Kha'Zix' and why I think that rushing Manamune sucks

  • #1

    Hello guys. I want to talk about Kha'Zix today. On Lolking his winrate is 45% right now.

    These are his most popular items:

    1. Black Cleaver (55.69% win rate)
    2. The Bloodthirster (57.04% win rate)
    3. Last Whisper (57.26% win rate)
    4. Muramana (59.33% win rate)
    5. Boots
    6. Probably GA

    Every popular Kha'Zix guide still advices to rush Manamune. Admittedly, Muramana is an insanely powerful item, but if you are playing Kha'Zix as an assassin, you don't need the extra mana. Muramana is also a late game item, while Kha'Zix is a mid game skirmish hero.

    If you are rushing Tear, you are 700g behind. If your champion allows you to avoid harrass, trades and farm from a safe distance, this is fine. Kha'Zix can't do that (anymore).

    Manamune costs 2100g and grants ~40 ad (1000 total mana) upon buying it. For that gold you could have also gotten a B.F. Sword, a Long Sword and a couple of potions. The extra damage allows you to go toe-to-toe with your opponent and is overall more efficient than Manamune, because you won't lose as much CS through getting zoned.

    Another argument would be that Talon is very similiar to Kha'Zix, has worse mana costs and nobody rushes Tear on him!

    What are your opinions? How do you build Kha'Zix?

    Personality type: INTP
    myanimelist: http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Arazen

  • #2

    When I play him the only non-optional items are BT and LW. 

    But I don't main him, so take that as you will. 

  • #3

    I think that the extra mana was core to the old Kha'zix, but I don't evolve W any more. Obviously Muramana is a super strong item to build when I'm focusing on farm rather than roam and murder. As I almost always play him mid lane, I rely on always having the blue buff before each fight, which allows me to follow item paths which don't include extra mana.

    To sum up, muramana or not depends on if you want a late game Kha or a mid game Kha.

  • #4

    Quote from D00meriksen »

    Hello guys. I want to talk about Kha'Zix today. On Lolking his winrate is 45% right now.

    These are his most popular items:

    1. Black Cleaver (55.69% win rate)
    2. The Bloodthirster (57.04% win rate)
    3. Last Whisper (57.26% win rate)
    4. Muramana (59.33% win rate)
    5. Boots
    6. Probably GA

    Every popular Kha'Zix guide still advices to rush Manamune. Admittedly, Muramana is an insanely powerful item, but if you are playing Kha'Zix as an assassin, you don't need the extra mana. Muramana is also a late game item, while Kha'Zix is a mid game skirmish hero.

    If you are rushing Tear, you are 700g behind. If your champion allows you to avoid harrass, trades and farm from a safe distance, this is fine. Kha'Zix can't do that (anymore).

    Manamune costs 2100g and grants ~40 ad (1000 total mana) upon buying it. For that gold you could have also gotten a B.F. Sword, a Long Sword and a couple of potions. The extra damage allows you to go toe-to-toe with your opponent and is overall more efficient than Manamune, because you won't lose as much CS through getting zoned.

    Another argument would be that Talon is very similiar to Kha'Zix, has worse mana costs and nobody rushes Tear on him!

    What are your opinions? How do you build Kha'Zix?

    For early mana issues, there are several options like the blue buff or the SotEL if you don't wanna to build the Manamune. I'd prefer these options generally, or at least when I know that I'll have a blue buff available during the early/mid game. Otherwise I rush tear + brutalizer, cause this combination grants me all the stats that I need during the lanining phase.

    Before the end of the laning phase I try to get the manamune asap, and then go directly for the tier 2 boots (situational).

    Talon is different to Kha'zix, 'cause he doesn't have any real strong interaction with Manamune, except for the empowered AA with Noxian Deplomacy and Cutthroat. Also, you're not expected to poke any one with Rake outside from the laning phase, mostly due to the short range that could easily move out of position. Apart from that, build path are similar (BT, Brutalizer and Last Whisper are items that you generally want on both of them).

    Talon is more similar to Zed in terms of gameplay, since he has to commit all of his combo to a single target. An interruption during the combo generally means a fail. Kha, from the other hand, just stand outside the fight poking with Void Spikes and when a squishie is low enought he goes in, pick the kill and easily go out untouched.

    Best!

  • #5

    Having 1000 Mana on your Manamune would turn it INTO a MURAMANA so you aren't even calculating the damage you would get from that and the Muramana works with his Q, overall his DPS is just way with Muramana also in the Season 3 meta, armour penetration is much more stronger and better then Raw AD.

     

  • #6

    Quote from InchLongSshLong »

    Having 1000 Mana on your Manamune would turn it INTO a MURAMANA so you aren't even calculating the damage you would get from that and the Muramana works with his Q, overall his DPS is just way with Muramana also in the Season 3 meta, armour penetration is much more stronger and better then Raw AD.

     

    I was speaking of total mana. Kha'Zix has 580 base mana at level 8. Add some mana from stacking Tear and the 250 of Manamune and you'll have roughly 1000 total mana, which evaluates to 40 total ad on Manamune.

    I know that Muramana is strong. But I think it takes too long to build up, because of the Tear nerf and it lessens the impact you have early to mid game, where Kha'Zix needs extra damage to snowball off skirmishes.

    Personality type: INTP
    myanimelist: http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Arazen

  • #7

    Well, if you want to roam you need wave clear, so you need W, and if you need W you also need mana regen. The problam is that without evlolving W and getting tear you will most likely get pushed and you will be unable to roam. Remember that he is melee. In rare cases you can free farm without W, but almost all the time you will need that wave clear. This is the main reason evolved W is still necessary.

    IGN: Ak3mi91 (EUNE)

  • #8

    since the W nerf i never play him with muramana, i play him with BT - LW - Tri Force - BC - Mercs - (situational)

    the main reason why ppl played him with muramana was because of the high mana cost on his W for pokecomps, he is supposed to be an assasin, not a poker.

  • #9

    Quote from Ak3mi91 »

    Well, if you want to roam you need wave clear, so you need W, and if you need W you also need mana regen. The problam is that without evlolving W and getting tear you will most likely get pushed and you will be unable to roam. Remember that he is melee. In rare cases you can free farm without W, but almost all the time you will need that wave clear. This is the main reason evolved W is still necessary.

    Agreed. Also I really think that just getting Tear and holding onto it for a long time, not rushing for muramana, is the smartest thing to do. You act like rushing tear puts you 700 gold behind but most midlaners have some form of mana regen as their first buy anyway, and Khaz has enough damage to assassinate with just tear and vamp scepter , and it's not a lot of gold for all the waveclear and harras which allows you to poke then kill then roam.

    Just buy the tear then go for Bloodthirster and don't build muramana till you 3rd or 4th item.

  • #10

    Quote from SummonerSupreme »

    Quote from Ak3mi91 »

    Well, if you want to roam you need wave clear, so you need W, and if you need W you also need mana regen. The problam is that without evlolving W and getting tear you will most likely get pushed and you will be unable to roam. Remember that he is melee. In rare cases you can free farm without W, but almost all the time you will need that wave clear. This is the main reason evolved W is still necessary.

    Agreed. Also I really think that just getting Tear and holding onto it for a long time, not rushing for muramana, is the smartest thing to do. You act like rushing tear puts you 700 gold behind but most midlaners have some form of mana regen as their first buy anyway, and Khaz has enough damage to assassinate with just tear and vamp scepter , and it's not a lot of gold for all the waveclear and harras which allows you to poke then kill then roam.

    Just buy the tear then go for Bloodthirster and don't build muramana till you 3rd or 4th item.

    With a Tear and Vamp Scepter you are not scary at all. That's 1500g spent for measly 10 ad. Life Steal is not good on Kha'Zix, especially if you are laning middle. You need to build damage if you want to snowball. As a mid laner you'll be getting blue buff anyway, so all that money (at least until you have maxed out Tear) is wasted. If you are not getting blue buff, it means, that it gets contested, where the extra damage of an offense build would have helped you to secure it.

    If you are building offense, you are forcing the enemy mid laner to build defense, which delays their precious mana builds. No Kassadin likes to get Armguard, just because you exist. If they can get away with Tear+Catalyst, they will do that.

    Building mana also means, that you can't one-shot the caster creeps with W. If you rather have a lot of ad, you can do that, cutting down the mana cost by 50%.

    As an assassin you have a mid game power spike and you want to make use of that as much as possible. If I want to wave clear for late game, Orianna would be a better pick.

    Last edited by D00meriksen: 7/15/2013 7:34:53 AM

    Personality type: INTP
    myanimelist: http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Arazen

  • #11

    I've been theorycrafting and I've found new interesting stuff!

    I'm talking about building Hydra->LW->Brutalizer->BC. As I tried to point out in another thread, Brutalizer is only good for the cdr and flat ad is better for burst heroes, that's why I'm building it after LW to increase its effectiveness.

    "Hydra? Why not BT?". Hope you like math. It's getting juicy. I bolded the most important parts as a TL;DR.

    A fully stacked BT has 25 more ad than Hydra.

    #combo 1: 2x Q, 1x W, 1x E, 3x aa

    With a fully stacked BT on isolated target you will deal ~228 damage.bonus damage (3x 25 + 6.25*25) over Hydra without considering Hydra's auto attack reset. That means, that even in the best case for BT, Hydra will outscale BT after 228 total ad.

    Now Hydra has a lot of advantages over BT:

    • easier build path
    • more sustain
    • cheap wave clearing
    • no need to stack it up
    • Tiamat makes burst trades stronger

    Remember, you are an assassin and the less auto attacks you get off on your target (3 autos is being really generous I think), the better Hydra gets.

    Now let's talk about laning phase.

    Combo #2: 1x E, 1x W, 1xQ (non isolated), 1x aa

    • Setup 1: Tiamat (1900g)
    • Setup 2: B.F. Sword + Long Sword (1950g)
    • Setup 3: BT (3200g)
    • Setup 4: Hydra (3300g)

    Setup 2 has 15 AD over setup 1. This equals to 1x 15 + 3.3x 15 = 64.5 damage over Tiamat. However, if the player with setup 1 uses the Tiamat active, he will out damage setup 2 in all cases. Tiamat wins.

    Setup 3 has 25 AD over setup 4. This equals to 1x 25 + 3.3x 25 = 107.5 damage over Hydra. Again, Hydra active will outdamage BT in all cases. Hydra wins.

    Edit: With "all cases", I mean, that Kha'Zix will always have enough total AD in that part of the game.

    Last edited by D00meriksen: 7/17/2013 5:15:14 PM

    Personality type: INTP
    myanimelist: http://myanimelist.net/animelist/Arazen

  • #12

    Tear --> Bruta OR BFS  --> BT (--> Brutaliser) --> Muramana --> Last Whisper --> Black Cleaver --> ??? (Probably GA or Omen or BT)

    Rationale : Tear for early game spamming for safe clear, prevents embarrassing oom, can be converted into the extremely efficient Muramana. Brutaliser for transition if BFS is far away from completion. Last Whisper for immediate damage spike. Black Cleaver for final damage spike. Further AD items do not increase your damage % as much, meaning defensive items increase survivability by a larger amount, effective damage output due to surviving theorised to be higher, calculated by taking [Duration alive] * k[Damage per rotation]. 

    Conjecture : Tear reduced charge speed makes it less relevant on Khazix. Mana issues were reduced a few patches ago as well. Possible to skip Muramana build. However, lack of cheap efficient substitutes hamper altering of build.

    Conjecture : At lvl18 Muramana gives approx 55-65 AD for 2.1k Gold. Extremely efficient, almost on par with BFS, while giving relevant support stats. Such efficiency is important on champions with no strong utility and need as much damage as possible, and are able to charge it fast or with relevant spam.

  • #13

    I don't know how you did your math, but I did it by myself and actually Hydra loses in all cases.

    I used your combo:
    #Combo 1: 2x Q, 1x W, 1x E, 3x AA

    BT(not isolated and isolated):

    • (2*1,5*100 AD) + (1*100 AD) + (1*0,8*100 AD) + (3*100 AD) = 300+100+80+300 = 780
    • (2*2,175*100 AD) + (1*100 AD) + (1*0,8*100 AD) + (3*100 AD) = 435+100+80+300 = 915

    Hydra(not isolated and isolated, 100% active):

    • (2*1,5*75 AD) + (1*75 AD) + (1*0,8*75 AD) + (3*75 AD) + (1*81+75) = 161,25+75+60+225+156 = 677,25
    • (2*2,175*75 AD)  + (1*75 AD)  + (1*0,8*75 AD)  + (3*75 AD) + (1*81+75) = 326,25+75+60+225+156 = 842,25

    Hydra(not isolated and isolated, 60% active):

    • (2*1,5*75 AD)  + (1*75 AD)  + (1*0,8*75 AD)  + (3*75 AD) + (0,6*81+75) = 161,25+75+60+225+123,6 = 644,85
    • (2*2,175*75 AD)  + (1*75 AD)  + (1*0,8*75 AD)  + (3*75 AD) + (0,6*81+75) = 326,25+75+60+225+123,6 = 809,85


    81 - Kha'Zix's base AD at level 10

    The facts:

    • Hydra gives LESS sustain than BT
    • Hydra has easier build path, but it's also double-edged sword, you may end up with no free space for ward or something like that if you can't afford the whole Tiamat
    • Hydra is also more expensive
    • Hydra loses to BT EVEN in perfect case(which is probably unrealistic), I mean it loses to BT even if active is used perfectly

     

    Last edited by Ak3mi91: 7/17/2013 6:32:34 PM

    IGN: Ak3mi91 (EUNE)

  • #14

    I would consider getting a mana item of some sort on any mana-based champion that relies mostly on abilities rather than auto-attacks (which definitely includes Kha'zix), just because it gives you a lot more freedom to stay in lane or roam, push or last hit, be ready for teamfights when they happen, etc. Muramana is far from a bad item even after the nerfs (why'd you post the item win rates anyway? Muramana with the highest win rate sort of undermines your argument doesn't it?). 

    The way I see it, unless you're going B constantly, getting a Tear and nearly doubling your mana pool is a way to nearly double the sustained damage you can put out in lane, at the cost of reducing your all-in burst potential by a much smaller percentage. It's a tradeoff but I think its worth it. Unless your lane is a total pushover, you need to poke them down before you all-in, which is much more doable with Tear. The fact that the item becomes gold efficient for AD later is just icing on the cake. 

  • #15
    I will still buy it out of habit but I'll admit it's way more situational than it was before, especially with the nerfs to Murimana that have come out lately. I'd still say get it more often than not but to keep your mind open if it's raw AD you need to win a lane, not mana sustain.

    And like with what the people above me said, Talon has no real interaction with manamune's active and is better off snowballing a lead early with AD items, considering he's more of a mid game assassin that needs that AD early for that mid game roam than an assassin that scales late.
    Last edited by Corvo: 7/17/2013 7:11:02 PM
  • #16

    To be honest, glancing at the OP's numbers they looked wrong. I was too lazy to confirm, so I'm not going to say 'they're wrong', but I'd be inclined to run them myself before agreeing. Ak3mi91's numbers look more reasonable.

    My definition of ELO Hell:-

    "Any point at which ego is greater than ELO."

  • #17

    I don't really understand how someone could look up the statistics of thousands of kha'zix games, listing the 4 most popular items and the winrate with each item, and then state that the item with the highest winrate sucks.

    Obviously there's something wrong with your analysis because the people building manamune are winning more games than people building bloodthirster.

  • #18

    Personally, I believe that might be, because of the fact Manamune is getting rushed, so if a game is won early on, and they do not have a BT or BC, than there is a less of a win chance for these games.

     Edit : Directed towards Elladril's post.

    Last edited by Adellium: 7/17/2013 10:02:35 PM
  • #19

    Talon apart from his Q and autos doesn't benefit from the Muramana toggle, whereas Kha'Zix continously uses his Q and autos to destroy the enemy. it is even more potent now due to the Q buffs.

    Now, cost efficiency: Assuming you have fully stacked your Muramana by level 14 you will get 56.4 bonus AD from it. A BF sword and longsword is 1950G and it gives you 55 AD, for around 150G you will get 1 bonus AD 1000 bonus mana, some mana regen, and a really strong toggle.

    You can argue that you can build the BF + Longsword into a BT but lets look at that too. To go from BF and longsword to a BT you will need 1250G, the AD you will get from it is 100. 

    Q + Muramana (Isolated) : 275.5(Base) +121.8(manamune AD scaling (mana at level 14))+ ~100 (Muramana toggle) = 497.3 dmg, 

    Q+ BT (Isolated) : 275.5(Base)+ 217.5(BT scaling) = 493 dmg.

    For 1250 more gold you get 4 less dmg on your Qs, more spammibility for W. Also who really uses E for dmg?

    this is before any kind of runes, other items because they only affect the scaling, there is nothing to multiplicatively increase AD.

    Muramana is better on KhaZix than BT because it is cheaper and he effectively utilises it.

    But on someone like Talon who isn't able to do so, it isnt that effective.

  • #20

    Muramana is okay on khazix,

    The damage is mostly ignored late game ETC

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