Reign of Gaming

Well, there's a difference between being "completely viable", "somewhat viable", and "never viable." Sivir and Corki are unviable because they fall in a category that's "strictly worse" than another ADC's, due to their kit overlap with other ADC's. Why play Sivir when Varus does a similar job of being an ADC-caster hybrid with lane dominance and AoE, yet does it better, for example.

Ezreal doesn't really fall into this because there isn't really an ADC that has the same advantages over him. Sure, some ADC's have escape and annoying poke, but none of them are as reliable or as spammable as Ezreal's. The question then becomes how large is this niche and is it universal. The most overpowered champions tend to have very wide niches, but that still means there's room for smaller niches, hence why gimmicks are even a thing in tournaments. Remember, jungle Ez into mass early game pushing was a thing during the NA LCS promotion tournament.

I was always under the impression that it was a bit silly to compare Ezreal damage to Varus or Draven damage because they simply have different advantages. Draven WILL outdamage most of the other ADC's, for example, but that hardly makes him the end-all-be-all ADC for example.

Ezreal has the advantages of having the most spammable poke and the most absurdly annoying escape ever. This means that you don't have to run as much of a tank line to protect Ezreal, meaning you can make up some of the damage by running a more damage less peel oriented front-line.

Then again, I don't play ADC. I play the person that always dives the ADC and then flips my table when I get kited out, so maybe that's just my perspective on what works the best against players like me.

This is basically why Riot just threw up their hands and said "Fuck it, melee ADC's are gonna go assassinish now." That's basically their solution. It's a good one in terms of balance, but you absolutely know people are going to complain about it.

It's a good thing Riot agrees with you. Watch their patch preview and Morello straight up says "Yeah, all these bs item starts really show that we need to improve starting itemization, we just hate the current starts so much that we want to nerf them before working on more itemization."

GP has inherent movement speed boost and good movement speed. Plus, if you're paying attention, DIana's Q isn't a hard projectile to dodge in the first place because the speed is a bit on the slower side.

Yeah, see, this wasn't an anti-lack of skill article as much as a lack-of-winning-drive article, so yeah, sorry uPWarrior, your comment doesn't do anything here.

You say dart-board style testing, but you do realize that they get pro feedback, PBE testing, etc., right? Before Season 3, they even had people come down and play Season 3 and say "How does this look", etc. It's easy to criticize companies when they make mistakes, but it's hardly credible unless you're part of the process yourself, especially when they specifically said during Preseason "We expect imbalances, that's why we have this period". The foresight of a team or a small testing client doesn't really match the hivemind of the League player base.

Quote from Krebstarr »

I'm replying to a written post, where all I have to refer to are the words in front of me & you're calling me out for taking the writer literally?  (Also recently watched the video:  pretty sure "entitled" is what the writer intended)  I wouldn't let the writer off for semantics in this case anymore than a bunch of junglers would let it slide when a mid says he's entitled to blue.

Furthermore, this was only a specific example I provided because the OP and others were claiming all the answers to my post were included in the first post itself (they're not).  I had many more issues with the OP that were included in my first post, and these are issues that don't depend on the jungler "incorrectly applying these positive (lol) factors".

 Lastly, the OP himself sounds like one such jungler, so I think my tone (which you've correctly identified) is appropriate in this case.  I also happen to think lane tax is never optimal play, regardless of that jungler's judgment of the gank's success, however I was simply arguing why the OP's justifications were wrong, not why lane taxing is wrong in an absolute.

Yes, I'm calling you out for taking a writer literally because it's a stupid thing to do. What, should every article come out and put on the top "DISCLAIMER: THIS IS SITUATIONAL"? Do you blame your Mobafire guide when it turns out that your skill order was more conditional than you thought? Or when you bought an item that was nerfed last patch even though the guide is outdated? Excuse the author for expecting their audience to not be completely braindead.

Further more, why don't you point out a factor that is actually literally incorrect rather than a bastardization of a statement?

For example, where did anywhere did the jungler say "Don't help the lanes"? What they said was "This lane cannot be helped if their player is completely dumb or crushed, don't blame the jungler for that." Is that so unreasonable when a support goes "I can't help this AD carry, I need to go roam and make plays elsewhere" or when a top goes "I'm abandoning this tower, I can't hold this lane"? It's the same thing for a jungler.

Don't ping the jungler? Sure, if you're taking the article literally, you could say "Herpderp, don't ever ping ever." What they're talking about is when your ping is the "OMG, I'm pushed up, please gank for me" or some such thing like that. First, remember that they're talking about junglers that are more skilled than normal. These junglers ARE paying attention and while a reminder is fine, it's not like they appreciate you telling their job for them. Do you ping the support each time the ADC needs a heal? Do you ping mid each time to tell them to push up and roam? The junglers also are in a similar position.

If you don't ward? Yes, junglers should ward but their warding abilities are extremely limited. If the laners get ganked, they should have bought a ward or at least made sure that the jungler would ward for them. If the laner didn't make it clear to the jungler that they couldn't get a ward and then blame the jungler for not ganking cause they didn't buy a ward themselves, who's fault is that? The junglers can only supplement wards for the three lanes with how limited their gold flow is.

And the smite issue? Stonewall said that right in the post when you should give your jungler crap for missing smite! That's what they mean by you being dense. Sometimes, accidents happen, cooldowns are burnt unexpectedly, and sometimes, you just cannot prevent smite steals from happening without some extreme effort. Do you give every person crap for missing skill shots? That's technically their job! Do you give your support crap for trying their best to heal you out of a situation, but to no avail? That's their job! Do you give your jungler crap when they warn you "Hey, I don't have smite because an objective unexpectedly opened up?" No, it's impossible to predict every situation! It's the same thing.

And the final part, the jungler not helping you to win lane? That's the argument of dumb people. I'm sorry, but it is. If you're expecting every writer to handhold the audience, then you're just nitpicking. *raises hands* You're right, if you want to take it that way, that statement could mean such a thing, but that's like saying "mid laners should push the lane" applies to every situation. And if you're going to insist on saying that, no one can hold a conversation with you. It's that simple.

Quote from Krebstarr »

 

For an example, I'll consider your cases where taxing the lane is OK:

-pushing:  This is bull if the laner is capable of pushing by themself.

-babysitting:  I ceded this point in my original post.

-key item:  You're not entitled to anything.  It's a courtesy that will help your team, just like donating buffs to laners (hence my comparison).

-laner botches gank:  This is just blame laying, and I highly doubt junglers are always good judges of why ganks fail.  

-useless lane:  Again, I question the decision making that comes to this point.  Jungler gets mad about whatever dumb things they may (see the OP), decides your lane is trash (prolly doesn't help you), then if you lose your lane...this justifies the jungler taking your farm.  Just to reiterate, nothing here entitles anyone to anything.

Pushing: When two people push, the pushing goes faster, no? Faster pushing means faster time to return to lane, less time for the enemy jungler to come and cover, more damage to do to tower. Is that so difficult to understand?

Key Item: If you want to split hairs, of course junglers aren't entitled to anything. That's like saying Orianna isn't entitled to my Blue buff. Or you're not entitled to a gank. You're just arguing semantics. If you want to really be really nitpicky about the wording, then how about this: the correct thing to do here IS to have junglers take their minion tax unless the lane is actually behind and/or is a champion who needs the lane to not be pushed.

Laner Botches Gank: No, that's not called lying, that's called situational judgment. Further more, you're missing the point. A jungler devotes a lot of resources to ganks while the laner gets to tug around the jungler by their whim. You COULD say that the jungler shouldn't take minions, but considering that the jungler might fall behind and thus affect the other lanes...yeah. Really, junglers leave minions after failed ganks out of courtesy, but if the laner does something incredibly stupid, we're gonna take minions, not purely out of rage, because we need the goddamn gold to keep up so we can try again.

Useless Lane: Again, you missed the point.. Yes, when a lane is behind, the amount at which they're behind is subjective. That's why triage is a last resort for completely and utterly screwed lanes. It's when the lane is clearly, without a doubt, 90% of the LoL population would agree, screwed. And also why this is a skill that needs to be learned. No, junglers cannot perfectly access this state and if they prematurely start taking minions, it's the junglers fault. That doesn't mean that the statement itself is incorrect. It means the jungler incorrectly applied it. It's like when a laner hears "You should take towers" and then proceed to over commit and get themselves ganked because they did one "positive" thing without the skills and/or knowledge to correctly apply it.

In fact, I think this is entirely what your problem is. This isn't a "junglers are entitled" issue or anything. You're just lashing out against the fact that junglers often incorrectly apply these positive factors and then end up screwing your lane. You then assume that these factors are incorrect. That's a problem of misdirecting your focus.

So, in other words, what you're saying is that you, as a Vlad, can bait any opponent into over-committing so that the jungler can gank? Congratu-fucking-lations, you're an amazing laner and you should give the jungler crap for not being able to follow up on your ability. It's really too bad that absolutely no junglers with half-a-brain actually believe that your laning is that amazing and that you don't get hit by the opposing jungler every once in a while or make a mistake and get yourself killed every once in a while.

Your problem is that you're blaming the jungler for having pre-concieved notions by dressing the laner up with your own pre-concieved notions. No laner is seriously that good that they can just activate "global taunt mode" and get someone to over commit  Some opponents are smart. Some allies are dumb. Enemies have their own ability to think and their own tics, so expecting that ganks will go smoothly all the time just due to some flashy "baiting" is extremely stupid. Ganks cannot always be forced without extreme risk. You might want to get your stupid ass killed because you want to make a risky bait, but me? No, I have no reason to jump off a cliff with you. 

As for the Fiora vs Olaf lane you presented, OF COURSE that's what a jungler should do. That's not even close to what the video was saying. But don't expect the jungler to constantly hand-hold your ass if you can't help the jungler do his job in the gank. If I'm ganking and I see that you have no CC and no burst, don't expect anything more than a damage gank. I'll try my damn hardest, but it won't happen. Not only that, but your demand for a damage gank now just cost potential time that I could have put into ganking the other lanes. In other words, not only has your selfishness in picking a weak lane wasted my time, that time waste has come to harm the other lanes as well.