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[Theorycrafting] Doran's item changes - Buff or Nerf?

  • #1

    Hi guys. Quickly running the numbers to compare the Doran's items pre- and post- PBE changes.

    Doran's Blade

    The change

    -3% Lifesteal

    +5 healing per hit

    The numbers

    First, let's find where the two are equal. For 3% lifesteal to equal 5 healing from a single hit, damage must equal 5/0.03 = 166.6 damage.

    Therefore, before armour mitigation, with less than 167 AD you will be gaining more health per hit from new Doran's Blade. But what about after armour?

    Note : All armour values are given before penetration

    0 armour - <167 AD for new blade to win.

    15 armour (initial armour of siege minion) - 166.6/0.8696 = <192 AD for new blade to win.

    44.9 armour (Ashe, level 6 with armour seals) - 166.6/0.6901 = <242 AD for new blade to win.

    118.25 armour (Malphite, level 11, armour seals, armour mastery, glacial shroud) - 166.6/0.4582 = <364 AD for new blade to win

     

    So, as we can see, this is a definite early game buff. Not only does the new Doran's Blade return more health per hit on ANYTHING until 167 AD (for reference this is the equivalent of Ashe with a BF Sword and Pickaxe plus masteries and Quints/marks), but its effectiveness is linear rather than being reduced by armour.

    Note that I have assumed you're building AD for simplicity; you do have the chance of an errant crit returning more health with the older doran's blade.

    Conclusion : BUFF!

     

    Doran's Ring

    The change

    -2 mana per 5

    +5 mana per kill

    The numbers

    Nice easy one. If you've lost 2 mana per 5, to even this out you'll need to kill one creep every 12.5 seconds (5/2 * 5).

    Now, for reference, creep waves spawn every 30 seconds. A siege minion spawns every third wave (until 35 minutes, but who really worries about doran's ring regen past 35 minutes?); this gives us an average creep spawn time of 21/90 = 0.233333 seconds, or one creep every 4.285 seconds.

    As such, you will need to kill approximately every third creep per wave to break even in terms of mana regen. If you're not doing this, you're either a support or you REALLY need to work on your cs.

    The change does go beyond this however. Firstly, when you're not last hitting (i.e. you're not in lane, perhaps roaming to gank or dancing at dragon) you don't receive this benefit; secondly, I've seen some AP junglers start with a doran's ring - you will be killing creeps much less frequently in the jungle, since there are far fewer targets, and are very unlikely to meet the requirement of one kill every 4 seconds.

    However, despite these limitations, I would argue that it's worth it. You'll want the mana regen most while you're in lane, and assuming you manage to kill 75% of creeps in your lane you're looking at more than 2 mana per 5 more than you had before.

    Conclusion : BUFF!

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #2

    Doran's Shield

    The change

    -20 health

    -5 armour

    -3 health regen

    +6 damage reduction from champion autoattacks

    The numbers

    It is very difficult to calculate the change here, because armour saw a considerable reduction across the board; furthermore, since armour mitigates all physical damage as opposed to just autoattacks, you'll get more use out of armour than flat reduction.

    However, it should also be noted that flat reduction is generally performed after armour modifiers. This means that, combined with armour, this item's passive could be extremely effective against auto-attack oriented champions such as Fiora or Master Yi.

    To run through an example:

    Assume your base armour is 18 and you gain 3.5/level (about average for top laners) and you're using the +6 armour mastery and 13 armour seals.

    Assume your opponent is Fiora (fairly simple to calculate) with AD quints/marks, AD masteries.

    At level 1, Fiora has boots, you have doran's shield. Fiora took Lunge first; she lands two autoattacks during the exchange.

    Lunge damage before armour - (80 + (1.2 * 18.5)) = 102.2

    Old Shield modifier = 0.6601, therefore damage = 67.5 damage.

    New Shield modifier = 0.6872, therefore damage = 70.2 damage.

    Autoattack damage before armour - 2x 57.7 = 115.4

    Old shield modifier = 0.6601, therefore damage = 76.2 damage

    New Shield modifier = 0.6872, therefore damage = 79.3 damage, BUT damage reduction of 6 per hit, = 67.3 damage.

    In this scenario, therefore, you will take 6.2 less damage overall from having the new Doran's Shield.

    However, this is at level 1. As Doran's Shield reduces damage by a flat amount, the lower each incoming damaging hit is the higher the percentage mitigated by it. As such, this makes the effectiveness of the item fluid; as your armour increases its effectiveness increases, while as their AD increases its effectiveness decreases.

    To conclude, though, I would argue that this is an effective nerf. As well as losing armour, the item has lost a considerable chunk of health and HP/5; meanwhile, the new Doran's Shield relies on you gaining armour. Doran's items are meant to be effective early game boosts, and so making one reliant on other items seems counterintuitive.

    Conclusion - NERF!

     

    TL;DR - Ring and Blade have been buffed, Shield has been nerfed.

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #3

    Good post. I was unsure if the new Dorans were good or not but now I can see it perfectly. Thank you.

  • #4

    Do we know if they are 475 g still?

  • #5

    Hm, stupid question, are dorans "stackable"?
    If you get 2/3 dorans shield, some armor, and some health regen, on top of champions that have some sort of "damage reduction" already (such as garen and poppy), you will totally own someone that relies a lot on AA.

    So if it is stackable, then you should reconsider your "nerf" conclusion, because they prolly balanced it according to the fact we could get more than one dorans shield, and purchase armor and health regen/lifesteal/spellvamp to make it even better?

    Last edited by MerryLane: 11/16/2012 9:28:47 PM
  • #6

    I think they are unique, but it does beg the question of whether you could get a sword AND shield now or sword AND ring. Instead of stacking the same type. This seems like it could be a pretty good alternative to Doran's stacking of old.

    Last edited by sgtcolon: 11/16/2012 9:56:26 PM
  • #8

    Quote from sgtcolon »

    Do we know if they are 475 g still?

    yes

  • #9

    Quote from MerryLane »

    Hm, stupid question, are dorans "stackable"?
    If you get 2/3 dorans shield, some armor, and some health regen, on top of champions that have some sort of "damage reduction" already (such as garen and poppy), you will totally own someone that relies a lot on AA.

    So if it is stackable, then you should reconsider your "nerf" conclusion, because they prolly balanced it according to the fact we could get more than one dorans shield, and purchase armor and health regen/lifesteal/spellvamp to make it even better?

     

    I'm not on the PBE, but according to the PBE changes in the RoG post:

    Doran's Blade and Ring have no unique passives. They will stack with themselves and each other.

    Doran's shield's damage reduction is a unique passive. Therefore, only one doran's shield will take effect.

     

    Even if they were stackable, though, I would argue that it would still be a nerf to Doran's Shield as it is now - because Doran's items in general are intended as early game boosts with no late game power. A Doran's item which relies on other items (i.e. which relies on another shield and a bunch of armour/LS) is not an early game boost, and is in fact specifically for later in the game.

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #10

    Good post, thank you for the quick math, i'm too lazy

  • #12

    Did... you just bump a dead thread to plug an unrelated guide? O.o

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #13

    Quote from Bystekhilcar »

    Did... you just bump a dead thread to plug an unrelated guide? O.o


    He did it in like 5-6 threads already.

    EUW : Firion EUN : Teemo ate my pen

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