Inspiring Your Jungler's Hate

Several of the points in that colorful video are rather true to the jungle game. To be perfectly blunt there are some stuff certain players to do earn the utter hatred of their junglers. Honestly put junglers probably get the most crap than anyone else. It's not to say supports don't get hate - it's that junglers get more. Junglers basically are expected to babysit everyone all the time no matter where they are. Some players place the most obscene perspectives on their junglers. It's really stupid and often times - not always - it's the fault of the laner.

Anyhow I'll explain the points this feller eloquently made!

1. Don't give a jungler crap if you picked a laner that can't assist ganks

The guy explains this by alluding to his hatred of Fiora. She is considered one of the worst gank assisters on the game. Her damage is only high in duels, she has no cc and her chasing is pretty bad (her speed boost and Q suck). She doesn't provide much early when the ganks are coming in. Certain laners are already difficult to gank such as Vladimir, Jarvan and such even with teammates that aren't as awful like Fiora. Basically put if you want a jungler to actually have success ganking your lane you need the following.

- High burst: Certain characters have to basically be instagibbed or else they'll scamper off and laugh at you (Level 6 Ahri for example). There are few junglers that have significant burst (or those that do won't have the items to do so) so the laner has to provide it in most cases. If at anything this is more important if the team's jungler is a support and/or cc bot. They can lock someone down so the laner can output their max combo damage. However, god help you if you screw up your combo when the enemy is CC locked or their movement is hindered and predictable.

- Crowd Control: This is especially needed if your jungler leans more to the damage side or has only soft cc of his own. Hell if both of you have moderate damage you can chain your CC properly and just wail on the target till they die. The laner with crowd control can also help initiate the gank and make it so a jungler can nullify a ward by using that time to get his ass up to the lane. If the laner catches his opponent in a bad position with their crowd control this can allow the jungler to bum rush the lane and hopefully they can catch the enemy laner. It's baiting in order to buy time!

Now given these two things it's important to understand the situation for a successful gank to occur is still not always guaranteed. However these two factors greatly increase these chances. With that in mind you must understand when a jungler looks at your lane and goes "I could gank but we may not be able to deal enough damage/catch him."

In short, the opportunity to gank is not always there and by having a champion that cannot provide any of these things either because they're champions that don't have it or they're out of resources (mana) the opportunities become even less apparent.

2. A jungler is entitled to a few minions here and there depending on the situation

This is known as Jungle/Minion Tax. After your jungler ganks your lane they are sometimes free to take a few minions to help them out. There are pros and cons to this and there are some situations where a jungler should pick up some minion sand others where they should leave the lane alone.

A jungler should pick a few minions when...

- The lane should be pushed out in order to deny the enemy laner experience. In a case like this both of you should just push the lane hell bent. Whoever gets the gold gets it but the jungler shouldn't forget to at least aim for some last hits.

- The laning teammate was torn to pieces in the gank (dead or otherwise) and the jungler has to babysit. No one should bitch about this if the jungler isn't pushing it. If the jungler can just last hit them naturally then let him. I've actually had some players bitch about me last hitting minions they'd be losing.

- They're (very) close to buying a key item such as boots or madreds or something. That or you need a bit of gold to buy a ward to donate to someone.

A jungler should (angrily) pick up a few minions when...

- The laner is utterly useless and triage has been declared. This is a last resort sort of scenario. If the laner is behind it's not a good idea to take their minion wave but if they're behind because they suck as players and just miss minions - well it's your gold now. I will strip a laner of his minion wave if they're utterly worthless and I could do better getting bigger and fatter as a jungler.

- The laner botches the gank by not paying attention (even if you ping) or they let the kill go because they refused to use spells only until they could have potentially stolen the kill. In a case like this they wasted your time and denied you easy gold. Steal their stuff and walk away.

A jungler should not lane tax...

- When the laner isn't wanting/needing to push. A Nasus would never want you to push his lane so leave his monsters alone. He needs to control the lane - except if he's backing of course.

- When your teammate is behind and needs to recover. This was already explain but yeah don't make their life any harder.

3. Don't get mad when a smite is failed

This goes two ways honestly but sometimes shit happens. There are situations where you can scold a player for missing smite and other times when you can't.

The number one time you cannot say anything to your jungler is when they WARNED you that their smite is down and you go for an objective anyways. It's your own damn fault for not listening. It's one thing if they used smite on small minion when Baron was being contested but it's another when nothing has been going on. If the jungler warns you that his smite is not available then you cannot blame then.

However you can tear the jungler a new one if they have smite and the fail smite a free baron. It rarely happens but if a team wins a fight (though some survive) and goes for baron and it is taken by a lucky laser or something...well the jungler is in hot water now.

In truth it is all about communication and understanding. Sometimes the jungler will miss a smite in a panic situation (gets invaded) or whatever and, unless it's repeatedly, you shouldn't scold him too harshly. If they warned you then it's not completely their fault anymore.

4. If you don't ward then please burn in hell

I went over this in the jungle commandments post so I don't need to write about all that except a little portion.

Generally put having wards also helps us know which routes are open/safe for us to approach the gank with. God help us all if the jungler goes to gank only to be blindsided by a counter gank and get torn to pieces.

If a jungler decides to abandon your lane because it's simply too risky to help your ass then don't bitch. Placing a ward can help the jungler feel capable of helping you again. That said if you continuously die because you don't have wards and push out then you need more than the jungler's help to save you.

5. A jungler isn't here to win your lane

In short, the jungler's job is there to be a wild card for their team. It's to become an unpredictable force for their team and provide assistance wherever it's needed in many different forms.

A jungler is not here to win your lane for you. A jungler is here to HELP you win your lane and hopefully help their team win the game. There are few junglers that can carry a game by themselves without having to resort to murdering other players. Hell there are some junglers that still can't carry even if they get delicious blood gold. Simply put junglers are ENABLERS that set their team up the conditions for victory for their team and hopefully the jungler's team take advantage of that.

The jungler's job, in a very generalized explanation, is "to take advantage of any opportunity that becomes available and/or set up situations in which these advantages can be forced to occur or initiated." Basically put, a jungler is going to be running around and ganking lanes that seem gankable, warding for their team in places that are out of reach or dangerous for the laners, buffering defenses in a lane if needed, securing or defending objectives, farming gold in order to beef themselves up and simply keeping their team up on the information of the game. Keep in mind that they are not gods and can't always do everything. Junglers will need help or, if an opportunity shows, they may not be in place to take advantage of them yet.

Don't be pissed at a jungler that hasn't ganked your lane if they were busy helping out another lane or dunking the enemy jungler or whatever. You should learn to pay attention to what the jungler is doing and understand what they're doing before you curse at them. If they're being ham handed and useless though (not taking advantage of any opportunity) then you can rag on them.

Before I end this article I want to mention the biggest pet peeves of pretty much every jungler I talked to. The junglers that are more skilled than the average junglers really hate to be pinged. They know what's going on and they know what they have to do. They simply know the situation has to get a bit better before they go off and try to do something. Don't ping the jungler. Also god help you if you demand we ping for you when we're ganking if you were pinging us before. You were demanding a gank and yet you weren't paying any fucking attention when we were actually doing it for you? Are you only ragging on the jungler when they're gone and you think they're not helping you yet you won't say anything positive when they're actually there?


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Comments

  • #79 Kantuti

    Well since this turned into jungler rage-circlejerk kind of thread, i just had stupidiest experience ever.

    Nasus getting raped hard by Darius , kept crying for ganks. I literally did like 15 ganks within first 20 minutes as it was always pushed. He came out on top like 5/1. Couple of bad team fights later i got a bit behind on kills, and suddenly Nasus announces HE crushed his lane and would carry the game if it wasn't for feeder jungler.

    Jesus christ, some people are thick as fuck.

     

  • #72 Em0b01

    1 Question about lack of warding.. i find that when im in mid or top, i have to wait a few(10-20 gold) for a big item, and therefor dont have money for a ward sometimes. should you forgo a huge item just for a ward.? im usually safe in mid even without wards, though i always buy them every chance i get, thanks to playing people like ziggs, lux, or other long ranged CC champs.

  • #73 LPF

    Yes.  You buy wards.  Period.  Wards save lives.  Wards win games.  You get an Amp Tome + 2-3 wards instead of a Blasting Wand and 0 wards.  If you don't have enough gold to buy wards and items, you learn to farm better.

    In solo queue, you can't even rely on your support to ward half the time.  You buy wards.  The only time you get to not buy wards is 50+ minutes when you're at full build and don't have an inventory slot.    

    Wards keep you safe, but more importantly they help keep your team safe.  The enemy mid may try to head bot for a gank but if you have the "banana bush" warded (granting vision of the river + the enemy jungle ramp), you can see the enemy mid heading south.  Wards let you keep tabs on the enemy jungler.  Beyond just seeing if he's coming to gank, catching the jungler in a ward top lets your bot lane know they have at least 10-15 seconds to push without fear of a gank.  Catching sight of the jungler also lets you keep tabs on his items and level (hit tab) which, for someone like Hecarim who hits his strength around level 6, lets you know when to start being particularly cautious.    

    In terms of value they provide, wards should cost about 2-3 times what they actually do.  Wards are worth it. 

  • #75 Em0b01

    i mean i dont get wards when i wait to buy a hat... or a complete high tier item. not individual parts. and i only dont ward when its just me on the line in those few cases.

     

  • #84 ORangeJuicer

    Lol I do this a lot but what I should be doing is clearing one more wave of minions so that I get enough gold for my big item AND the ward(s).

  • #68 KulliKekkonen

    What I hate most is people taking my stuff at very early stages. The ADC took 2 small wolves because... it's good that I need to clear another camp to reach level 4? After first back I'm heading out again and the mid takes my Wraiths, possibly instead of his own farm because you don't need levels or gold, also good job losing half your health to Wraiths. Also not often but it happens, you want to go smiteless so you can buff to buff, well it doesn't work some dillhole takes it instead with a burst ability. Thanks!

    Losing 2 small wolves at the start isn't much, doesn't lose the game really but it's griefing and it's really annoying, just pointlessly screwing you over a bit. 

  • #69 McJix

    People shouldn't steal the small camp monsters, but accidents happen (or the person just decides to be a dick). If a wolf or some XP is stolen, I may take an ability at level 3 instead of level 4 just so I can gank.

    Last edited by McJix: 2/25/2013 1:08:23 PM
  • #70 Gunthore

    I don't mind the small wolves being taken during a leash, just make sure the jungler gets the big one.

     

  • #64 Gunthore

    Amen on lane tax. If a laner is the cause of a failed gank I'm grabbing a few cs before I leave. If you die during the gank and we got the kill, I'm pushing your lane to tower, and lastly, lay the f*** off a jungler last hitting after you b. I've have laners try to backping me into oblivion for doing nothing else but last hitting when they are still behind our inhibitors.

  • #59 fiveninths

    I agree with most of this, except the "don't ping" part. I think pinging to get the jungler's attention when the enemy is pushing the lane or vulnerable is an excellent idea.

    Junglers have 3 lanes AND their own jungle to worry about, they're not going to catch every tiny thing your lane opponent does (burning their flash or exhaust for example), so pinging to get their attention actually seems like a damn good idea (especially if they're heading back to their jungle, this way they can form a clearing path up to your lane if they need to farm).

  • #60 McJix

    Except for the "The junglers that are more skilled than the average junglers really hate to be pinged" part, which I agree with. A good jungler will be aware of what the situation is like in each lane, so you don't need to ping. If he's worth his weight in monster gold, then he'll be where he should be.

    As for the exhaust/flash thing, type it in chat so your intention is clear. When you ping the jungler it generally means "useless piece of crap jungler, come save my failing lane," even if that is not your intent.

  • #62 Ragnarok_Cometh

    I agree, if it's an action-packed laning phase and I'm running around doing all sorts of stuff I don't mind to hear a ping from top lane to notify me that the enemy is pushing or their ward just died or something.  But there's a huge difference between *ping* "Elise pushing, no flash" and *ping* *ping **ping* *ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping**ping* "OMG WHY YOU NO GNAK NOOB JANGLER!!!!11!"

    Last edited by Ragnarok_Cometh: 2/24/2013 10:29:58 PM
  • #71 LPF

    Ally lanes that are pushed under tower are like welcome mats for junglers.  Nothing is more delicious than hitting level 3/4, finishing my red, and seeing three gankable lanes so I can just role up the map.  Trust me, I'm looking for gank opportunities.  I want my 150 assist gold.  I want to snowball you ahead so I don't have to worry about you.  You don't have to ping the obvious.

    If, however, you've forced out a summoner spell, THAT I want to know about.  Pings don't tell me that.  So a quick "no flash mid" is a lot more useful.  And no, that doesn't mean I have to come RIGHT NOW.  I know how long flash is on cool down.  I know how long my window of opportunity is...should I choose to take it.  Stealing blue from the enemy Anivia, feeding our Vayne, and securing dragon may ultimately take higher priority.  At any given time, the jungler has 4-6 things he should be doing this very second.  Sometimes, you're on my radar but there are more valuable things I can do for the team.  

  • #50 Krebstarr

    This is exactly why I think most junglers are prima donnas.  You could write this post for any role, complaining about the other roles' shortcomings, except those roles usually don't write posts because they're not full of themselves.  How often do you hear a support refuse to help his lane?  

    Don't pick laners that can't help ganks?  By the same token, please don't pick junglers who can't gank.  Worthless ganks pre-6 (WW), no CC (Yi), no engage (Nasus), etc.    

    Jungler is entitled to lane farm?  Not any more than lanes are entitled to jungle's buffs, which is an attitude I hear junglers whine about constantly.  Lane taxing is petty, retaliatory, non-optimized gameplay.  If farm's gonna die when no one's around?  Sure, take it.  Otherwise, stop fooling yourself with empty justifications.  

    Don't ping the jungler?  Don't ask the jungler to ping when ganking?  Oh, forgive me for offending the ping gods!  If this is a hard and fast rule, then don't ping when you run in ahead on a stupid engage & get mad when your laner doesn't follow up - if your laner doesn't follow up it's because they know the situation and blahblahblah.  You're assuming the jungler always pays perfect attention (why they shouldn't be pinged) and complaining about when the laner doesn't - the rest of us might disagree with your opinions of the roles' good judgment.

    If you don't ward?  You're right on this, but everyone should ward, including the jungler.  This leads into the smite forgiveness rule too - how hard is it to out-lasthit someone when you have a 500+ true damage nuke?  "Their jungler has one too" - then ward the objective like a good jungler and don't give the other guy the chance to smite steal.  This is part of your job & it should be no surprise when you're held accountable for not doing your job, same as any other role..  

    (Lastly, and I agree with your explanation here, but hate when it's misused as following:)

    Jungler isn't here to help you win your lanes (so they don't have to gank lanes)?  This is laughable.  Junglers, please tell yourself that next time I refuse to help leash because it's not my job to help you jungle.  Tell yourself that next time I sit in lane and farm when I see someone invading your jungle.  Further, it's also not laner's job to win a lane short-handed.  If their jungle is ganking more than yours & you're losing the lane, that lane is outside the "his job/my job" distinction and becomes an instance of your jungle potentially costing you the lane. 

     

     

    Last edited by Krebstarr: 2/24/2013 3:20:05 PM
  • #52 pumis

    Funny every argument you did throw here, has already been answered in that video and in this article. Did you even read?

  • #53 Krebstarr

    No, I just underlined and contested points I took directly from the post, but somehow didn't read the post... (I also included an admission that I agree with his explanation on the "jungler not there to win your lane" point.)

     

    Don't ask pointless questions.  If you think what I'm saying is crap, say why.  I did read it (didn't watch the video), and that's what I've done for stonewall's post.

    Last edited by Krebstarr: 2/24/2013 3:48:57 PM
  • #81 jaezstix

    Going to have to say on this, you need glasses. We'll look at your last post, he says in the post that the jungler isn't here to win your lane, he's there to help you win your lane. 

    "A jungler is not here to win your lane for you. A jungler is here to HELP you win your lane and hopefully help their team win the game."

    Taken straight from the second paragraph, last point,  first few sentences in it. 

  • #56 StonewallRoG

    No most of your points were already answered in the article. I'll give another detail in one though - pick order is very important. If the jungler picked first and he went with someone with high damage but no CC then it's your fault if you pick someone who can't make ganking easier for them. However if the laner picked someone without CC or whatever and the jungler refuses to compliment it then it's their damn fault.

    The rest of it is just you being dense.

  • #58 Krebstarr

     

    For an example, I'll consider your cases where taxing the lane is OK:

    -pushing:  This is bull if the laner is capable of pushing by themself.

    -babysitting:  I ceded this point in my original post.

    -key item:  You're not entitled to anything.  It's a courtesy that will help your team, just like donating buffs to laners (hence my comparison).

    -laner botches gank:  This is just blame laying, and I highly doubt junglers are always good judges of why ganks fail.  

    -useless lane:  Again, I question the decision making that comes to this point.  Jungler gets mad about whatever dumb things they may (see the OP), decides your lane is trash (prolly doesn't help you), then if you lose your lane...this justifies the jungler taking your farm.  Just to reiterate, nothing here entitles anyone to anything.

     

    If the answer to my question of "why are you entitled to lane farm?" is "because I said so" (effectively your reasoning, unless you'd care to elaborate), then I guess there's really nothing here to dispute.  My post didn't just leave it at "you're wrong", and I'd personally appreciate not getting that in return.  I find it interesting how immediately someone questions whether I read the post, yet the response he provided to my post is more of a tl:dr post if I've ever seen one.  If you have no counters, that's fine, but don't pretend like I'm oblivious to the content of your post & that it's immune to criticism (which is what I provided).  If the answer to everything else is simple namecalling, that's even worse.

  • #61 darkserenity24

    Quote from StonewallRoG »

    No most of your points were already answered in the article. I'll give another detail in one though - pick order is very important. If the jungler picked first and he went with someone with high damage but no CC then it's your fault if you pick someone who can't make ganking easier for them. However if the laner picked someone without CC or whatever and the jungler refuses to compliment it then it's their damn fault.

    The rest of it is just you being dense.


    pretty much sums it up what I had in mind. About the thing where a jungler isn't the one to win your lane... its true. The most a jungler can do is make your lane even, so at the very least you are not losing. But to actually win the lane(CS, etc)? That's the laner's responsibility. It's the laner's damn job to at least adapt to the match up even if he does not know it.

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