Anyone else notice Bruisers have taken over from ADCs in all looking very same-y?

In Season 2 ADCs had the issue where they were all looking very same-y. They all stood there and auto attack'd, they all used a (typically Q) ability with good base damage but low/no scaling, had an escape, some sort of AoE ultimate, etc. MOST IMPORTANTLY though, they all built the same items, progressed at about the same pace, and did very similar ... everything. Well Season 3 rolled around and Riot changed up ADCs and items drastically to further differentiate early game ADCs from end game (no more hypercarry/early game Ezreal) on top of changing their playstyles drastically. Ezreal builds more kitey, Kog'maw builds more hypercarry, Sivir builds more mid-game-y and etc. This is done through Iceborne Gauntlet, Static Shiv, Phantom Dancer, whether or not you're gonna get IE early, etc. However, bruisers on the other hand are now all building Warmogs/sunfire as their starting items, and all starting to feel very same-y.

 

Bruisers used to be different.

You could tell which bruisers were gonna do what based on their starting item choices. Sunfire? Probably the initiate tank. Trinity? Probably a melee carry. Wit's end? Going up against an AP opponent. Manamune? You're Yorick. Frozen Heart? Lots of base HP and needs CDR. Now what do all bruisers do? Warmogs/sunfire. Jax? Warmogs/sunfire. Olaf? Warmog/sunfire. Cho'gath? Warmogs/sunfire. Three completely different playstyles and roles, all 3 doing the same thing. Going in to the middle of the opposing team and using their girth and sunfire aura to damage enemies with base damage while taking as many hits as they can until they die. (Them or their allies.)

Used to be Jax would be more of a melee carry. Now he's just another sunfire/warmogs doll. That's very telling right there. And I'm going to show you why exactly this happened to so many different champions:

Bruisers tend to scale very poorly, damage wise.

Olaf lost his 30 pen and only gets it on his ultimate now. Jax has a total of 1.0 AD ratio, and slow building attack speed. Irelia has a total 3.4 AD ratio (2.4 on her ult.) Udyr has a good attack speed but only 1.5 AD ratio, and no ult. Volibear has actually 0.0 bonus AD since his Q takes the place of his auto. Get what I'm going at here? Bruisers tend to get very little out of damage items, and since they don't really get to auto attack much (unless they're Olaf and can just say WHAT CC?!) they don't get much out of that either. In fact, mages probably attack more than bruisers.

So wait, how did bruisers get damage! You lie hashinshin, they used to build damage.

They used to build *NON SCALING* damage items. Trinity force, Wit's end, Sunfire, and that stupid lightning item that was removed. Phage was nerfed, heavily, making going Trinity really burdensome now. Wit's end got more expensive for 10 less MR (yeah that was a good idea ROIT.) As always Riot made the stupid mistake of assuming that players would continue to use weak/nerfed ideas simply because they used them before. Wroooong. Jax isn't going to continue to build Trinity if Phage went up 150 gold and got its stats nerfed to boot, his laning phase would be left in shambles. Not to mention Trinity itself became a LOT weaker than before. (It lost 5% crit, 50 mana, 5% slow, and 4% MS)

So people aren't just going to continue to use weak nerfed ideas?

No, they aren't. When Trinity gets slapped around with enough nerfs to choke a horse AND becomes weaker while building it people say "okay eff it, Trinity is off the menu." When MR becomes practically irrelevant AND wit's end loses MR AND it goes up in price people just say "okay eff it, Wit's End is off the menu." When that stupid lightning item gets removed... well yeah people just can't buy it. 

It isn't that bruisers don't want to build damage, it's that all the damage build paths suck. (Kinda.)

Bruisers would loooove to build damage, but all the damage build paths simply just blow. Not to mention that the tanky build paths are just blatantly superior right now. What's more likely to win a game, a Wit's End for 2200 gold that does extremely little to slow down magic damage taken due to the fact that it's easier to penetrate now + void staff is being rushed far more since it adds way more damage than it did pre-patch (due to MATH!) ... or a 2000 gold Locket of the Iron Solari that gives 400 HP, 35 armor, 10 HP10, 10% CDR, and an amazing active to help your team win team fights. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is... just blatantly superior. Like mindbogglingly so. I mean who can compare Wit's End and Solari and say "Yes, these are accurately cost when compared against each other."

But now, it's just obvious that building full tank is the way to go.

With damage so weak, and tankiness so strong, people took all their stock out of building offensive, and put it all in to building defensive. Any particular reasons why anyone can imagine? First off, it was always best to put most of your money in to defensive items. That's called min/maxing right there. 

Min/maxing!

Why go 50/50 when you can just go 100/0 and that 100 scales off itself, so you're really going 110/0 instead of 50/50. Health makes resistances stronger, resistances make health stronger. Anyone ever play Path of Exile? Why would I get armor and evasion, instead of just armor? Well in PoE instead of gear that gives armor/evasion giving 50/50 it actually gives 60/60. Starts to look a little more even now right? Even then with the 60/60 split (AKA 20% free stats) most people STILL prefer to just stack on one stat or the other. (Because MATH, and RNG!) 

But more importantly, min/maxing does an important feature for every game. If I can make my tanks 100% tanky, and my damage 100% damage-y, then aren't I doing my best job? Many games struggle to get over this hurdle.

Hence, full tank for everyone!

A big problem that league has is that building full tank is actually a viable real option. The ability to go sunfire/warmogs/omen/BV is a very real idea out there. It works too. Not many games simply ALLOW you to build 100% tank. In most games you either don't have enough base damage to not build tanky, or you don't have simply the ABILITY to build full tank. (Also in most games not building defense gets you laughed at since it's such a stupid idea, so before you go "herp derp full tank shouldn't be allowed" yeah well neither should full damage you fucking ADCs.)

It simply comes down to the matter of "I'm going to run in to their team, and they're all going to focus me to death... so why WOULDN'T I build full tank?"And since their tank is building full tank YOU need to build full tank to respond. Irelia going sunfire/warmogs? I need to go sunfire/warmogs on Jax or she'll out tank me in team fights and my team will lose. Min/maxing!

But in DotA!

Now this is two fold. THIS IS TWO FOLD. Don't go bitching "oh in DotA you bla bla bla" in DotA tanks got damage for building health. Strength gave them, DIRECTLY, damage and health. Now that's two fold right there. It means in DotA building health gave you damage, BUT there were very few ways to actually build health without getting damage (for tanks.) What's more, not building some sort of defense in DotA was somewhat of a travesty and very few heroes A. Could do it safely, B. Were encouraged to do it. So all you DotA naysayers get out.

The most important thing to remember, mind you:

Melee run in, they get CC'd, they get CC'd, more CC, and die. There tends to be very little option for a melee champion to do anything besides building full tank. That's a big reason why they're all building full tank. All the major tournament teams have realized this. If Olaf can build BC and get some good damage... why would he if he's just gonna die before doing it? If I do 10 damage every 3 seconds, or 5 damage every 3 seconds but live 3 times longer who ends up REALLY doing more damage?

So what is the end result, what does it all mean?

It means everyone is building full tank on melee, because everyone can build full tank on melee, so everyone does build full tank on melee. Because min/maxing deems it the best idea. Because there is no advantage to splitting my gold, but all the advantage to NOT splitting my gold.

What would you do hashinshin?

First, I think Riot really needs to open up more options for building damage. It shouldn't be this 50/50 crap when you build a damage item because all the tanks are going to look at an item like that and go "wait why would I split my resources?" Much like how the supports don't get gold so the ADC gets 100% of them (despite many supports getting very good scaling now) why would I split my gold between tank items and defensive items? As such, damage/tank items like Wit's End needs to be giving more 60/60 rather than 50/50.

YES, that does mean going a damage/tanky path will beat a tanky/tanky path 1v1 every time due to better gold. Hell, it means bruisers will pretty much beat everyone 1v1 who doesn't split their gold. However, isn't that what it should be? If you're min/maxing and going full damage and going full tankiness in preparation for team fights, and I'm splitting my gold and being worse off in team fights for it, then I SHOULD frankly be better in 1v1. Ezreal and his Iceborne Gauntlet tends to be impossible to 1v1, so why shouldn't a bruiser who didn't min/max?

Second, we need more GOOD items for bruisers for damage.  I'm not asking for 2000 gold super ridiculous wit's end back but I do want some similar options. Wit's End is somewhat of a ... thing because magic damage on hit doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy. Wait what's that I just said, it doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy? So make them scale! Trinity gets 150% of attack damage, it doesn't just come out of the gate and say "okay here's 170 damage!" it starts lower. Likewise, we need more items like Lizard Elder that scale with the bruiser a bit, because lizard elder is honestly the only damage item (sparingly if ever) being built on melee right now.

Nerf Sunfire's base, give scaling. Instead of being able to bumrush a 40 magic damage aura, why not make it 20 magic damage +10% of armor+MR? All of the sudden it becomes a little more questionable of a rush buy, but it doesn't NEED to be amazing early game, because it'll be a little better late game. It might only start off with say ~35 magic damage, but later in the game it'll eventually get better. That's a big thing. And this is something I think we can apply to more items as well, I'm not just saying specifically only sunfire here.

Also phage needs the RNG removed, price reduced. Reduce its price by 100 gold, but make it a 1-2-3 effect. No more chain proccing first hit phages for a kill. That's the entire reason it needs to cost so much is it can RNG a kill against a much better player. First hit does nothing, second hit does nothing, third hit slows. Repeat. Nerf the slow amount by 5% to compensate.

 But really, in conclusion.

I think I've said it all but I'm just going to reiterate points here. Bruisers are all building the same way because splitting gold just doesn't make sense right now. Health scales resistances. Resistances scale health. Damage does not scale health. I can put 50% of my gold in to damage, 50% in to resistance,s and end up with a 50/50 split. I can put 50% of my gold in to health, 50% in to resistances, and end up with a 60/60 split (or 120/0 in to defenses.) That just doesn't make sense, right? So all bruisers all build full tank, they all end up playing the same, and we all end up bleh because meh they're all the same.

Melee MUST build defensive in order to function, but the degree to which it sucks to not build full defense has really gone way too far right now. You simply can not edge out any damage anymore because all the damage items simply just blow. You're gonna die far too fast to even use that damage, and that's really what is at the heart of this problem. With little encouragement to build damage, with full encouragement to build full defense, and no real REASON to build ANY damage you just forget damage and go straight for defense.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @HASHINSHIN

At the end of Season 2 teams like M5 stopped building anything offensive on their top lane bruisers. This picked up popularity and by the end of S2 the only offensive items built on tournament top laners was trinity on Jax/Irelia. This build strategy picked up strength when Jax players stopped building gunblade and only built trinity. Then everyone started to build sunfire. Then it was sunfire/warmogs/GA. Then in S3 the GA was dropped and it became sunfire/warmogs/omen. This is NOT a new strategy because of S3 changes as many of you INCORRECTLY ASSUME, but rather a trend based on players reacting to their environments. M5 keeps winning, M5 keeps building straight defensive bruisers. Coincidence? I think not!

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Comments

  • #109 salomdi

    the main reason that you dont see alistar jungle is that they nerfed his ability to clear in the s2 jungle to a point that he was barely picked then. then s3 came around and he simply doesnt have enough damage to clear and is relegated to purely ganking and cant farm in the slightest, when there are other junglers who gank just as well and can farm faster and safer and you see why he has fallen out of favour in the jungle.

  • #60 Blacknsilver

    Bruisers build tanky because their base damage is high and they have 0 scaling. But even if they had decent scaling, CC would still exist. You can't go glass cannon melee in a game in which you can die in a 1sec stun.

    And 100/0 will always scale way better than 50/50 so the question is: full glass cannon or full tank.

    Last edited by Blacknsilver 2/18/2013 2:57:43 AM
  • #58 Checksmixs

    I kind of think you just sound mad, and are ranting, and not making a good point. The meta changed. Remember when ADC were mid and teams were hap hazard? Or when teams ran 4 brusers and an ADC and still won? Meta changes.

  • #54 pumis

    I kind of disagree that going full tank is a good idea now days. Though they did buff resistances again so it might work again. But I mostly like the idea of scaling items. Usually tanks/bruisers that scale with defensive stats tend to be only ones played now days (olaf, shen, malphite). This lefts tanks without any scale behind. Though this would bring bigger balance issues with tanks who already scale with defensive stats.

  • #53 TheFlatline83

    So tl;dr... the most snowbally characters, which by only building tanky do more damage than an AD carry up to late game, need MORE damage?

    Wow yes this makes sense :D Thank god Morello already aknowledge that there's something wrong going on in top lane...

    (sidenote: I'd be happy if this happens AND all of them get "nerfed" to melee carry-level. Then ok. High damage MUST mean squishyness. You can't do repetable 500 true damage with only defense items...)

  • #55 pumis

    excuse me what? Tell me at least one character who does more damage than AD in late game with defensive items. ADC should be greatly behind in order to lose that damage competition and also under farmed.

    "You can't do repetable 500 true damage with only defense items" Only darius and only repeatable if he kill steals. Not everyone plays darius, so there would be no sense to nerf items that buffs more darius. When darius itself is a problem. In other words buff items nerf darius (though darius is easy to win, if people know how to play). 

  • #59 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis »

    excuse me what? Tell me at least one character who does more damage than AD in late game with defensive items. ADC should be greatly behind in order to lose that damage competition and also under farmed.

    "more damage than an AD carry up to late game"

    In other words yes, AD carries do MORE damage than bruisers at LATE game, by in exchange of being squishy and instakilled if caught out of position.

    Bruisers UP TO late game do WAY MORE damage than an AD carry, and are absurdly tanky.

    tl;dr: for 20 minutes AT LEAST a bruiser is an unstoppable force of destruction and towerdiving. The fact that they snowball like hell makes this thing only worse. They are altready OP now (as also stated by Morello). Hashinshin is porposing to make them EVEN MORE OP.
    I propose: "let's give 'em more damage, but for god's sake make them squishy as a Fiora".

    (as a side note: why should I play a Fiora, when an Irelia/Darius/Olaf does everything she does only better, with more tankyness and with CC? Nerf those bloody OPbruiser, and make finally the melee carries more playable!)

    Last edited by TheFlatline83 2/18/2013 2:48:04 AM
  • #61 Blacknsilver

    Quote from pumis »

    excuse me what? Tell me at least one character who does more damage than AD in late game with defensive items. ADC should be greatly behind in order to lose that damage competition and also under farmed.

    "You can't do repetable 500 true damage with only defense items" Only darius and only repeatable if he kill steals. Not everyone plays darius, so there would be no sense to nerf items that buffs more darius. When darius itself is a problem. In other words buff items nerf darius (though darius is easy to win, if people know how to play). 

    I think he was talking about Olaf. Darius does 1000 true damage with only defense items. Olaf is about 350.

  • #62 pumis

    Olaf scales with defensive stats so he is unique in this. Not every bruisers are olaf and darius. Beside Olaf still doesn't do more damage than AD carry. Ad carry does over 350 in almost every hit. Does ad carry win olaf in 1v1? Hell no Bruisers are duelists by their nature.

    Darius 1000 true damage with only defensive items? 680 is his max damage without bonus attack damage. Check your  facts right. 
    Also as mentioned DARIUS DOES THAT only AFTER getting all his stacks, and it's only smart to use on enemies with low hp, AKA kill steal master. So in other words it's same as garen's ult expect spammable unless you can't get the kill. I would debate that Lee sin's Q is much more powerful that dariu's ult.

    You can easilly counter darius' ult.(zonia, guardian angel, someone giving bonus hp or hp shield).

    Even if you could spam it forever that wouldn't make bruiser items op. It would make darius itself op.

  • #69 pumis

    Bruisers have always done better job against ad carries in early and mid game. ADC were always bet on the end game.

    Also yes more damage you do, less survivality you should have. This either means that you are squishy, no defensive stereoids, no escapes, low mobility.

    People did say for many months that bruisers did scale badly in the end game.

    Also bruisers are op? So are you saying that GB is op? Are you saying that Gallio is op? Are you saying that pantheon is op? Are you saying that rengar is op? Are you saying that Renekton is op? Are you saying that Poppy is op? Are you saying that singed is op? Are you saying that TRUNDLE is op?

    Your whole arguments runs around that there are few bruisers who deals tons of damage and build defensive items same time. You are an idiot if you say that bruisers are as whole op when in truth there are only couple bruisers who are "op"(highly disagree on this part too. Since olaf and darius are easilly counterable).

    TL; DR: Nerf darius, olaf, and irelia while buffing bruiser items so that at LEAST OTHER BRUISERS ARE VIABLE.

  • #71 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis »

    TL; DR: Nerf darius, olaf, and irelia while buffing bruiser items so that at LEAST OTHER BRUISERS ARE VIABLE.

    No. Other bruisers are MORE THAN viable. Probably they are even OP. Take Volibear. Gave him a couple of kills in lane. Then he can destroy your whole team.

    (on a side note look at SivHD video about him playing zoomed-in fixed camera volibear. It's hilarious :D)

    Point is: why playing Volibear when you can play easymode Garen/Darius/Olaf/Irelia? This doesn't mean that volibear is underpowered. It means that those guys are MORE OP than volibear

    tl;dr? The bruisers as in "huge resistance and huge damage up to late game when ADC triggers" shouldn't exist.

    If you want damage you HAVE TO be squishy (of course if you are melee you need bigger resistances than a ranged carry). This will also indirectly limit the snowball effect of the top lane: a snowballed Akali is a risky business, but buy a pink ward and focus her and you can MANAGE her. Now try to do the same with a snowballed bruiser. We won a 4vs5 because we made snowball our top garen and he single handedly tanked and destroyed the whole enemy team.

  • #73 pumis

    What you serious? Volibear op? If you lose to volibear, then someone in your team is doing something wrong.
    Bruisers did only got nerfs, and now suddenly they are op. Think about it bit.

    Bruisers won't do huge damage in late game. I have never seen any bruiser expect darius doing huge damage and that is only when he uses his ult. ULT which is about securing a kill, not to do damage.

    As I writed before to someone else I have only recently started playing as carries, and it's easy as hell. I can't see why anyone whines that bruisers are op. Specially when AP YI can wrech whole team.

  • #74 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis»


    Bruisers won't do huge damage in late game. I have never seen any bruiser expect darius doing huge damage and that is only when he uses his ult. ULT which is about securing a kill, not to do damage.

    THANK GOD.
    They destroy you up to (not including) late game, and you want them to still do damage in late??? Late game (if you get there) is for ad carries for a precise reason: so that matches don't last more than 40 minutes. AD carries are the nuclear deterrent of lol. Shitty, relatively boring to play, useless for 20 minutes, squishy, but you have to keep them because if you don't, and for whatever reason you get to late game with a team who has one of them, you will be disintegrated. This is intended by design so that lol doesn't become a 5vs5 derpbruiser HP bags trenching themselves.

    As I writed before to someone else I have only recently started playing as carries, and it's easy as hell. I can't see why anyone whines that bruisers are op. Specially when AP YI can wrech whole team.

    Sorry but if an AP Yi destroys your team that means that YOUR team is doing something wrong. One CC and he DETONATES. Hell he shouldn't even be allowed to get to late game if your midlaner knows what he's doing. God I managed to keep away from farm an AP yi with a Karma mid. A KARMA MID. And I'm a BAD player and never play Karma, I can't even imagine what could I've done to him with a Cassiopea. Come on!

    I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it. It will be hard, but I have a chance if I play smart. I don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard with his head and kills an enemy team 4vs5 under their own turret after getting a couple of lucky kills on the other toplaner, because he has just resistances and still does 340 true damage on a 5s cooldown, or can flip you around while smashing you scaling on his health while tanking a turret for minutes.

  • #75 pumis

    "They destroy you up to (not including) late game, and you want them to still do damage in late???"
    No? I never said I want them to do more damage. I simply stated that bruiser items (which tend to be tanky items) should be buffed from their defensive stats. 

    "This is intended by design so that lol doesn't become a 5vs5 derpbruiser HP bags trenching themselves." And what is your point? I pretty much agree that ad carries should be strongest in end game.

    "Sorry but if an AP Yi destroys your team that means that YOUR team is doing something wrong. One CC and he DETONATES."

    True team is doing something wrong, but in situation where even one guy in your team has low hp, then AP yi will automatically wreck whole team. Why? Because he is untargetable. You can't CC someone whom you can't target. 

    Only way to fix this is to make sure that his ult takes always only half CD from his Q, instead of resetting it on kill.

    Karma also pretty much counters Yi, with her shields and heals.

    "I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it"
    Are you implying that olaf, and darius doesn't have any counter play? There is if you want me to tell you how I can do that.

    " don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard"
    No offence, but I play mostly on jungle or as support. In my experience carrying a game as AP or AD carry is exactly that what you did just describe.

  • #76 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis»


    "I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it"
    Are you implying that olaf, and darius doesn't have any counter play? There is if you want me to tell you how I can do that.

    Kite. Yes. Now try to kite a snowballed Olaf. He will kill you under your turret, or if you go back he will simply DESTROY your turret. Ok, you can go 3vs1. But if a (slightly) fed thing requires three people to do something against, that thing is OP.

    " don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard"
    No offence, but I play mostly on jungle or as support. In my experience carrying a game as AP or AD carry is exactly that what you did just describe.

    Really? At my ridicolous ELO positioning already counts. If ADC/AP positioning doesn't count in your matches I don't really know where are you playing :P

    Now tell me what else you need to do with your darius except right clicking towards the enemy and smashing your keyboard. Ooooh that blitz caught you? Great now you can destroy the enemy team. Ouch you got CCed by a rammus for three seconds and focused? Fantastic, now I'm half HP, let me introduce you to my huge axe :D

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