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AD carrying and bottom lane

  • #1

    Long read ahead. I'm also not good, please take that into consideration and don't be too judgemental if I say something iffy.

    After Quinn's release I have given AD Carrying another try, even though I mostly play her top lane for fun; but this thread isn't particularly about her. I'm making this thread because I want some tips on how to understand this role and lane. I'd really appreciate anybody who knows the role well enough to answer my questions. At first (I started playing in May 2012, so this is from S2) AD Carries were my best characters. I played Corki and Kog'maw and got amazing scores with them (according to my beginner mindset), and they were my best champions. However, these amazing scores only came from the reasons that this was in the beginning of my LoL career, and I was at such a low level where distinguished roles didn't really exist. People did whatever the hell they wanted, there was no such thing as a support, and you were actually bashed for trying to jungle. Of course back then I thought Corki and Kog'maw were the best champs ever, they did so much damage and they were ranged and they were so easy to play, or at least that was my newbie mindset working because I didn't know enough about the game.

    When I got better and obviously got matched with better players, character roles became more distinguished and that's when the meta started sinking in. So now I find that I can't go ADC's against melees or random champs anymore, I'm stuck with a support against another ADC and a support. And this is when I stopped playing AD Carries. Corki somehow went from being one of my best champions to my second worst ADC, and I just stopped playing Kog'maw. I hated the idea that bottom lane basically required a support, and this made it so radical in comparison to top or mid. I hated the fact that just one CC effect from a Taric or Blitzcrank or Caitlyn trap or even a simple slow was all it took to end my life, and I hated the fact that it was so snowbally that basically one kill/gank or just a small lead in CS for the enemy could spell out doom for you, and I hated the fact that I could get zoned entirely from CS by the support simply standing in the middle of the lane and walking towards me when I got close. After this, I just got completely demotivated from playing AD Carry. I just couldn't figure out how to lane. I started saying things in champ select such as "I can fill anything but adc" and every time I was forced into it I either fed or fell behind hard. I also didn't like the tiny pool of champions that were actually desirable. All I see now is Ezreal, Miss Fortune, or Caitlyn. So I basically gave up on the role even though outside of laning phase, I found myself doing fine.

    On the other hand, outside of laning phase, I really enjoyed the role. I never found teamfight positioning to be a problem, or at least not at my level. So anyways, one champion made me realize that I want to be good at the role. I decided to get this AD Carry after playing Quinn, plus I had the IP for it so it was an impulse buy and I wanted them for a while. This champion happened to be Vayne. Now I'll just say from playing her on free weeks and after buying her, that Vayne is undoubtedly my worst AD Carry, not only that, but quite possibly my worst champion in this game. I played her in quite a few games, somewhere around 15, but I only remember winning three of them, going positive in four of them, and not getting borderline murdered in laning phase in one of them. However, once laning phase is over, she suddenly becomes one of my favorite ADCs, to the point where I'm now determined that I wanna get good with her. No matter how many supports I gain the eternal hatred of (I'm sorry to any support main out there, please don't hate me just yet).

    So on to the questions. I decided my main ADCs will most likely be Vayne and Kog'maw, but it's not like I'm not going to play other ADCs too. For one thing, are Vayne and Kog'maw even worth it? In Vayne's case I want to at least know if she is regarded well as an ADC. I know that her laning phase is very weak, but the trade-off is that her late game is terrifying, however is she a good pick at all? If she is not, I will learn her anyways though not play her unless the situation allows for it, but in Kog'maw's case I still don't really know. I know that he is also a late game monster, but I personally think his laning is easier for me than Vayne's. What puts me off from him right now is his lack of mobility, which I hear is a really serious issue with the meta shifting to assassins and gap closers, but if he is strong I definitely will continue playing him.

    Next, are Doran's blades even worth it? Or Double Doran's? It seems that I don't want to get bogged down by the early game and just build straight for late game now. It seems that Quinn could probably work with it since her early game is pretty strong, but won't Vayne and Kog'maw will probably just see it as a burden? Next, how do I know how to be aggressive? A lot of the time what happens in the lane phase is that I try to harass a bit when it seems safe only to get blown up, I've once had a game as Twitch where I walked into lane and just slightly out of my tower range only to literally get two-shotted by Draven (blind pick.) So essentially I just developed this mindset where it's better to be zoned than to even attempt to fight. Do I play passively until my support makes plays or should I just be more aggressive and not give in so hard? And finally, I heard Doublelift saying that if the current meta continues, AD Carries will be dead. I kind of understand this since all AD carry items got nerfed in both effectiveness and price, and with champions like Kha'zix or Vi it's really hard now. Is it really that big of an issue that it may just end up killing the role? Am I going to be forced to go bruiser Quinn/Vayne top (kidding, kidding, but I'll probably do it anyways cause I'm a scrub)?

    Thank you to anyone who can help out, I really want to learn this role and I'm tired of just giving up on it. Even after practicing I can't think of any time I won bottom lane without outside help unless I was Kog'maw or Draven. I usually just rely on a miraculous midgame/late game comeback to get me rolling, which is usually what happens but I know perfectly well that is just unreasonable to rely on and it only happens because of the level I play at. So in a summary, please help me with Vayne, help me understand laning phase, and help me just understand this role by itself. Thanks again!

    If anything, I really like champions that promote passive play (it's just my favorite playstyle), so that's why I made my choices like I did.

    Last edited by RtMbot: 3/7/2013 10:37:11 PM
  • #2

    Quote from RtMbot »

    If anything, I really like champions that promote passive play (it's just my favorite playstyle), so that's why I made my choices like I did.

    Just as a first thing to say. Passive play is not a winning play style. If you play passively, particularly in bottom lane where you can be poked by two champs, you will just slowly lose your lane. You have to learn the basics of trading, while maintaining CS and map awareness. It's hard to immediately get to this point of competency though and I suggest you try to break it down and work on individual facets first. I.e. Play a few custom games against a bot and just focus on your CS'ing until you can reach 80-90 creeps at 10 mins without even thinking about it.

    I could add a lot more to this, but short of playing with you I can't offer much more specifics. There are some fantastic guides around about laning mechanics though and I can not over state the importance of learning to trade effectively (never take free damage and always punish the enemy when you can, i.e. when you know they are about to last hit a creep. Knowledge is power.). If you can establish lane dominance by winning trades you will find you can CS very easily as you can get to the point where the enemy is so zoned that you get to free farm. Although not always achievable, this should always be your goal.

  • #3

    Passive play is extremely effective. Passive does not necessarily mean you sit there and get poked, but it can be if you run a sona or a soraka and just sit back and farm.

    Most players put too much weight in harassing, do it at the wrong times, and trade inefficiently. It also disrupts their farming, I cannot tell you how many times I've watched a shitty ADC nuke creeps and the opposing hero, miss out on 2-3 creep kills, and either lose the trade or trade evenly.

    Prioritize creep kills, harass with spells like Ashe's multi or Caitlyn's shot when creeps and enemy positioning permits. That is to say, to pick up creeps via the shot and slow the ebb of the lane or off towards the heroes that doesn't make you miss cs and doesn't shove your lane.

    Dorans is extremely strong, probably the safest first buy. That said, longsword+2 is also a strong buy. Boots+3 is pointless. If you can bully hard, red pot+healing pots is stronger than a dorans open, has more regen than any other opening, and pretty much assures you win any trades. It can also be used to bait, much like heal baiting. Doran's weakness is heavy poke. Longsword's weakness is trading, you will always lose to a doran's buy unless you've sufficiently harassed the 80 health deficit down. Red pot buy is stronger than bother longsword and dorans, but only for the first laning 'phase' before first back. You will then have to have had made a decent amount of gold on the enemy or killed them, or obviously not used the red pot, to make this build efficent. Longsword also has the viability of moving towards lifesteal where as dorans doesn't.

    All that said above, I almost always start dorans unless there is a heavier poke comp bot that I would have a hard time killing. Dorans allows me to kill poke comps if my support is engagey. Longsword is opted in favor on heroes that are high range and strong at disengaging or harassing efficiently from a distance to thwart an engage. Caitlyn and Ashe come to mind. Red pot is opted for only on early game champions like Draven who require an early kill to scale faster and better than the opposing lane.

    I can answer more specific questions if you PM me them, or simply think tank the role on skype or something.

     

    Doublelift is a moron, AD carries will never shift from this game, however the archetype of 2v2ing bot lane may. You could see ADCs going top 2v1 and other like strategies, but removing the role entirely is simply inefficient from a team fight standpoint. Games cannot be decided in 20 minutes and APs can't fulfill the role of ADC, neither can bruisers.

  • #4

    Sorry, but I can never agree that passive is a winning mentality or play style. I am not saying you go balls to the wall every single time you see an enemy. I am saying when you have a chance to exploit your opponent you do so every single time, HARD. That is playing aggressively. Punishing any and all mistakes. this typically starts with trading and snowballs from there. It's really that simple, but it builds into huge advantages.

  • #5

    Passive adc's sit in their own world mindlessly farming for 20 mins while top or mid is getting destroyed. When they eventually lose the tower to a 4 man gank, and they WILL lose it first cuz ANYONE with a giants belt gives 0 fuckz about tower shots, they be all like (YO WHO FED J4 WTF. REPORT ALL MY TEAM PLZ.) and LOSE.

    If you can get 340 cs in 30 mins then TEACH ME YOUR WAYS! O SAVIOUR OF THE BADS, KING OF THE NOOBS. Otherwise, to keep your team even and morale high, you better intend to murder the enemy right out the gates.

  • #6

    CS is the key to every lane, getting objectives is the key to winning every game.

    Ide say the correct mind set is to always be farming until you see an opportunity to make a play for an objective. The better you get at the game, the better you will be at jumping on or creating those opportunities. Just always remember, time is a luxery

    Last edited by DuskSC2: 3/8/2013 8:55:20 AM
  • #7

    Okay I shouldn't have said that. I'm a fan of passive playstyle, hence why I want to play Vayne and Kog'maw, and some of my favorite other champions are Nasus and Karthus. However if I need to learn how to be aggressive, I will. I doubt I'll pick up Caitlyn or Ezreal, but someone like Quinn/Draven I could possibly go for. Maybe Graves too since I own him as well. I'm not sure if I should go play Corki anymore though. I feel that with his passive nerfs he's fallen off.

    Last edited by RtMbot: 3/8/2013 9:51:08 AM
  • #8

    Quote from RtMbot »

    Okay I shouldn't have said that. I'm a fan of passive playstyle, hence why I want to play Vayne and Kog'maw, and some of my favorite other champions are Nasus and Karthus. However if I need to learn how to be aggressive, I will. I doubt I'll pick up Caitlyn or Ezreal, but someone like Quinn/Draven I could possibly go for. Maybe Graves too since I own him as well. I'm not sure if I should go play Corki anymore though. I feel that with his passive nerfs he's fallen off.


    Just learn Tristana. She'll teach you to be aggressive and how to trade effectively. Also, she scales just as hard as Vayne/Kog'Maw.

    I still think you are not quite understanding what I am saying about passivity though. Kog'Maw doesn't need to be played 'passively', no champion does! I am basically saying that if you are playing passively you are not playing to win and you are probably just not good enough to play aggressively. In order to play a hyper carry like Kog'Maw effectively, you must know exactly when and in what situations you are stronger than your opponents (lvl6 for an obvious example) and immediately capitalise on it.

  • #9

    A few basic suggestions...

    If you're not already, take Barrier over Ignite. Especially when playing champions like Vayne and Kog'maw, your job - both in lane and elsewhere - is to not die first, and push out the deeps second.

    Always use attack-move. Never use actual attack, it can and will get you killed.

    Let your support dictate your aggression. Rather than poking yourself, let your support know that you'll go in and poke/dive when he does. This will start giving you a good idea of when it is safe to do things, as well as a better idea of how to play with different sorts of supports.

    Learn to counter-hit. Not such a big deal on Vayne, but with Kog'maw you can auto your opponent immediately after they attack for a last hit to deal damage while being entirely safe.

    If your support isn't brush warding, do not be afraid to grab a ward or two for early laning. You need to know where the opposing support is at all times or, in many cases, you simply won't be able to go in for CS.

    There are a ton of mechanical things you can practice in bot games, like getting all the CS, but I'd advise starting with the above and going from there.

    Last edited by HPBEggo: 3/8/2013 10:17:22 AM
  • #10

    So speaking about playing aggressively, is Draven even competitively viable?

  • #11

    Quote from RtMbot »

    So speaking about playing aggressively, is Draven even competitively viable?

    Yes. He's been pulled out plenty of times in the LCS. Hell, Hosan has even had the odd respect ban for his Draven.

  • #12

    Quote from sgtcolon »

    Quote from RtMbot »

    So speaking about playing aggressively, is Draven even competitively viable?

    Yes. He's been pulled out plenty of times in the LCS. Hell, Hosan has even had the odd respect ban for his Draven.


    I was actually going to talk about imaqtpie, but yeah. Draven tends to win lane HARD.

  • #13

    I think people have different conceptions of "passive" and "aggressive"

    Passive is doing nothing but sitting back and farming, without much harassment, no matter what

    Aggressive is going after kills and trades, without regard to map awareness of cs

    You should play neither passively nor aggressively, but smartly. Sit back and farm--but keep and eye on your opponent, and trade with them when you see a chance that they can't retaliate or you will win the trade. Also make sure to keep and eye on your support and follow his lead. (After all, its his job to look for openings to attack the enemy, and he doesn't want to worry about csing and whatnot.)

    Just keep this stuff in mind and keep on practicing and focusing on it. Work on csing, keeping map awareness, and looking for opportunities to trade/harass. (One simple tip is to watch your minions as well as the enemy minions; you should be able to tell when your enemy is going to come in to last hit, so you should be able to get in an autoattack on them.)

    Your analysis about Vayne and Kog'maw seem pretty accurate. They don't have the best laning phases, but make up for it with their lategame. However, Kog has no mobility, and even though Vayne has some mobility and cc she is still extremely squishy, and can easily be cc+bursted. Honestly, they probably aren't the best picks for solo-queue. Kog really needs/wants a team that is going to protect him, and while Vayne can fend for herself a bit better she still has to rely on her teammates being able to drag the game long enough for her to reach critical mass.

    If you want to get better at trading and harassing, Ezreal and/or Caitlyn might be good choices. They can both harass/poke well, and are both pretty safe. As someone else mentioned, you can also try Tristana; she isn't easy-mode harassing like Ez or Cait, but she's safer (with her W and R) and scales hard into lategame.

    About items, VVinrar (I think) did a post relatively recently about AD itemization. He found that for 2k gold, double doran's + vamp was actually the least effective build, so staying off them might be a good idea. (Although, if you're playing someone like Vayne, you're looking more for staying/farming power than damage at that point, so you need to keep that sort of thing in mind...)


    You can also try playing support. This way you can watch the lane, and focus on opportunities to trade without having to worry about csing and whatnot. (Don't just look out for opportunities where you can initiate a trade, but also for opportunities where your ADC could've gotten a free autoattack or ability on the enemy.)

    Last edited by Bad_Player: 3/9/2013 12:28:18 AM
  • #14

    I can play all roles in lol at gold level but i dont play adc almost never . I think your problem lies in the support and adc you pick , if you want to play ADC just play the easiest or safest ones and my sugestion is Graves and Miss Fortune . Supports like Taric or alistar will make your lane really easy and they will set up kills for you easy, Taric is probably the best for solo cause stun never misses and has a nice aura for you to take more punishment besides its noobproof ,almost everyone can play him. Graves is by far the easiest to play and has everything an ADC needs , if graves had the Cait range he would be banned all games . Miss Fortune is also a great pick cause lets be real , if u can hit 4 guys with your ulti before you die you already did more than enough most of the times.
    Solo queue is hard for the adc cause he has to play with someone he doesnt know and he probably will not be in sync also in teamfights on lower elos everyone goes for the adc leaving sometimes both adcs unprotected and nobody helps you . Vayne and kog are the worst possible picks for solo queue cause they die too fast and too furious, and vayne gets outranged and outdamaged by almost any adc , if your vayne playing vs a Graves/taric , Cait/taric you pretty much just lost the lane in team select.

    Try tristana too its one of the best late game and actually outranges a vayne and has much more escapes (ult and rocket jump) . Whats your league ?

     

  • #15

    Quote from BadPlayer6 »

    I think people have different conceptions of "passive" and "aggressive"

    Passive is doing nothing but sitting back and farming, without much harassment, no matter what

    Aggressive is going after kills and trades, without regard to map awareness of cs

    You are right, people clearly use the terms to mean quite different things. That's not a bad definition of passive in some ways, but it goes further, such as people backing after won team fights because they have low HP instead of taking objectives. It's a state of mind and it's a losing one. Your definition of aggressive is just a bad player... Playing smartly as you put it is more apt, but if you break it down a bit you can see that this just means always making good decisions. So, how can you consistently make good decisions? You can learn by being in similar situations and working out the best course of action. You can make sure you have knowledge of all the variables you need to take into account. E.g. How much damage do you do? What about your enemies? Keep wards up, so you have knowledge of enemy movements etc. Of course you also need to be good enough mechanically to pull off whatever you want to do.

    I guess what I am saying is that you should always have an aggressive mindset. Look for weaknesses and exploit them etc. However, you need to be smart enough to know when you can and can not do something. I still feel that a 'passive play-style' is something there is less and less room for in League.

  • #16

    items, VVinrar (I think) did a post relatively recently about AD itemization. He found that for 2k gold, double doran's + vamp was actually the least effective build, so staying off them might be a good idea. (Although, if you're playing someone like Vayne, you're looking more for staying/farming power than damage at that point, so you need to keep that sort of thing in mind...)

     

    that post was horribly flawed, it left several mathematical component completely out. Mainly health, life steal, spells, and ad scalings. The entire premise was, 2 adc's dont use any spells and just stand there auto attacking a third party target with a set health value

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