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ELO hell is both fact and fiction

  • #1

    After playing a few games (about 40) on my friend's account (who was around 1k rated when I started, it is now 1300ish, my main is currently 1600 rated), I still had no idea why people kept whining about why ELO hell was so hard. Here I was, winning 80-90% of my games and climbing the ladder steadily. It was only when I played a game with this duo team (one of whom was 1500ish rated) that I finally realized what ELO hell is.

    Simply put, it is all because of the luck of the draw. There are bad players out there. However, there are also a few decent players sprinkled in there for various reasons. I was a 1600 player playing in below 1200 ELO. I expected my team-mates to be bad, but I also expected my opponents to be bad. Suddenly, I meet this 1500 opponent. I'm sure my opponent was surprised too. He was duoing with a friend who had a 3 to 1 loss to win ratio in ranked. I assumed he forced his friend to play jungle, since he way playing AD carry.

    I was at top lane as AD nidalee, one of my strongest champions. Needless to say, my garen opponent didn't stand a chance in lane, and soon found himself with 3 deaths and had only 40 cs to my 120. However, after the garen died for the first time (due to a gank from our jungler, the enemy 1500 player started to rant about how much of a retard the garen was, and how he did everything wrong, from picking a champion that COULD get counterpicked to dying to a jungle gank because he didn't have wards (this was when he was level 3 and haven't gone back). I could clearly see that the enemy garen was disappointed in being trashed in lane by me to such as extent, but he still kept going at it bravely despite no support from his team. I can feel for him, as he faced a much higher ranked player who played a champion that countered his - not a good experience. However I noticed that the garen was starting to do worse and worse as the game progressed, and I realized that it was most likely because of all the abuse his team was giving him for losing the lane. I kindly told him to ignore his team and try to do his best to have fun with the game. I got a response "good idea" from him, and from that point on, his playing improved immensely. He started roaming a little since laning was hopeless and scored three quick kills quite fast and helped his team take down dragon. I could see he wasn't a bad player at all (possibly 1400ish material) and he started to play like one. Still, it was a lost cause; since i was dominating top lane so much, i was really farmed, and our jungler was able to focus ganks on mid and bot. The enemy jungler almost never ganked, and was very underleveled. 16 minutes in, top inhibitor was dead and we attemped baron where we aced the enemy team. Game lasted for barely 20 minuted before enemy team surrendered.

    Next game, I was placed in the same team as the Garen i laned against. He recognized me and asked if I wanted top lane. I told him to take it if he really wanted it since I could play all roles. He went top as garen again, and I ended up in the jungle as lee sin. On the loadscreen, I noticed a familiar name; the 1500ish player from the previous game playing nidalee and his friend playing support (soraka)! I was a little worried about our garen laning against a 1500ish nidalee, so I decided to do an early gank on top. I shouldn't have worried, as our garen scored FB on the enemy nidalee before I could reach his lane (exhaust, ignite OP!). From that point on, our garen dominated nidalee in lane and zoned her hard thanks to brush. He later died to a few jungle ganks, but I managed to gank bot twice during that time, each time scoring a doublekill and our mid was doing well there (20 cs and one kill up). The 1500 player again starts to spread his hate to all-chat and this time the target of his abuse is the AD carry for getting caught in ganks twice. No mention of him managing to lose lane against garen as nidalee despite his jungler ganking garen twice for him, and no mention of his friend who didn't buy a single ward all game. Needless to say, with us winning all 3 lanes so much, surrender at 20 happened.

    Simply put, ELO is hell the ELO range where people who aren't very good badmouth and blame their team for everything, even things that weren't their fault in the first place. These people ruin the fun and demoralize their team-mates to such an extent that they play much worse than they usually do, and thus often loses those games. They also give up pre-emtively and starts to play suboptimally themselves. The whiners will keep doing this with every team they are on, and will thus never be able to climb out of ELO "hell".

  • #2

    Thank you very much for this anecdote.  It helped me realize that I should just ignore the people on my team who are bad mouthing me in game if I die to ganks and continue playing normally.  I'm currently right at 1100 but whenever I play with a duo partner I climb to about 1320 or so and continue to win until I go to solo again because then I have to rely on my unknown teamates and I take everything said to me very personally.  So once again, I thank you for sharing this anecdote because it made me realize that I have the potential to climb higher and I need to focus on myself and admit if I made errors rather than blame my team or take unnecessary blame frrom my team.  

  • #3

    I think this elo hell problem should have clear definition based on logic.

    What is "elo hell" ?
    Elo hell is a way to say that some player might be better than the average of his elo (like, a good or excellent player) and still wouldn't manage to win over 50 pct of his games, whatever he does and how well he takes every possible advantage.

    So, how can a "good" player not manage to win more than half his games? The only logical answer would be "He has better ennemies than average and/or worse teammates than average". In conclusion if that's true for a really few number of players, that's just bad luck, but if that's true for a great majority of "good" players, the matchmaking algorithms would have to pounder his "skills" not only with his actual elo but with some other parameters that are unknown to him. For instance, this player could win his lane 2/3 of the times (because he knows how to counter pick, play his champions, and how to build accordingly to the game's happenances, gank correctly, ward, ...) but would have such a matchmaking than the other lanes and jungler would fail more than they should.

    (I'm not saying that elo hell exists or doesn't exist. I'm just trying and think logically)
    Option A :
    -So, let's suppose the matchmaking algorithms are "fairs". The matchmaking should only take into account the actual elo of the teams he plays with and against to put him in a team (minus himself) that should have the same "skills" than the ennemies, but him being stronger than this average he should end up raising elo after a certain amount of games. Long story short :
    Matchmaking algorithms only take care about average elo to matchmake teams => Elo hell doesn't exist but for a tiny pctage of players that end up being really really unluckies.

    Option B :
    -This time, let's suppose the matchmaking algorithms not only take into account the elo to matchmake your teams, but also unknown parameters to "evilishly" lower or higher (according to player's skills over or below average) the chances of winning of someone. For instance, let's say this player's "real" elo would be 1800, his actual elo would be 1600. Accordingly to the matchmaking algorithms that use hidden stats to alter compositions of teams, he might end up with ennemies having averagely 1700 "hidden" elo, and his teammates having 1500 "hidden" elo. Long story short :
    Matchmaking algorithms "trick" so even if you try and carry your best, you have more "weights" or "helps", and end up with half of ur games won even after a great amount of games. Elo hell would so exist in this case but *.

    *There would be the case in which you "learn" how to play faster than what algorithms would predict, ending up with you being stronger than you should and winning a bit more games than you should.
    Also, since the "hidden" elo is poundered to an account, if you are, let's say, good, but an "excellent" friend plays on your account you end up with more wins than before and so have an elo raise.
    Also, there is the possibility of you being "lucker" and raising elo after all.

    I'm not saying Option A or Option B is more likely than the other. The only way knowing if elo hell is systemic or randomly bad luck, would be either asking Riot to give us an exhaustive list of "hidden" parameters that are used to put players together in games (for instance, we all know that if you get reported for unskilled, you end up playing at a lower "elo" in normal games, that is an example of "true hidden parameters that alter matchmaking").
    Either develloping some tools that would analyse how well a player does (for instance, how he wins his lane after 10/15 mins, does he counter-pick, are his runes totally fail or "logicals" (how much ad carries play with crit pct runes at 1400 elo, srsly, or how much solotop don't have a set with mag res or armor according to ennemies, or how much games he afked/trolled/ ...) so we could also collect statistics to know if algorithms are altered. I'm not a "pro" develloper nor a pro player so I can't have a clear idea how it would work, I'm only throwing the idea.

    I'm sorry for the long post, but I'd like you not to flame (because hey, elo hell is most flamed subject we can talk about) and to try and put as much logical and thoughts in your answers that I tried and do.

    Thank you.

  • #4

    I think ELOhell is exists. When you have 1-2 trollpicker in a party, who choosing useless positions (3 mid champ, zero support, 2 adcarry, 2 jungler... these are only from my few last games) its doesnt matter how good player you are. I losing a lots of time with 10+ /2-3/ 10+ stats when the match is 10+/30+ and all other teammmembers have terrible stats. Usulay some of them flaming and the others follow them.

    Other problem they doesnt counterpick because they want to play only one ot two position (usualy: "i mid" or "i mid or top ONLY"). So when the enemy first picks an ad carry what we should counterpick to keep our chance to counterpick they next pick they choosing a mid champion. Usualy they cant change because they have only 4-5 champions. In this situation very easy to make a wrong pick.

    They always ban the same champions (kassadin, morgana, shen, etc) not the ones which could counterpick their plans.

    This game is developed to win in a team not alone. And its very hard to win a match alone. Sometimes you can carry a match if the enemy is weak enough but usualy not. For example if the enemy has 2 players together who is not ablsolutely dumb they win. If your team have only 1 feeder who feed faster than the enemy they win.

    I usualy trying to help with advice my team because some of them have no clue how they champion works but the most kind advices even get the answer: "stfu noob".

    So... i realy dont know how could i help myself out of these situations.

     

  • #5

    Quote from anwalen »

    I think ELOhell is exists. When you have 1-2 trollpicker in a party, who choosing useless positions (3 mid champ, zero support, 2 adcarry, 2 jungler... these are only from my few last games) its doesnt matter how good player you are. I losing a lots of time with 10+ /2-3/ 10+ stats when the match is 10+/30+ and all other teammmembers have terrible stats. Usulay some of them flaming and the others follow them.

    Other problem they doesnt counterpick because they want to play only one ot two position (usualy: "i mid" or "i mid or top ONLY"). So when the enemy first picks an ad carry what we should counterpick to keep our chance to counterpick they next pick they choosing a mid champion. Usualy they cant change because they have only 4-5 champions. In this situation very easy to make a wrong pick.

    They always ban the same champions (kassadin, morgana, shen, etc) not the ones which could counterpick their plans.

    This game is developed to win in a team not alone. And its very hard to win a match alone. Sometimes you can carry a match if the enemy is weak enough but usualy not. For example if the enemy has 2 players together who is not ablsolutely dumb they win. If your team have only 1 feeder who feed faster than the enemy they win.

    I usualy trying to help with advice my team because some of them have no clue how they champion works but the most kind advices even get the answer: "stfu noob".

    So... i realy dont know how could i help myself out of these situations.

     

     

    I'm sorry, but you don't describe elo hell in these examples. I'm sorry, but to be serious, saying what you just said is a bit too much "cry baby" than it should for it to be seriously taken into account, although I totally agree and understand your point of view.

    Elo hell would mean "this kind of trolls/leavers/really fail teammates ..." happen on my side way more than on ennemies' side.
    Everyone has this kind of problem at every elo, sometimes for tenths of games in a row.

    But the only thing we need to know, is do this kind of *** happens as much in the teams you play with than in the teams you play against. There are really few ways of playing 500 ranked games and knowing for sure that you had, let's say, statistically 20 pct more leavers in your team than in ennemies. It's quite tough calcultating how much on a high amount of games, you won your lane 63 pct of the time and lost it 37.

    Having and submitting "feelings" on "oh I just have too much troll in this game, I can't raise elo", is way too easily criticable to tell on the forums. That's a prayers for "good hi elo players" to put down "crying babies" telling that they are just not good enough carrying games.
    The problem, is we don't know anything about matchmaking and games statistics, and we would never be able to tell for sure elo hell exists or doesn't simply based on "feelings". This is a leak too much "skilled" people would use to discriminate you.

  • #6

    i will say this, maybe 200 or so Elo below you players will be similarly skilled enough that you won't be able to carry and will have to fight from this point to win more games then you lose. Also people give up FAR to easily.

    I have won ranked games with a jungle corki, i have seen jungle cass. i have won 3v5's and i've had an enemy team who had 3.....3!!!leavers on their side while we had none. If you just play smart you can win in% of situations even if they seem bad, if oyu actually play your best and are better then oyur oppenents then champion picks don't really matter until about 1600 Elo

  • #7

    I would say it's not totally true.

    In "elo hell" more than anywhere else, counter picking is quite important (but in jungle). Because if you see a mordekaiser on mid or a yorick on top, allowing a "supposedly" worse player going for any champs instead of Cass or Trynd, it raise ennemies' chance of snowballing hard.

    Same goes for runes, using mobafire builds instead of thinking "Hey, I'm Vlad top vs a Gankplank, it would be smart if I use flat armor and AP runes instead of going usual mpen, AP/lvl, mres" is quite giving them the upper hand.

    But truth is, we all won 4v5 games, we all "troll-picked" once in a while, and still won (even with Eve jungle xD)
    I don't agree on giving up easily. Some players stop caring, from their first death or even from matchmaking. But they already gave up when they failed their countering and build, for instance. Meanwhile, it's way harder to have a team surrendering, even after ennemies got Nashor, because fuck yeah, we are in elo hell, everything can happen.

    No, even if you are quite a good player confident in your knowledge of game dynamics, playing in low elo doesn't mean you shouldn't give yourself every little advantage you can grab, like counter picking and countering runes, because if you don't, the guy next door in your team won't probably too, and it raises twice more your chances of failing a game that might be won.

    Last edited by MerryLane: 4/22/2012 2:51:36 AM
  • #8

    So in my last match: enemy had mundo. All of my team members focused on him in all the game. I played malphite. I tryed to kill their vayne and fizz but my team just hit mundo. I asked them 20+ times to not focus on mundo but they kept to do that. Of course we lost around 25/50. Realy pls tell me how to win a match like this. (i was on top lane against mundo and olaf with malphite, i was ok on that lane) I always have matches like this. Okay. I am not good enough as you say but i realy dont know anyone how could win these matches.

  • #9

    Dude, problems like that happen all the time. Sometimes you are strong enough to snowball out of control and overgo your team's failures, sometimes you get carried, and sometimes you fail, sometimes your team overfails.

    The hugest problem bro, isn't "my team fail so hard all the time", but "Am I better than the average" and "Do I get worse teams than average".

    If you wanted, I could go and check your runes/masteries for your chars, would advice you to play those champions, would tell you how important it is to go on LoLpro.com and learn how to counter-pick, as important as it is building your char according to game's happenstance (For instance, rushing mr or armor if someone starts snowballing) and I could find in your plays loads of mistakes that you didn't realise yet. But I'm not even a "pro" nor really the best player I know, they would do the same for me and explain me how noob I am and why.

    And that's the problem with elo hell, you can't really know it happens because you have your fails that participate into losses, or because matchmaking is really in your defavor. It is only about "feelings" for now, and thus the discussion should go towards fact and logic instead.

  • #10

    The point I was trying to make is that yes, matchmaking isn't completely fair, and sometimes you do get good enemies and bad team-mates. But in the long run, when you play a lot of games, you will end up roughly where you belong in the ladder.

    However, almost all lower ELO games I've played have had HEAVY flaming going on in the losing team. Once you start approaching 1600, I feel that this badmouthing becomes much less prominent and less abusive and offensive. I personally think this kind of behavior leads to you making your team worse.

    Having the right mindset when doing anything is important. If your mindset is completely off, you're not going to preform nearly as well as you can, and shit-talking your team WILL make an impact on them in one way or another.

    Another thing that might affect player is what they are used to playing; my main roles are solo top and solo mid (and jungle lee sin). Force me bot lane, and I promise you I won't be nearly as good as I am on my normal roles. Don't get me wrong, I can play them, but just not as well. However, at lower ELO, people might not be able to play a certain role (lack of experience, runes etc). They usually say so early in chat, but usually team leader and #2 just locks in solo top and mid, leaving the people with roles they don't want and maybe don't even enjoy playing. We play this game for fun, and when the fun is taken away, you might think that the matchisn't worth playing.

  • #12

    I don't know what I do wrong, so. On EUW servers I'm currently playing, I can play "efficiently" 10/15 chars, and I play each role. I try and dodge solotop & support because I don't feel I'm best there, but anyway, I like never loose my lane, since I counterpick efficiently and I know quite well game mechanics.

    Long story short, I win one game out of two, whatever I do.

    And that's ununderstandable. I just went up to 1500 back to unranked 7 times in 500 games. It just goes yoyo, yoyo, yoyo. Maybe I just belong to this elo-range, but I hardly doubt it. If any pro here feels like carrying me from elo-hell to "elo-heaven", he would be welcome, but I quite doubt it's possible :p
    (noone goes "Challenge accepted?" xD)

  • #13

    I think a lot of it is bias where you remember when your team mates troll you, but you never really see the extent to which the opposing team is having conflict/trolls. So when people make those claims, "I can't win because my team mates suck," they never pay attention to when they get free wins cause the other teams players suck. 

    The other issue is, most players have inflated ego's and tend to think they are much better than they really are. For example, if you were to ask most players how good they are on a "bad - average - good" scale, you might get something where 80% of players say they are "above average" (clearly impossible). So when they suddenly get a label defining how bad they are, the only plausable escuse they can make up is that their team mates are far worse than they are. 

    Early man hunt deer, man with biggest club kill deer, man who kill deer get woman. Woman no hunt deer they stay in cave. Today, man build Trinity Force and do tons of damage. Woman no build triforce, have slow fingers as didn't hunt, woman have to play support. It's all in the evolutionary biology. 

  • #14

    Jup, that's basically what I was saying from start, the bias of perception is problematic.

    The thing is there are three options, either :
    -I have a problem with bias of perception, I'm just an average player
    -I'm unlucky with matchmaking
    -"Matchmaking is really made so averagely most players get 50 pct wins 50 pct losses" (note the comma, underlining the fact it's only a translation of a feeling)

    So, basically, how to know which of three is true?
    -Having a few games with "pros" (or get spectated) that would somehow analyze what you do wrong and if the amount of mistakes you do is really important and make you deserve your elo
    -For the random part, it's "easy", in the end it should tend to you getting to your average elo. And as I said, I have 550 ranked games, and I went up to 1500 back to 1200 "for no reason" more than a few times.
    -Get from Riot what parameters they use in Ranked Matchmaking. They don't only use the average elo to pair teams, that's common sense.
    (for instance, in normal games if you get reported for unskilled, they lower the average skill of the teams you end up with)
    Since the matchmaking isn't totally random, you don't play vs/with "totally random" ennemies/teammates, and so the elo doesn't represent a measure of how well you play in a totally random matchmaking, right?

    The thing is, I'm not a cry baby and I don't play ranked games because I want to be platinum and be recognized for my skills, I went over that point a long time ago. I only play ranked games because it is "one step beyond" and if I give yourself correctly to ranked, I just learn more and somehow make more fun than in other game modes.

    I just want to know if it's possible that Riot made the matchmaking to give some players better teammates than what they should deserve, and worse teammates than they should deserve.

    Last edited by MerryLane: 5/1/2012 3:07:36 PM
  • #15

    The problem is the Tribunal system really. It really doesn't achieve anything. That , and with amount of terrible advice people attempt to throw around during games towards the supposedly "bad players|, it is impossible to tell someone ingame how to improve, without rage fest ensuing.

    Another thing is, high Elo bias. Until a new idea or concept catches up in competetive play, it will be called trolling a 100 times at crap ELOs. I remember back before early jungle  ganks went mainstream i used to be trashed almost every game for starting my main junglers with boots and 3 HP pots. "streamer this starts with that, streamer Y starts with that, you must are troll go go kill yourself and i report you".

    A year went by,  lo and behold, half of people start with boots for that level 2/3 gank.

    Its the same with champions who often seem to fall out of popularity for no apperent reason. A while ago people thought Warwick was bad. Or that Jax is bad. Hell,  I remember well, Elementz had Eve with stun at lowest tier at some point.  Then she suddenly skyrocketed into tier one, and than nerf hammer came. 

     

  • #16

    I would describe "ELO-Hell" as a range of ELO where no one wants to take on the responsibility of team organizer. It is very easy to "carry" one's self out of low ELO if you:

    1. Play a champion that can carry or can have incredible influence over the game. In low brackets you can get away with running things like Support LeBlanc, so even when your AP mid role gets taken you can still influence another lane while maintaining a "carry" role and snowball the game. Play junglers, something else that low brackets lack, and dictate the game by killing the enemy and giving an advantage to your other lanes.

    2. Call shots. You need to capitalize on things in low brackets and recognize when an advantage can be taken and lead people to these objectives. Did you just kill your mid lane counterpart? Shove up to their tower and while you do this ping your jungler and bottom lane to head for Dragon. After that force the 4 newly allocated bunch of you to gank bottom or mid and take a tower. Then go buy and roam top and snowball all your lanes. After this ward the map so you can kill your weak opponents when they roam and take bigger objectives like their buffs or Baron.

    3. Ward A LOT AS EVERY ROLE! People think wards are just to not get ganked but you can ward deep in the enemy jungle so you gank roamers or the jungler depending on the role you are playing. A very volatile strategy is to ward outside of the blue wall in the nemey jungle so you can kill the AP mid when he goes to retrieve his blue. Even warding the blue brush so you can gank the jungler is powerful, after that you can go take Dragon since the Smite on the enemy team is dead. When you kill towers start warding deep in the enemy jungle because the area in which you can roam and they can safely retreat is increased and reduced respectively.

    4. Ignore the ignorance of your team. You are gonna get trolls and gonna get flamers. The best thing to do is to never press "enter" once for an entire game. The amount of times I have seen people lose cs, get ganked, or use a summoner spell accidently because they are rage typing or flaming someone is astounding and will only put fuel on the fire which will consume your teams chances at victory. Just be the silent player who plays for himself. The more you focus on your own ambitions and play and disregard things other say the faster you will rise in elo.

    5. Constructively support your team. Whenever I see someone on my team get a kill I alway say "gj mid" or "that was awesome." Small things like this make people feel good and act positive. Don't make them feel cocky saying things like "omg you raped him" a simple "gj" or "nice" will suffice. NEVER criticize your team or opponents in game, save it for the end lobby. Even if the person you want to flame has left the lobby there is a good chance one of the other 8 players is present and will comment on what you have to say, this is where you want to vent.

    6. Take a break. If the game gets too sstressful go take a break. Eat something, watch tv, fap, do something to take your mind of being angry or stressed and just come back to it.

    I hope this all helps.

    For anyone curious I got to 1926 rating in S2 and am currently at 1670 so I know how it is to lose games. I did fall from 1926 to 1525 (all the way back to gold), but I follow these principles and am slowly climbing my way back up. :)

  • #17

    Elo hell exists, thats a fact jack.

    I started to play ranked with a friend and after around 400 games we gave up at 1k3 elo because it was too stressful and we were wasting our time. Our main strategy was to pick jungler and top or jungler and mid to control the game. I think its the best because you gank over and over the same guy (remove his ward with pink or early oracle) and people will start to trash talk because he is 0-5 but retards costs us the game most of the time...

    At 1k-1k2 elo what do we have ? : players in match placement who are starting ranked (no runes or bad runes, few rune pages aka they can't adapt to their enemy, no map awareness, etc...). Everygame we were leading the team but it's fucking annoying to say the same thing every single game (moreover they dont listen) and still lose.

    Here are examples of a classic game:

    -Champ selection: People don't say "hi" "please" but : "mid" "jungle" when they are last pick. If you say : "sorry but i want to jungle too and i can pick before" the guy will troll or say "sorry i can't support" (of course he is playing ranked and can't play all roles...)
    -Champ selection: if you don't ban morgana and kassadin your mates will flame and play badly and every single death they will argue that bans were bad even if you are trying to explain why you ban X or Y champ (champs that counter your plan).
    -Champ selection: even if you are trying to explain why their top pick is bad they wont change (for example you are trying to explain that teemo with a short range and no escape mechanic is a bad pick vs a jungler lee + a gap closer top) and will say "i will win my lane, dont worry" > 0/7 after few minutes. The guy will blame you because you don't help him (yeah dude, i have to afk top and never farm so i will be level 6 after 20min :).

    -First minutes of the game: if one of your mate die 2 times due to good ganks one guy will spam and annoy the entire team leading to a 100% freelose (team will ignore > no communication and the kid will not focus on the game but will blame the entire game).
    -Early game: guys auto attacking the lane leading to easy ganks and feed for the enemy carry even if you ask them to only last hit...
    -Support who never ward the tri bush on bot lane and top lane even if you ping and type in the chat that it's very important to do so...
    -Top lane retards : "dont push your lane unless you have wards", that happen every games and the guy die to ganks then will blame our jungler, leading to flame, freelose, ...
    -When my friend and I are on bot lane even if we call for ganks like that "ok all wards removed, no flash on support and they are under our turret, can you gank please ?" the retard jungler will try to gank mid (vlad/kennen, or any other ungankable champ) or top... AND DIE
    -When you ask your team to come and drag (their jungler is top meaning its a free drag), retards will push the turret and try to dive then if it fails they will chase the low hp guy in their jungle and will die...
    -People never look at their minimap and you have to spam the fucking "ss" "mia" or else they will blame you if they die to a top gank on mid lane...
    -As a jungler i ward the enemy jungle and call for ganks on red buff but the fucking midfielder never move even if i ping the minimap 5 times then i am trapped in their jungle and die.
    -When you call for a baron when the enemy team is doing drag but retards recall and argue "man we can't do baron at level 13" ...
    -We both annonce blue/red buff, drag and baron timer but even if you say so "drag in 1min" one or two guys will go top and farm or recall...
    -As a jungler i early oracle to have map control but again, lanes are pushed and i can't gank...

    Mid game:

    People can't stop chasing a low hp guy in the enemy jungle even if you spam the "back" order. The guy will have a kill but the enemy team will have a kill with 4 assists + a bounty...
    People just right click on the ad carry/ap carry in team fights, no matter what happen aka the ad carry is running and their entire team is nuking the guy whos chasing...

     

    So what did we try to win and still fail at 1k3 elo:

    • Mid + jungler combo to snowball, results: good but one lane always fail. Most of the time it's the botlane due to bad item choices ("hello i am playing doran blade with a non sustain support vs taric + X carry > low health after 10s on lane, i must recall, i lose a lot of experience and gold" > 3v5).
    • Top + jungler combo: same
    • Agressive bot lane:

    Results : I (the carry) am fed and try to help other lanes but people are so bad (bad items, they just copy/paste builds no matter who is fed) and we lose all teamfights. Mainly because jungler and top fail they have no stuff and never initiate. Of course they will die pretty fast but dude, i am fed, i am trying to explain that i only need a couple of seconds to quadra kill but the top laner stay behind me and you can't initiate vs a fed offtank... They all run for their stats ("i am 5-0 you are 2-5 so stfu, you are bad") and don't understand that people (top and jungler) have to die in the process so ad/ap carry can do their job...

     

    • As a jungler i ward the enemy jungle (wraith and blue) but our mid can't avoid ganks because he is blind
    • We announce timers of blue, red, drag, baron and ask people "dont die, drag soon, don't die baron soon", they still manage to die like idiots...
    • We call for ganks and announce every ultimate / summoners used by enemy : jungler is retarded and gank other lanes
    • We are trying to explain wich and when they have to use their ultimate in teamfights, they never listen. For example WW is rushing the enemy carry with his ultimate when the enemy have tones of interrupt
    • We never blame our team for giving the first blood and most of the time we use /ignore all command to not see flamers :)
    • We ping the fucking minimap and call for ganks because their jungler is alone and is doing red or blue: they never move...
    • We ping the fucking drag after a kill on botlane, retards rush the turret...
    • People gave up way too early every game, even if the enemy team falls off hard late game...
    • People gave up at 10-18 or 10-20 score even if we managed to have all drags and when the enemy carry is so far...
    • People never watch their minimap
    • My friend when he plays support delays a lot his build to buy tones of ward (5 or more every recall), but people still die to ganks...
    • AD carry is retarded (0 defensive items after 40min) and always die first even if me and my friend blow every cd to help him
    • My friend is playing a strong AP (Twisted fate to gank bot a lot) mid and push the lane as much as he can so he can roam bot / top but our bot and top lane are pushed too...
    • Supports are horrible: Blitz grabbing Karthus, Kennen or any other Aoe char onto our carry / team, soraka using heal on an ignite guy, taric stunning sivir under her shield, etc...
    • When i am first pick i always have strong jungler (shen, naut) but people are so bad: when i am ulting our carry or any other retard guy with a fucking 850 absorb shield, what does the fucking carry do ? he ran when i can taunt the enemy... The two last game the enemy top had no ward and i asked my mate to "don't engage, don't die, i am coming" > 3s later "an ally has been slain"
    What can we do to leave this zone ? Create a new account, do a 4-1 during placement match to have a higher elo than our actual 1k3 elo after 400 games, lol ?
     
    This elo system is bad because i never gain elo with a 55% win ratio. When i win, i earn few elo and when i lose i lose a lot. When i was playing warcraft 3 i had the same win ratio and i was top 100 in 1v1, same with starcraft 2...
     
    I hate these guys because i can't have fun. I know i am not a pro, we can't win all games and do mistakes, but i don't act stupidly and ruin other people game. Yeah i have fun with my friend on botlane but when our retards allies engage 3v5 when we annonced in team chat : "brb, buying a GA" or "don't fight, 1min before my ultimate" they engage and blame us... How can you have fun if you got rapped every teamfight or see your allies suiciding 1 by 1...
    Last edited by k4ne: 7/7/2012 10:30:13 PM
  • #18

    Yes, if they pick triple mid it is lost, but mathematically speaking for everytime it happens to you, it also happens to the peole you play against once, leabing you neutral

     

     

    Quote from anwalen »

    I think ELOhell is exists. When you have 1-2 trollpicker in a party, who choosing useless positions (3 mid champ, zero support, 2 adcarry, 2 jungler... these are only from my few last games) its doesnt matter how good player you are. I losing a lots of time with 10+ /2-3/ 10+ stats when the match is 10+/30+ and all other teammmembers have terrible stats. Usulay some of them flaming and the others follow them.

    Other problem they doesnt counterpick because they want to play only one ot two position (usualy: "i mid" or "i mid or top ONLY"). So when the enemy first picks an ad carry what we should counterpick to keep our chance to counterpick they next pick they choosing a mid champion. Usualy they cant change because they have only 4-5 champions. In this situation very easy to make a wrong pick.

    They always ban the same champions (kassadin, morgana, shen, etc) not the ones which could counterpick their plans.

    This game is developed to win in a team not alone. And its very hard to win a match alone. Sometimes you can carry a match if the enemy is weak enough but usualy not. For example if the enemy has 2 players together who is not ablsolutely dumb they win. If your team have only 1 feeder who feed faster than the enemy they win.

    I usualy trying to help with advice my team because some of them have no clue how they champion works but the most kind advices even get the answer: "stfu noob".

    So... i realy dont know how could i help myself out of these situations.

     

     

  • #19

    I would say I'm leaning to it does exist, but I am also going to say no one is going to spend the time to find out for sure for a couple of reasons. I'll just list them...

     Anyone who says matchmaking will match you up with average blah bvlah blah, isn't really seeing the problem. While statistically it might be true there are way too many variables...

    1: People have off days. For example a good AD carry might lose to an average AD/support bottom because his support sucks. And that support, might be having an off day because even if he is a good player or maybe he was unknowingly counter picked. This isn't entirly random, if I could cite number 3, if you are first pick and at 1300ELO, its quite possible last pick on enemy side is 1250, they can still out pick you. Like wise if you are on the side that has the last pick you can counter pick, however ELO hell is about climbing a point and then falling down again. There are certain thresholds that are harder to break then others. You can very well be a 1500ELO person stuck in 1300ELO because of this threshold problem and can't carry yourself any further. What happens is just who you are paired against, I noticed in lower 1200s I was paired with 1300s and i would be last pick letting me counter pick and win my lane. I did this till around 1350 when realized i was sometimes second, but mostly 3rd and fourth. then I hit 1455, and I realized I was always first or second. And I'd get counter picked to hell even with safe picks like Kennen, and I know I'm 1500ELO at best, I was unable to beat my counter pick who was 135x and lost my lane, maybe a 1600 or 1700 ELO could have done it, but not me.

    2: A person of your skill level might get matched up against a person of lesser skill level in where the gap in in skill is more then the gap between who you are laning against meaning it comes down to kill, and they will get more of it, and you will lose.

    3: Even if you try to go a safe pick like Yorick for example, the enemy team can still counter pick you, even someone 100 or 200 ELO lower then you might be able to beat you in lane if they counter pick you, like I'm not that good, but I played Lee Sin against a Riven who was unknowingly 1550 ELO, which is quite a bit higher then my ELO.

    4: Lot's of people blame lag, sometimes its bullshit, sometimes its not. Tiny glitches can destroy your day too. One time I was playing Galio mid, and the game would not let me put down wards. I literally could not ward. Another time I was playing Lee Sin unaware that his q was glitched, I died at least 4 times cause he froze in mid air and teleported suddenly for some reason. This is another random factor without being 100% random since usually certain types of skills are glitched against you, I mean you don't see Annie players worrying about Q teleporting them across the map or something.

    5: Maybe you are tired. Maybe you work harder then others. Maybe you are hungry and don't know it. Maybe you have Parkinsons, or something. And this isnt exactly random either, since it has been shown certain demographics and what not have a higher chance of being in certain situations then others. Maybe you are one of those demographics.

    Either way it is hard to say if ELO hell exists or not since there are too many things you have to take in mind to prove or disprove it. i am leaning to it does exist, but I cannot be 100% sure.

    (And yes I am agnostic, and I despise Aethists and religious people who are very in your face and unaccepting of the fact I really don't think we can say a deity exists either way.)

  • #20

    ELO Hell exists, but there's no such thing at being stuck "under" your ELO. Either you belong in that ELO or you haven't played enough games to get to your actual ELO. The reason why I say ELO Hell exists is because with a bit of bad luck in your first few games it can take a LONG time to get yourself to your true ELO. It's also possible that playing with bads too much will actually make you worse. So yeah, people might not be happy that they need to play another 200 games to get to their true ELO, and thus call it ELO hell (that and there are a lot of people who are just plain bad but have massive egos).

  • #21

    Is it possible for a person who was stuck at 1500-1600 for 200 games to play decently at 1900+? By saying that I mean myself. I've been stuck at 1500-1600 the whole life. Never above, never under. Then friend came in. We duo'd. He's 2,3k. Boom. There I am at 1900. And, well, all I gotta say is that I am not failing there. Now, you are all fighting over this number of what you call ELO. HOW does it describe your skills when a 1500s guy can play well in 1900? And be rising on his own? Please, be free to explain this to me, as for now I am confused. 

    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR, there is such a little difference between 1500-1900 that any player stuck at this "ELO hell" can perform well at any number given.

    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR, there is a lot of unlucky games for that 1500s guy to rise to 1900. But now that he's been "boosted" he can start being awesome? 

    Explain me, why is it like that. Maybe I deserved to be at 1900 all along? I did have 55,7pct win rate. Maybe the friend just hastened the long climb I was destined to? In conclusion I want to repeat myself by saying that if you are stuck at 1500s don't be upset. You might potentially be skilled to play at early platinum levels just fine.

    Your posts are the equivalent of me walking into a church, telling the priest God doesn't exist, then pissing in the holy water for dramatic effect.

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