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Gold+ forum is a discrimination of players

  • #103

    There is very much still room for players that are not gold to post information. 

    Everyone has access to the game and has their own opinions to express.  A diamond player might state something that is true at diamond, but then a bronze player makes a statement that is contradictory, but just as true but at bronze.  In some ways, Diamond level strategies mean nothing to a bronze player.  The game is different at different skill levels.   

    "A sword doesn't have to have a fine lineage, it just has to be sharp" ~Luca Blight, Suikoden 2

  • #104

    Quote from Ak3mi91 »

    Quote from CoolRoot »

    Quote from HelplessKitten »

    I hate to be the asshole here, but you are exactly correct in saying you would be degraded to a 2nd class forum user. Because that is what you are. You cannot possibly contribute the same level of value to a conversation that someone of a higher rating can, and if you can, then get a higher rating and prove it.

    Conversational skills, intellect, game knowledge, analytical skill etc =/= rating. 

    Best

    Unranked scrub


    I understand your point(and D00meriksen's) and I can partially agree with you, but you forgot that LoL isn't something binary. There is a huge room for experience and simply instinct. I always consider other people opinions despite their rating(if they are discussing on some level, I ignore "I'm right, because I say so" guys), but you have to face the fact that your analytics may lack something if you have only numbers and didn't actually check your theory in proper enviroment.

    You may think that X will work, because in theory you are 100% right, but in reality there is another factor Y in higher ranked games, which makes your theory wrong. And you couldn't predict that, because you have never seen factor Y. On your level people play differently and some things are different, so you simply may not see the whole picture.

    What you say does have its merit and I agree with you. It's admirable, that you don't look down onto us unranked players. However, it is possible to achieve a high rating without a deep understanding of the game. So there are unranked players who know what they are talking about and there are high rated players who don't have a clue. I understand that both categories of players are minorities.

     

    You have a lot of Diamond players who really know what they are talking about.

    Then you have those guys, who only play split-push Tron-da-müre and get to high rating with it. They know nothing about strategy, correct calls or team fighting at all. In 55% of all cases their strategy works, because they are very experienced with Tryndamere and their opponent falls for some kind of cheese strategy. Tryndamere is not even the only hero who can do that. Riven is the goddess of level 2 cheese.

    Then you have those notorious ragers who don't contribute anything constructive, but are allowed to post in the new forums regardless. (assault_sloth is gold for example).

    Then you have creative players like QualityPlayer and DruidDroid, who find something super broken and "cheat" themselves to Diamond I. QualityPlayer fell back to gold after AP Tryndamere got nerfed and Druiddroid is at 4 win 11 losses with his proxy Singed this week.

    Then you have average players like Sky, who win their games by being a positive leader and letting their team carry them.

    What I want to say is, that not all high rated players are necessarily experienced in the game and ragers (=unconstructive posters) can be found across all ratings.

    Like my posts? Check out my youtube channel. Woo! Exciting!

  • #105

    Quote from D00meriksen» 

    ...
    Then you have those notorious ragers who don't contribute anything constructive, but are allowed to post in the new forums regardless. (assault_sloth is gold for example).
    ...

    I would change the gold+ into plat+, that would solve some of the problems you mentioned imo.

  • #106

    Quote from Ak3mi91»

    (quoting me here)


    I understand your point(and D00meriksen's) and I can partially agree with you, but you forgot that LoL isn't something binary. There is a huge room for experience and simply instinct. I always consider other people opinions despite their rating(if they are discussing on some level, I ignore "I'm right, because I say so" guys), but you have to face the fact that your analytics may lack something if you have only numbers and didn't actually check your theory in proper enviroment.

    You may think that X will work, because in theory you are 100% right, but in reality there is another factor Y in higher ranked games, which makes your theory wrong. And you couldn't predict that, because you have never seen factor Y. On your level people play differently and some things are different, so you simply may not see the whole picture.

    Keyword "may". A good analysis applies theory to reality. I watch the LCS, at least occasionally (and groan at the analysis and attentiveness of the casters, as i assume many do) so i have some familiarity about what high level games look like. Do i understand them perfectly? Heeell no. Does the average gold 5 player? Well...

    You are correct that i don't have the potential to really try things out myself, so there is always the risk that i miss out on something. I give you that. My analysis is probably quite often irrelevant at challenger and diamond. And if this was a diamond only thing, i wouldn't complain, 'cause those guys *are* on a different level. Gold 5 is not, really.

    You assume that my analysis is shallow because i don't play ranked. The same goes for the suggested gold+ forum. I may be stupid, in fact the risk of me being stupid is probably much greater than the risk of a gold+ player being so. But i may also not be. System doesn't care. To the system i'm just an

    Unranked Scrub.

    (cries)

    (best)

    (and sorry for double posting)

    Last edited by CoolRoot: 7/17/2013 7:40:20 AM
  • #107

    Yep, there are many people, who don't know what they are doing. It applies to both groups, but I think that the whole point of this gold+ forum is the fact that there are less such players the higher elo you are.

     

    IGN: Ak3mi91 (EUNE)

  • #108

    Quote from toughpotato »

    Quote from D00meriksen» 

    ...
    Then you have those notorious ragers who don't contribute anything constructive, but are allowed to post in the new forums regardless. (assault_sloth is gold for example).
    ...

    I would change the gold+ into plat+, that would solve some of the problems you mentioned imo.


    Agree

    Edit: Sorry for double-posting

    Last edited by Ak3mi91: 7/17/2013 7:39:51 AM

    IGN: Ak3mi91 (EUNE)

  • #109

    Let us get a few things straight: 

    -Riot has implemented the ranking system as we know it. The company that made the game has decided to reward players that achieve Gold+ status with a special reward (e.g Victorious Jarvan IV/Janna skins) by the end of the season. So in case you are wondering why gold and not platinum, this is your answer. Riot has established a boundary as to whom is considered a higher level player and who isn't. ROG is merely adopting Riot's way of thinking. Recently I was looking around, checking player statistics and I found this: http://www.lolsummoners.com/stats/rankings/euw (There is one for every region). I don't know how valid that site is but as you can see Gold+ players make up about 13% (combined) of the current playerbase. Is that too much to be considered an elite? Probably. Is it too much to be considered above average/higher level? Definitely not. 

    -Is Gold an achievement? Imho, Yes it is. If you start climbing a bit and you start playing against higher-Gold/lower-Plats you will realize that there is a noticeable gap in player skill/awareness/knowledge of the game mechanics when compared to higher-Silver/lower-Gold. But then again the same logic applies (but on a smaller scale) to higher-plat/lower-diamond when compared to higher-diamond/challenger etc. 

    -Are all lower Gold players better than higher Silver players? No, certainly not. But then again MMR exists for that reason. Even if you are Gold V, poor performance and a losing streak = low MMR  and that means that matchmaking will place you with players of your own caliber. 

    -Do all players that achieve Gold deserve to be there? In general the answer is yes (unless of course they got boosted, but that is a whole new story and from what I've read Riot is looking to find ways to punish Elo Boosters and their customers). The ranking system is way less random and luck based than its predecessor (Season 2). The fact that you have to literally climb your way out of the Silver I/Gold I/ Platinum I divisions feels way more rewarding and deserving to the players that actually achieve it. Is there room for improvement to the current system? Imho YES, there is a great deal of things that can be improved in the current ranking system (e.g Premades and how they mess with matchmaking, random matchmaking during promo series, and finally ENOUGH with the hidden ELO). HOWEVER (and that goes mostly to Bronze/Silver players) stop thinking that the system and/or the community are the only  reasons why you're stuck in this "Elohell". Your current League reflects more or less your current skill level. 

    To conclude: As for ROG's initiative to make a special Gold+ sub-forum, I don't see why are people making such a big deal out of it. It's not exclusive since everyone has access to read it. You can still read what's written and get valuable advice and info. And if you feel like asking somebody then go ahead and send them a personal message. Most of the times people are polite enough to answer and make a decent conversation with you. Pardon me for my English, it's a second language for me. 

  • #110

    ROG loses me as a user if this goes forward, I want to be able to interact with players better than me which this won't help.

    About the "riot did the same with skins for gold blablabla", that's diferent, that's a reward for achiving gold, what ROG is doing is restricting people from participating in some convrsations..

  • #111

    As a suggestion, can there be some sort of indication in the Recent Post box that a given thread is a gold+ thread? That's usually how I keep up with the forum, and I'd like to know if the thread I'm clicking on is interactive or not (for example, I'm sometimes interested in posting in but almost never interested in just reading a QQ thread, hypothetically speaking).

  • #112

    If gold V is so bad (which it really is) and those guys aren't on a different level then get there, if you understand the game it shouldn't be that hard.

    and I'm sure they're still be thread about this if it was platinum+ or diamond+ (also if it was diamond+ probably no one would ever use it except to call out particular players doing jerk shit or w/e ie. druiddrioid is a dick for prxoying thread etc.)

  • #113

    Quote from aceGG »

    ROG loses me as a user if this goes forward, I want to be able to interact with players better than me which this won't help.

    About the "riot did the same with skins for gold blablabla", that's diferent, that's a reward for achiving gold, what ROG is doing is restricting people from participating in some convrsations..


    If you think gold+ members will only talk/discuss/theorycraft in the gold+ forum from now on then you're very, very wrong.

    Also, no offense, but you've only posted 13 times so far, you're not exactly a well-known RoG regular. Making threats like that won't really affect RoG and it makes you sound angry and immature.

    .

  • #114

    Quote from OuterRaven »

    Quote from aceGG »

    ROG loses me as a user if this goes forward, I want to be able to interact with players better than me which this won't help.

    About the "riot did the same with skins for gold blablabla", that's diferent, that's a reward for achiving gold, what ROG is doing is restricting people from participating in some convrsations..


    If you think gold+ members will only talk/discuss/theorycraft in the gold+ forum from now on then you're very, very wrong.

    Also, no offense, but you've only posted 13 times so far, you're not exactly a well-known RoG regular. Making threats like that won't really affect RoG and it makes you sound angry and immature.

    Starts with one, ends with more than that ;)

  • #115

    Quote from bahamutprime »

    If gold V is so bad (which it really is) and those guys aren't on a different level then get there, if you understand the game it shouldn't be that hard.

    and I'm sure they're still be thread about this if it was platinum+ or diamond+ (also if it was diamond+ probably no one would ever use it except to call out particular players doing jerk shit or w/e ie. druiddrioid is a dick for prxoying thread etc.)

    ...

    I'll repeat myself.

    Skill level =/= game knowledge.

    I'm not saying gold 5 is "bad", I'm saying they are not on a different level, game knowledge-wise compared to most other players. Still, i believe i could probably reach Gold if i tried. I'm unranked, meaning i don't play rankeds at all. I have no idea where i'd place if i started playing them.

    And yeah, there would probably be a thread about it if it was diamond+ too, difference is I wouldn't be commenting in it and I can only really speak for myself in these situations.

    Best

    Unranked scrub

  • #116

    Check

    It works, sry for spam.

    Last edited by Kudakuda: 7/17/2013 10:10:38 AM
  • #117

    Personally I think the system would be more ideal if it were a "linked account" sub-forum allowing for discussion between various ranked players and perhaps even unranked. Gold players can learn a lot from bronze, silver and unranked players, in the same way a teacher can learn a lot from answering questions posed by children that they had not previously thought about in depth. 

    If you really want to filter out the posts by gold players. You could just make it so that their posts stand out more. People can decide then whether to ignore things or not themselves.

    Last but not least, I don't really think Gold V+ by itself does not really mean much at all, considering there will be many people that have can attain this through specialised knowledge of certain positions and roles but completely fail in others. For example, I know a fair amount about fiddlesticks and support to the extent that it's brought me to promotional matches in Gold V. However, my advice on adc-top lane and more unusual junglers would be extremely limited and purely theoretical, not being as useful as a Silver II-I player who has spent all their time playing that position.

  • #118

    So, there's a fair few things floating about right now, but at least people are moving towards being constructive.

    A few points.

    1. As Molster has said, the new forum originally had the bar set higher. I have no idea what discussion went into it, but my guess is that it was changed from 'anyone can make a thread but only high ELO can reply' to 'full discussion' at around the same time as the ELO change. Open up the ranking whilst making sure that the forum remains relevant, since if anyone can throw a thread in there then the forum has less of a differentiation from (for example) Ask A Pro.

    2. I disagree, and have always disagreed, that ranking is a signifier of the ability to give meaningful analysis of the game. I've been posting here for a good while now, been writing articles and so on, running numbers and going through theory. I have never stepped out of Silver, and yet it's pretty rare I get someone telling me I'm wrong and giving a good argument in support of that. Granted, it happens, but not often.The point I'm trying to make being that I don't necessarily agree with the rationale, but also that I don't think that's the aim. RoG are not trying to say 'people below X ranking don't know jack'. I believe it's the inverse of that; they're saying 'people above X ranking are much more likely to know what they're talking about', and setting that as the filter.

    3. What someone mentioned regarding motivation is very true. I've never seen a reason to pursue ranked, beyond a small part of me that wants the shiny border for self-legitimization. This does give me a greater sense of motivation, I have to admit, although I'm unsure if I'd link my account even if I made Diamond (which, I hasten to add, isn't gonna happen).

    4. Please, please stop suggesting that the rest of the forums will become barren and/or bereft of higher-skilled players. The very worst that will happen - the absolute worst - is that the big influx of higher-skilled posters we've seen since the announcement will dry up. In which case you'll be left with our previous quotient of high-skilled players, who have all been posting long enough that they're not going to confine themselves to a single area.

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #119

    Something I have read here (and in other forums as well) that bothers me greatly and makes me see how little some people know about the game: "Gold  is no different than Silver" (most of the time coming from people that have never touched Gold). I have spent over 300 games (in S2 and S3) in the Silver range and around the same in Gold. The difference is VERY noticeable (if you are Diamond, they will appear the same, as you are much better than them). I'm currently at Gold IV in my second promotion matches and in no way am I saying I'm good, but while I was at Silver, I could first pick Nasus top and roll without much interaction with my team. I can no longer do that and I have to pick less easy - to - counter champions.

    My point, while Ranking =/= Skill in all cases, more often than not it holds true.

  • #120

    It's fair discrimination.

    As this site is all about giving people solid advice, it is best if there exist places where more of the advice given is good advice. Better players generally give better advice. Hence, gold-only threads should, on average, have a higher density of good advice than other threads.

    Can't say I love it, can't say I hate it, but I see why they did it and ultimately don't really care one way or the other all that much.

  • #121

     i still think it should be plat+ alot of gold players arnt that smart in decsion making

  • #122

    Quote from Sanitarium »

    Let us get a few things straight: 

    -Riot has implemented the ranking system as we know it. The company that made the game has decided to reward players that achieve Gold+ status with a special reward (e.g Victorious Jarvan IV/Janna skins) by the end of the season. So in case you are wondering why gold and not platinum, this is your answer. Riot has established a boundary as to whom is considered a higher level player and who isn't. ROG is merely adopting Riot's way of thinking. Recently I was looking around, checking player statistics and I found this: http://www.lolsummoners.com/stats/rankings/euw (There is one for every region). I don't know how valid that site is but as you can see Gold+ players make up about 13% (combined) of the current playerbase. Is that too much to be considered an elite? Probably. Is it too much to be considered above average/higher level? Definitely not. 

    -Is Gold an achievement? Imho, Yes it is. If you start climbing a bit and you start playing against higher-Gold/lower-Plats you will realize that there is a noticeable gap in player skill/awareness/knowledge of the game mechanics when compared to higher-Silver/lower-Gold. But then again the same logic applies (but on a smaller scale) to higher-plat/lower-diamond when compared to higher-diamond/challenger etc. 

    -Are all lower Gold players better than higher Silver players? No, certainly not. But then again MMR exists for that reason. Even if you are Gold V, poor performance and a losing streak = low MMR  and that means that matchmaking will place you with players of your own caliber. 

    -Do all players that achieve Gold deserve to be there? In general the answer is yes (unless of course they got boosted, but that is a whole new story and from what I've read Riot is looking to find ways to punish Elo Boosters and their customers). The ranking system is way less random and luck based than its predecessor (Season 2). The fact that you have to literally climb your way out of the Silver I/Gold I/ Platinum I divisions feels way more rewarding and deserving to the players that actually achieve it. Is there room for improvement to the current system? Imho YES, there is a great deal of things that can be improved in the current ranking system (e.g Premades and how they mess with matchmaking, random matchmaking during promo series, and finally ENOUGH with the hidden ELO). HOWEVER (and that goes mostly to Bronze/Silver players) stop thinking that the system and/or the community are the only  reasons why you're stuck in this "Elohell". Your current League reflects more or less your current skill level. 

    To conclude: As for ROG's initiative to make a special Gold+ sub-forum, I don't see why are people making such a big deal out of it. It's not exclusive since everyone has access to read it. You can still read what's written and get valuable advice and info. And if you feel like asking somebody then go ahead and send them a personal message. Most of the times people are polite enough to answer and make a decent conversation with you. Pardon me for my English, it's a second language for me. 

    This pretty much.

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