Reign of Gaming

Getting tired of saying this, but I AM keeping up with the thread guys. Just been busy this past few days when I intended to go through and do the replies. Will get to it soon hopefully.

P.S. I'll do the quick and easy one right above me now - @Ziilis - that is not helpful in the slightest. Rationale, as full as possible, is what's important. I don't operate on a vote system because two million people saying the wrong thing doesn't make it right; I don't know you and therefore have no reason to care what your opinion is since I have no idea whether to respect your judgement or not.

Either give me an argument I can try to agree with or one I can try to argue against. Anything else is pretty much pointless.

Given that these are not Riot-sanctioned forums and no Riot employees post here, it seems unlikely.

Just a note to say I managed to roll Lissandra for the first time just now.

She definitely has potential, but her range seems beyond constricting. She has next to no poke potential unless the enemy are napping; Q range is miniscule, and even with a Zyra on the enemy team I was finding it borderline impossible to get a Q onto an enemy with or without shards.

Once early game was past, though, her strength became immediately apparent. Lissandra is able to use her kit incredibly well on the defensive, effectively allowing her to peel for the back line and burst the incoming targets simultaneously. She's also able to dive the enemy back line with success, effectively jumping in on the back of an initiate (in this case Malphite) to either stun up a key target or give herself a pseudo-Hourglass shortly after throwing out an AoE root and a nice chunk of damage.

I do suspect my team's comp was pretty much perfect in this case, as not only did I have only one enemy diver to consider (Riven) but I had a Malphite to follow up with dives, and also a Thresh to allow me to escape after a solo-dive into the enemy back line.

Overall, I think my T3 placement is accurate. Her damage is very high but pretty short ranged, and her utility is hampered by long cooldowns on her utility spells and more range issues. If she's going anywhere she's heading further up, but I don't currently see her as on par with the current T2s. I also feel that hard CC on the enemy back line (e.g. Fiddle) could seriously mess with her dive potential and relegate her to a defensive mage position.

Lot of fun to play though.

Side note : I started Chalice with an amp tome and pot in preparation for an early Grail; this was sidelined by a Rod of Ages once I realised I'd die too quickly without a buffer. Once RoA was complete I went back and finished the Grail along with Ionian boots, then headed for a Deathcap and Hourglass to finish. This was against a burst-heavy team of Riven, LeBlanc, Zyra, Cassiopeia and Katarina.

And now to wrap up.

Well guys, this is going nicely. I feel we're getting somewhere here. I have a couple of things to say at this point:
First, I must apologise for not being here more frequently. This is a big task, and if I'm perfectly honest, I'm only human; some days after work, I can't quite stomach coming on here and debating for several hours. When you get right down to it, the only way this list can operate is if everyone is posting to say 'you're wrong about this because...', and whilst I accept that that's the only way to go about the list, it's not always something you want to hear of a weekday evening :P
Second, please note that the following champions are (still) under consideration. This means they have a strong potential to be moved in the near future; further, that I would appreciate further analysis and comments, particularly from those who haven't spoken about them yet.
Trundle, Poppy, Caitlyn.

Further, I would appreciate more comments regarding Morde. I believe that my previous analysis is accurate, but that I haven't really considered Panzerkaiser - i.e. tanky Morde. On Rift I have no respect for Panzerkaiser, but in ARAM it has to be said that he's a lot more effective at drawing fire - and in particular, that his ultimate is more likely to become a ghost in this environment as burst is typically more focused.

Thanks. Keep it coming.

#166 - @Nagasis - Please see above for my argument as to why offensive -v- defensive play is preferable. Furthermore, whilst initiation is useful (i.e. Hecarim), it's only as useful as the champion behind it. Thus, to compare - Amumu initiates with bandage and the entire enemy team has to be worried. He's throwing out hefty %health AoE while he's there, coupled with decent damage Tantrums - his damage is high enough that you can't ignore him, yet hitting him gives him more Tantrums. His base survivability is fairly high with his E passive. And then that ult. Then compare to Hecarim - decent initiate, but that's it. He's basically either running in (not instant and no stun attached) or ulting in, then doing less damage potential than Amumu, whilst being less fundamentally tanky (which can change based on damage dealt during W), and having a less potent AoE CC to boot.
That's basically why Hecarim is so low. He can get in and initiate, but once he has done he's not as tanky as other tanks and doesn't do as much damage either - he can build damage, yes, but so can they and they'll still be tankier than him. Please see above for Trundle discussion.

---A note once again on the way I am operating this list---

I'm posting this primarily to again defend my reasons for operating the list as I am - i.e. I have placed champions where they're placed, and I keep them there until I'm convinced they should be moved. Certainly there's some criticism coming in from this area.

There's a good reason I do this - if I move on a whim, the tier list will change every thirty seconds and basically be useless for everything. I am far from perfect, and have never pretended to be all-knowing - but the fact is, I am fairly experienced at analysis of this nature, and I believe I am capable of both a) operating a -reasonably- unbiased listing and b) accepting when I am proven or given strong evidence that I am wrong. This has been borne out by the fact that several champions have moved their tier positions, but only *after* significant discussion has been conducted surrounding that champion.

Yes, if I think you're wrong, I will say so. I will argue and continue to do so until I am shown to be wrong. So if you think I'm wrong and I'm disagreeing, don't think that I'm biased, arrogant, or otherwise insistent on my list being perfect. Instead, simply consider that maybe you're not putting your points across effectively enough - you're not going over all the important points, not taking into consideration the entire kit or a comparison with others in the tier you're talking about. Or maybe you ARE wrong.

In any case, if you're worried about a placement you really think is incorrect, take a quick scan at the early pages of this thread and see my discussion with A2 - he knows how to argue his case, and he knows how to cover all the salient points. If you want your best shot of changing my mind, that's the way to go about it.

#158 - @KulliKekkonen - Re : Heimerdinger. Heimer is in a weird position, but strangely his kit is ideally suited to ARAM in my opinion - he doesn't make T1 based primarily on the issues you mention. However, his poke is actually pretty easy to use once you get used to it simply because there are so few creeps around; the rest of his kit is more or less entirely limited to a) defensive play or b) pushing. The beauty of it is that winning an ARAM comes down to poking, pushing, and surviving when dived.
I will be the first to argue that Heimer is a strong champion; equally, I agree with a lot of what you've said in regards to his weaknesses, but all they really do is deny him a T1 spot.

Re : AP/AD/Tank lists - this is an idea which again runs into the issues I outline above regarding multiple separate lists. We also have to consider that teams in ARAM never have a specific composition - giving a tank one listing in a tank-only listing is again misleading because different tanks are stronger when they're the solo tank for their team, if they have a dive partner, or if they somehow rolled five tanks/bruisers. I don't honestly think it's a viable option to do, even if I had the time and willpower.

#160 - @Raikaria - Re : Morde/Yorick. Again, I'm back to pointing out how little I am willing to operate anything based on win rates. If a champion is strong enough to be moved, they should be strong enough that logical analysis and reasoned argument can show me that they should be moved. So please, don't try to sway me because 'the win rate is high!' - make your points and argue them.
Please note that Poppy has now been placed under consideration as stated above. Thus, she may be moved shortly depending on the outcome of discussion.

-Avoiding the whole heal argument despite my twitching theorycrafting glands. Not really on topic, gents.-

#142 - @Insanitism - Re : Fiora. My response has pretty much been covered by those already posting, along with my previous notes on her - she has no poke, no utility, basically no sustain (her passive can basically be ignored). Her damage potential is decent if she can a) get to melee range, and b) stay there without dying, but this is borderline impossible in the ARAM environment and certainly she's no better at it than the rest of the T5s.

#147 - @Nagisalw - Whilst you are entirely correct, this was considered when putting Sona into her original, and her new, positions in the list. Honestly I didn't mention it because it's overall a pretty small aspect of her kit and I really don't have time to comment on everything. She's also already T1, so nothing really changes. Nevertheless, I do not disagree :P

#150 - @pagan4life - My purpose in doing this list was twofold. Firstly, it could be helpful to players who enjoy ARAM more than regular LoL and therefore want to make their champion selection choices based on ARAM rather than Rift - this is reasonable for casual players who aren't looking to go into ranked. And secondly, many of us on these boards find discussion to be enjoyable, and creating a functioning tier list is something we can all get stuck into happily. So yeah, that's the point I had in mind.

-Skipping over the whole Sona debate because frankly it's redundant-

#134 - @Raikaria - this is why tier lists aren't moderated based on anecdotal evidence. I could equally say that every Swain I've seen in ARAM for two months has done nothing for his team (which would be close to the truth, come of think of it). Hell, the past three times I've gotten Ezreal my team has lost horribly and I've not been able to do much to change that - that doesn't stop Ez being strong.

But I digress. To respond to your actual argument - gold income is pretty much flat across the board in ARAM simply because kills are worth half that of Rift and assists worth even less because they're almost always shared with others. Meanwhile, ambient gold gain is significantly higher than on Rift. Effectively this means it's a lot harder for Swain to pick up a real gold advantage over anyone outside of a general team advantage - and Swain really NEEDS that gold advantage. Without it, his defences simply don't scale up to the point that he can actually survive using his ultimate, as it just doesn't heal for enough to survive enemy champions' damage output. Still haven't gotten around to testing him as a glass cannon mage though - all my analysis has been done for him using the standard survival-AP build you see on Rift.

#135 - @guidooo4 - This is actually a pretty good point in a way, but apart from anything not feasible. All the tier analysis has been done from a 'good player' perspective - i.e. capable of using a champion's kit effectively, but still factoring in ease of use and potential to screw up. This is reasonable, I believe.

The issue with running multiple lists based on champion skill is that high skill with a champion is something it's difficult to really analyze. Certainly, whilst I'd be comfortable setting up lists for 'low' and 'medium' skill brackets, I definitely wouldn't have the capacity to operate or arbitrate over a list for 'high' skill levels other than on the champions I know best - and this is true for almost everyone. Add to that the logistical issues (it's a nightmare for me to moderate just one list, let alone three) and I'm afraid it's not really feasible; having multiple lists operated by different people is a possibility, but only with a lot of communication between each author to maintain consistency across the board.
Furthermore, doing so would bring up definition issues, i.e. at what point is someone considered to be high, medium, low skill, etc. etc. Essentially, it wouldn't be possible.

Re : The list as a whole. I would agree that I prioritize offensive potential over defensive potential, but for good reason. Essentially, you are correct when you say that typically one team comes out with poke advantage and forces the enemy onto the defensive. However, the reason I would argue offense wins out in either scenario is because frankly, people either don't know how to win ARAM or don't care enough to try hard. Two scenarios here : with poke advantage or without. If you have poke advantage, you don't really worry too much about flat out defensive potential *IF YOU PLAY TO WIN*. I say 'if' because most ARAM teams don't do what they should to win - they poke to kill. This is something I'll be bringing up in an article in the future, but the bare bones is, if you want to win you should poke to cripple but not kill.

The reasoning goes, if the entire enemy team is on 10% but not dead, they cannot stop you taking a tower. They can initiate, sure, and you might lose a couple of members to turret aggro, but the superior poke team *will* win that engagement, and because they're already sat at the tower, it's going to fall. By contrast, if you poke to kill, yeah you'll probably end up with more gold - but the enemy team is more likely to be in a position at any given point in the game to engage and turn around a teamfight win. They'll be able to spend their gold, and come back to lane not only with extra items but *at full health*, and probably with some potions too.

Thus, I would argue that if the game is played to win the team with superior poke shouldn't need to worry about defenses because their opponents should always be too weak to challenge them.
If meanwhile your team is inferior in poke, as you say, you're looking to initiate. If you don't, you're just going to eat poke, give away towers, and slowly bleed out. At which point, defensive potential takes a serious back-seat to offensive potential because you need to GET IN THERE - there's no point keeping Volibear (or whoever) off your back line if all that does is let you disengage from a 1 for 1 with your entire team almost dead.

#130 - @Ellestar - See my previous posts for why I disregard win rates for anything but moderately useful evidence. I don't actually disagree with your post for the most part (other than Nasus' ult - as AP he dies before it can be useful, as a bruiser it simply doesn't do enough unless the enemy team is significantly beefy). However, Nasus' position is something which should be discussed on his kit's merits as a whole, and not with reference to an arbitrary win rate.

#131 - @Sagethyme - Off topic, but I got Lissandra the other day. Someone dodged at the last second... I almost cried. Sometimes having every champion in the game is a serious curse ._.

-Skipping over the discussion regarding ADCs as I've covered everything I would say above-

#124 - @Jaxsed - Re : Anivia. Wall is only effective at doing any of that if levelled, and doing so hurts her damage and pick potential. Further, her Q has good potential but such laughably slow projectile speed that you're unlikely to get anything major from it unless a) used in a defensive situation, or b) thrown at a moron. Her kit overall is very strong in the environment, but just doesn't have the sheer power of the T1s in any single area - it lacks the poke of Jayce, the utility of Sona, etc.
Yi already discussed above.

#129 - @TRoosevelt - Re : Trundle. A couple of notes in response; firstly, I would disagree that Trundle excels at being a solo tank/melee because of his lack of significant CC and the fact that he wants (albeit doesn't necessarily need) at least one damage item in his build. I would rather argue that Trundle excels at being a secondary tank, *against* solo-tank teams; he works best as a 'dive buddy' with someone with CC, or as a peel to allow a CC-heavy tank to dive, and works best when his ultimate can strip the only defensively-built enemy of their protection.

Pillar is stronk. This has been covered, although I don't disagree with anything you say on this. Similarly, his ultimate's strength is as discussed. However, I refer you to my above arguments regarding Trundle, in response to Sagethyme. Trundle, as you say, requires specific team members to be behind him; lack of flexibility is a serious weakness in ARAM when you can't count on anything where your team is concerned. I don't disagree that Trundle has the potential to be extremely useful - my issue is whether he's useful enough in these situations to overcome the weak early-mid game common to all ARAM melees, and whether he's capable of scraping together enough strength to be a valid team member even when his team comp isn't what he wants it to be.

Regarding your comparisons : Shen : The difference between taunt and Pillar is that when taunt lands, it will always do the same thing - it will always lock the target up for the duration. By contrast, Pillar is more versatile - it can be used in SO many ways very effectively - but it can't always lock up a specific target when it needs to, particularly if they're in the middle of a lane or have a dash.

Volibear : I don't disagree, but we're not just looking at comparisons in a 'could X beat Y?' way. You have to ask yourself whether Volibear can fulfil the tank role more effectively that Trundle *in the majority of games*, and given Trundle's reliance on specific comp setups I believe that to be the case. Yes, if Voli and Trundle are the sole tanks for opposing teams, Trundle will wreck Voli - but if you slap each of them down in a random game, as will happen in ARAM, I believe Volibear is more likely to be successful in his role.

Lee Sin : Effectively two major advantages. Firstly, he can reposition so amazingly effectively. Lee can engage on a whim, fight until he needs to leave, and then leave - no issues. By contrast, Trundle needs the enemy to be in a specific position for him to initiate, and he needs to basically be allowed to walk away to escape. And secondly, Lee's CC is actually pretty strong for a single spell in ARAM, as it allows him to displace a key target and only that target, whilst also potentially stunning others as well. Again, Trundle is more effective in his niche than Lee is in his, but Lee is more capable of fitting into a random team and doing well than Trundle is.