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Not being able to drop a tier good or bad?

  • #1

    I have recently broken the chains of bronze and got into silver tier recently and have noticed something odd. First of all, bronze tier is littered with trolls (as im sure all tiers are) but i managed to finally get passed it. But I noticed a huge spike in trolls and bad players (even worse then bronze) at the bottom of silver tier. Im no professional nor do i claim to be the best player, but it seems the spike in trolls is more active in this lower division 5 of silver. My best guess is that people got good placement matches (or good enough) to get put in silver.  But in actuality should be in bronze. With the league system they are not going to ever drop a tier they are just stuck in div 5 of silver, making peoples games horrible. Its just when you are at the bottom of a tier, you really have nothing to lose... at all. I love the league system and it was a step inthe right direction, but i also love not having the stress of losing my silver to sent back to bronze. Im just wandering if anyone else has similar experiences with this. Maybe even at gold? or higher. This isnt a QQ post or anything to do with "ELO HELL" I just simply want a discussion. I just thought the grass was greener on a higher tier. 

     

    TL:DR Trolling and bad players more abundant at division 5 of each tier? 

    NOT A QQ POST or an "OMG IM IN ELO HELL" post either. Healthy discussion...

  • #2

    *gasp* Something vaguely related to ELO Hell?

    RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

    Haven't noticed it myself but I haven't been in a division 5 yet, either going up or down. I doubt there would be anything more than a small effect. Matchmaking is determined by MMR, not division, and I usually find myself playing with more people of either a higher or lower division than my own.

     

  • #3

    Isn't it obvious to expect that there'd be more trolls and 'bad' players in the 5th division of each league? In fact, I'd go so far as to say the 1st division of a league is better than the 5th division of the next league. Since you can't drop tiers, the 5th division should theoretically be full of the kinds of people who lose every game, ie. trolls.

  • #4

    It's trolls all the way up, I'm afraid.

  • #5

    My main point being, that not having anything to lose encourages ppl to relax a bit too much. I understand 5th division should be the worst players of the tier, but when you mix players who already have nothing to lose with there own self boredom raises trolling. 

    Also, maybe its just in my head, but when i was doing my promotion games to get to silver, everyone player that felt the need to "Mid or afK" came out and decided to make it harder to advance. 

    These are just my experiences, wish i had screen caps of some of the people ive come across. 

    And yes, ive noticed coming across bronze players and some even t1 silver in the same game. 

  • #6

    The matchmaking doesn't take your league or division into account. Games are still determined from your hidden MMR (Matchmaking Rating - another word for elo), so if you advance to a new division and start chain-loosing games you will still be matched with players several divisions or even leagues below you. The only difference is bragging rights, feeling you've accomplished something substantial that you'll never loose (just like top elo was, now only it feels better because you have several checkpoints).

    In conclusion it's probably mostly psychological, because you felt you should get fewer trolls just because you advanced to a new league, even though in reality for your first few games you'll be matched with about the same people you got matched before. Trolls exist at all levels of play, although as you climb the ladder you'll probably notice more people willing to play support and jungler and fewer people feeding on an 1v1 lane without the jungler camping that lane.

     

  • #7

    Quote from Ariathor »

    The matchmaking doesn't take your league or division into account. Games are still determined from your hidden MMR (Matchmaking Rating - another word for elo), so if you advance to a new division and start chain-loosing games you will still be matched with players several divisions or even leagues below you. The only difference is bragging rights, feeling you've accomplished something substantial that you'll never loose (just like top elo was, now only it feels better because you have several checkpoints).

    In conclusion it's probably mostly psychological, because you felt you should get fewer trolls just because you advanced to a new league, even though in reality for your first few games you'll be matched with about the same people you got matched before. Trolls exist at all levels of play, although as you climb the ladder you'll probably notice more people willing to play support and jungler and fewer people feeding on an 1v1 lane without the jungler camping that lane.

     

    Ah That makes a hell of a lot more sense. Thanks :) 

  • #8

    Yes, if you troll in the new system you get to play with worse players. 

    But you will never lose your current tier, ever.

    There are SOME people who have no intention to climb and just wanna ruin other people's day by trolling.

    IE:Some men just wanna watch the world burn.

    It's inevitable, try doing good deeds or worship the god you believe in so that you are lucky enough not to team with one of them.

    Last edited by voca0831: 2/22/2013 8:01:48 AM
  • #9

    As people have mentioned, MMR decides who you play with.

    Tier and Division are personal measurements of self growth.  Your Elo will have raised in order to go from Bronze 3 to Silver 5, for sure, but it could very well drop right back down to what it was after.  The tiers don't make the game any better or worse.  It's like using a skin.  It doesn't affect the mechanics of the champion.  It's just pretty to look at and/or be proud of.

    However, if you -do- progress from Silver 5 to Silver 4/3/2/1, then you'll have for sure gone up in Elo.

    For me, reaching lvl 5 is a breath of fresh air.  Climbing division one gets pretty rough.  Your LP gains become much smaller and so you're really needing to win around 8 games in a row, depending on where you are. From 60 to 100 is, for me, about 5 wins, then you have to win your best of 5.  I would hate to do all that work, lose 3 games and go right back into Bronze.

    Again, you're matched by MMR (ELO), so Tier doesn't matter.  Think of it as an Achievement Point.  You earn it and it's yours forever. 

  • #10

    Quote from Alithandros »

    As people have mentioned, MMR decides who you play with.

    Tier and Division are personal measurements of self growth.  Your Elo will have raised in order to go from Bronze 3 to Silver 5, for sure, but it could very well drop right back down to what it was after.  The tiers don't make the game any better or worse.  It's like using a skin.  It doesn't affect the mechanics of the champion.  It's just pretty to look at and/or be proud of.

    However, if you -do- progress from Silver 5 to Silver 4/3/2/1, then you'll have for sure gone up in Elo.

    For me, reaching lvl 5 is a breath of fresh air.  Climbing division one gets pretty rough.  Your LP gains become much smaller and so you're really needing to win around 8 games in a row, depending on where you are. From 60 to 100 is, for me, about 5 wins, then you have to win your best of 5.  I would hate to do all that work, lose 3 games and go right back into Bronze.

    Again, you're matched by MMR (ELO), so Tier doesn't matter.  Think of it as an Achievement Point.  You earn it and it's yours forever. 

    Yes it is a relief to get to the next milestone and would be uber frustrating to drop back a tier. I went through 4 promotion series in 2 days and would barely miss it by a game.I did some reading on the MMR and yeah it makes more sense now. Just glad i got rid of the poopy bronze color out of my profile :)

  • #11

    Yes, getting to the next tier is a pretty big milestone. Congratulations on reaching silver and may your games be interesting and troll-free ;)

  • #12

    Quote from Ariathor »

    Yes, getting to the next tier is a pretty big milestone. Congratulations on reaching silver and may your games be interesting and troll-free ;)

    Thank you!

  • #13

    I'm in the bottom of Gold and yeah it's really hard to win a game, a lot moreso than in Silver I even though the difference is only 50 LP on average. I welcome not losing Gold, as in my achievement is here to stay, but having the worst players of a 350 LP range makes it virtually impossible to carry yourself :P

     

    EDIT: Okay, I now read the whole thread. Is there really such a thing as a matchmaking rating? It's not the thing which Lolking measures?

    Last edited by CakeDoer: 2/22/2013 10:15:48 AM
  • #14

    Quote from Ariathor »

    The matchmaking doesn't take your league or division into account. Games are still determined from your hidden MMR (Matchmaking Rating - another word for elo), so if you advance to a new division and start chain-loosing games you will still be matched with players several divisions or even leagues below you. The only difference is bragging rights, feeling you've accomplished something substantial that you'll never loose (just like top elo was, now only it feels better because you have several checkpoints).

    In conclusion it's probably mostly psychological, because you felt you should get fewer trolls just because you advanced to a new league, even though in reality for your first few games you'll be matched with about the same people you got matched before. Trolls exist at all levels of play, although as you climb the ladder you'll probably notice more people willing to play support and jungler and fewer people feeding on an 1v1 lane without the jungler camping that lane.

     


    this guy knows

    also still if there are trolls you get an automatic 55% winrate(5 trolls in the enemy team every 4 trolls on your team on average)

  • #15

    LoLKing introduced its lolking score in an attempt to approximate elo after Riot decided to hide it. You can assume it's a good indicator of your MMR, but we don't know the exact numbers and algorithms Riot uses to determine your real MMR.

  • #16
    According to riot your league and division is irrelevant, your MMR is what matters (it's a hidden value like non ranked Elo) if your diamond 5 and can't drop but you lose a hundred games you'll play against bronze 5 and when you win you'll gain like 1MMR for it and your LP probably won't even budge.
  • #17

    Quote from Liquid_Oclel0t »

    My main point being, that not having anything to lose encourages ppl to relax a bit too much. I understand 5th division should be the worst players of the tier, but when you mix players who already have nothing to lose with there own self boredom raises trolling. 

    Also, maybe its just in my head, but when i was doing my promotion games to get to silver, everyone player that felt the need to "Mid or afK" came out and decided to make it harder to advance. 

    These are just my experiences, wish i had screen caps of some of the people ive come across. 

    And yes, ive noticed coming across bronze players and some even t1 silver in the same game. 

    I would have figured that people would be more inclined to try get out of Division V as quickly as possible. But I can easily imagine those that have been stuck in there for ages (Since their MMR is Bronze) to start trolling because it almost seems impossible to get out of when you play multiple matches to get to 99 only to lose it all in one or two matches.

    Regardless, I thought it'd work the way you mentioned. But in reality, MMR determine the quality of players you'll be surrounded with. Play badly enough, and you'll start coming across Bronze V in your team and enemy teams even if you are in Silver V.

  • #18

    Quote from Gameguy301 »

    According to riot your league and division is irrelevant, your MMR is what matters (it's a hidden value like non ranked Elo) if your diamond 5 and can't drop but you lose a hundred games you'll play against bronze 5 and when you win you'll gain like 1MMR for it and your LP probably won't even budge.


    Actually I don't see a reason why you'd be gaining only 1 MMR point when in diamond V and playing against bronze players. Your MMR will probably be around 1000 (speaking in old elo terms) and that's the thing that should impact your MMR gains. On the other hand, Riot has stated that indeed you'll only gain very few LP, because of the system's "confidence" that you actually below in bronze tier and have no right to advance even further in diamond. Obviously that should normalize as your MMR approaches your division's average MMR and you start getting matched against diamond players again

  • #20

    Quote from Ariathor »

    Quote from Gameguy301 »

    According to riot your league and division is irrelevant, your MMR is what matters (it's a hidden value like non ranked Elo) if your diamond 5 and can't drop but you lose a hundred games you'll play against bronze 5 and when you win you'll gain like 1MMR for it and your LP probably won't even budge.


    Actually I don't see a reason why you'd be gaining only 1 MMR point when in diamond V and playing against bronze players. Your MMR will probably be around 1000 (speaking in old elo terms) and that's the thing that should impact your MMR gains. On the other hand, Riot has stated that indeed you'll only gain very few LP, because of the system's "confidence" that you actually below in bronze tier and have no right to advance even further in diamond. Obviously that should normalize as your MMR approaches your division's average MMR and you start getting matched against diamond players again


    Confirming what this poster said: your MMR gains would be normal; your LP gains would be low.

    Quote from Deliqe »

    Riot should put more things into factor when calculating LP gains and loses. For example in duo queue you should gain only half the points for win and lose full points for defeat because it is WAY easier to win in duo queue.

     Is it?

    Last edited by GentlemanGustaf: 2/22/2013 7:11:17 PM
  • #21

    Quote from Deliqe »

    Riot should put more things into factor when calculating LP gains and loses. For example in duo queue you should gain only half the points for win and lose full points for defeat because it is WAY easier to win in duo queue.


    Actually when you duo-queue you normally get matched against slightly higher ranked opponents to compensate for the increased coordination you and your partner should have.

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