Reign of Gaming

Quote from registermyaccount »

Mostly for the cooldown tbh. Most of the time, if you pop Barrier properly, you'll use all of it. If the enemy team sees that you used Barrier, and they don't attack you, then good job, you just got pseudo-invulnerability for 2s. But the difference between a 3.5 min cd and a 5 min cd is a lot, plus the fact that you'll be ignited a lot late game, especially if the enemy team sees that you took heal.

This is indeed a pretty good part of Barrier, the psychological effect is pretty OP ;). 

Not to mention the fact that tower dives happen a lot now. If somebody gets tower dived, there's a huge change that you'll get ignited, and since most dives take only a couple of seconds, 2s of shield is a lot.

With Summoner's Resolve on Heal only, Barrier will shield 20 more than Heal.
With Summoner's Resolve on Barrier only, Barrier will shield 40+5*level more than Heal.

And I find it sorta redundant to say these... after all, the Heal and Barrier masteries are on the same point, so it doesn't matter. You can just say that Barrier will shield for 40 hp more, which I find to be a lot in the laning phase.

I told this, because I personally felt like Barrier's Summoner's Resolve is pretty bad (20 extra shield doesn't sound amazing to me), while I felt that Heal has a pretty good Summoner's Resolve (5 HP per level, which is also available after putting Heal on Cooldown, meaning you can lifesteal up to a higher cap etc.) However, if you decide to take Barrier instead of Heal, and don't take the Summoner's Resolve and take the 2 MR instead, you might want to actually prefer the Heal with Summoner's Resolve. Therefore, if I take Barrier, I will take Summoner's Resolve. (Does this reasoning sound logical?) 

But I'm still mostly indifferent, the adc's I play most are Graves and Draven, which both have high potentials for kills in lane, so I take Ignite usually. I've been playing Vayne recently too, I normally run Cleanse on her, but I'm gonna try out Heal/Barrier + Flash and see how it goes. 

Quote from Misticaltom »

Barrier on Rengar's amazing....it lets me jungle with ease.

 

Don't do it tho, unless you want to cheese kills in a non-serious games.

This is probably one of the cases that Heal would actually be better. I don't know if jungle creeps can kill your entire Barrier or not (2 seconds is pretty short), but if they cannot, it is actually better to take Heal. It's better for the team this way. 

Quote from Nyxilis »

It's all about CD time for me, and that while yes heal does heal others you are usually the one who is going to be focused because you are the adc. And despite the bot lane not always having ignite, it still seems to happen often enough to get me. Tristanas, or very aggressive supports having it. I can't tell you how many times it has saved me vs twitch timing it just before his e.

Yep, CD times are pretty important. Against Tristana, MF and Varus I would absolutely not want Heal, since the chance of being Grievous Wounded is just so high, however the thing about Twitch could also be done with Heal (If it is not on the 90 second longer cooldown). 

Quote from zodyr »

And how doesn't heal take advantage of your armour/mr?

True this

One of the biggest selling points for heal (at least for me) is the fact that it gives you free hp while it's on cd. It's not much, but it's something.

Yeah the Summoner's Resolve for Heal is pretty amazing, but for Barrier it really feels crappy to me, since it is only on usage. 

Hey guys,

So I've been wondering why AD Carries take Barrier these days instead of Heal. So here are the values of the spells and I'll discuss it below:

Heal - 300 second cooldown
Heal heals oneself for 75 + 15 × level and every allied unit for the same amount. 
With the mastery Summoner's Resolve, you will get 5 HP per level as a bonus stat (90 HP at level 18, which is slightly more than 3 mastery points in Durability) 

Barrier - 210 second cooldown

Shields your champion for 95 + (20 × level) for 2 seconds.
With the mastery Summoner's Resolve, your Barrier will shield for an additional 20 HP

So I'll state the most obvious differences first:

• Heal also heals your teammates
• Barrier has 90 seconds less cooldown
• Ignite halves Heal's effect, while it does not halve Barrier's effect
• Barrier only shields for 2 seconds, while the health gained by Heal will stay.

Now for the exact differences: 

Without the Summoner's Resolve mastery, Barrier will shield 20+5*level more than Heal.
With Summoner's Resolve on Heal only, Barrier will shield 20 more than Heal.
With Summoner's Resolve on Barrier only, Barrier will shield 40+5*level more than Heal.
With Summoner's Resolve mastery on both, Barrier will shield 40 more than Heal. 

In short, it Barrier will always shield more than Heal, however it is only for 2 seconds. And therefore could cause you to be outplayed. 

So on to the conclusive thoughts:

• Heal gets reduced by half by Ignite and Grievous Wounds  -- However, most bot lanes don't take Ignite anymore. Be aware when taking this spell against Miss Fortune, Varus and Tristana though. Also, in the late game you will probably be targeted by Ignites.
• Barrier always shields more than Heal -- However, the differences in late game are minimal, so Barrier is better by a lot early.
• Heal heals permanently, while Barrier only shields for 2 seconds -- This is one of the most important points to me. More often than not, you will be using Barrier with it not being entirely popped after the 2 seconds, allowing for a lot of situations when Heal would've been better.
• 90 seconds cooldown less on Barrier -- Good players will abuse this. 
• Heal allows you to (temporarily) save allies. 

I would personally like to see Heal a little more often, since I feel it's underplayed without a real good reason. 

If you see any flaws in my argumentation, feel free to leave a comment :) 

Quote from RecklessTrials »

Strengths: Graves has the highest base AD out of all the ADC's making his early game aggression very strong if starting with a long sword, Dorans Blade (my least favorite since its sustain nerf), or a Red Pot (my favorite starting item since it allows 6 health potions). Did not know about red pot start bot o.O, sounds pretty good tbh. He has a gap closer and an AoE slow which also makes all targetin unable to see past it's circle. He also has a strong passive which allows him to be pretty tanky in team fights if coupled with a Runic Bulwark or Aegis or just in lane since it gives him extra armor and MR making him resilient against ganks and giving him a good 1v1 advantage if ever left to trade with another ADC. His Q and R are both very high damage spells. Tarics new kit makes his auto attacks do more damage therefore making graves jobs easier. As a combo, taric can initiate with a stun then shatter and if graves is too far he can dash in for a POINT BLANK buckshot dealing a massive amount of damage. Don't forget the Armor Reduction given by Tarics Shatter. This could easily force a lane to go back or can be followed by slow helping graves get a kill.

Weaknesses: Graves' quickdraw has a very high cooldown Cooldown gets reduced on every basic attack though and a short distance so it isn't the most reliable escape ability. He lacks good poke damage or long range burst so he can't make someone back off while running and getting in their face for that buckshot could get him killed. Taric has the worst heal out of any support (Nami, Soraka, Alistar, Sona, Karma) so it isn't a reliable heal. I almost forgot, Graves has 305 base movement speed (my area code huehuehue) making him EXTREMELY prone to ganks even with first tier boots. Graves also lacks steroids Quickdraw boosts ASPD. This doesn't make him item dependent though. 

Yes it seems like the strengths outweigh the weaknesses but the fact that Graves is easily ganked is VERY bad. And Taric can't help him because his heal is pityfull. Is this combo still as strong as it used to be? Comment and let me know what you think! I like feedback so if you have any way that you think I should format these posts let me know! I don't get into champion counters because I belive skill is much more noticeable and outweighs counters. Also leave suggestions for Bot Lane combos you'd like to see in these posts. I do ADC and support combos I dont want to see dual bruiser bot as a suggestion. Hope you enjoyed this post!

Personally, I don't like Taric as much as before. W doesn't give as much armor to teammates anymore and his only peel is a high CD stun. 

Quote from StViers »

Very nice theorycrafting (!), but a couple of things (some kinda mentioned already, some not)

1. The build changes from champ to champ, even within the same role (carry, melee ad, ap, etc). Trist doesn't need as much attack speed because of her q, for example). Bruisers with spells that effect towers (especially rengar, that also gets an attackspeed buff from it) should build CDR into their kits as well--looking at how to maximize damage on champs like that would be awesome as well.

2. Trinity Force is a waste of money for split pushing, unless you have a champ with a spammable spell that doesn't require a target. Even if you do, the extra base ad you get as damage is probably not worth the cost, when you could just have another 100 ad on every autoattack. This is just a personal grudge, as all too often I see champs like wukong/irelia get trinity force and then proceed to sit in lane rather than fight, and it helps them push towers not at all, except once from the decoy/hiten style activation.

3. I think you are undervaluing SotD. getting 3 autos in 1 towershot is really big for finishing them fast, even if the crit isn't too useful.

4. Aegis/Bulwark is great on split push champs like Singed that rely on minions to put in work, or if you needed that 1 defensive item, as it means your minions can't really lose the fight, especially with you around.

5. Backdooring isn't the same as split-pushing. Backdooring is taking out towers/inhibitors without a minion wave around. Split pushing is where you go with minions, forcing the other team to either man up and 5v4, or send someone to stop you. Small nitpick, as people have used back-dooring wrong often enough that it's proper (like 'irregardless' - *vomits*) but I'm a traditionalist. >_>

1. I did tell in the PS part for example if you have an AS buff, one would build more AD oriented and vice versa, I did indeed forget to tell about Cooldown Reduction, I will add this later.

2. Well, it's just that you need to use 1 spell every 2 seconds, so that means that you can have either 1 spell with 2 sec CD, 2 spells with 4 sec CD each or 3 spells with 6 seconds CD. It's true that this might not be the best way, but it's a pretty good item. For example Irelia could use it with her ult 4 times, W and E and if the tower still is not down, that would make one big tower, Well, for this reason, there's also a part without Trinity Force in the original spreadsheet. 

3. Sword of the Divine is strange and hard to calculate. It gives amazing dueling skills, and it kinda bursts the tower down, but the problem is there is a cooldown on it and the time it is on cooldown it gives nothing at all. 

4. I haven't tested it myself yet, so I wouldn't know. It seems pretty strong though

5. I only figured this out after people commented on this post, and I kinda don't want to go change my original post >.< Either way, the full DPS build should work better on Inhibitors and Nexus. Turrets are hard, because they have like 250 Armor when there are no minions. 

Quote from Basinator »

What about Hydra? dat stuffs allows AA champs to push waves extremly quickly.

Look closely

Updated, added cost-efficiency in another spreadsheet

Also added "Other build options" part. 

Just noticed this subforum, and since I couldn't find any other good way to find my own work back, I decided to post all links to them over here. 

• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Fury vs Sorcery
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] EHP and the Defensive Tree
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Defensive Tree Spreadsheet
• [Item and Mastery Theorycrafting] Slow Effectiveness vs Tenacity
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Unyielding and Block
• [Mastery Theorycrafting+] Reinforced Armor + Doran Shield
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] 21 in Offense Part One
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] 21 in Offense Part 2
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Perseverance vs Durability and Veteran Scars
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Building goals
• [Mastery Theorycrafting] Utility: Why Improved Recall is better than Wanderer
• [Theorycrafting] Backdooring, best items
• Why AP Carries should rush Haunting Guise
• [Theorycrafting] Heal vs Barrier

So, it was actually easier to find than I expected, using the search option. (Shouldn't there be some way to just go to your own profile and find your own made threads?)

Also, more of a general announcement, I am right now busy making a guide on masteries on solomid, I will also try to make them on lolking and lolpro later. Also, I think I figured out how the images system works, so I'm also revamping all of my threads some time soon. 
I also made revamped versions of the EHP Defensive Tree Spreadsheet and the Backdooring Spreadsheet.

Here are the links to my Spreadsheets:

• Backdooring Revamped
• EHP Defensive Tree Revamped 
• EHP Defensive Tree Original (The new Revamped one is made in a different way, so that editing is easier, the Original should be easier to understand though)
• Tenacity vs Slow Effectiveness Reduction

EHP Defensive Tree and Backdooring Revamped could use some more entries, so if you would like to know something, just let me know. I will update the threads one by one (And I'll bump them with it), so stay tuned

Quote from xahhfink6 »

I think that a major point to make is that a backdoor champ usually expects to die. Dying to get an inhib turret, and inhib or a nexus turret is very much worth it. That said, Bloodthirster is not an optimal backdoor item because it is reasonable to assume that it will not have stacks on it.

Something I would love for the OP to look into.. what are the best masteries for a backdoor build?

Well, to be honest, there are not many interesting special backdoor masteries, except for the Destruction (5% Turret damage) mastery. If I would opt a full backdooring page, I would go 21/0/9 with points in Destruction, ignoring the points in Frenzy and Lethality in the Offense tree while adding more points to Fury and Sorcery and in the Utility Tree, I would take the Improved Recall, Swiftness, Mastermind and Flash/TP Reduction, that would make a total of 8 Points in Utility, the last point is personal preference, you could even go 22/0/8 instead.  

Quote from B3hr7 »

Here's the problem when you compare Zephyr to Youmuu's Ghostblade. First, Zephyr was designed for bruisers while Youmuu's was mainly for melee adc's like Yi and Tryndamere. Secondly, Youmuu's is built off a gold item (avarice blade) while Zephyr is not, and Zephyr is much more expensive.

In practicality, even though Zephyr on paper looks superior, most characters would still have built Youmuu's due to the fact that it's cheaper, plus if they built a merc treads then they have no need to build Zephyr. And, to be kinda frank, Zephyr sucks right now, the only champ I know of that uses Zephyr extremely well is Irelia.

You are missing the entire point of this post. I only care about damaging turrets here and Zephyr does more DPS to turrets than Youmuu's, thats all there is. I even set it in the reasons why Zephyr outclasses Youmuu's. 

More of a general note here:

I did not take Cost-efficiency into account, since the real question I was asking myself was: What would deal the most damage for backdooring, no matter how much gold you have (For example when you are 50 minutes in game and have money left) or when you simply want to do an xPeke action when your opponents nexus is open. 
This question has been answered and that's it.
People said that attackspeed stacking was best, however it seemed that buying AD first is more effective than ASPD (Therefore the BT -> BT -> Runaans order) so what do you buy when you focus on backdooring? A good mix of AD and ASPD. Sorry for not being clear in my original post on this. 

Quote from Toinouchou»

I think you are being mean on Statik shiv, if you are ranged it is definetly outclassed by Runaan in terms of splitpushing but it has 2 benefits over Runaan.

1. It works with melee champs

2. If you are adc you can pick it up without gimmicking your build

You shouldn't only value the dps on turrets, being able to clear waves quickly is as much if not more important. Especialy since a good back doorer won't down a turret in one push you have to create constant pressure on a lane, back when it is getting dangerous and go push again when it cools off. So you are effectively killing a bunch of minion waves.
For this reason I would add sunfire cape which is a great item for wave clearing and a good pick up on any tanky champ.

Now if you really just want to focus on turret killing you forgot the extremely important lich bane, you can easely proc a 200-500 damage on a turret with a single attack. At some point you can out trade a turret with lich bane !

Lich bane is already in the article. My own purpose for this post is actually to kill those turrets as fast as possible, while not bothering with the minions and champions as much. If I used all those items like Statik Shiv and Sunfire, you could also state that 20% Cooldown Reduction Items like Morello's on Miss Fortune would be very strong for backdooring if you have a single AOE spell. (I don't mean any of this offensive, just as an example)
I will add a "Other strong options" part for Statik, Sunfire and the supportive items.