This thread was Locked by Dankaw.

Support doesn't need to follow ADC all the time

  • #1

    Before reading note it's for soloq, can't really say about competitive play because i don't watch it.

    This is clip Saintvicious made yesterday. I watched right now to catch up with Shyv changes and how she's played right now (at least how SV plays her). You can see here many fail smites so if you got time check it out, but i'm not here to just advertise a video.

    If you watched it, you've seen Janna a lot out there. When lane phase was over, she was nearby SV whenever he was going to make a plays and destroy enemies to assist him or cover his ass if things went wrong. Kog was left alone farming and almost nobody really cared about him. Now you may say - what the hell, that's support's job to cover their carry and don't let him die. I'm saying NOPE.

    You are helping people who needs it. ADC is important addition to your team and needs to be farmed to be useful, so here you are to don't let him die or ńet him few kills. Later, when lane phase is over you are free to help anyone. Janna in the video found strong links in her team and followed them, assisting them in every way she could. That way, she was much more useful than covering Kog farming. He (Kog) may have needed help few times, but 1 death is a good trade for destroying all the enemy team. Surely, if your ADC is the strong link like SV or TF was, i would recommend to stick to him but in this case - Kog was a dummy.

    In late game where your ADC is finally fed and most useful, still assist that strong player as much as you can. BUT whenever your carry needs your help - he takes priority. Stonewall was writing about finding your anchor not long ago, what i described is pretty much same thing but for support instead of jungle.

    Summary: In mid game find the strongest player and try to assist him as much, so he can carry games for you. In late game continue to do that while providing enough peeling for your carry. Be where you will be most useful.

    TL;DR - Be a support, not ADC bitch.

    Last edited by Dankaw: 7/17/2013 7:45:16 AM
  • #2

    Cool I just watched this video too. Thanks for the analysis.

    edit: then again janna has amazing move speed so its easy for her to get arround the map and keep pressure. Wouldnt say the exact same thing for other supports though.

    Last edited by omgrckr: 7/17/2013 8:20:09 AM
  • #3

    I forgot to mention it's for soloq, also added TL;DR for lazy people.

  • #4

    so I have a quick question about this, Dankaw. I read that article you were talking about, of stonewall made a article a while back on Junglers having to chose when/what to anchor and triage and he explained his reasoning for junglers, I was wondering if you could explain more on how it could be applied as a support. I help my team as much as I can, and when laning's done I will roam to help the rest of my team fight, but I know I'm guilty of having really bad and really rude ADC's, and there's times where I'll just abandon them and stick to the top or ap carry (I know I'm not perfect myself, being a baddie in silver, but sometimes there's some calls and plays I'll see adc's do that makes me question them). But I understand that as ADC's, they have that late game that really powerful and useful. So the point I want to understand is when is it ok to let a few bad plays slide and still keep helping your adc in mid/late game, and when/if you should just completely triage your adc in favor of that fed bruiser, mid, or jungler?

  • #5

    Well, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to suggest something like that to people. Some may not understand it the way it should be understood. There are already many "support mains", who are standing behind ad carry all the time, recalling in front of the other lane, so they know that your ADC is now 1v2 or simply leaving him to ward in the worst possible moment.

    IGN: Ak3mi91 (EUNE)

  • #6

    when i play support, i'll usually start roaming when the bot tower falls, either our or theirs and let the adc get some solo exp, that is if i deem him worthy, i'll ward up the enemy jungle or our jungle depending, and roam mid or follow the jungler for some extra ganking power, if i see people heading bot i'll ping my adc and head botlane

  • #7

    I think I'm in Arakaims camp.  I'm familiar wih the concept.  The question I have is when to do so. 

    In midgame, as long as there is ward coverage and enough map pressure to prevent a huge gank, I'm happy to leave an adc alone on bot to farm it up. 

    Earlier than that, I'm happy to support a jungle play onto the near enemy buff as long as I think my adc can cope alone for the time required.  And if I've taken on the job of warding mid for my midlaner, and if I'm playing a hard initiate support like thresh or leona, it would be rude not to try a gank while i was there.

    I'll do these things even with a good adc.  But to cut an adc off entirely?  I'm never sure when or if to do that. 

     

     

  • #8

    Kog Maw shall just get wards around himself (prolly Janna shall've warded him around) and farm. That's really the case, as ADC you need to farm but ur support doesn't need to be there. Dankaw is 100% right and it's a base of good game. For example, if youre a blitz support you better just go and make grab-plays than to babysit your ADC bot. You can grab minions there for 5 mins straight and this contributes nothing to the team. You gain gold by jerking around and you can be jerking around the ppl that do usefull things that ends in nice plays rather than jerk around the carry which can be ganked once but nothing will come out of it for real unless the enemy can abuse it. 

    Of course, it's all about when LANING ends. The towers have falled and there's nothing to guard there. Not for when you need to defend that t1 tower.

    +1 Dankaw again

    Last edited by Shadeful: 7/17/2013 8:56:17 AM
  • #9

    Quote from Arakaim »

    so I have a quick question about this, Dankaw. I read that article you were talking about, of stonewall made a article a while back on Junglers having to chose when/what to anchor and triage and he explained his reasoning for junglers, I was wondering if you could explain more on how it could be applied as a support. I help my team as much as I can, and when laning's done I will roam to help the rest of my team fight, but I know I'm guilty of having really bad and really rude ADC's, and there's times where I'll just abandon them and stick to the top or ap carry (I know I'm not perfect myself, being a baddie in silver, but sometimes there's some calls and plays I'll see adc's do that makes me question them). But I understand that as ADC's, they have that late game that really powerful and useful. So the point I want to understand is when is it ok to let a few bad plays slide and still keep helping your adc in mid/late game, and when/if you should just completely triage your adc in favor of that fed bruiser, mid, or jungler?

    I think it really comes down to experience. Sometimes its better to let your ADC just farm one lane and keep him warded, but stick to some other player. Some things you need to consider are :

    • How good is the ADC player? Can you make plays isf you stick to him, or is he not the best player and cannot use your support well etc.
    • How safe is your ADC, is he a lategame carry or rather a early game beast
    • Towers / dragon situation
    • Your supportive abilities and in which way can you help which member of the team

    As an example : If i play Janna with a safe ADC ( maybe blue EZ) and we have killed bot turret + ours is strill up and dragon is not available atm, i often ward Ezreal up and watch minimap for him ( and ping him back etc.). He can freefarm bottom lane then and i can help my team. I would be no use on his side because if he is 1v1 vs the enemy ADC he can get away easily ( or just farm up) , if we are 2v1 we would have a hard time actually killing the enemy ADC because blue EZ needs time to ramp up and Janna is not the best Support for setting up kills, and if it is 1v2 he still can get away easily. I also would put myself at risk, if the enemy would gank me and EZ. He is safe, i am realtivly slow and might get caught.

    It is really hard to give guidelines you can follow. It really comes down to experience, judging both teams / ADC´s champions and skill of the players + the use of a freefarm for ADC vs having him with the team vs extended laning phase.

    Last edited by mizary2102: 7/17/2013 8:57:20 AM
  • #10

    Ok, that all helps alot! thanks :D

  • #11

    Haven't watched the video, but Janna can cover his ass by warding and kog can by positioning correctly, when Janna is away. But usually its a lot more worth it to stick with your adc and prevent him from dying. 

    It probably was better just to ward for kog and  let him afk farm safely and go help shyv make plays.

  • #12

    This is how I play support and it got me to gold in ~40 games with a great w:l despite just picking up the game very recently. I had about 100 games of HoN experience before league and mained support there, so I play the same way I played in HoN.  I win the lane, then I leave my adc alone and tell them to freeze the lane near our tower where I have given them plenty of ward coverage and I only come back if I see a gank on the way.  

    I get trolled pretty often for playing this way, unfortunately. "SUPPPORT LEFT LANE N NEVR CAME BACK GG WE LOSE" after someone walks through my wards and adc ignores pings.  There is absolutely NO REASON for the support to sit in a lane that you've already won.  Go win other lanes.

  • #13

    An ADC with no Support is like an artillery gun with no crew.

    A Support with no ADC is like a crew with gun.

    Rather that leaving them to farm, convince them to put pressure on other lanes with you.

    They can't do damage without your peel. You can't do damage without them. Together you are a Massive damage, Massive CC, High Survivability beast.

    You are two sides of the same coin. A Team. A squad. Whatever you want to call it. You will win far more games sticking together than you will providing your CC to help a Gank.Your ADC needs to be your best buddy, Together, you win the game. The other lanes are just filler.

    Don't underestimate camaraderie. It is far more important than any other aspect of the game.

    I'm 20CS down? IDGAF, I got my Thresh.

  • #14

    an ADC without farm is like a mustang gt without a engine, an adc needs farm, items and exp to stay relavant, and ofc you're going to peel for your adc, but that's in team fights, if the adc is farming safe in a lane, theres no point being there looking pretty when you could help the rest of your team 

  • #15

    I remember this one time where I was playing support nunu in soloq and the ezreal started flaming me. I just walked off and supported a snowballing Kassidin in mid. The ezreal did not like that at all :P

  • #16

    The point is not to let the ADC wander off on his own and do whatever. The point is to leave him freefarm a lane / the jungle / push SAFE outer turrets alone or vs only the enemy ADC, while you ( the support) support the rest of the team, because you would not really help your ADC too much. Later, when the ADC is farmed and can carry actually, you should stick to him almost always.

  • #17

    A support should try to be everywhere at once. If there is nobody in bottom lane facing your carry, then leave him alone and help mid/jungle. If there is nobody in mid at all and minions at the tower, clear the wave.

    But if the enemy ADC is in bot lane and isn't tower-hugging, you should be there to zone him. If both enemy ADC and support are in bot lane and your carry is trying to CS, you need to be there for that too.

    What a support should avoid doing is just sitting in a bush soaking XP. As long as you're helping someone on your team or hindering someone on the enemy team, you're on the right track.

     

  • #18

    Quote from gar3n »

    I remember this one time where I was playing support nunu in soloq and the ezreal started flaming me. I just walked off and supported a snowballing Kassidin in mid. The ezreal did not like that at all :P

    I've had to do that sort of thing many times. If your carry is being annoying or making bad plays, you're better off leaving him alone for a while. Chances are that being 1v2 will make him play more carefully, and you might be able to help out elsewhere.

     

  • #19

    If the enemy is weak or the ADC is boss, yeah I'll do some roaming as a support.  But at my rating, doing that is just asking for failure.  What happens most of the time when I'm ADC and a support wonders off, often too early in the game, the enemy gains bush control and I get forced to either miss a couple waves of cs or get harassed and maybe dove trying to get the minions.   Can't let the ADC alone for too long or they'll take advantage of it, some more quickly than others.  God forbid the enemy support walks away from an adc against a lane like Draven/Thresh.

    Negativity grants positive results. LoL logic.

    I Curse a lot.  Curse. Get it. Hue.

  • #20

    With mobile supports like Sona and Janna it's probably best to stick with your ADC throughout the lane phase, but then after that you can use your speed to ward in dangerous places and get out easily. Then you can focus on helping people who are getting objectives or if they are getting pressured.

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