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Tips on carry type junglers and how to improve

  • #1

    Hi fellow RoG forum members, well everybody knows how to improve in the game and the very omni-important cs, but that matters less in the jungle.

    First sorry for my english i'm not the best but i try to improve every day (what the heck xD i have to speak english and german every day at work , and i am neither of them).

    The thing is i'm an average 1300 elo player i know how to play tanky or tank junglers ( my best are maokai,nautilus and jarvan.) but normaly i dont know how to itemize with an carry type jungler (except assasins like xin or khazix i play them averagely well).

    i end up not knowing what to build next or i do the mistake of building too much damage and nearly any defense or the contrary, ¿could i have some advice of this?, and some champion reconmendation of what to choose?

    im a euw player. 

    Thanks and kind regards to all

    Last edited by xerido: 1/22/2013 3:22:23 PM

    A corax is always aware of his duty, to observe and tell the great gaia, and well sometimes you can take those precious shiny things

                 

  • #2

    i really have not seen any good "carry type" jungler in season 3. i guess you are talking about the all day farming tryndamere or ad yi? i think full assasin jungler such as kha zix, shaco, and all other guys that can just walk out of jungle with maybe a brutalizer and just murder you. these guys will build straight damage as long as they can afford it and get the killing done. the other type of jungle that is really good atm is the tanky bruiser. xin zaoh, jarvan, and stuff. build one damage item and then straight tank. peel in teamfights for the ad carry or try to zone/ kill the enemy ad carry.

    without any champions you want to learn i cannot give you good advice-.-

  • #3

    i'm trying to master lee sin, and when needed i build my jarvan more damaging , well i will make a more specific question what damage item do you recomend for jarvan? a black cleaver as nearly everyone? and carry type junglers i mean things like trynda,yi,diana for example. as i say i'm trying to improve in general and sometimes its i dont know how to build damaging with tanky champions ( as told i dont have any problems with xin or khazix, loved that last one and played him even before everyone began to ban him :( always occurs the same to me i like a champion everybody says its crap bam some pro play them and everybody taking or banning him :( )

    Last edited by xerido: 1/22/2013 3:42:41 PM

    A corax is always aware of his duty, to observe and tell the great gaia, and well sometimes you can take those precious shiny things

                 

  • #4

    watch some xj9, he is the ideal example of a carry jungler. He afk farms for the first 20 min,farms jungle, then farms lanes when people b, only ganks when someone is begging to die, then comes out of the jungle lvls ahead and with tons of money, and proceeds to murder everyone. 

    His build for most of his carry junglers is: boots + 4 dmg items (last whisper, bloodthirster, black cleaver, hextech)+ warmog (cuz warmog op).

    Note: xj9 also never gives his blue to the apc, helps him clear faster, longer.

    http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/20494083#history here is the link to his recent games (note how his score and gold is something you rarely see on a jungler)

    how to climb elo 

    "don't look down"

     

  • #5

    thanks supportking, im interested cause many times my team is really tanky but it lacks some sustained damage that those junglers give,  thank you veyr much

    A corax is always aware of his duty, to observe and tell the great gaia, and well sometimes you can take those precious shiny things

                 

  • #6

    Yeah I agree, just watch XJ9's stream: he carries from the jungle every darn time.

    Mongol General: Conan! What is best in life?

    Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

    Mongol General: That is good! That is good.

    - Conan the Barbarian -

  • #7

    I have to same problem as you. I'm learning to play Nocturne right now, but every time I come out of the jungle, I feel so useless. I don't do enough damage, I can't peel hard, I can't tank. I've had lots of success with tanky junglers like Skarner before, because when I come out of the jungle, I feel that I'm doing stuff for my team by ulting their adc's, permaslowing divers, etc. But when I play Nocturne.... I just feel that I'm not doing anything. Generally, at around the 20 min mark, I have a Wriggles, Phage, and Merc's if I got 1 or 2 good ganks off, but I still do nothing. Does anybody have any tips? Thanks.

    Video games, where anybody worse than you is a noob, anybody better than you has no life.

  • #8

    That's the thing about Nocturne, you either get kills (or do it XJ9 style, farming for 20 mins and not giving any buff to anyone and only ganking when you'd be stupid not to) and become a monster that the enemy team can't possibly ignore, or you'll always feel somewhat useless. With Nocturne, you have to get fed, even if it means ksing.

    Here's my main tanky dps build I use on Nocturne, of course you'll have to adapt it according to the enemy team comp:

    Wriggle's, Merc Treads, Frozen Mallet, Randuin's Omen, Wit's End, Bloodthirster and replace Wriggle's for GA.

    This build gives you enough tankyness to survive any burst and it also gives you enough damage to 1v1 most champion (except for uber fed Vayne and other late game hyper carries). What items you build first depends on who's the major threat in the enemy team. The build is kinda lacking on magic res before GA (which I never get to unless it's a 50 min game) but you shouldn't really need it anyway if you use your spell shield correctly.

     

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  • #9

    well i just tried out some carrish vi and i had good results, looking at that guys match history builds and enemy composition i could think something for my game, thank you so much for the tips ^^

    A corax is always aware of his duty, to observe and tell the great gaia, and well sometimes you can take those precious shiny things

                 

  • #10

    Hey OuterRaven, I followed your build and advice. When I came out of the jungle, I was pretty farmed, and I could actually do some good damage, and was fairly tanky, despite being Shaco taking my red and forcing me to flash at lvl 2. The only problem was, well, its been a while since I played a game where people raged so hard. The entire game, all I see in chat is "OMG NOCT DOESN'T GANK", "OMG SHACO CAMPS AND NOCT DOESN'T EVEN COME TO MY LANE", "REPORT NOCT", etc.

    (In fact, I did gank, but I'll admit that I ganked a lot less than I normally would have)

    We lost because their Shaco got fed as hell, and I couldn't countergank much, even though I had my ult, because I was busy farming.

    I'm not really butthurt about it, since I know that this is a pretty common thing to happen for people to blame the jungler for their own mistakes, but if I'm going to play Noct and farm all day, stuff like this will happen almost every game.

    So pretty much, the build works, but in order to get it, I pretty much have to assume that my lanes will not feed, and they will be perfectly fine without me, even if their jungler camps, which is obviously not possible. So... is there anything I'm doing wrong? If you could give some tips that'll be great :)

    Last edited by registermyaccount: 1/22/2013 8:22:41 PM

    Video games, where anybody worse than you is a noob, anybody better than you has no life.

  • #11

    I just did the same experiment with lee sin-afk farm for 20 min. 

    the result: bot and mid lost because of shyvanna ganks. It seems that for the farm the jungle strat to work, your laners have to survive ganks and make it to the point where you emerge as a farmed beast while their jungler doesn't matter much. 

    conclusion:

    it's a gamble, farm your jungle and hope that your lanes don't lose, or bet it all on the early game and hope your laners carry you. I don't like both options >.< 

    Either way, you are always filled with a feeling of dread "plz don't die, just 10 more min and I can start carrying" or "I have been feeding you kills, covering your lane, grabbing red/blue for you so pllllzzzzzz when I make a dragon call get the  **** over here, 190 g > 3 minions ffs" 

    kiwi <3

    how to climb elo 

    "don't look down"

     

  • #12

    Kiwi!

    Also, I agree, It's a gamble either way, but as long as you communicate to your team that they should be playing as safe as possible while you farm the jungle... Or... If you help them with the burden of wards so they don't feed too much, it'll all work itself out, just make sure your team is aware of the strategy you're trying to employ... And objectives still matter...

  • #13

    Quote from registermyaccount »

    Hey OuterRaven, I followed your build and advice. When I came out of the jungle, I was pretty farmed, and I could actually do some good damage, and was fairly tanky, despite being Shaco taking my red and forcing me to flash at lvl 2. The only problem was, well, its been a while since I played a game where people raged so hard. The entire game, all I see in chat is "OMG NOCT DOESN'T GANK", "OMG SHACO CAMPS AND NOCT DOESN'T EVEN COME TO MY LANE", "REPORT NOCT", etc.

    (In fact, I did gank, but I'll admit that I ganked a lot less than I normally would have)

    We lost because their Shaco got fed as hell, and I couldn't countergank much, even though I had my ult, because I was busy farming.

    I'm not really butthurt about it, since I know that this is a pretty common thing to happen for people to blame the jungler for their own mistakes, but if I'm going to play Noct and farm all day, stuff like this will happen almost every game.

    So pretty much, the build works, but in order to get it, I pretty much have to assume that my lanes will not feed, and they will be perfectly fine without me, even if their jungler camps, which is obviously not possible. So... is there anything I'm doing wrong? If you could give some tips that'll be great :)

    Nothing you can really do except growing some tough skin and deal with it. Just ignore the angry little kids who flame at you and keep doing your own thing. XJ9 can just stay in the jungle and farm because he knows how to carry games. That comes from experience, nothing that can be taught.

    If you feel like you're neglecting your lanes too much try to gank whenever your ult is up. In low-mid elo most of your ults will net you a kill or assist if you're competent with Noc and your laner isn't completely braindead, so you won't be wasting much time.

    Last edited by OuterRaven: 1/23/2013 11:31:00 AM

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  • #14

    remember, a jungler needs presence to be effective.  AFK-farming isn't the way to go about it.  You also shouldn't waste your time trying to gank every lane.

    Certain champions have horrible clear times, such as Shen back in season 2, or are perhaps unable to sustain themselves. Those gank heavy and happy champions like Xin Zhao and Pantheon are in on this too.  They will spend time waiting for the perfect gank, and have a large window of opportunity.  They need the gank's, they spend time on ganks. Missing out on a set of Wraiths or Wolves won't hurt them, since it wouldn't help them either.  The trade off for ganking is horrible Farm.  Or you'll have Maokai, who doesn't make much use out of the farm.  He'll also gank more as he can insure his team mates get it.  Maokai would rather grab an assist (kill for the mate) than his whole farm, as that farm isn't as useful.

    Then we pick up the opposite end, Tryndamere and Hecarim.  They've sub par early game, and perhaps only a meh mid game.  The late game power they have will more than equalize the balance between ganking and farming.  Regardless of how they get it, Hecarim and Tryndamere can't waste time doing nothing.  If they gank it's only for a moment, they don't wait for the perfect chance as that's both rare and hard to ensure.  Since they're busy farming, they won't be around to help the lanes. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't show up, or indeed that they prioritize farming over ganking.  They need to be able to counter gank at a moment's notice, ward for the team, or generally be around the map.  Tryndamere might not gank a bot lane his team pushed, but if he's around that Shaco's going to think twice before engaging.   Hecarim is built around speed, he's the tools to meet up and counter gank regardless of where he's farming, and that's a ton of help.

     

    Then you can pick up our favorites, the Hybrid's.  Nocturne will fall into this.  He doesn't NEED to prioritize ganking, as he's always able to do it.  He's famous for the split push man, that ultimate can instantly bring you to the side of your team mates when you need to be there.  Once a team mate is getting ganked by Shyvana, you'll need to help him recover.  Nocturne has the ability to instantly support his team, and he should make use of that.  Carry junglers carry the game, be it Lee Sin's offensive early and defensive/support late, or Tryndamere insta-gibing foes at level 18 full build.   But you need to be with your team without sacrificing your farm.  I'll suggest Olaf and Udyr for this.   Olaf has the clear speed, late game scaling, early strength, and build flexibility to achieve what you're wanting. Udyr meanwhile, has to be able to Farm his jungle, gank the lanes, grab the dragon, counter jungle, and build around the team comps.  All the while without a serious ultimate or ability cooldown that enables these things. As long as Udyr is at full mana, he's at full power.  No weak moment in his kit.  You dive a Blitz after he grab's, you jump a Corkie after the jump.  Udyr's always ready to punish those who come to fight him.   He can't catch an Ahri and hates Ashe, but proper control and you'll carry your team to victory before the 20 minute mark.

    Always take down towers early, Junglers don't farm lanes, they farm jungles! Those towers just get in your way, always push your team to push the towers, they'll push back, but when you have the early advantage, push it and you've won.   Lots of those pro-teams showed how Objectives > Farming.  You can do both, don't just wait, force it.

  • #15

    I have many times problems to take objectives, an normal scenario for me is, i gank or countergank bot , we kill 3 of their champions ( adc,support and jungler) but then my carry who is half health full and having mid at mid visible or top NEVER wants to push lane to damage or kill turrets, and when i make them to take the turret and the enemy team is still on 3 seconds timer to respawn , they refuse to take dragon :(, its frustrating, i wont complain about people coming when invading i learnt to deal with that but the thing about pushing and taking turrets dragon or nashor frustrates me sometimes ( i even perform worse i recognize it).

    and then i have too the extreme opposite, the support or carry after half succesfull teamfight ping like mad to do a baron or dragon while being very low on health and mana all our team and knowing those objectives are warded. i normaly convince them to not do it but i cant stay there always to simply win a game and then throw it giving free kills to enemy :(.

    i'm not the best jungler and i know sometimes/many times it is my fault for something ( ganked too much all lanes leading to gold/exp starvation even when being succesfull, building too tanky without a single damage item when it is necessary). I'm trying to improve those things but sometimes i feel i simply fail at it

    A corax is always aware of his duty, to observe and tell the great gaia, and well sometimes you can take those precious shiny things

                 

  • #16

    I feel very comfortable in the jungle because I know that I can salvage any of my lanes. Sometimes a lane is just lost and you can't do much about it, but if you pick a tanky jungler (I have an 80% w/r with Maokai over about 15 games or something like that) that can initiate fights and pin down targets you can handle anything. Bot feeds, you can take out their fed ADC fast, or AP carry or whatever, and you can help the other lanes and ensure they do well. Shen and Malphite are good picks if they aren't instabanned. Otherwise I love Maokai for the job of initiating, peeling, etc. You can carry most teams this way, though sometimes there's no saving people T.T 

  • #17

    Remember, the early game is the game of the jungler.  Your support is really nice to have with you, but consider the AD Carry as worthless.  That Carry will make dragons and towers far easier to kill, but all they have over you is range.  You're stronger, faster, and better equipped to take down threats.   The Carry is about potential.  Ashe has the potential to kill everybody on your team, but until then, they account for little.

    Sure, the can deal damage, but it's slow, they have range over you, but it won't help them once you take that away.  When your carry is long on health and wishes to leave the lane, let them.  You've got full control of any minions in that lane when they leave, and if you decide to push the tower down you can do this.   Go up and do it, Dragon's a powerful asset to take down, but when deciding against an iffy dragon or a free tower, pick the tower.   It's best to get away with a low tower than a dragon and a death.   You can't solo dragon safely so don't.  The support, who's able to support the jungler far more than a Carry, but doesn't need to, can provide all the help you need against a tower or dragon.   Mid lane should be your cover fire, while the carry deals damage and the Support removes wards.   Certain champions are able to deal with towers, others ignore them.

    Olaf walking around with a Giants belt and a machete at level 4 wont' win any races, but he'll ignore early tower shots enough to kill those who think they're safe and still escape.  Udyr's got enough steroids to tank the tower, take the kill, and get out.

     Udyr is especially who I'll suggest. He's both tanky and able to carry the early game.  You'll want to take Dragon with help, but can do it by yourself if you know what you're doing.  He can Phoenix down lanes and farm it better than near anybody, but thats the cost you get for weaker ganking.  If you can gank a lane as Udyr, you can take the tower as Udyr.  Proper use of Bear stance and Flash is required, as well as how to charge your Phoenix hits and your Passive.  Udyr's able to run up and gank, and get into his jungle quickly afterwards.  As Udyr you should get used to taking your camps as you pass them, healing and mana regen with turtle, then bearing that extra mana away as you get ready for the gank.  Gank quickly, grab one bear stun and 3 phoenix hits and you've done you job, get out.  Udyr can deal massive damage to both champions and towers, as well as tank the hits.  You've got to learn how to get it and BAMN, victory.

    Late game however you won't carry, and that won't help you at all for learning to carry the jungle. But it will provide you the tools to enable your team without forcing you into the solid "tank only" role other champions would have.  It's great for learning how to push objectives and properly gauge your enemies, to know who you can go in on and who'd get away.   Pick up Olaf if you want to sacrifice that team-support and go full on Tank/Carry/Killer.

    Olaf doesn't simply get assists, he goes out of the way to either catch up to his team, or just kills the man out right.

     

  • #18
    I don't know how you build your champ so I can't say. This is my personal advice towards any solo queue jungler. Build a support tanky jungler. You need to benefit your team as much as possible and not yourself as much. Don't think of yourself as being able to carry a team. You should focus on having your APC or ADC carry the team. Your purpose is to gank and get them the kills. Junglers like Xin, Jarvan, Olaf, should have at least a randuins because it's always useful for your team. Champions like Maokai or Nautilus should have a bulwark. All in all, you should build to help your team and to counter the enemy team. Sadly to say the jungler shouldn't be the highlight, it should be the ADC or APC. Help your team out and you'll benefit by gaining elo.
  • #19

    I tend to disagree with the above comment, as there ain't no player as useless as the AD Carry.

    The game isn't about those guys, who sit back and play kill the monster for 45 minutes.  The players who need a support to babysit them all the time, and when they can't manage it ask the jungler for help.  AD carries are young bloods with Bows and Arrows and Crossbows and Guns.  Sure it hurts, but they're too stupid to reload, to weak to pull the string, and to short to aim above the knee-caps.  They're walking babies who're able to cry in sentences instead of waahs and woohs.

    Given enough time, they'll grow up into fine working members of society, and it's the kids who are the future.



    But the Junglers carry games on their backs.  Junglers make the plays, be the tanks, earn the highlights, get MVP's, gain the goal, and enable the entire team.  Certain junglers are about being "Jesus Superstar" and straight carrying from the jungle. Tryndamere, Hecarim, and Jax.  Some like Olaf or Darius arn't about the fame or the game, they're in it to win it like they be doing, playing to strengths of killing the enemies.   Jarvan's and Nautilus make there teams go round, and are responsible for everything they get near, and come out ahead because of if.

    This ain't Season 2, where giving your jungle to the Nunubot support was worth more than using it yourself.  Itemization has changed, lanes have changed, and jungles have changed.  The buff's are now worth more for the Jungler, are harder to take from the jungler, and costs the jungler more.  Popular season 2 picks like Alistar and Shen were main-stays for that "we don't need gold any-ways" styles of play.  They don't work so well anymore, as they honestly didn't work originally. 

    It's time for the jungler to shine, so join that Talon mid, pick up Rengar and start building that Triple Cleaver + Bonetooth and QQ'ing them Carries to (elo)hell.

  • #20

    Im gonna get flamed for this but do me a favour and try a few games and you il se that im right, Try Sejuani out, rush a early locket, then warmogs, then Liandries.

    You will be able to tank, You will be able to do sick initiates and CC, PLUS you will do tons of damage.

    Sejuani wasnt good in season2, but in season3 she got basestats buffed plus some items that is pretty much tailormade for her, i know she WAS bad but dont let that fool you, she is damn strong now and is VERY good att carrying games, she gets kills she gives kills she tanks she initiates she CC,s she is like Amumu imo even tho id rank Amumu higher beeing a Amumu lite is something realy good

    Oldschool gamer, gamer since birth

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