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S3 Swain, new terror ?

  • #1

    Hi guys !

    I'm coming to you because i can't believe what my eyes are seeing, i want your opinon about Swain in this new season meta, must admit i'm kind of lost here...

    Let's sum up what we have :

    Swains spells :

    Q : single target slow + damage

    W : AoE root

    E : single target dot that increase of 20% all damages coming from Swain

    R : AoE sustained damage ? :D

    Well, let's see the new items :

    <dl><dt>Deathfire Grasp</dt><dd>Item Cost: 2600  Recipe Cost: 975    +80 Ability Power
    UNIQUE Active: Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 15% of their current Health (+5% per 100 Ability Power)with a minimum of 200 damage (60 second cooldown).</dd><dd><dl><dt>Liandry's Torment   Item Cost: 2900  Recipe Cost: 980</dt><dd>+70 Ability Power +200 Health
    UNIQUE Passive - Eyes of Pain: +15 Magic Penetration
    UNIQUE Passive: Dealing spell damage burns enemies for 5% of their current Health as magic damage over 3 seconds. If their movement is impaired, they take double damage from this effect.

    (Half duration for multi-target or periodic effects, 300 max vs. monsters.)</dd><dd></dd><dd>Wait a sec...</dd><dd>New deathfire : +20% magic for all magic damages. How will it works with Swain's E ? I guess it will just lead to an incredible level of damage...</dd><dd>Liandry : WTF ! 5% on Q cause it's a periodic, 2.5% on E, ult stack a 2.5% passive on each raven's hit. If u have swain's E running, +20% ? And if u used deathfire ? 20% with a "little" bonus of 15% already boosted by your E ? add an ignite ? :D Seems pretty strong for me ;(</dd><dd>With abyssal still really strong, RoA still correct, Athene still awesome, same for Zhonya, Rabadon...Is Swain gonna be a lot more stronger than in S2 in your opinion ? How would u itemize him ?</dd></dl></dd></dl>
    Last edited by Xenyce: 12/12/2012 9:14:18 PM
  • #2

    I've had to say this a couple of times recently, but I'll happily reiterate:

    Yes, DFG does synergize amazingly well with Swain's kit. It always has. However, Swain's biggest strength (and frankly the whole reason you take him at all) is his ability to survive. If played properly he can draw the attention of half an enemy team yet walk amongst them, teetering on the precipice, until they die around him. HOWEVER, to reach this point you need defences. A lot of defences. You need some max health (Rod), lots of mana regen (Athene's), and resistances (Abyssal and Hourglass, usually). At this point we're looking at a fifth item - which it's rare to reach - and forced to remember that since we have a lot of AP, Deathcap will be giving us a significant bonus... and more AP means more healing. Alternatively, GA is there to press home the futility of their actions.

     

    Unfortunately this does not leave any scope for DFG. About as far away from Deathcap as you'd go would be Void Staff. Also note that Swain is not a burst caster (though he is a caster who can burst); building DFG is trying to make him into something he's not.

    Side note regarding Liandry's, I've done a complete U-turn in my opinion of the item since its release. I find that although it looks sexy on paper, in practice it simply doesn't do enough damage to be worth picking up, and its effect is barely even noticeable in teamfights or all-in engagements. If you're building a poke comp it can be tasty, but otherwise it synergizes with only a very small number of champions.

    And to finish... I still haven't given Swain the extensive playtest he deserves. I still strongly suspect I want Eleisa's on him for the Chalice multiplier though...

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #3

    definatly agree with bystekchilcar... swains damage is fine... he is not a burst champion. He has awesome sustained damage and sustain. The problem he ever occurs is being burst down. He has very short range and has high sustain. If a champion can burst him down none of his sustain or damage matters, which is why he primarily builds tanky. Roa, abyssal, zhonyas etc. 

    What your saying is like "what if we stack movement speed on hecarim!" or "what if we stack AS on master yi!" The thing is, they are already strong in these points, having more isn't going to make them better. Its overkill. Better to spread the gold in areas they don't necessarily excel at.

  • #4

    Honestly - don't even bother to get DC on Swain until way later, here is how I have been building him:

    RoA, Liandry's, Hourglass, Abyssal - situational 6th item.

    He synergizes so well with Liandry's, especially if your team has an AoE slow.  He basically has it procced on at least 3-4 people per fight.

  • #5

    Maybe a build without RoA would be viable ? Not sure though.

    Last edited by Nash19: 12/13/2012 9:50:25 AM
  • #6

    For Utility, Rylai, Liandra, WoTA. Merc, RoA, Rabadon. You survive, slow, deal decent damage.

    For Damage: RoA, Merc, Rylai, DFG, Rab, Void. You deal damage, you depend on your health.

    All Rounder: RoA, Zhonya, Merc, Abyssal, Rabadon, Athene.

    My favorite: Going Glacial Shroud on top of Chalice and Catalyst. Mid aggressive? No problem. Jungler came in? No problem. Need CDR? No problem.Ult up? Here, let me stay that way for about 2 minutes.

    Merc, Abyssal, Athene, RoA, Frozen Heart, Rabadon. I'm sacrificing spell penetration, for in my experience, maximum trolling. Maybe, just maybe, I can squeeze in Archangel instead of Abyssal. (Since the MR got nerfed and Swain can stack Archangel like a boss now.)

  • #7

    A few things...

    Rylai's/Liandry's is very strong on any champion with a DoT, Swain included. Torment ends up dealing a ton of damage with this, and there's almost no reason to not have both items at some point in the game.

    Spirit Visage is currently pretty solid on Swain, as is Iceborn Gauntlet. If you wanted to replace the Scepter/RoA/Hourglass set-up, this would be the way to go.

    Chalice cannot be ignored in any build.

    If I were to go for Rylai's/Liandry's, I'd most likely get 2 Doran's Rings and Chalice early in lane, and then go for Haunting Guise with Sorcerer's Shoes. From there it's a lot of situational stuff, but endgame build would look something like Athene's/Sorcs/Rylai's/Liandry's/Spirit Visage/Iceborn Gautnlet.

  • #8

    Agree with you that Swain don't really hzve any slot left for a DFG, so much strong item for him...Maybe if your team got an overall high tankiness and lack damage.

    Concerning linadry, i don't know. Like you Bystekhilcar , i am less and less excited by this item, except on few champions and i think swain is part of it. Your spells sinergyse amazingly well with the passive, u grab a little bunch of health and MPen wich is great, because i'm not grabing void a lot.

    RoA seems to me like a must have on Swain; give you all the char needs to work. Even if, with Athene, u don't need so much mana, you will lack a lot of tankiness by skipping RoA. Sure u can rush Rilay, but u will have even less damage, wich might be a problem cause deathcap is not really a rush item on swain for me.

  • #9

    Just to reiterate - Liandry's is not as strong as it seems. Apart from anything, 'current health' is always going to encourage you to think of max health, when in actual fact it'll almost always be much less than that. You're also dealing all your damage via AoE/DoTs, with only one built-in slow. It's an expensive item, and giving you nothing in the way of survivability bar a low-grade health boost.

    As nice as it might seem, you could be spending that gold on a much, much better item.

    Oh, and just as a response to your team having AoE slows : the damage increase for Liandry's only applies *while* the target is slowed, and will drop back to normal the second that slow wears off. Also note that the damage will be recalculated constantly due to your frequent damage procs, meaning any damage the target takes (from any source) reduces the strength of your Liandry's proc immediately.

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #10

    Like I said, Liandry's is only good after you have Rylai's. Even then, the build is not necessarily superior to other builds, it's simply another choice that is worth considering.

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