Anyone else notice Bruisers have taken over from ADCs in all looking very same-y?

In Season 2 ADCs had the issue where they were all looking very same-y. They all stood there and auto attack'd, they all used a (typically Q) ability with good base damage but low/no scaling, had an escape, some sort of AoE ultimate, etc. MOST IMPORTANTLY though, they all built the same items, progressed at about the same pace, and did very similar ... everything. Well Season 3 rolled around and Riot changed up ADCs and items drastically to further differentiate early game ADCs from end game (no more hypercarry/early game Ezreal) on top of changing their playstyles drastically. Ezreal builds more kitey, Kog'maw builds more hypercarry, Sivir builds more mid-game-y and etc. This is done through Iceborne Gauntlet, Static Shiv, Phantom Dancer, whether or not you're gonna get IE early, etc. However, bruisers on the other hand are now all building Warmogs/sunfire as their starting items, and all starting to feel very same-y.

 

Bruisers used to be different.

You could tell which bruisers were gonna do what based on their starting item choices. Sunfire? Probably the initiate tank. Trinity? Probably a melee carry. Wit's end? Going up against an AP opponent. Manamune? You're Yorick. Frozen Heart? Lots of base HP and needs CDR. Now what do all bruisers do? Warmogs/sunfire. Jax? Warmogs/sunfire. Olaf? Warmog/sunfire. Cho'gath? Warmogs/sunfire. Three completely different playstyles and roles, all 3 doing the same thing. Going in to the middle of the opposing team and using their girth and sunfire aura to damage enemies with base damage while taking as many hits as they can until they die. (Them or their allies.)

Used to be Jax would be more of a melee carry. Now he's just another sunfire/warmogs doll. That's very telling right there. And I'm going to show you why exactly this happened to so many different champions:

Bruisers tend to scale very poorly, damage wise.

Olaf lost his 30 pen and only gets it on his ultimate now. Jax has a total of 1.0 AD ratio, and slow building attack speed. Irelia has a total 3.4 AD ratio (2.4 on her ult.) Udyr has a good attack speed but only 1.5 AD ratio, and no ult. Volibear has actually 0.0 bonus AD since his Q takes the place of his auto. Get what I'm going at here? Bruisers tend to get very little out of damage items, and since they don't really get to auto attack much (unless they're Olaf and can just say WHAT CC?!) they don't get much out of that either. In fact, mages probably attack more than bruisers.

So wait, how did bruisers get damage! You lie hashinshin, they used to build damage.

They used to build *NON SCALING* damage items. Trinity force, Wit's end, Sunfire, and that stupid lightning item that was removed. Phage was nerfed, heavily, making going Trinity really burdensome now. Wit's end got more expensive for 10 less MR (yeah that was a good idea ROIT.) As always Riot made the stupid mistake of assuming that players would continue to use weak/nerfed ideas simply because they used them before. Wroooong. Jax isn't going to continue to build Trinity if Phage went up 150 gold and got its stats nerfed to boot, his laning phase would be left in shambles. Not to mention Trinity itself became a LOT weaker than before. (It lost 5% crit, 50 mana, 5% slow, and 4% MS)

So people aren't just going to continue to use weak nerfed ideas?

No, they aren't. When Trinity gets slapped around with enough nerfs to choke a horse AND becomes weaker while building it people say "okay eff it, Trinity is off the menu." When MR becomes practically irrelevant AND wit's end loses MR AND it goes up in price people just say "okay eff it, Wit's End is off the menu." When that stupid lightning item gets removed... well yeah people just can't buy it. 

It isn't that bruisers don't want to build damage, it's that all the damage build paths suck. (Kinda.)

Bruisers would loooove to build damage, but all the damage build paths simply just blow. Not to mention that the tanky build paths are just blatantly superior right now. What's more likely to win a game, a Wit's End for 2200 gold that does extremely little to slow down magic damage taken due to the fact that it's easier to penetrate now + void staff is being rushed far more since it adds way more damage than it did pre-patch (due to MATH!) ... or a 2000 gold Locket of the Iron Solari that gives 400 HP, 35 armor, 10 HP10, 10% CDR, and an amazing active to help your team win team fights. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is... just blatantly superior. Like mindbogglingly so. I mean who can compare Wit's End and Solari and say "Yes, these are accurately cost when compared against each other."

But now, it's just obvious that building full tank is the way to go.

With damage so weak, and tankiness so strong, people took all their stock out of building offensive, and put it all in to building defensive. Any particular reasons why anyone can imagine? First off, it was always best to put most of your money in to defensive items. That's called min/maxing right there. 

Min/maxing!

Why go 50/50 when you can just go 100/0 and that 100 scales off itself, so you're really going 110/0 instead of 50/50. Health makes resistances stronger, resistances make health stronger. Anyone ever play Path of Exile? Why would I get armor and evasion, instead of just armor? Well in PoE instead of gear that gives armor/evasion giving 50/50 it actually gives 60/60. Starts to look a little more even now right? Even then with the 60/60 split (AKA 20% free stats) most people STILL prefer to just stack on one stat or the other. (Because MATH, and RNG!) 

But more importantly, min/maxing does an important feature for every game. If I can make my tanks 100% tanky, and my damage 100% damage-y, then aren't I doing my best job? Many games struggle to get over this hurdle.

Hence, full tank for everyone!

A big problem that league has is that building full tank is actually a viable real option. The ability to go sunfire/warmogs/omen/BV is a very real idea out there. It works too. Not many games simply ALLOW you to build 100% tank. In most games you either don't have enough base damage to not build tanky, or you don't have simply the ABILITY to build full tank. (Also in most games not building defense gets you laughed at since it's such a stupid idea, so before you go "herp derp full tank shouldn't be allowed" yeah well neither should full damage you fucking ADCs.)

It simply comes down to the matter of "I'm going to run in to their team, and they're all going to focus me to death... so why WOULDN'T I build full tank?"And since their tank is building full tank YOU need to build full tank to respond. Irelia going sunfire/warmogs? I need to go sunfire/warmogs on Jax or she'll out tank me in team fights and my team will lose. Min/maxing!

But in DotA!

Now this is two fold. THIS IS TWO FOLD. Don't go bitching "oh in DotA you bla bla bla" in DotA tanks got damage for building health. Strength gave them, DIRECTLY, damage and health. Now that's two fold right there. It means in DotA building health gave you damage, BUT there were very few ways to actually build health without getting damage (for tanks.) What's more, not building some sort of defense in DotA was somewhat of a travesty and very few heroes A. Could do it safely, B. Were encouraged to do it. So all you DotA naysayers get out.

The most important thing to remember, mind you:

Melee run in, they get CC'd, they get CC'd, more CC, and die. There tends to be very little option for a melee champion to do anything besides building full tank. That's a big reason why they're all building full tank. All the major tournament teams have realized this. If Olaf can build BC and get some good damage... why would he if he's just gonna die before doing it? If I do 10 damage every 3 seconds, or 5 damage every 3 seconds but live 3 times longer who ends up REALLY doing more damage?

So what is the end result, what does it all mean?

It means everyone is building full tank on melee, because everyone can build full tank on melee, so everyone does build full tank on melee. Because min/maxing deems it the best idea. Because there is no advantage to splitting my gold, but all the advantage to NOT splitting my gold.

What would you do hashinshin?

First, I think Riot really needs to open up more options for building damage. It shouldn't be this 50/50 crap when you build a damage item because all the tanks are going to look at an item like that and go "wait why would I split my resources?" Much like how the supports don't get gold so the ADC gets 100% of them (despite many supports getting very good scaling now) why would I split my gold between tank items and defensive items? As such, damage/tank items like Wit's End needs to be giving more 60/60 rather than 50/50.

YES, that does mean going a damage/tanky path will beat a tanky/tanky path 1v1 every time due to better gold. Hell, it means bruisers will pretty much beat everyone 1v1 who doesn't split their gold. However, isn't that what it should be? If you're min/maxing and going full damage and going full tankiness in preparation for team fights, and I'm splitting my gold and being worse off in team fights for it, then I SHOULD frankly be better in 1v1. Ezreal and his Iceborne Gauntlet tends to be impossible to 1v1, so why shouldn't a bruiser who didn't min/max?

Second, we need more GOOD items for bruisers for damage.  I'm not asking for 2000 gold super ridiculous wit's end back but I do want some similar options. Wit's End is somewhat of a ... thing because magic damage on hit doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy. Wait what's that I just said, it doesn't scale with anything so it needs to be really good on buy? So make them scale! Trinity gets 150% of attack damage, it doesn't just come out of the gate and say "okay here's 170 damage!" it starts lower. Likewise, we need more items like Lizard Elder that scale with the bruiser a bit, because lizard elder is honestly the only damage item (sparingly if ever) being built on melee right now.

Nerf Sunfire's base, give scaling. Instead of being able to bumrush a 40 magic damage aura, why not make it 20 magic damage +10% of armor+MR? All of the sudden it becomes a little more questionable of a rush buy, but it doesn't NEED to be amazing early game, because it'll be a little better late game. It might only start off with say ~35 magic damage, but later in the game it'll eventually get better. That's a big thing. And this is something I think we can apply to more items as well, I'm not just saying specifically only sunfire here.

Also phage needs the RNG removed, price reduced. Reduce its price by 100 gold, but make it a 1-2-3 effect. No more chain proccing first hit phages for a kill. That's the entire reason it needs to cost so much is it can RNG a kill against a much better player. First hit does nothing, second hit does nothing, third hit slows. Repeat. Nerf the slow amount by 5% to compensate.

 But really, in conclusion.

I think I've said it all but I'm just going to reiterate points here. Bruisers are all building the same way because splitting gold just doesn't make sense right now. Health scales resistances. Resistances scale health. Damage does not scale health. I can put 50% of my gold in to damage, 50% in to resistance,s and end up with a 50/50 split. I can put 50% of my gold in to health, 50% in to resistances, and end up with a 60/60 split (or 120/0 in to defenses.) That just doesn't make sense, right? So all bruisers all build full tank, they all end up playing the same, and we all end up bleh because meh they're all the same.

Melee MUST build defensive in order to function, but the degree to which it sucks to not build full defense has really gone way too far right now. You simply can not edge out any damage anymore because all the damage items simply just blow. You're gonna die far too fast to even use that damage, and that's really what is at the heart of this problem. With little encouragement to build damage, with full encouragement to build full defense, and no real REASON to build ANY damage you just forget damage and go straight for defense.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @HASHINSHIN

At the end of Season 2 teams like M5 stopped building anything offensive on their top lane bruisers. This picked up popularity and by the end of S2 the only offensive items built on tournament top laners was trinity on Jax/Irelia. This build strategy picked up strength when Jax players stopped building gunblade and only built trinity. Then everyone started to build sunfire. Then it was sunfire/warmogs/GA. Then in S3 the GA was dropped and it became sunfire/warmogs/omen. This is NOT a new strategy because of S3 changes as many of you INCORRECTLY ASSUME, but rather a trend based on players reacting to their environments. M5 keeps winning, M5 keeps building straight defensive bruisers. Coincidence? I think not!

135

Comments

  • #71 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis »

    TL; DR: Nerf darius, olaf, and irelia while buffing bruiser items so that at LEAST OTHER BRUISERS ARE VIABLE.

    No. Other bruisers are MORE THAN viable. Probably they are even OP. Take Volibear. Gave him a couple of kills in lane. Then he can destroy your whole team.

    (on a side note look at SivHD video about him playing zoomed-in fixed camera volibear. It's hilarious :D)

    Point is: why playing Volibear when you can play easymode Garen/Darius/Olaf/Irelia? This doesn't mean that volibear is underpowered. It means that those guys are MORE OP than volibear

    tl;dr? The bruisers as in "huge resistance and huge damage up to late game when ADC triggers" shouldn't exist.

    If you want damage you HAVE TO be squishy (of course if you are melee you need bigger resistances than a ranged carry). This will also indirectly limit the snowball effect of the top lane: a snowballed Akali is a risky business, but buy a pink ward and focus her and you can MANAGE her. Now try to do the same with a snowballed bruiser. We won a 4vs5 because we made snowball our top garen and he single handedly tanked and destroyed the whole enemy team.

  • #73 pumis

    What you serious? Volibear op? If you lose to volibear, then someone in your team is doing something wrong.
    Bruisers did only got nerfs, and now suddenly they are op. Think about it bit.

    Bruisers won't do huge damage in late game. I have never seen any bruiser expect darius doing huge damage and that is only when he uses his ult. ULT which is about securing a kill, not to do damage.

    As I writed before to someone else I have only recently started playing as carries, and it's easy as hell. I can't see why anyone whines that bruisers are op. Specially when AP YI can wrech whole team.

  • #74 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis»


    Bruisers won't do huge damage in late game. I have never seen any bruiser expect darius doing huge damage and that is only when he uses his ult. ULT which is about securing a kill, not to do damage.

    THANK GOD.
    They destroy you up to (not including) late game, and you want them to still do damage in late??? Late game (if you get there) is for ad carries for a precise reason: so that matches don't last more than 40 minutes. AD carries are the nuclear deterrent of lol. Shitty, relatively boring to play, useless for 20 minutes, squishy, but you have to keep them because if you don't, and for whatever reason you get to late game with a team who has one of them, you will be disintegrated. This is intended by design so that lol doesn't become a 5vs5 derpbruiser HP bags trenching themselves.

    As I writed before to someone else I have only recently started playing as carries, and it's easy as hell. I can't see why anyone whines that bruisers are op. Specially when AP YI can wrech whole team.

    Sorry but if an AP Yi destroys your team that means that YOUR team is doing something wrong. One CC and he DETONATES. Hell he shouldn't even be allowed to get to late game if your midlaner knows what he's doing. God I managed to keep away from farm an AP yi with a Karma mid. A KARMA MID. And I'm a BAD player and never play Karma, I can't even imagine what could I've done to him with a Cassiopea. Come on!

    I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it. It will be hard, but I have a chance if I play smart. I don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard with his head and kills an enemy team 4vs5 under their own turret after getting a couple of lucky kills on the other toplaner, because he has just resistances and still does 340 true damage on a 5s cooldown, or can flip you around while smashing you scaling on his health while tanking a turret for minutes.

  • #75 pumis

    "They destroy you up to (not including) late game, and you want them to still do damage in late???"
    No? I never said I want them to do more damage. I simply stated that bruiser items (which tend to be tanky items) should be buffed from their defensive stats. 

    "This is intended by design so that lol doesn't become a 5vs5 derpbruiser HP bags trenching themselves." And what is your point? I pretty much agree that ad carries should be strongest in end game.

    "Sorry but if an AP Yi destroys your team that means that YOUR team is doing something wrong. One CC and he DETONATES."

    True team is doing something wrong, but in situation where even one guy in your team has low hp, then AP yi will automatically wreck whole team. Why? Because he is untargetable. You can't CC someone whom you can't target. 

    Only way to fix this is to make sure that his ult takes always only half CD from his Q, instead of resetting it on kill.

    Karma also pretty much counters Yi, with her shields and heals.

    "I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it"
    Are you implying that olaf, and darius doesn't have any counter play? There is if you want me to tell you how I can do that.

    " don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard"
    No offence, but I play mostly on jungle or as support. In my experience carrying a game as AP or AD carry is exactly that what you did just describe.

  • #76 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis»


    "I'm ok with a full damage built carry decimating people, because he is squishy and I can COUNTERPLAY it"
    Are you implying that olaf, and darius doesn't have any counter play? There is if you want me to tell you how I can do that.

    Kite. Yes. Now try to kite a snowballed Olaf. He will kill you under your turret, or if you go back he will simply DESTROY your turret. Ok, you can go 3vs1. But if a (slightly) fed thing requires three people to do something against, that thing is OP.

    " don't agree on a derpbruiser which just smashes the keyboard"
    No offence, but I play mostly on jungle or as support. In my experience carrying a game as AP or AD carry is exactly that what you did just describe.

    Really? At my ridicolous ELO positioning already counts. If ADC/AP positioning doesn't count in your matches I don't really know where are you playing :P

    Now tell me what else you need to do with your darius except right clicking towards the enemy and smashing your keyboard. Ooooh that blitz caught you? Great now you can destroy the enemy team. Ouch you got CCed by a rammus for three seconds and focused? Fantastic, now I'm half HP, let me introduce you to my huge axe :D

  • #78 pumis

    You don't kite olaf before he has wasted his ult when support uses shyrelia so that your team can run away. Also true damage and ignite are good way to shut down olaf who mostly stays alive because his life steal.

    Also you are now talking about snowballed olaf. Please try to stop snowballed anything in this game. Even snowballed kassadin can turret dive you.
    Champion isn't broken if he is good snowballed. Champion is broken if he beats everyone without feed.

    "If ADC/AP positioning doesn't count in your matches I don't really know where are you playing :P"
    ADC/AP aren't only ones who need to think about positioning. Tanks and iniatators need to know when is the right time to initiated and then how they can either kill opponents ADC/AP or protect their own. It's much more complicated than just doing damage and trying to be safe. Being in support role is much harder than you think. It's more about using brains than clicking your right mouse.

    "Now tell me what else you need to do with your darius except right clicking towards the enemy and smashing your keyboard."
    I don't know about you but as far as I know darius actually needs to use all of his skills in order to kill anyone. Saying that skarner needs to smash buttons is actually right. But I don't see much button smashing on darius.
    Why in hell would bliz grab a bruiser or rammus? Beside it's not darius who smashes team then, but a carry from behind who makes most of the damage.



  • #80 azetsubou

    Quote from TheFlatline83 »

    (as a side note: why should I play a Fiora, when an Irelia/Darius/Olaf does everything she does only better, with more tankyness and with CC? Nerf those bloody OPbruiser, and make finally the melee carries more playable!)

    That is no argument, it is a argument against ranged adc

    fiora isn't viable cause of bruisers, she isn't viable cause of the ranged ad

    melee carrys aren't viable, cause being ranged is just too strong

    bruiser is a different role, they don't push away the melee carrys

    ranged carrys are just op cause of their safeness and they will continue to exist and they are the core of every team, bruisers are not always in every team composition. You can also have double ap or ad ranged top and a true tank in jungle. But try a serious team without a ranged ad carry.

    So stop whining about bruiser and think again

  • #84 TheFlatline83

    Quote from azetsubou »

    Quote from TheFlatline83 »

    (as a side note: why should I play a Fiora, when an Irelia/Darius/Olaf does everything she does only better, with more tankyness and with CC? Nerf those bloody OPbruiser, and make finally the melee carries more playable!)

    That is no argument, it is a argument against ranged adc

    fiora isn't viable cause of bruisers, she isn't viable cause of the ranged ad

    melee carrys aren't viable, cause being ranged is just too strong

    bruiser is a different role, they don't push away the melee carrys

    ranged carrys are just op cause of their safeness and they will continue to exist and they are the core of every team, bruisers are not always in every team composition. You can also have double ap or ad ranged top and a true tank in jungle. But try a serious team without a ranged ad carry.

    So stop whining about bruiser and think again

    Ok so let's go in this hypothetical world where no ranged ADCs exist.

    Now look at melee carries.

    Now look at bruisers.

    Now laugh at how a melee carry will instadie to any bruiser and won't be able to farm at all.

    Now play this really fun 5vs5 bruiser match.

  • #85 pumis

    Wasn't my argument but I still jump in.

    Ok so let's go in this hypothetical world where no melee bruisers exists.

    Now look at melee carries

    Now look at Range carries.

    Now laugh at how melee carry will instadie to any AD range and won't be able to farm at all.

    Now play this really fun 5v5 range carry match.

    Your argument can be twisted to this form too, and it will hold exactly the same amount of weight.

  • #87 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis »

    Wasn't my argument but I still jump in.

    Ok so let's go in this hypothetical world where no melee bruisers exists.

    Now look at melee carries

    Now look at Range carries.

    Now laugh at how melee carry will instadie to any AD range and won't be able to farm at all.

    Now play this really fun 5v5 range carry match.

    Your argument can be twisted to this form too, and it will hold exactly the same amount of weight.

    Not really. As I said melee carries should (and have) better defenses than ranged carries. Well besides Fiora. Look Yi can't be kited. Look Trynda can't die for 5 (or was it 6?) seconds. Even Fiora has a gapcloser. They are playable against ranged but sure, they need extra tweaks.

    Look, I'm not trying to "defend" ranged carries: I play them but I DON'T like them. The point is that I'm fed with those overpoweredness in the top lane. HP, tons of damage, gapclosers, stun. WTF?

    Imagine this hypothetical world without bruiser again. What I see? Tanky initiators with no damage but stun/taunts/roots/whatever, beefy guys which does SOME damage but has some cc to protect the carries and deal with other carries (deal not as in "I am Darius harbringer of smashing my head on the keyboard and destroying you in 1 second flat"), melee carries which are less squishy, have some form of gap closer/death immunity/whatever, do more damage with respect to their ranged counterparts, ranged carries which play safer but are squishy, assassins with jumps trying to kill the carries, burst mage which become viable again...

    Right now I only see "bleargh I'm the herpaderp bruiser, me runs toward carry ignoring everyone and I gib him" for the first part of the match, and for the last 5 minutes "lol I'm the ranged carry which farmed the most/whose enemy bruiser were not smart enough in the first part of the match, and now you die in 3 shots".

    Honestly I prefer the first part with squishy damage dealers and tanky with taunts, with something inbetween "jack of all trades master of none", to this "we the bruiser do what we want for 20 minutes and pray that our carries are the best ones for the last part of the match, or that we manage to snowball and destroy the enemy team"

    Last edited by TheFlatline83: 2/18/2013 8:17:37 AM
  • #90 Clashje

    Quote from pumis »

    Wasn't my argument but I still jump in.

    Ok so let's go in this hypothetical world where no melee bruisers exists.

    Now look at melee carries

    Now look at Range carries.

    Now laugh at how melee carry will instadie to any AD range and won't be able to farm at all.

    Now play this really fun 5v5 range carry match.

    Your argument can be twisted to this form too, and it will hold exactly the same amount of weight.

    Okay this was not a smart move, Melee AD Carries eat Ranged AD Carries for breakfast, because they got insane steroids and a way to gap close and usually even invincibility for a short time. A good support might be able to hold a Melee Carry of for a few seconds, but try fighting two. And once melee carries start rolling its gonna be hard to stop them.

    Also Thornmail Yi GG.

    Last edited by Clashje: 2/18/2013 8:48:35 AM
  • #91 pumis

    "As I said melee carries should (and have) better defenses than ranged carries. Well besides Fiora. Look Yi can't be kited. Look Trynda can't die for 5 (or was it 6?) seconds. Even Fiora has a gapcloser"

    All of those as melee carries can be counterd by using cc.  Reason why tryndamere won't win games expect in normal and low elo games. Because people know how to cc in bigger skill level.
    None of those gain any defensive boosts expect Yi while healing (makes him more tank while doing it than carry).

    Now you won't get the point. Bruisers were suppose to counter carries at start. For example trundle and lee sin. Both have skills which are carries nightmare. You can either be assasin which only purpose is to kill ad carry (and then cry because carry has guardian angel and you are dead). Or be a big guy who takes some damage but is threat enough for a carry. Please note, big guys are suppose to be only threat to you, not to whole team. What darius has is kind of tanking. He makes sure that people focus him by being scary, instead of using taunt or other cc.

    I'm pretty much jack of all trades, since I can do any role. This is why I last pick always. To be honest I have no idea where you even get this "bruisers are op" Of course as ad carry you feel like that when a DUELIST comes at you and you can't beat him alone. But this game isn't about 1v1. Only reason you most likely whine about this is because you get pubstomped by pubstomp champion. Mordekaiser and tryndamere, lee sin all of these use to be this kind of champions. Hell I don't even remember them nerfing morde, people just learned how to play against him.

    Ever play as vayne? I think she can wreck olaf prety bad. 

    Bruisers aren't jack of all trades and master of none. Their trade is to be mid game "carry/initiator". There is a reason why we see top bruiser instead of bottom and top bruisers. Because whole team going bruisers simply won't work.


  • #92 pumis

    Only if we live in world where only melee ad and range ad exists. Beside good support can hold even 5 of these.  Have you ever even watched support and tank skills? Many of them have cc against whole team.

    Also you only change the view point of my point. I could now say "Now play this really fun 5v5 melee carry match".

    I was simply trying to point out how stupid argument this guy made, by switching few words.

    Also life steal and magic resistance against thornmail GG

  • #94 NoodleDoodles

    Just interested here - Name all bruisers who (without snowballing) are what you consider "OP". Also, why OP then?

  • #95 TheFlatline83

    Quote from pumis»

    "As I said melee carries should (and have) better defenses than ranged carries. Well besides Fiora. Look Yi can't be kited. Look Trynda can't die for 5 (or was it 6?) seconds. Even Fiora has a gapcloser"

    All of those as melee carries can be counterd by using cc.  Reason why tryndamere won't win games expect in normal and low elo games. Because people know how to cc in bigger skill level.

    I added "They are playable against ranged but sure, they need extra tweaks." which you omitted to bring forward your point. This is school of straw man argument.
    (expecially because I was the first one saying that melee carry are not viable, not due to ranged carries, which they can easily eat unless they are 2vs1 of course an rightfully so, but due to bruisers which do more damage for 3/4 of the game, are safer, tanky, have cc, gapclosers, etc).

    Please again, don't use straw man arguments against an italian. Our politicians are master of those and we are quite used to them :D

    Now you won't get the point. Bruisers were suppose to counter carries at start.

     

    No assassins were made to counter carries. Then people (perhaps rightfully, perhaps not) complained about being instagibbed so bruisers were "improved". Is a bruiser better than an assassin? I don't think so. I can COUNTERPLAY (with build) an assassin (Guardian Angel, HP to survive the burst, etc). I can't counterplay a fed (by another lane perhaps) bruiser which just ignores the team and instakill the squishies. And note, not an OVERFED bruiser. A bruiser with a couple of extra kills.

    Or be a big guy who takes some damage but is threat enough for a carry. Please note, big guys are suppose to be only threat to you, not to whole team. What darius has is kind of tanking. He makes sure that people focus him by being scary, instead of using taunt or other cc.

    That's the problem. KIND OF tanking. ENOUGH damage to be a threat to a carry. Not a Garen tanking a whole team. Not a Darius instagibbing people. In other words, you are either full damage squishy (=carry), full tank no damage (=rammus-like guy), or 50-50. Tell me again how a 4 sec CD 300-and-counting true damage without any damage item is SOME damage. How a resettable 500 true damage is SOME damage. How a 6 seconds 35+1% max health extra AD is SOME damage and 21% extra lifesteal is SOME tanking (expecially with that passive). How a 6 seconds 30% damage reduction with a passive, always on, 20% extra Armor and MR is SOME tanking, together with a 525+40% max health execution, manaless, ultimate with 80s CD...

     

    To be honest I have no idea where you even get this "bruisers are op" Of course as ad carry you feel like that when a DUELIST comes at you and you can't beat him alone. But this game isn't about 1v1. Only reason you most likely whine about this is because you get pubstomped by pubstomp champion. Mordekaiser and tryndamere, lee sin all of these use to be this kind of champions.

    You are very good in rhetorics, aren't you? This is the classical "ad personam" trying to discredit a theory by attacking the guy behind it. Again don't try those, we italians are experts on that :P
    Anyway no. I have no problem with dealing with them. And of course not all match ups are favorable. A squishy vs an assassin will implode. An assassin vs a mage with good CC will implode. Now who destroys bruisers? OTHER BRUISERS. Think about that.
    Also we are talking about bruisers. Trynda isn't a bruiser. Morde I don't even know what is he (he has to build for damage. Yes it's naturally tanky, but has no free damage). Lee Sin is hard to classify, he can build as a bruiser, but if so he becomes a peeler and doesn't instagib people.

     

    Ever play as vayne? I think she can wreck olaf prety bad. 

    Not alone. And even so if she GREATLY outplays olaf. So you are telling me that a better player can beat a bad one with any champion? Probably yes, I agree. But this doesn't say anything about balance.

    Bruisers aren't jack of all trades and master of none. Their trade is to be mid game "carry/initiator".

    And don't you think that the ability to wreck faces, together with being almost unkillable (cause carry are non-existant up to endgame), having CC and towerdiving capability, and being absurdly snowbally (as in "I am 5-0 top so the game is closed if I am even a bit competent) makes this category overpowered?

    There is a reason why we see top bruiser instead of bottom and top bruisers. Because whole team going bruisers simply won't work.

    Well actually S2 finals told a different story. The current "everyone builds tanky" story also, at least partially (you can't play squishy!). Morello intervention as well. And actually "whole team bruisers" don't work because it is a bet: you are basically saying "those guys won't get to endgame". Is it doable, it is done, but it doesn't work always, expecially at high ELO/leagues were people make few if none mistakes and no one gets ahead in kills. You need the "40 minutes time limit enforcer" as a Mutual Assured Destruction object.

  • #98 BarkBark_I_Shark

    Galio is a tank, panth more of an assassin, Rengar got nerfed to hell, renekton is op as balls but i love it, poppy is an assassin not a bruiser, singed is a tank, and trundle is op in the right hands and i love it. but yes, bruisers due to the current meta are the strongest. evidence: more bruisers going mid instead of ap! also, adc >bruiser late game is a great argument but why worry about it if u can win the game long before they carry gets anywhere near there? its not hard anymore....

    Last edited by BarkBark_I_Shark: 2/18/2013 10:38:42 AM
  • #103 pumis

    "A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,<sup id="cite_ref-Lindley2006_1-0">[1]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-Sparkes1991_2-0">[2]</sup> is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position"
    I don't believe that I did attack your positition. Unlike you have done that few times already. Let me quote you again. "THANK GOD.
    They destroy you up to (not including) late game, and you want them to still do damage in late???"

    That is a good example of strawman argument. You make a claim that I think that bruisers should have more damage, when my stand is that I want that they have more resistance. So please stop being hypocrite.
    I use to be in debate club in school so i know well what is a strawman. Your roots doesn't make what you are.
    I only made your point to show how weak your whole base theorie was, not to try to say that we should remove bruisers from the lists and that's what happens.

    " I can COUNTERPLAY (with build) an assassin (Guardian Angel, HP to survive the burst, etc)."
    Counter play which makes assassins pretty much useless. I think I did already point this out before you even mentioned this counter play. It SEEMS more like that you want to be über carry which never dies and has answers for everything.
    Rock, paper, scizors is the deal of the game. To be more accurate I would say that lee sin, olaf and darius are actually assassins by their nature. Their whole kit is perfect for slaughtering one guy and dying after it(specially darius, if he attacks on wrong time he has no chance for escape).
    Assassins are more poison for the counter play than most of the bruisers are. Not to mention that AD assassins didn't exists before season 3 (well not as very viable option).

    Technically there are no classes neither. It's simply style of play.
    But as I mentioned that if darius happens to be broken, doesn't make other bruisers broken. 

    Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe bruisers should just lose to carry 1v1 like you want. But then it makes me think again that maybe bruisers should counter assassins? Since you obviously can't do that as a carry. Without items.

    "I can't counterplay a fed (by another lane perhaps) bruiser which just ignores the team and instakill the squishies"
    Maybe you're not suppose to counter play? Maybe your team mates are suppose to counter play that? Like your team's bruiser can go after him, your team mates can slow while you shoot him down before he reaches you? While you use you in game escape to get out of his range while your team mates instagib him (yes it's very possibly with focus) Since this is a team game after all. Plus I haven't see any UNFED bruiser instakilling squishies.

    "full tank no damage (=rammus-like guy)"
    Yea I would agree with this point but there is a one problem. Since many of you guys started to whine about tank items, it lead to that fact that full tanks are too weak nowdays. Resistance is more expensive and gives less stats, not to mention that penetration is more easily accessible and math works better on it now. Only option is to be a tank who does damage. 
    This is why I'm saying that TANKY ITEMS SHOULD BE BUFFED FROM RESISTANCE. Instead from a damage.

    " Tell me again how a 4 sec CD 300-and-counting true damage without any damage item is SOME damage."
    Well in meta where everyone stacks health, true damage isn't a big deal anymore. That true damage would've been something when resistances were still big thing. THIS IS WHY it's SOME damage. Ragnarog (olaf's ult) does last for 6 seconds. While he is alive he can do you mostly 600 damage, unless your team goes full retard (including you). Best way to counter play true damage is simply to build HP (ironic, isn't?)
    Rest for your olaf arguments goes to his cooldowns, and that his threat moment only lasts for 6 seconds. Which is easily counter playable.

    "How a resettable 500 true damage is SOME damage." 
    This is what I would call some sort of fallacy. You don't add the fact that it only resets when you kill with it. It's nothing more than kill secure move. Specially in meta where everyone spams HP.

    "You are very good in rhetorics, aren't you? This is the classical "ad personam" trying to discredit a theory by attacking the guy behind it. Again don't try those, we italians are experts on that :P"
    Of course, I'm politician. But that wasn't ad personam attack. Let me prove it to you.
    At first took me while to notice what part you did mean but yeah here. 
    "But this game isn't about 1v1. Only reason you most likely whine about this is because you get pubstomped by pubstomp champion."
    I think I did pretty clearly say that MOST LIKELY. It's a fact that darius is a pubstomp champion. Reason why I said it was simply because I was trying to find reason why you see darius and others as OP. My bad for thinking too much ahead. Kind of like talking to myself in text form. Weird now that I think of it.

    "An assassin vs a mage with good CC will implode."
    Excuse me what? I don't know about you but mage's in my experience are the worst nightmare of an bruiser. There are lot of mages with CC and %HP damage out there. Not to mention DFG and the liandras torment melts bruisers away. Bruisers mostly win mages when they are off guard. Yes there are bruisers who can win mages, but those bruisers lack in somewhere else.
    Like I said earlier class system isn't perfect in this game, even AP casters have different styles and weaknesses. 

    "Trynda isn't a bruiser. Morde I don't even know what is he (he has to build for damage. Yes it's naturally tanky, but has no free damage)"
    I wasn't trying to say that they were bruisers. Though morde is. Did you know that Morde's Q does more damage than Kha'ziz's Q? Funny irrelevant fact for you.

    " Lee Sin is hard to classify, he can build as a bruiser, but if so he becomes a peeler and doesn't instagib people."
    Lee sin use to instagib people until he got nerfed. And he can still do great amount of damage if build as assassin. I still say that his Q is much better than Dariu's ult. Since his Q is mini garen's ult and has more utility than just damage.

    "Not alone. And even so if she GREATLY outplays olaf. So you are telling me that a better player can beat a bad one with any champion? Probably yes, I agree. But this doesn't say anything about balance."
    No I'm not saying that better can beat bad with any champion. But in theoretical fight Vayne can beat olaf. 6 seconds is a very fast time, and 6 seconds is the only time when olaf is a threat (damage buff, tankiness, CC immunity). In otherwords Only thing vayne needs to do is to stay away from olaf until olaf uses ult. When olaf comes close. Vayne uses ult, and dodges away. Move far enough from olaf so that he can't reach you before his ult is gone. Then use your push/stun on olaf and GG. This match is on vayne's favor mostly because she also does true damage, but her damage SCALES with Olaf's hp. She actually does much better true damage than olaf. Let me prove it to you. 
    Let's assume that our OP HP tank olaf has 4000 hp (not uncommon with full hp build).
    And both are level 18. 
    4000/100= 40
    40x8hp% = 320
    320+60 (flat true damage) = 380 True damage. Every 3rd hit. I see vayne as best carry in whole game at this moment and in this meta. Not to mention that she counters darius pretty well with her push and invisibility dodge.
    http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Vayne source for math.

    "And don't you think that the ability to wreck faces, together with being almost unkillable (cause carry are non-existant up to endgame)"
    This only happens if they are fed, and ad carry hasn't got feed neither. I would agree with you that unfed ad carry doesn't do much in 20 min, but in 25-30 he starts do hit people hard. This also depends on AD  carry. This is also why people give kills to AD carries so that they can stop fed people from roaming (which is why in public games without full premade things can go awkwardly wrong). 

    I say that any champion who get's fed is suppose to be like that (and most are, if not then those champions are UP)

    "Well actually S2 finals told a different story. The current "everyone builds tanky" story also, at least partially (you can't play squishy!). Morello intervention as well. And actually "whole team bruisers" don't work because it is a bet: you are basically saying "those guys won't get to endgame". Is it doable, it is done, but it doesn't work always, expecially at high ELO/leagues were people make few if none mistakes and no one gets ahead in kills. You need the "40 minutes time limit enforcer" as a Mutual Assured Destruction object."
    You kind of proved my point in this one. Going for early game victory rarely pays in pro games. We should also remember that League of legends is E-sport game. Balance comes first for tournament and high elo play, before low elo.






  • #105 pumis

    I haven't seen gallio tank for a year (literally). Though I have seen AP gallio. Panth can be build as a bruiser. In season 2 Pantheon was mostly a bruiser if someone played. 
    Rengar got nerfed true, but he is still a bruiser. Singed is also build in bruiser way. People build him AP items anyway this is why he is  called as AP BRUISER. Trundle op? Nah I used to main trundle, he is good but not op. Unfortunately he needs right enemy setup to work well. Poppy is an assassin? Strange, since I haven't seen any poppy player building full damage...

    Bruisers in mid? Wtf, Is talon, pantheon, Kha'ziz a bruisers to you? AD casters and assassins goes mid now days, simply because they counter most of them. Learn meta.
    "but why worry about it if u can win the game long before they carry gets anywhere near there?"
    With this logic 6 pool zerg rush is OP in starcraft 2.

  • #126 ulhax84
    Quote from Blacknsilver

    Quote from pumis ยป

    excuse me what? Tell me at least one character who does more damage than AD in late game with defensive items. ADC should be greatly behind in order to lose that damage competition and also under farmed.

    "You can't do repetable 500 true damage with only defense items" Only darius and only repeatable if he kill steals. Not everyone plays darius, so there would be no sense to nerf items that buffs more darius. When darius itself is a problem. In other words buff items nerf darius (though darius is easy to win, if people know how to play). 

    I think he was talking about Olaf. Darius does 1000 true damage with only defense items. Olaf is about 350.



    No he doesn't.
  • #108 jim1608

    Darius can

  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes