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What League can Learn from Dota2

  • #21

    Quote from Arazen »

    It's not a bad game and I really like that every hero has at least one ability that is so grossly underpowered (but unique), that you kinda have to select which op skills exactly you want in the game. In LoL terms it feels like you have to choose between the hero that can solo Nashor at level 1 and the hero that can 1vs5 the enemy team once he has his this grossly overpowered item, that makes you immune to magic and cc for 10 seconds.

    As you can see, it's not just the heroes. Even the items are stupidly overpowered and you have to carefully choose, which one your hero can abuse the most.

    In the end you have a game, where players HAVE to deal with the mechanics. You can't gank Sand King without "Vision Wards" for example, because his Sand Storm skill on level 2 makes him invisible for 40 seconds with a cooldown of 30 seconds. Think of Akali's shroud, but you also get damaged when you stand in it ^^. Same with Broodmother, who can set up a huge ass net on a location and gets invisible, whenever she goes inside. Also she regens hp while in the net!

    Again, everything is overpowered and that's how it becomes a strategic and balanced game.

    I still don't play it, because I don't like the randomness of DotA.

    There is this hero who rolls a dice and if he is lucky, he'll stun you for like 5 seconds with a skill. If he's not, it stuns 1 second or anywhere inbetween. RNG in LoL is normalized and since the removal of crit in the offense tree, we don't have to deal with those early crits deciding the lane anymore. In DotA you can be lucky and get a "bash streak" (chance to stun on hit) and chain-stun an enemy until he is dead.

    This. Amen.

    Mongol General: Conan! What is best in life?

    Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

    Mongol General: That is good! That is good.

    - Conan the Barbarian -

  • #22

    Quote from PMilkos »

    Everyone and their dogs already have at least one key of DOTA 2. So yeah...

    Anyway, on topic:

    I would actually argue that LoL's client is much better. It's not ideal, by any stretch of the imagination, but it's much less cubersome and much more manageable. Especially when I'm trying to surf the net and manage by music playlists, DOTA 2 will just flat out not let me do while it's loading.

    And the user interface is AWFUL. Why the hell do I have to completely go out of the game screen to change my graphic settings, or even change my keybinds? Why can I not set my keybinds in the way I want to? Why can I not have smartcast? And, most important of all, why exactly must the 2 teams be color coded green and red, with no colorblind option?

     

    Anyway, after a few days of playing Dota 2, my opinion of it is that it is indeed more complex and harder and with more stuff than LoL, but the vast majority of it is just dead weight. It does not translate to nearly as much gameplay depth or game quality as the extra complexity would indicate. 

    what the fuck are you talking about. 
    dota has such a fucking amazing client, it blows leagues out of the water by miiiiiiles, moby dick miles.
    you can change keybinds, you can change graphics, you can do EVERYTHING IN-GAME. smartcast doesn't exist because it's unique to league.
       the gameplay 'complexity' isnt clear at first, but once you get 'pro' at the game you'll see just how exactly you can 1v5 in that game with just your game knowledge. 

    Last edited by DARKWING: 1/30/2013 6:39:11 PM
  • #23

    It's really sickening how many bugs there are with the LoL client and how many numerous server/login issues they have.

    There are many things Riot can do to improve either in game or on their website/forums and I can only hope they get their shit together.

    That said, love the game!

  • #24

    really? ive never had a single issue with LoL.
    Ive never encountered bugs, crashes or complications of any sort

  • #25

    Dota2 is far simplier than LoL and has by far worst player community I've ever met. Oldskool dota was better, all 6 years I played it.

  • #26

    well i played a lot of DotA on wc3 TFT. then i found LoL and rly after getting used to LoL when i tried playing Dota2 i instantly saw how much better LoL is. yes LoL's client could be better but the game itself is really great. and our community isn't that bad either. a few of my friends who introduced me to LoL  are now playing dota2 why? because Dota2 is much easier for them that's what they said.

    ideot nobs makieing me loose gams, NOOBY PLS!

  • #27

     

    Quote from DARKWING»

    what the fuck are you talking about. 
    dota has such a fucking amazing client, it blows leagues out of the water by miiiiiiles, moby dick miles.
    you can change keybinds, you can change graphics, you can do EVERYTHING IN-GAME. smartcast doesn't exist because it's unique to league.
       the gameplay 'complexity' isnt clear at first, but once you get 'pro' at the game you'll see just how exactly you can 1v5 in that game with just your game knowledge. 

     

    It does have a lot more stuff. But more stuff does not equal a better client. 

    I want a client that lets me tab in and out at will and does not mess with all the other things I'm running at the same time. For that, LoL's client is perfect. DOTA 2's ... not. At all. Not to mention it tends to just crash on loading every now and then.

    LoL allows you to just bring up the settings window directly in the in-game UI. In DOTA 2 you have to press a button that completely blocks out the game and puts you in the lobby side of the client, change your settings, then return to the actual game. Not that bad, but needless time lost. On the upside, dota 2 allows you to change settings without being in a game.

    And I'm not talking "complexity" as in "learn the champions and items etc". That's the same as in LoL. LoL is actually harder in that regard, because in Dota most champions will just autoattack you to death and maybe throw a couple active abilities every now and then.

    No, I'm talking about pointless complexity. Like denying, or having 3 types of shops spread across the map, or having to manually control units that could easily be AI-controled with exactly the same effectiveness. Do these things add depth to the gameplay? Sure they do. Is it proportionate to the amount of complexity? Not even close... And, to be honest, most of those mechanics are not even particularly complex, they're just busy work...

    Last edited by PMilkos: 1/30/2013 8:27:27 PM
  • #28

    Quote from PMilkos »

     

    Quote from DARKWING»

    what the fuck are you talking about. 
    dota has such a fucking amazing client, it blows leagues out of the water by miiiiiiles, moby dick miles.
    you can change keybinds, you can change graphics, you can do EVERYTHING IN-GAME. smartcast doesn't exist because it's unique to league.
       the gameplay 'complexity' isnt clear at first, but once you get 'pro' at the game you'll see just how exactly you can 1v5 in that game with just your game knowledge. 

     

    It does have a lot more stuff. But more stuff does not equal a better client. 

    I want a client that lets me tab in and out at will and does not mess with all the other things I'm running at the same time. For that, LoL's client is perfect. DOTA 2's ... not. At all. Not to mention it tends to just crash on loading every now and then.

    LoL allows you to just bring up the settings window directly in the in-game UI. In DOTA 2 you have to press a button that completely blocks out the game and puts you in the lobby side of the client, change your settings, then return to the actual game. Not that bad, but needless time lost. On the upside, dota 2 allows you to change settings without being in a game.

    And I'm not talking "complexity" as in "learn the champions and items etc". That's the same as in LoL. LoL is actually harder in that regard, because in Dota most champions will just autoattack you to death and maybe throw a couple active abilities every now and then.

    No, I'm talking about pointless complexity. Like denying, or having 3 types of shops spread across the map, or having to manually control units that could easily be AI-controled with exactly the same effectiveness. Do these things add depth to the gameplay? Sure they do. Is it proportionate to the amount of complexity? Not even close... And, to be honest, most of those mechanics are not even particularly complex, they're just busy work...

    then it's your pc which is at loss, never had any trouble with loading or alt-tabbing in dota2. 

    denying REDUCES the xp the enemy gains and removes any potential gold gain. busy work? few games - maybe, after a couple? you're so used to it you don't even think about it. 
    the shops are so called 'choke points' which you want warded for potential ganks etc. (especially secret shop)
    AI-controlled units? what, how could that possibly add any effectiveness? microing creeps like chen's or necronomicon adds immense skill cap to said hero and allows you to, if mastered, outplay the enemy SO disgustingly hard. body block using creep? hell yea. 

  • #29

    I just don't like the lack of counter-play in some of their mechanics. Like, is it really that fun to give Juggernaut an CC-immunity on a 30 second CD? Maybe it's fun for the Juggernaut player, but what about the other 5 players he's charging through then? Is it really that interesting to give Chaos Knight a 2 second variance in his targeted stun? I'd argue stupid stuff like that adds nothing to the gameplay and their prescene in the game is like having a Darius for each one.  Does denying, a which started as a warcraft 3 bug, really add to gameplay, or was it some dumb mechanic that DotA players tolerated until predictably, they started defending it.

  • #30

    the thing what makes lol such a good game is:

    its simple.

    the rules, the mechanics, everything is simple.

    u go through the 2 minute tutorial and ur able to play a solid first game on summonerst rift.

    after 1 day of playtime u know what dragon etc. is and u know how to buy ap, ad etc. items.

     

    in dota its just pure chaos and randomness.

    I played lol for 1 1/2 year now and still I dont know how to itemize in dota and what to buy, because all the stats and item actives are just derp and stupid.

     

    having a game being simple is way better than being "for pros only".

    the thing why riot and lol is so successful is, because everyone can play it, my girlfriend, my mom, even my grandparents.

    and while being so easy to understand it still gives enough depth to be played on pro level with a huge gap compared to casual play.

    thats what makes lol so awesome compared to dota, which is only played by people, who really are into mobas.

    I wanna see any casual person play dota2, I dont know any.

  • #31
    Ah yes... I too have a girlfriend, this relates to me also.
  • #32

    i have to agree, dota2 isnt that easy to get into. i miss smartcast and the press space to lock onto your character option.

    the shop, especially the item-upgrade tree looks kinda weird and isn so foolproof like the lol shop interface.

    but i do like the more flexible meta (as far as i know), the "support role" ofc being somewhat more active and decisive.

     

    btw ive got like 12 dota2 keys left, and valve continues to send me additional ones it seems. pm me with your email and ill send u some invites.

    Last edited by mikkalol: 1/30/2013 10:41:34 PM
  • #33

    I don't like Dota2 because this makeshift labtop I'm using can't play it.

    I was an old Dota player, and it drove me to League of Legends about a year back.  League is fun and far simpler, providing a great community.  I don't consider the League of Legends community any more toxic than any other community.  Far more vocal, but no more toxic.  Unlike many other teamwork based games, this one is also a VS, for lack of a proper word.  LoL is all about fighting an enemy team, with your own team.  Just like Dota and Dota2.  That can't be ignored.  These games are famous for extremely toxic communities.  You hate horrible players ,you hate those who brag, you hate those who're better than you and you hate who'ever's worse.  You hate the enemy team for winning and you hate them more when they're talking.

    This isn't a fighting game, this isn't an MMO.  It's also not Starcraft, in which the game is not only balanced but to the most minute of details.  it's your fault when you get hit by a Hadouken, it's you're fault you didn't spy out that early Spire.  If you failed to stand out of the fire, it's your fault again.  Everything you do is reliant on you.  Team games are different, you're relying on team mates, on people you don't know.

    Nothing on this Earth is harder than getting people to cooperate. 

    I like Dota, it's a great fun little game. Heroes are overpowered and have some amazing abilities.  The games are different because they set out to be different. LoL could use a better Client, but that doesn't make LoL's client bad.  Dota2 is focused on providing a solid experience, rated and controlled.  LoL went for the easier to play and pick up method.  You don't have to memorize those weird item recipes.  No need to get silly with your starter item, +1 to stats or Tango spam?  Eating tree's is fun, the Night and day was cool. They arn't required for the gameplay, so we can live without them.

    Man, talking about other MOBA games on MOBA sites really brings out the hate in people doesn't it?  Half of these comments are hard as hell to read.

  • #34

    Quote from DARKWING »

    Quote from PMilkos »

    Everyone and their dogs already have at least one key of DOTA 2. So yeah...

    Anyway, on topic:

    I would actually argue that LoL's client is much better. It's not ideal, by any stretch of the imagination, but it's much less cubersome and much more manageable. Especially when I'm trying to surf the net and manage by music playlists, DOTA 2 will just flat out not let me do while it's loading.

    And the user interface is AWFUL. Why the hell do I have to completely go out of the game screen to change my graphic settings, or even change my keybinds? Why can I not set my keybinds in the way I want to? Why can I not have smartcast? And, most important of all, why exactly must the 2 teams be color coded green and red, with no colorblind option?

     

    Anyway, after a few days of playing Dota 2, my opinion of it is that it is indeed more complex and harder and with more stuff than LoL, but the vast majority of it is just dead weight. It does not translate to nearly as much gameplay depth or game quality as the extra complexity would indicate. 

    what the fuck are you talking about. 
    dota has such a fucking amazing client, it blows leagues out of the water by miiiiiiles, moby dick miles.
    you can change keybinds, you can change graphics, you can do EVERYTHING IN-GAME. smartcast doesn't exist because it's unique to league.
       the gameplay 'complexity' isnt clear at first, but once you get 'pro' at the game you'll see just how exactly you can 1v5 in that game with just your game knowledge. 

    This. Well said sir.

  • #35

    People don't seem to like how complex Dota2 is. The fact of the matter is that it's not that much more complex than League. It's just a lot of different things with a couple complex elements in addition. The fact that you really dont counter skills, but rather champions with other champions, is the biggest example of this. I did not find if too hard to get into.

  • #36

    LoL doesn't have Skeleton King

     

     

    Points for Dota.

  • #37

    Quote from Misticaltom »

    LoL doesn't have Skeleton King

     

     

    Points for Dota.

    that long range stun/dot guy, with the lifesteal, meleecrit and revive passive? awesome!

     

    if league wouldve created a critrelying meleechamp with selfheal, a gapcloser and somewhat invulnerability-esque ult.

    maybe even some barbaric themed male hero. guess ill post that jewel in the riot suggestion forums

  • #38

    What League can really use from DotA 2 is the small character interactions that DotA has, (Besides special taunts when dying, DotA has when two allies who work well together the characters will occasionally have some kind of small talk or battle shouts going between each other, or when someones screws up an ult the characters will get pissed about it.), and they could really use that Voice command Wheel, that wheel is the possibly the best thing in DotA 2 and should definetly be implemented into League in some way.

  • #39

    When i'm seeing all this stuff about Dota2 complexity and how it's more skilled , etc ..

    Every time i'm like "lol Wtf bro. Are you high?".

    Dota 2 have a nice graphic and a not so bad client (Not so bad because of forced full screen). But Dota 2 suffer severe gameplay super fail. 

    Take that thing about denying: Can you deny in lol? no. And that's good, because i can zone. Zoning a champion is in fact much more efficient than denying it. Zoned champion have no gold and no exp. They only have tears to cry on theyr misfortune.

    Denied champ can just stay here and take reduced exp but that's exp, gold because you will miss some cs and unless you are a f*cking machine you will end up having less cs than if you have just farmed only your creep.

     

    Too much broken ability and frustrating mechanic. Randomize ability are never fun. Hiden debuff are never fun. etc...

    Zileas had post a thread about gameplay pattern and anti pattern i found very interesting. here is a link http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417

    Dota2 is maybe skilled, but this is not good skill. To much of this difference of skill is just bad mechanics.

  • #40

    Quote from ReganDryke »

    When i'm seeing all this stuff about Dota2 complexity and how it's more skilled , etc ..

    Every time i'm like "lol Wtf bro. Are you high?".

    Dota 2 have a nice graphic and a not so bad client (Not so bad because of forced full screen). But Dota 2 suffer severe gameplay super fail. 

    Take that thing about denying: Can you deny in lol? no. And that's good, because i can zone. Zoning a champion is in fact much more efficient than denying it. Zoned champion have no gold and no exp. They only have tears to cry on theyr misfortune.

    Denied champ can just stay here and take reduced exp but that's exp, gold because you will miss some cs and unless you are a f*cking machine you will end up having less cs than if you have just farmed only your creep.

     

    Too much broken ability and frustrating mechanic. Randomize ability are never fun. Hiden debuff are never fun. etc...

    Zileas had post a thread about gameplay pattern and anti pattern i found very interesting. here is a link http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417

    Dota2 is maybe skilled, but this is not good skill. To much of this difference of skill is just bad mechanics.


    That's a pretty poor example, one can ZONE in dota and yes it's more effective than denying, it is however a different strategy and your lane opponent will have a different angles of attack avalible. The easiest way I find to explain the diffenances between the two is DOTA is mean and over-reactive, while Lol is a forgiving softie.
    I die in dota, not only do my opponents gain resources, I lose them.
    I buy a silly build in Lol, my champ still scales of some of the stats. Buy a silly build in dota, and you've done NOTHING to improve your character.
    Lol used to have dodge, removed because no motter how improbable dodging 5 AAs in a row is BS. DOTA well that is BS.... but we'll put a 33% dodge on the best DPS item for agility charaters in the game.
    Dota, wow my opponent has a lower ping than me, he litelally has twice as much time to last hit and deny as me in lane. Lol wow my opponents ping is low, that will really come into play when landing skillshots and juke battles, but it won't remove my ability to contribute to the game, like it would in dota.

    Lol is nice, Dota is mean. I like playing nice games.

     

    I have no idea what I am doing, honest. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/oce/304784

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