADC and bruiser, I would choose the bruiser every time. Bruisers have great base damage and stats whereas an ADC without a full build is utterly useless.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 6:04:12 AMWhile I appreciate this article about item homogenization, there is one key point in the comparison to AD carries that has been left out, and that is mastery options.
If you go into a game as an AD carry for your team with anything other than 21/(0-9)/(0-9) you will be hindering your team; it is your job to do damage, and you need 21+ points to do so.
Bruisers have options here. They can run 21/9/0, or 9/21/0, or even 0/21/9, and still be effective once they have their Warmog/Sunfire, while their early game changes greatly depending on their mastery choice.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 12:44:01 PM21 Utility is actually perfectly viable on AD carries. Oh sure, you don't get much (any) raw damage out of your masteries. But what do you get instead? More gold from Greed and Pickpocket, gold you can use to... buy more damage. In fact, you'll probably be able to buy more damage than what the Offense tree gives you innately. It also lets you get lifesteal (Vampirism) and movespeed (Nimble) like the good ol' days of S2, two stats which are more valuable than ever since their itemization got nerfed.
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 3:12:27 AMConcidence? Ofc not... But S3 health awesome hp changes didnit helped it at all...
People are crying, that bruisers are OP (even morello said, he is going to nerf bruisers)... i ask what bruisers? Bruisers went extinct... Same as all full tanks/peelers... Bruisers are now goin full tank, depending on base dmg, and tanks doesnt exist anymore.. why? cuz "bruisers" will buy same items, bein 90% tanky a sthem but dealing twice as much dmg (still not that much compared to adc/apc, but their dmg is broken in S3)... when was it last time u saw alistar jungle? heck when was last time u saw alistar at all?
i was looking forward to play in s3 cuz lot of awesome changes, but only thing i can see are pene items and warmoghs... i wont critizise sunfire, cuz i liked that item even in s2, buyin it on tanks, to bit add to their poor dmg making them capable of doin sth else then peel... But with hp changes in s3... its moghs-cape-omen... where is MR? nowhere ofc... why should u buy mr at all? u have shitloads of hp to withstand burst and then only thing u care about is adc... (god bless mundo and heca for really buyin at least that SV cuz of healing bonus... others just say support to buy bulwark)
riot says, they are happy hp is main tank stat... i am not... it's not main tank stat.. it's main stat.. everyone runs hp... in s2 u actually had to think about how to counter sth, and then if u were put against sth not good for your build, u exploded... u had to think about who and how u fight! now? they have dmg? buy hp... they still deal dmg? buy more hp... they started to buy hp to keep up with u? buy even more hp... ressistances? heck that... they'll buy one item and pene it anyways...
i dont have idea how riot wants to change league fo warmoghs to make it fun to play against... i think s2 tank logic and s3 pene logic would work nicely, armor/mr bein primary stats if u want to counter one specific person, and hp bein all around boost to your tankiness, while bein a bit weaker, cuz it counters all dmg... not straight hp and again only hp...
or remove that sick warmogh (u removed FoN... remove this bad joke as well).. people will rpobably finally start to buy FM or FH again... (when u see ap mid buyin warmogh, omg guys u have to realize u fucked this up..)
-
View User Profile
-
Send Message
Posted 2/18/2013 4:11:30 AMI agree most of your points, though removing warmogh will only lead to buying frozen malet or other high hp item. Riot made mistake when they nerfed resistance and buffed penetration. People whine that hp is op because everyone builds it. No it isn't op because every bruiser and tank builds it. They are building it because THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION. If someone whines that HP is op, they are building their champions wrong. Building last whispers and other pene items is useless when people stack hp. In that case you should ignore pene and make full damage (this is I've been carrying few games as ad or ap carry, while laughing same time "what HP?").
Hp just got cheaper and worse over all and now suddenly it's op? And now they made it even worse and more expensive. Seriously do people even read patch notes?