Season 3 Jungle - Day 1 Summary

Alright so the first batch of the season 3 videos has gone up and it's time to give my initial thoughts. There won't be a tier list this time around because frankly nothing much has changed. Zed sucks as a jungler (can't gank) so just assume he's like tier 3 or something. Anyways the season 3 jungle is neither good nor bad. The season 3 jungle is just different. I overreacted a bit on the Lee Sin video but it is because I had such high hopes placed on him to dominate the new jungle that once I started noticing how painful it was for him...well my optimism took a nose-dive. Then I played Diana and Darius and my faith in the new jungle was renewed. I decided from then on to be neutral on it. I need to, as well as everyone else, accept that the new jungle is going to be different and thus new junglers will excel.

Turns out though that most junglers clear fine albeit they're forced to take the machete every single time. I'm sure there will be some junglers that can probably take something else. Leashing has been removed and it's more just the jungler tanking the monsters while his allies attack it. It's not really a big deal considering everyone has 2 more potions to play with and you don't have to worry about someone messing up the leash. That said the removal of leashing was a very important thing. It made it so a jungler could no longer receive a leash so strong that they could hold onto smite and take out the other camp then go gank someone at level 3, double buffed and before their target has even passed level 2.

A few people said I was complaining too much about being forced to start machete or that you require a leash now. What I can tell you is that these people misunderstood what I said and (some of) the most vocal ones are idiots.

Machete - It is basically (at this point) forced onto every jungler of the game. If you want to jungle you pretty much have to take it. The time difference between taking it and not taking it is rather staggering. Without a machete - most junglers add upwards to 30 seconds to their clear times and definitely suffer in the sustain category as well. I have mixed feelings about being forced to start with it. On one hand it's really sad that we won't be having some of those creative starts that gave some junglers an advantage over others. In Season 1 if you could take boots (while most could only take cloth) you had a massive advantage. If you could survive with just a scepter you had a better gold advantage as well. It's minor sure but it made it so scouting your opponent was important. But on the other hand - the machete becomes the spirit stone which in turn becomes 3 incredibly unique items. We're trading the early game versatility for the later game.

Some people were stupid enough to say that you were FORCED to take boots in the season 2 jungle. There is a difference between being forced and it being the best choice. Even in tournaments you may have seen players take cloth armor (mostly on Mundo) or regrowth pendant. Those times weren't the most common but they happened. Boots just ended up being the best option but that's what it was - just an option albeit the best.

Leashing - Yes I did complain about leashing but people didn't bother to understand why. In the season 1 jungle, leashing came very late into the game. We had gotten used to junglers having to suffer the jungle by themselves and you had to be tanky OR you had to be creative. There were elaborate pathing routes for a multitude of things. You could even take paths where you didn't take all your buffs till level 3-4. This is how some junglers overcame the fact that buff starts weren't all too great for everyone or the longer spawn times. Leashing sort of broke some junglers when it came out. Then in season 2 - non buff starts were straight out stupid. You were now forced to accept the leash because it was the best thing that you could have. However it didn't it was a death sentence if you didn't get one. If you got invaded or your teammates only had time for a feather leash you'd still be fine.

If you're forced to get a leash while the small camps aren't nearly as valuable as the buffs (and non buff paths aren't viable) then it gives too much power to control junglers and early invades. Imagine being invaded and forced out of your blue. You have now lost your blue. What are you going to do now? Farm the small camps? Yeah that's going to be hell. Can you take your red buff by yourself? Maybe but even if you do you're going to get your ass kicked so hard. If you avoid your buff because you can't handle it alone then that's just asking for a control jungler to come in and harass you to kingdom come. If your teammates give you the strong leash you need then they likely are going to suffer as well or some teammates will just tell you to go screw yourself.

So in short - it's about me being fearful of giving so much importance to getting that good start and that if you get screwed over there is no way to actually recover. The small camps are nowhere near in value to the big camps yet some junglers just get stomped by the big camps.

Lee Sin

Somehow he didn't come out feeling so good. I don't want to give up on him yet though. I feel something may have gone wrong or I have to give credit to the suggestion of using Q first seeing as the assistant mobs to the main monsters of each camp are wimps. As far as these first two tests go - Lee Sin did not perform so well. Unlike those hasty idiots who say he is trash tier because of this - he is merely just not feeling godly.

Warwick and Fiddlesticks

What can I say? They feel amazing again. Fiddlesticks got significantly faster and his sustain is utterly awesome. Even if he doesn't get his blue I'm betting he could just buy some mana pots to begin the game with seeing as he doesn't need any health potions. Hell one could even take the machete and that one bottle item for some nifty starts. Fiddlesticks is definitely looking better than before.

Warwick is feeling some sustain love. He's one of the junglers that basically makes incredible use of the machete. He's slightly faster than before. I feel we have to wait and see if the new jungle lets him just transition smoothly to level 6 when he starts becoming a bigger threat.

Nautilus

He's going to need a leash. Without a leash he is going to be murdered by puny ghosts or some jungler deciding he doesn't like his face. That said once he reaches level 3 he starts destroying the camps. I think the machete-spirit stone item just took his clearing speeds to a new level. Sure his first clear is still mediocre but he's going to become a lawnmower.

Maokai

He's the same damn thing. I mean we'll have to see what happens to early ganking and that may affect his allure but I'm certain he'll be fine. He's one of the best in season 3 from what I've seen so far. Nothing more to say than that actually.

Diana

My she is lovely in the new jungle. She didn't get faster but the machete item and evolutions is awesome on her. She's a fast jungler and she's going to strongly benefit from the increased gold from the jungle. She revs up and starts annihilating camps and will likely be one of the junglers who can keep up with the lanes and perhaps even surpass them. She is contending with Elise for the best AP jungler spot.

Trundle

I can't give any comment on him till I see him in a real game. Trundle isn't a bad jungler and likely never will be. He's basically the same thing here as he is in season 2. It just depends on what the enemy decides to do. He excels vs teams with few tanks so even if he junglers better it largely will depend on the team comp of the enemy team.

Dr. Mundo and Shyvana

They're, once again, the fastest junglers in the game. Their sustain is just as bad as it is in season 2 with cloth armor but of course you'll be helping them out a bit with a good leash. That said I think these two might get nerfed at some point. They're fast, they farm well and the jungle gives more gold. I'm pretty sure no one wants to see a super farmed Mundo or Shyvana running out of the jungle with their super self-sufficient kits.

Sejuani and Hecarim

They're basically the same thing as Nautilus albeit better all around at clearing (early). Sejuani is one of the best junglers in the game with farm. Yes I am bold enough to make that statement. Her problem has always been that she needs too many different stats to work out. However a crap load of items have been released that give her what she wants - cooldown reduction, health, magic pen, resistances. I feel she'll see some love this season. Then Hecarim is just weird. I'm wondering if he'd be fine farming items and then entering a fight or if he needs to gain a desperate advantage and thus still has to relegate more time to ganking than farming.

Darius and Jarvan

Jarvan is exactly the same thing as he was before for his first clear HOWEVER my flag did get destroyed thus I'd assume he's slightly better. That said he's one of the junglers with the most dependency for gold and items. I'm looking forward to seeing how this increase in gold affects him. If he's able to build up an armory before team fights happen then his attractiveness as a pick is definitely going to soar. As for Darius -I was actually worried about him not being able to jungle as well as before. I mean the guy lacks sustain and Lee Sin didn't do so well. Darius deals a lot of damage and that machete just makes him MELT the camps. He's EXACTLY the same speed as season 2 but with the increased gold gain this means a lot for him. He's very fast and can now supplement his murder power with proper farm.

Kha`Zix and Fiora

Fiora is still slow. Her usefulness will be determined by the flow of the lanes. Now Kha`Zix actually got better. He definitely got faster and his W turned out to flourish with the machete. Just like Hecarim it is up in the air whether or not he'll be good. Does he need to have a significant advantage (one that just farming can't get by itself) or can he just stay in the jungle forever?

Annie and Brand

Admittedly these two were a bit of a joke. The AP junglers that could probably destroy the season 3 jungle that aren't Diana or Elise are Cassiopeia and Karthus. Still I wanted to try these two because if these two could jungle then they'd be awesome. Sadly they floundered. I'll be mingling with Malzahar, Cassiopeia and Karthus.

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Comments

  • #18 KesslerCOIL

    Can you please try Twitch?
    He was kinda crap in the old jungle but im curious as to how well he does with machete and the increased farm.

  • #51 monkyyy

    personally im finding the new mastery's(going deep into utility) and new wraith placement make any ranged champ able to clear with somewhat good time (ashe starting with e died, but other then that i didnt find anyone else) by smiting big wolf right at 1:40 then abusing the big wraith placement by autoing it behind the wall(stand in the thin part of the wall using the free ward) then killing blue/red with lvl 2 and having both hp pots and the hp/mana roll going

    Last edited by monkyyy 11/18/2012 3:22:44 PM
  • #17 Baebunni

    Question about Zed though did you actually try him or watch? Because watching bad players play new champs isn't that great though I admit his ganking potential is his lowest point.

  • #31 keybler86

    Bad players or not, he doesn't have a ganking kit, other than landing Shurikens I guess. I don't see him having great clear times, along with a mediocre Level 1 clear, even with a leash.

    He belongs in a museum lane.

  • #14 ghetifal

    OK, so I just watched the Lee Sin videos. I understand your argument that boots weren't required before, they were just the best option. I have to point out that you DID successfully clear the jungle with cloth armor. The machete wasn't required, it was just the best option.

    Also, I don't understand the frustration with needing a leash. That is part of the game and I can't remember the last normal blind pick game even where my team didn't leash. It IS a team game after all. In what situations would you NOT want your team leashing? Usually they don't miss CS, and at most they miss one from just bad luck with how the minion waves clashed. PLUS, they are there to help you in case you get invaded. Right now, standard is for mid and whichever lane is closest help you take down wraiths/wolves, and they are always dead before the big buff spawns. Before, mid would leash and go straight to lane. Now they will really just be there to throw some damage on, and it may not be worth it since it won't actually follow them. But any spell+AA helps if the jungle is really such a pain right now. The thing is, most lanes in normals even were willing to give smiteless first buffs. I think they will be willing to stick around to get you that buff, even if you still use smite.

    Still, great stuff as always Stonewall008. I'm not saying you're wrong like some of these idiots, I'm just pointing some counter arguments out. You maybe have had worse luck with getting people to leash, likely because you play jungle more than me so I haven't seen the full extent of selfishness of some laners :P

  • #24 K0stra

    In S2 it was OK if your AP threw a nuke over the wall and ran into lane, you still got several last hits and it was enought for more junglers to finish clear or gank anyways thanks to weak nature of jungle creeps. Now you need your lane to acually stay with you and optimally destroy it for you imho goodleashes can be better bad can be really destructive. It is one more thing you have to worry about sides from invasions and states of your lanes.

  • #25 D_Neon

    That's your AP though, who's minions arrive fastest, they'll still throw a nuke in and leave, what will become more common will be top/bottom lane sticking around to help tank because they have more time before creeps get to lane.

  • #40 Waaargh

    When starting red I would have the best start if the team could help me get it to 25%. I made a hard pull and tanked, and they just aa they crap out of it. If 1 helps it takes a while, if 2 or 3 helps it goes very fast. In turn this mean I move forward sooner, and they get to lane sooner. That's a win-win situation to me.

    Only problem is people are not schooled to do that, so if not on Skype or TS it's hard to communicate for them to turn back if they run to lane too soon (ie. after the leash).

  • #13 PMilkos

    Are you gonna be testing Elise?

    With the new leashing mechanics her spiderlings should be able to tank for her, and Machete + her W should melt camps like noone's business.

  • #12 J5DubV

    I don't see why you max q over w for hecarim. It deals full damage to minions and increases your sustain... also with the cooldowns you are much less likely to run out of mana like you did in the video while dealling nearly the same damage.  Especially, in cases where you get a leash, your teammates damage will contribute to your healing.

  • #15 FleurDeLiz

    Rank 1 Q vs rank 1 W

    33 damage per Q cast. 80 damage per W cast.

    4s cooldown on Q. 3s for second Q, 2s for third and beyond.. 14s cooldown on W

    So no, he wouldn't be 'dealing nearly the same damage'. Not even close. He's landing 4-5 Qs per camp and the break-even is 3.

     

  • #46 J5DubV

    I'm not saying don't get Q... you still get q at rank 2 once you beat Blue Golem... so you still have that rank 1 Q going... so at level 1 slightly less damage but afterward better damage and better sustain.

    (.66 * 80) * 5  + (4 * 80)  = 584 damage on a single target with q level 2 and w level 1 (5 q casts and 1 w cast)

    (.66 * 50) * 5 + (4 * 125) =  665 damage on a single target with q level 1 and w level 2 (5 q casts and 1 w cast)

    w deals damage per second over 4 seconds... and you will benefit from increased healing how do you think you deal so much less damage?

    The only way Q deals more damage is if you have 135 AD because of its .6 scaling.  Plus W deals magic damage which isn't affected by the jungle creeps armor whereas Q is physical and the damage is mitigated. If someone sees something wrong with my math let me know but I still believe W is better to max and will give you better damage more sustain and less mana problems early(such as if you are invaded and have to leave blue and go to take theirs).

    Last edited by J5DubV 11/18/2012 1:15:48 PM
  • #27 ohGr

    You want to take W first, but then you need to max Q first. It was equal damage back when it did 50% to minions. After the buff to do 66% minion damage, it surpasses W by a long ways. W is still your second ability to max though, so it'll only wait till 13 to have.

  • #11 ElMage21

    WHERE IS UDYR?!.

  • #10 Waaargh

    I saw through most of the vids via Youtube. Thanks for making them, it's great to be able to have something to theorize from. Glad to see my favoured Mundo is still going strong. Fiddle also seems like something to consider. I think how Olaf will work with machete, and how the other strong gankers will do: Nocturne, Rengar and Shaco. Anyways on with my post.

    The new jungle is harder. But there is a few basic mechanics that has changed things around, as you also touch on in the vids. I noticed the junglers had a very similar clear time, where it's more a case of how many ressources you have when you enter the lane (Fiddle and Warwick vs. Mundo and Sejuani). First we have the machete. It adds lots of damage to the jungling champion's basic attack, making differences smaller, I noticed how well Naut did with a leash and was quite happy about it. He does better now due to the machete. Here I will say that every champ should get help against the first buff camp.

    Next I thought about how the new movement speed changes helps junglers farm in particular. Without boots they all race through jungle at a faster pace than in season two, wasting less time travelling and not clearing camps.

    It also means the junglers have an easier time ganking lanes, when without boots. This is another debate though, and one in which I will show my noobyness by preferring to start without boots. CC will be the name of the game here. It can also be a design by Riot to decrease the early ganks by junglers, since jungling without machete is a harsh.

    So to recap:

    1. Junglers will be more equal with machete.

    2. MSpeed changes are a Good Thing(TM) for junglers.

    3. Sustain will be the big thing.

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