PBE Changes for 11/19 and The News Roundup: Champion and Skin Sale, Morello, Xypherous, and Phreak on AP Itemization, and More

RoG Article Recap

PBE Changes for 11/19

Nami Changes

  • Celerity [Passive] has been renamed to Surging Tides
  • Hydro Blast [Q] has been renamed to Aqua Prison
    • Now scales with +0.65*AP (Down from +0.75*AP)
  • Surging Tides [W] is now called Ebb and Flow
    • Now heals for 60/90/120/150/180(+0.3*AP) (up from 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.3*AP))
  • Aqueous Empowerment [E] is now called Tidecaller's Blessing
  • Tidal Wave [R]: Now scales with +0.7*AP, down from +0.8*AP
    • Range is now 2550, up from 2200


As always keep in mind this is both the PBE and datamined information. 

  • Grez's Spectral Lantern
    • Now deals 200 bonus magic damage (down from 300)
  • Hexdrinker
    • 90 second cooldown is now shown in the tooltip
  • Madred's Razors
    • Now has a 25% chance to deal bonus damage
    • Has a new unique passive: Rend: Basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.
  • Mercurial Scimitar
    • Now adds +60 AD (Down from 65)
    • now grants 50% bonus speed, down from 100%
  • Spirit Stone
    • Has a new unique passive: Rend: Basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.
  • Sword of the Divine
    • Now gives +45% AS (up from 40%)
    • Now has a 60 second cooldown (up from 25)
    • Now costs 850, up from 650
  • Wriggle's Lantern
    • Now has a 25% chance (up from 20%)

Click below to view the diff tables for full item text.

Grez's Spectral Lantern
Grez's Spectral Lantern

+25 Attack Damage
Life Steal

Passive: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 20% chance to deal 300 bonus magic damage.
Active: A stealth-detecting mist grants vision in the target area for 10 seconds (1 minute cooldown).

Grez's Spectral Lantern

+25 Attack Damage
Life Steal

Passive: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 20% chance to deal 200 bonus magic damage.
Active: A stealth-detecting mist grants vision in the target area for 10 seconds (1 minute cooldown).


+25 Attack Damage
Magic Resist

Passive - Lifeline: If you would take magic damage that would leave you at less than 30% Health,you first gain a shield that absorbs 250 magic damage for 5 seconds.

Unique Passives with the same name don't stack.)


+25 Attack Damage
Magic Resist

Passive - Lifeline: If you would take magic damage that would leave you at less than 30% Health,you first gain a shield that absorbs 250 magic damage for 5 seconds - 90 second cooldown.

Unique Passives with the same name don't stack.)

Madred's Razors
Madred's Razors

+25 Armor

Passive - Rend: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 20% chance to deal 300 bonus magic damage.

Madred's Razors

+25 Armor

Passive - Maim: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 25% chance to deal 300 bonus magic damage.
Passive - Rend: Basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.

Mercurial Scimitar
Mercurial Scimitar

+65 Attack Damage
Magic Resist

Active: Removes all debuffs from your champion and grants 100% Movement Speed for 1 second - 90 second cooldown.

Mercurial Scimitar

+60 Attack Damage
Magic Resist

Active - Quicksilver: Removes all debuffs from your champion and grants 50% bonus Movement Speed for 1 second - 90 second cooldown.

Spirit Stone
Spirit Stone

+14 Health Regen per 5 seconds
Mana Regen per 5 seconds

Passive - Butcher: Damage dealt to monsters increased by 15%.

Unique Passives or Actives with the same name don't stack.)

Spirit Stone

+14 Health Regen per 5 seconds
Mana Regen per 5 seconds

Passive - Butcher: Damage dealt to monsters increased by 15%.
Passive - Rend: Basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.

Unique Passives or Actives with the same name don't stack.)

Sword of the Divine
Sword of the Divine

+40% Attack Speed

Kills or Assist halve this item's cooldown.
Active: Gain 100% Attack Speed and 100% Critical Strike Chance for 4 seconds or 3 critical attacks.While this item is on cooldown,it does not give Attack Speed - 25 second cooldown.

Sword of the Divine

+45% Attack Speed

This item does not grant any Attack Speed while on cooldown.Kills or Assists reduce the current cooldown by 50%.
Active: Gain 100% Attack Speed and 100% Critical Strike Chance for 4 seconds or 3 critical strikes - 60 second cooldown.

Wriggle's Lantern
Wriggle's Lantern

+15 Attack Damage
Life Steal

Passive - Rend: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 20% chance to deal 450 additional magic damage.
Active: Places an invisible Sight Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 3 minutes - 3 minute cooldown.

Wriggle's Lantern

+15 Attack Damage
Life Steal

Passive - Maim: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 25% chance to deal 450 additional magic damage.
Active: Places an invisible Sight Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 3 minutes - 3 minute cooldown.



eCommerce Question of the Week

Any plans for events like double IP weekends or holiday boosts before 2013?
Also, a lot of the newer skins(Battle Bunny Riven specifically) have not gone on sale in close to, or over, 3 months. Any chance we'll be seeing some newer skins on sale anytime soon?
It's been a couple months since you posted this question, and since then, there has been a double IP weekend as well as a 10 day IP boost for all NA players The general approach currently is to give them out to celebrate events like the GDC Online Audience Award, or when we screw something up badly. If we go a few months without either of those happening, we'll likely do something just because. 

Another way we've been trying to bring more value to players is putting items for sale that have never been on sale before. First it was 2 for 1 rune pages, next will be 50% off summoner name changes, and then we'll see where we can go from there.

Regarding skins, yes, we've put more of a focus recently on making sure all skins (except Legendary) make it into sales at some point. Hopefully you've seen the results of that lately.

Reason Behind the New Shop

Riot Reinboom hits the forums giving some reasons for the new shop.

The old item shop has quite a bit of limitations for us. It's rather difficult to add and adjust it for multiple reasons.
New 4 depth items (New gunblade, Blade of the Ruined King, Muramana, Seraph's Embrace, Runic Aegis) don't work.
Anything that has an odd build tree (Hydra) doesn't work.
Enchantments are confusing to deal with.

It'll also be easier and more consistent on our end to only update a single item shop for things such as new categories or recommended items. How the game deals with loading things such as recommended items is much more dependable allowing for the possibility of adding features such as custom recommended items much more feasible a goal.

The new item shop is a significant departure from the old, but I implore you to give it more of a chance. We can do quite a bit more with it and if it's problematic we can even change it and adjust it much more quickly than the current item shop.

Champion & Skin Sale: Her Fearful Cutlery

It is a melancholy truth that all bad things must come to an end. While I am pleased to report that last year’s food critic challenge left no survivors, the Valoran Department of Health is sending a Demacian regiment to forcefully shut me down. But you may step one last time into the flames as I unveil my most malicious culinary masterpiece. My guests should be arriving any moment now to partake in my 42-course feast for the ages…

  • As the evening’s entertainment, Royal Shaco has promised a sidesplitting tribute to my dastardly delights. I only hope it doesn’t involve a musical skit with anthropomorphic food exulting their delicious sacrifice like he has done before. Nothing puts guests off their appetites quite like a turkey performing an interpretative dance titled “Kill Me.” 260 RP
  • It seems only fitting that, considering his massive blades, Rune Wars Renekton should honor us by carving the roast beast. He slices and dices like no other champion I know! Leave the bloodiest cuts for me, please. 487 RP
  • Primal Udyr, don’t turtle into your shell. Here, have everything in a bucket; that way you can eat with your bear paws. I’m only joking, no need to switch to Tiger Stance. I’ll even put the garlic pepper quail eggs on top! 487 RP

  • Calm down, Diana. The quinoa pilaf being tossed with sun-dried tomatoes does not give you leave to proselytize the virtues of nocturnally-harvested produce. Take your plate and eat outside. I’m sure the moon will keep you better company than us. 487 RP
  • Oh dear…in Blitzcrank’s haste to get at the casserole de haricots verts, he rocket-grabbed the entire platter of turkey tartare—not to mention the rest of my tablescape! What a mess! For my next dish, I may have to try something with a more metallic aftertaste. 487 RP
  • Who’s that blur zipping around tidying everything? Oh, Kennen, what do you think you are doing? Did you think you can cut your own slice of my cranberry-pecan-pumpkin tart? Don’t test me, just take care with that maelstrom of yours and I’m sure we’ll all leave with our extremities intact. 487 RP

Well, no need to clear these dirty dishes, just throw them across the floor! I’ll be serving courses fromNovember 20 to November 23. But once the food is gone, it’s gone, and they can’t stop me from hawking painful pastries on the battlefield of Summoner’s Rift.

Competitive Patch for IEM Singapore & Dreamhack Winter

League of Legend patch 1.70 (Elise) will be used at IEM Singapore (November 22nd ~ 24th; Singapore local time) & Dreamahck Winter (November 22nd & 23rd). The tournaments will be played on the Taiwan & European tournament realms respectively. There are no champion restrictions.

Rioters will also be onsite at Dreamhack to give our Rammus skins to as many attendees of the world's largest LAN as we can!

New Featured Streamer: Elementz

Our next featured streamer is Curse Gaming’s bot laner and longtime support guru Elementz. A household name in competitive League of Legends since Beta, Elementz is a decorated veteran of numerous Challenger Circuit events and one of the founders of prominent fansite Reign of Gaming. He’s also well known for his helpful stream commentary and has even been featured as a guest caster at many competitive events. 

Although he’s a pro support, Elementz is accomplished in all lanes and roles. He maintains a popular tier list ranking champions based on his opinion of their viability, and calls Wukong his favorite champion. He’s also extremely responsive to questions, and demonstrating roles and champions based on viewer suggestions.

If you’re looking for some competitive insight from a pro, don’t miss this chance to catch Elementz streaming live all week long from 2:00 PM to 10:00 PM Pacific Time.


Morello, Xypherous, and Phreak on AP Itemization and More

Hashinshin's last blog post brought a big stir over on the official forums. Read below for the full rundown of the comments and replies. The post have been divided into three parts, Morello's replies, Xypherous' Replies, and Phreak's replies. There is a LOT of text here and would suggest only reading if you are intrested in the AP vs non-AP itemization. You can also check it out in our Red Tracker for easy reading.


There's a bunch of misconceptions here that I'd like to clear up and a couple of major thoughts along the way that I don't think you guys see.

1. Why don't we release LDVP on SR? It is the perfect AD Caster item.

Because it would effectively shut out the AD Caster class from existing because AD/SV/CDR is the perfect AD Bruiser item. There's no way that AD Burst Assassins (Talon/Pantheon) could ever pick this up and feel good about it - mostly because it doesn't actually work to help them in a fight given their spike damage and the fact that their abilities are AoE.

The people whom SV *does* help sustain in lane are typically the direct counters to AD Assassins - I.E. fighters. Twisted Treeline showed that while LVDP was decent - Lee Sin/Shyvana/Olaf were some of the best users of the item.

2. SV doesn't help you sustain in lane either.

Talon has exactly one spell that benefits from spell vamp and it's AoE. Pantheon at the very least has Spear Shot - but is horrendously gated on Mana from using it as a primary form of Sustain. Zed *may* have the best shot at sustaining in a lane, given that he's an energy character but again, AoE damage.

3. 'I'm buying wasted stats because they enhance my autoattacks'

You cannot balance a character around players not wanting to autoattack. You can't balance for the one player who wants to spam all his buttons and leaves and the player that sticks around to commit two or three more autoattacks before dying.

Any AD item, even a raw AD item, benefits #2 disproportionately greater than #1, simply due to the fact that autoattacks have a pretty decent ratio and will always be the tool with the highest sustained damage on your kit. 

While it's true that we could make an item that essentially just makes your autoattacks useless - but there's no point in making an item that would justify this trade-off. We have those characters. They're called Mages. There's no point in making an item that essentially trivializes the one aspect of an AD Caster that actually allows them to stand apart from Mages - the fact that in any given situation, they have a incredible sustained damage tool.

True, it's probably not one anyone in this thread *wants* - but that's the price you pay when you have Attack Damage as one of your primary statistics. That's something that is going to be intrinsic on your character - you have a decent autoattack.

4. The vast part of S3 changes for AD Casters were systems related.

Linking from above: the two unique advantages that AD Casters have is that they have high amounts of base physical damage (typically AoE) and that raw health cannot counter them due to the fact that they can just simply autoattack you down if you are a raw health class. This puts them in a unique spot where the best effective counter to them is resistances (armor, specifically.)

However, the biggest changes in S3 revolve around this fact. AD Casters have the unique advantage of having the Flat Pen --> % Pen itemization path make sense on them. That they sacrifice almost nothing for going pure Flat Penetration and that % Penetration on them makes sense without any other items because they have such high base physical damage.

The second change in S3 was the repricing of attack damage to be cheaper than before. Whatever AD Carries gained from this was offset by the fact that attack speed is generally a more expensive statistic than before.

5. There really isn't a point in making utility items when you don't bring the class for utility.

At the moment, AD Casters always fight for the same role - because they *are* always the same role, assassin / tanky assassins. There's no sustain-tank AD Caster (Swain). There's no Control AD Caster (Zyra). There's no Siege AD Caster (Heimerdinger). There aren't supportive AD (Lulu). By contrast, there *are* tanky AP Casters (Rumble) or Assassin AP (Fizz). Itemization doesn't make any of these guys their role. Their kits do.

What this boils down to is that any utility based item tailored towards AD Caster / Assassin will generally ignored unless they're *also* overpowered for AD reasons because all current AD Casters / Assassins are brought for damage. If they don't itemize for damage - they're pretty pointless to bring in the first place.

When you can conceivably think of bringing an a character with AD ratios for their utility - they're generally better suited building tank as they tend to be melee. 

When you boil down to the trifecta of a tanky/utility/damaging character - (for example, if Jarvan was fully itemized for and had tanky/utility/damage items) - That generally just means that the character is overpowered. Mages tend to be tanky or highly threatning. They tend to be utility focused or tank-centric. Any character that accomplishes all three is generally a warning flag because their existence will shut out a lot of of characters from seeing play.

6. Item premium reductions mean that you don't need an item with the perfect ball of statistics for you.

This is also what's known as the 'hybrid AD/AP problem.' I'm going to explain why it's generally a trap on S2 to build anything but items with 'efficient statistics' - It's because the higher up the item tree you go - the more stat/cost efficient the item becomes. That Tier 3 item gave you 70% more gold worth of statistics than that base item, for example - and roughly 50% more efficiency than most mid-tier items. 

Having a bunch of mid-tier items sit around in your inventory was awful - because it was strictly less gold efficient by miles if you didn't finish them - This is also the same problem that leads to the 'This mid-game item needs an end-game item' syndrome - because, even if you don't have enough gold to upgrade it - it still isn't worth the slot because it's a still inefficient use of gold comparatively to all the options you have now.

However, this is *also* what leads to the 'inefficient' itemization problem. Unless you had a perfect ball of statistics tailored to your class - there was no way you could 'piecemeal' a build together for a particular niche - because the stat efficiency of that piecemeal was almost guaranteed to be 20% less efficient that any other item path you could go down.

With S3, we're aiming at a high end gold premium of roughly 40% at the high-end for Tier 3 and around 25% for Tier 2 taking into account context and general considerations aside. Picking items piece by piece and having multiple mid-tier items as your mid-game build is no longer a huge trap. 

Brutalizer --> Tiamat --> Last Whisper, for example is a 6k build for AD Casters that is now very strong on them simply due to the fact that you don't have to go all the way down to Tier 3 items to be stat efficient. 

In general, items that are 'perfect balls of stat' necessitate us to either nerf characters who use it fully into the ground or bind that item to that character class forever - such that there's no point in building any other build - while this might be good practice on area-damage mages - this is actually an awful effect on things like AD Bruisers who can build tank and be used for their utility. 

There's a reason Tank Morgana or Tank Kennen isn't a thing even though they have the utility and melee requirements to match - it's because their Caster builds are so much better that they've shut them out from existing - similarly with AD Bruisers here.


Is he or is he not an AD Caster? 

He kind of sits alongside the same lines as Jarvan does - Some kind of middle ground between a tank class and a damage class.

I suppose it depends on what you classify Jarvan as, in your internal lexicon.

I would consider him a mid-range carry, similiar to the old Sivir - with all of the resulting problems thereof.

I disagree here. I think that people are asking for an AD item that does help spells but not auto-attacks. Why couldn't we get the "AD Deathcap" that people have been wanting? Something like: +40 AD / Increases the physical damage dealt by your spells by 15% 
Reading that, my gut reaction is making an item the would feel efficient on strictly two characters in the game is kind of silly (Riven / Talon) - mostly because every AD Caster would be somewhat inefficient with that item, having on-hit procs, AA reliances or magic damage.

Even Riven would feel kind of silly with that item as she autoattacks a ton - so.. Just Talon?

So basically, AD casters will never get the unique itemization that you and Morello promised would make them viable items- because bruisers could use the same items, autoattacks are too good, and you want to make sure that AD champions have no variety? 
I'm not going to convince you of anything when your mind is already made up on anger - but I can assure almost every systems change had the goal of helping bring AD Casters in a better spot.

I did every systems change to AD casters I set out to do. AD is cheaper. Stacked pen is stronger - and there are ways to itemize raw AD and gain overall survivability. 

Granted, it's not your spells doing it - but the thing with AD casters has always been that, at the end of the day, you have an autoattack.

Why you gotta hate on Zed bro?

Renekton too. 

My bad. I forget we just released Zed.

Renekton deals 1500 magic damage over 15 seconds in an AoE. It's like 'this item helps you out! Except for your W, which is three autoattacks, and your ultimate, which is your ultimate.' >_<

Xin and noc are AD casters, too. Both Qs and Rs have strong AD scalling, making them a midlle ground btw an AD caster/assassin and a full bruiser like irelia/Jarman/Udyr 
Xin Zhao and Nocturne have terrific autoattack enhancers - and so never feel bad about autoattacking. The majority of a X to the Z or Nocturne damage will be from basic attacks.

I don't think we're asking for more powerful items across the board for all classes, what we want is for all the classes to have just as many nuanced options to accomplish similar tasks. 
I definitely agree with this - However, the term 'class' is where we differ from this.

AD Assassins, are Assassins at the end of the day. Not AD Casters.
Hybrid characters, are whatever role they are at the end of the day. Not 'Hybrid' characters.

AD Caster isn't a class, it's a subset of characters defined by their scaling - not their role. It's not what they do - it's just what numbers they scale off of and the unique fallout of that. Most AD Casters are a subset of the smaller assassin class or a subset of the larger fighter class as a whole.

Additionally, 'AP Mage' generally has the most broad classes within that archetype - given that they are the most flexible role because they generally have the most widely varied kit bases that go from assassin to control to supportive.

Autoattacks are just a crippling blow to the characters that die when they try to autoattack in a fight. The champions that are designed to not autoattack are the ones that require new items that are purely based on their spells. 

Making AD cheaper only creates AD carries scaling into late game earlier, meaning these assassins could be obsolete sooner. AD carries are proving to destroy the games itemization and I'm sick of it. 

Except that whatever gains AD carries made from AD being cheaper was taken away by attack speed being more expensive - because attack speed was underpriced as a statistic overall - leading to everyone else's AD options being more expensive.

I think this is the problem right here. When it comes to AD itemization PLUS tanky statistics, those tanky statistics take away from the raw power that AD Casters (Not Bruisers) need to have to be able to deal crazy amounts of damage. 
When I set out on BoRK and Ravenous Hydra - I was intending BT + BoRK / Hydra to be a very powerful AD / Drain option that scaled the better your raw AD was - not tankiness.

I think this is the problem right here. When it comes to AD itemization PLUS tanky statistics, those tanky statistics take away from the raw power that AD Casters (Not Bruisers) need to have to be able to deal crazy amounts of damage.
Autoattacks are just a crippling blow to the characters that die when they try to autoattack in a fight. The champions that are designed to not autoattack are the ones that require new items that are purely based on their spells. 
Making AD cheaper only creates AD carries scaling into late game earlier, meaning these assassins could be obsolete sooner. AD carries are proving to destroy the games itemization and I'm sick of it.
Thing is only a little itemization has been created for these classes and you guys poured all the resources into Tank/Bruiser/AP/Support Items for Season 3. (Of what we know.)
There isn't one item that exists that gives heft AD/Armor or AD/MR or AD/Health. You can argue Maw of Malmortius, but in the end, you need to SURVIVE to abuse it's full effect, ala Bruiser.
My last hope is the Penetration changes, hopefully I can one-combo someone when they buy a Chain Vest against Talon, unlike now.

We made Attack Speed more expensive, and specifically nerfed the premiums on high-end items, such as IE and Phantom Dancer. We lowered the value of % penetration such as Last Whisper, because it now stacks with Brutalizer.

Every single systems change made directly benefit AD casters while keeping other AD roles in check. Only AD casters buy Brutalizer and Last Whisper. Only AD Casters buy Attack Damage but not Attack Speed.

You're only reading part of what we're saying and making up your mind.

If we make AD/Armor an easy early-game build path, then you get shut down even harder by Riven. Want to know an item that makes Riven and Darius dunk your favorite class even harder? Wriggle's being great on laners again.

AD casters got everything in the next patch. They got Black Cleaver, Tiamat/Hydra, and a Bloodthirster that has even more +damage on it. They got Brutalizer and Last Whisper working together. They got the value of armor nerfed.

I'd think a good way to address that would be to include CDR on the usables for these items based on either skill based physical damage or even just purchased cooldown reduction. It's a thought. 
I'd disagree completely.
It's a subset of characters defined by their lack of steroid (Riven is an exception because she's charge based, so AS doesn't help) and therefore LACK of scaling. 

Think about CDR for a second - CDR is *great* on Riven, Renekton and the general tanky AD Casters with high mobility and escapes.

CDR is awful on Talon / Pantheon - as it doesn't actually help them get their jobs done *nor* does it help them escape.

Where do you see this split? Fighters / Assassins. Fighters love CDR options. Assassins hate CDR unless they have an escape spell that they desperately need a lower CD on.

This isn't entirely true Xyph---one of ADC's main items, which is AD, is now a whopping 300 gold more 350 gold more now---when you factor in the IE, PD, LW, etc changes, yeah, it kinda evens out, but BT is a huge standout here--it's overall cost increase is greater than all the other cost changes on carries' items added together.

I realize it now has long-sword addded to it, but it doesn't really do anything for it--it's still the same risky, have to stack item it's always been only now it provides less lifesteal and is incredibly expensive. 

Kind of - That's more of a fall-out of the Tier 3 premium stuff. Almost every item has had similar drops in power of gold increases when they get to the tier 3 level.

I'd still like to hear your thoughts on a very very expensive pure AD item that only gives pure AD (150-250 AD, 4000+ gold cost). 
Divine Rapier? Gut reaction is that it wouldn't really solve anything - and that the cases when characters could rush the item for hyper-efficient AD would mean that we'd have to nerf characters so hard that they *had* to rush the item or that we'd have to nerf the item until it more or less looked like BT.

I could be totally wrong though.

Just make the "Increases your AD by 20%" a unique passive that only applied to abilities, and it's perfect. Because this is EXACTLY what talon / pantheon want. 
...Making an item for the sole purpose of two characters seems rather silly - and that specific passive seems rather silly since Talon's Q is an autoattack and his passive is an autoattack enhancer.

The only abilities that would amplify is his W and his R - both of which consititute roughly half of his burst damage output.

You seem to talk about those usual Assassins a lot, but I've been wanting to get better with Zed and Zed benefits a lot from CDR, giving him the small window to add a lot more burst to his ult. 
Zed kind of benefits from CDR a lot - Energy does tend to gate him a little.

But note that I did specifically say that Assassins tend to like CDR once they have an escape spell that allows them to profit from it. Zed in particular does have this aspect with his 'W'.

(Fizz shares this quality with Zed, in that CDR is great on him because of the fact that he has an escape - which means he doesn't need to focus on the one instantaneous burst instance.)

Being good on two people doesn't mean it was made for two people. It just kind of turned out that way.

Hence the retuning to try to make it a more generalist item.

Once they get armor, even if you have NO penetration gear, you are on equal footing with season 2 performance. It is only after you add in a Brutalizer that you are doing worse, and even then, your loss in performance is smaller than the 5 point change Brutalizer received.
But, most importantly, the moment you get gear with % penetration, you are WAY ahead of where you were in season 2. 

I'm fairly certain that there are some numbers that are a bit off in PBE with Ar Pen values specifically, as the mastery change to 8% came fairly late. We might need to retune the rune ones.

Hey, to make AD Assassins/casters feel good @Xypherous
What about a sheen type item that gives a large amount of burst lifesteal/heal?
Something like "After you use an ability, your next autoattack heals you for your bonus AD. This ability has a 2 second cooldown".
....oh yeah, Riven

*shrugs* While it might be good on Riven - she already stacks Bloodthirsters for full effect - which is essentially what this item is. Autoattacks that heal you that require you to have a huge amount of Bonus AD.

You think its silly to design an item that works for Pantheon / Talon. Why not just tweak Pantheon so that Lifesteal / Crits actually work on his abilities? That way when I'm paying a PREMIUM in S3 for the only real damage item - BT - that makes sense, I actually get a benefit? 
I'm pretty sure that BC / LW or even Tiamat/BoRK outclass BT in S3 by quite a bit in terms of benefits to Pantheon's abilities at the moment in S3 - mostly due to the fact that by itemizing a large amount of AD, you essentially ignore what makes AD Casters work - the huge amount of base damage on their abilities.

Even your math agress that there is no buff to assassins before they get the freaking best penetration item they could possibly get. And we all know earlygame is pretty important for snowballing, especially since assassins by definition need to be able to take out a target in one go. If they can't do that better than in season2 by the time they have their ulti, i see a problem. 
The general theme of physical assassins has always typically been 'too much early game dominance and too little late game relevance' - hence why you need to do things like snowball to maintain relevance all game - simply because you need to stay ahead of armor curves to be relevant.

As a whole - this is the curve that I'm fundamentally trying to address - that an assassin who falls behind the armor curve and still perform decently well through penetration and that his damage is more relevant across a wider portion of the game.

I don't really see how an item that granted bonus damage on physical spell damage would only benefit two characters. Pantheon would obviously be the prime candidate for buying it, with Talon following very close behind. But think of how that passive could help other champions:

Graves and Miss Fortune can choose to spec more into empowering their AOE rather than just being an auto-attack bot. Fiora and Lee Sin could also do something very similar. I'm sure there are a lot of other champions this item could benefit under certain circumstances. 

The problem with this is that the four characters you've mentioned (Graves / MF / Fiora / Lee Sin) are either the target of assassins or the replacement for assassins.

Something that makes the direct target or their direct replacement stronger - actually weakens the character overall as there is either less reason to pick them compared to Lee Sin / Fiora - or it makes it significantly harder for them to do their job correctly and thus no reason to pick them because of the risk.

Pantheon's Spearshot is meh base damage with kinda good scaling, though I will grant HSS is pretty damn good base. KZ is unique in that he scales INSANELY WELL with AD on that Q, his W and E having both kinda meh damage. So far we've got 1 spell per kit with "high base damage" which can be matched by many actual AP casters.
Talon is actually one of the examples where he NEEDS damage to scale really well. His bases are okay, but nothing to write home about. Zed is a far better base damage dealer since he can continue to output damage the entire time with E and once they hit 50% gets a nice spike in damage on a single auto. 

Well, here's the base damage breakdown at max rank for Talon:

Q: 150 + 90 or 240
W: 260
R: 520

Here's how they look on Riven

Q: 390
W: 170
R: 480 (at 25% or lower health)

If you consider Riven's base damage as high, I'd also consider Talon's high since they have the same base damage overall on their kits.

I'm not counting Talon's 15% damage amp, because honestly, you probably don't have that most of the game.

How about an item that makes all your TOTAL AD into BONUS AD?
Let say you have 50 base and 50 bonus AD, with this item you will have 0 base and 100 bonus AD.
This makes AD Casters, Assassines scale with his base AD.
Not useful on carries since the AA damage remains the same. 

Isn't this an argument just to have AD Casters be Total AD Scaling in the first place?

To be fair in that math, you're leaving out Riven's passive boost (which is frankly significantly stronger in combo than Talon's unless he has a ton of damage). Also, Talon Q is a lot of DoT damage. I do think leaving out Riven's natural AA weave with Q is incredibly misleading though... 
I was just counting base damages here and you're right that Riven's passive weave also adds another 15 per spell used. 

The overall argument was that, in terms of free base physical damage the two receive without counting AD scaling whatsoever, they come in at similar numbers - hence why penetration is nice on them, because they have a full 1000 damage headstart on people who need to autoattack.

Talon's Q is over 6 seconds, and all his abilities have lower AD ratios, AND he doesn't ahve a passive. Sorta cheating, no? 
Again, Celestya was only making the claim on base damages - and thus that's all those numbers was looking at - how base damage encourages you to itemize penetration rather than focus on scaling ratios.

Riven definitely has higher ratios overall and better damage output over a longer period of time.

And by "longer period of time" you mean "any period of time," right? Talon uses his combo and then becomes almost completely useless to his team.
Honestly though this is a problem with Talon. He needs a scaling cooldown on W, kill/assist reset on Cutthroat, and maybe like a 15 second CD reduction on his ultimate upon kill or assist. 

Kind of? You could make this argument about all mages and characters whose damage mostly comes from a burst combo ability in general.

If you need lots of damage in less than a 3 to 4 second window, Talon will beat Riven. If you need damage in 8+ second window, Riven will beat Talon. In the middle there, there's some weird ground where it depends on how many AA's Talon can get in with his passive + E up.

her passive does have a base, and you go in to a game with 15 AD, and with her nearly double his AD ratios on base abilities that means even 15 runes/masteries + 10 from dorans adds a LOT of damage. She also has 3 more base AD damage at level 1.

I'm actually not going to let this one go. It's why Riven is so deadly even against bruisers where as Talon can't lane top. 

I'm not disputing with you that Riven has more damage top-lane than Talon when built AD (or hell, if she has zero AD). That's one of the reasons she builds AD. That's obvious to everyone.

The question is just whether or not penetration makes sense on these characters - and they do. It turns out, they make a lot of sense because they do have generally high bases.

Lets JUST count AD ratios. Riven gets 2.1 from Q, 1.0 from W, 1.0 from her passive, all over +20% AD and then up to 1.8 from her ultimate. Talon can get (in these 4 seconds) 1.1 from his Q, 1.2 from his W, 1.8 from his ultimate, and possibly another 0.3 from his Q. If we let this drag out Talon's Q will continue to tick but Riven will continue to apply her passive completely dominating him. And I'm grooossly being biased here towards talon assuming that in 4 seconds Riven can only get 2 autos off. 
So.. what? Do you want me to admit that Riven has higher damage than Talon? I've done that 3 times in this thread already and have done so pretty much continuously for months now.

You can bash on Talon's damage all you like or bring up how Riven's damage is high all you;d like - it's not particularly relevant to the discussion nor is it anything I particularly disagree with. I mean, I've said this on half a dozen threads already that I'd to see Riven nerfed or readjusted so that she doesn't snowball so hard and that her ult has a real CD.

I'll let you be Dante to my Vegil if the end result is nerfing Irelia
I'm actually going to wait and see how the removal of the damage block masteries in defense and the higher cost of attack speed hits Irelia as I think it'll beat her up in lane a bit.

Of course, Dblade may have reset that. Ah well.

S3 will require tons of balance - but a lot of the systems work was to try to get a better starting point for balance. We've fallen into a local minimum of balance / game optimization because of a lot of things holding us back - the dominance of early armor penetration - the plethora of cheap AS options - the continuous ward/gold sinks of supports. 

Hopefully S3 will let us get more characters to a better spot - but.. who knows. We'll need feedback, that's for sure.

ACTIVE: Pantheon hurls his spear at an opponent dealing physical damage. If Heartseeker Strike has been leveled up once, Spear Shot will crit to deal 150% damage against opponents whose current health is below 15% of their max health. Spear Shot can lifesteal for 50% of your current lifesteal.
So you have 10% lifesteal, Spearshot gives you 5%. *shrugs*

Honestly, at this point, you should just make Spearshot apply on-hit effects since it already psuedo-crits. Which might be cool in the end, I'm not sure - but it would open Spearshot up for further silliness.

At the cost of all the GP / Tiamat / Range questions again for Pantheon.



Well, this is loaded with a lot of assumptions and intent assignment, and I don't care for that because it's wrong, and a bad way to start a discussion. :P But, let's talk about why this feeling might exist with players and if there is indeed an item problem that needs to be fixed.

The value that may exist here isn't "Roit loves AP bias bias bias" (that's, frankly, a silly conspiracy), but instead raises some more compelling questions;

* Is AP itemization too good?
* Does AP itemization have more cool stuff that non-AP would like to see?
* Is this a problem at all - does a problem exist for AP in comparison to other roles?
* Why does it seem biased?

Let's go forward with these discussions, if you'd like, since we might be able to learn something here.

I think the issue people are having is simply the volume available to AP's versus other classes. AP itemization isn't overpowered. Overpopulated though is probably a better term. Then you look at AD Casters. Well, they have BT, but they barely get to use the Lifesteal from it, if at all. They have Youmuu's, but they can't use crit chance either, and the attackspeed from the active is similarly wasted. Last Whisper, of course. Maybe the new Black Cleaver situationally, though it's better on Jarvan or Wukong than on Talon or Kha'Zix anyway. Pantheon will probably like the new Manamune (I know Urgot will love it, but when was the last time you saw him?).
Meanwhile there are at least 6 different common AP builds, and who knows how many variations upon them to suit the enemy team and your own farming ability.

Wait, are we talking current items, or the stuff in Season 3?

Reading hash, it sounded like both. He makes several references to how "AD Casters were promised items but didn't get them", which would imply S3.
I see - I think Black Cleaver, plus things like frozen fist, can work wonders here. Mercurial can also play in well there.

AD Casters are a specific type of character because their auto-attacks do damage also - AP do not get any non-spell damage, so need to bank everything on this. Armor penetration stacking changes work heavily in favor of AD casters who typically get these items - and they'll now scale better into late game by allowing them to work favorably with Last Whisper.

I don't think the goal was "make entire new lines of AD caster itemization," it was to first test the waters with this. BC is the new big-ticket item here, with several others becoming much more attractive. Maybe it's not enough, but at least there's a foundation to build on here.

This sounds like a fantastic excuse to ignore Hashinshin's thoughts. "I don't like the way he said these things, so I will ignore them."
Aren't we talking about the issue here? I think that's proof of the opposite.

But I will ignore discussing people telling me what I intend :P It's a useless conversation and not worth having - it's like if I tell you that your motivation is to ruin the game for players...there's no way I can possibly know that.

This discussion walks the line of removing options from ap instead of adding options for the ad.

Its great that the ap have an item to build for all situations, the problem is ad dont have that same option, it isnt even something worthy of a discussion.

Just look at all the items, and sort them by ap, ad tank and support, and youd get a clear picture of the lack of options adc and casters have, its very simple.

It's a bit more nuanced than the AP itemization, I'll give you that. Things like Muramana aren't obvious, but have a lot of potential. Mecurial Scimitar is really interesting overall.

I don't agree that there's some marginalization for ADC at all because they'e been amazing for pretty much forever. AD casters might be in a weird spot, but I explain that above.

Saying its wrong doesn't make it wrong.
Much like if you asked the developers behind street fighter 3 if perhaps Chun Li got too many options if they said "nope conspiracy" you'd smell some bull****. 
Same thing for the SC2 balance team with Terran at launch. And the magic developers with blue/white. And the WoW developers with Mages. And the GW2 team with Mesmers. And the D3 developers and Demon Hunters. SHALL I GO ON? Okay that's fine I shall. Warhammer 40k designers and Grey Knights/Space Marines. Dawn of War developers and Eldar. Natural selection 2 developers and Marines. Poxnora developers and Forglar Swamp. Bloodline champions developers and healers. 
Every game has this. Your game has this. Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't suddenly fullstop it. 2 years after AD caster itemization was promised, where is it? Where? Anywhere? Can I see it? What about all those new bruiser items? Anywhere? No? Just Maw? Just that ****ty item? AP itemization? Oh you mean the new incredibly meta relevant Athene's? That then got buffed to OP status 2 weeks after launch? What did I hear about Maw? Too early to buff it? 
HYPOCRISY ALERT CAPTAIN. Full denial ahead! We give itemization to every class, so long as that class is AP. Are you any better than the magic developers who have taken over 10 years to make red more than lightning bolt/scorch/FotM burn spell+1 good champion who then turn around and give blue every option feasibly available to man? 
-Is AP itemization too good? Yes. That's why you're nerfing it. That's why you'll have to nerf it again. That's why you've been nerfing it systemically every other patch for the last year (only to add new amazing OP items and have to nerf them too.)
-Does AP itemization have things other classes want? Yes. I want to jump in to a fight with Talon then go immune for 2.5 seconds when that Incinerate is flying at me.
-Does a problem exist with AP versus other roles? Yes. That's why you keep nerfing it. Just because AP itemization is all fine compared to each other doesn't make them fine against other items. People were still going Athene's before abyssal was nerfed, now both are nerfed. See the problem? 
-Why does it seem biased? Numbers. Look at them. Stats. The amount of items with meta relevant purposes for AP released versus other classes. Talon gets BT, which is not even itemized towards him. Tanky AP versus Tanky AD items, is there even a comparison? Tanky AP has real good actually GOOD items, tanky AD has... Maw, which is ****.
Oh sorry I forgot to mention new black cleaver which is fantastic for sustained damage physical damage assassins...? Identity crisis much?

I'm going to continue talking about the issues that are possible (such as actual problems), and not discuss intent any further. You're wrong in several of those cases that bias is the problem, and frankly, it's dumb to talk about because my answer is "well we don't think that", which I can't prove and you can't disprove. It has no value and no resolution because you've just decided that's how the world works, with zero exposure to validate those claims. This is, fact, a good lesson in how to undermine a possible issue with useless discussion surrounding it - but since there is the possibility of a real gameplay issue underneath, I want to explore it.

So, now back to actual itemization discussions.

A few things.
Hashinshin is a professional whiner, so his posts should be taken with a grain of salt. However...
1) In general, AP itemization is more "fun" than AD itemization. Rylai's Crystal Scepter can give you AoE stuns while Frozen Mallet is just your autoattacks. Even if they're balanced, Rylai's is funner. Ghostblade gives you an attack speed and movement speed buff, but Zhonya's makes you untergetable for 2.5 seconds 
2) AP items also tend to have fewer wasted stats, and better amounts of the stats you want. Like, Rylai's gives health, good AP, and the slow. Frozen Mallet gives health (good), the slow (good), and.... almost no AD. Sadface. Ghostblade gives armor pen, CDR, and a good Movement Speed buff (all awesome), but also attack speed and crit chance (useless on the champs that build it).
3) Rod of Ages gives you awesome passive lane sustain, which can really make laning against some hard champs manageable. Conversely, AD champs get every single one of their passive lane sustain items nerfed into uselessness. RoA is also just a good item so building it isn't a huge sacrifice.
4) DFG is a "big moment," as you're fond of saying, that you can buy. AD champs have nothing like that.
5) Most AD items that are cool have poor slot efficiency. Wriggles Lantern, Wit's End, Ghostblade, these are all fun but you should probably sell them eventually for something else, except you can't because there aren't good options that still have the stats you need.
6) That said, AP itemization isn't OP. It's awesome. The numbers may be a little off here and there and more items would still be nice, but there are cool options and different builds for every champion. AD itemization could use some work, though. Personally, I think a lot of the S3 previews sounds like a good start for bruisers. Blade of the Ruined King is like Riven's dream item. More CDR options make me happy. Oh, and the new Black Cleaver is an AWESOME item. 

Interesting - this has some legs. Part of this is because multiple type of character need to have AD itemization (AD caster, Brusier, and AD Carry) so I think the total items get divided. Wriggle's has good stat efficiency for fighters in the jungle, but is hyper-specialized. Additionally, the old "free gold" for high tier items was too high, making these look less attractive. We have fixed that to an extent.

I think Mercurial Scimitar has a really fun active effect in relation to the classes who should use it. But you're right, enhancing auto-attacks is a bit more vanilla. Maybe that's happened because we think utility should go more on AP, Tanks and Support than it should bruisers, AD Casters and carries. That would explain the differential, and for that fact I think is OK.

Items should slightly vary but enhance existing play-patterns, so obviously someone who thinks AP casters are fun should play those :P But AD players need to make sure they have fun options that are different and tailored to the actions they enjoy. I think a good example of success here is where we've done this on the new support items.

Should it not be an option to spec for utility (in terms of items) rather then hard regulate it to certain classes?
Also where does this leave AD Tanks (like renekton) in terms of how they work with items with that design philosophy?

Actually, you don't want utility across all characters to be equal - speccing stats into certain utility effects makes it more efficient for classes that the effect is, essentially, designed to work for. 

That's what we use currently, though there are both pros and cons to that.

Actually most people do. Currently there are very few APs that have no hard CC, where as alot of ADs don't. Like Zed.
This is why you will see alot of champs underplayed, because why take Zed when you can take Pantheon who has a stun and even higher damage, and who isn't incredibly situational in how they approach fights to do said damage.
EDIT: In terms of utility across the board, you already partially did that with flash. 99% of people take flash meaning they now all have an escape or a gap close.
Also, the perfect example of a nearly completely balanced AD caster is Riven. She has minor utility in that she has a shield that scales off AD. Why not implement more ideas like this.

Sorry, "you" was the wrong pronoun - I meant us as developers are trying to avoid that currently. 

That has advantages - you don't have to worry about balancing for every edge case and can make more effects that are cool because they're gated (see Ravenous Hydra's "melee only" clause) but the disadvantage as you cannot combine as many elements together effectively - and trying to break the game and find crazy things is fun. Right now, we feel the former outweighs the latter, but we may not have the tuning exactly right on where to do it, admittedly.

Morello never responds to well thought out and informative posts regarding serious issues or community opinion. Trust me i know first hand.

If it's not something he can use a witty one liner or dismissive paragraph to try to divert attention from the issue he will ignore the thread.

Aren't we talking about this actual issue right now (ie AP itemization in comparison to others)?

It's a tough balance, because if I engage with the political campaign-style conversations that have a lot of useless stuff in them, then it does divert the conversation - and we all come out on the ****ty end. If I call out that it's useless, then I'm evasive, even if I'm asking about the issue (like my original post!). Are the expectations that I should admit to every accusation that's thrown at me, even if not true? That this should be a mud-slinging? I want feedback and critiques, I'm just trying to let you guys know how to be effective at giving them instead of ineffective.

Instead of arguing about that stuff, I'd much prefer to talk about the issues that -are- present in gameplay...things we can actually fix and work on. Maybe we can agree on some things and disagree on others - that's good! This whole post is about that - but what I don't want to do is turn this into a crusade about what our intent and thoughts are - you simply can make that up to fit any story you'd like. I could do the same thing, talking about how Hash's posting style represents some long-neglected need for attention and that he can only get bad attention by getting mad and inflammatory. But me saying that is a stupid thing to say because I don't have exposure to him, his life, or who he is as a person.

And even this post was time I could have spent talking about itemization.  Baited.

I feel like a lot of the problem comes from the fact that so few items have logical build paths for their roles. Pure AD assassins, for example have to waste money on lifesteal for BT, ruining their incremental damage and their overall scaling. Pure tanks like rammus also have this issue, being forced to buy tons of mana and team auras and sunfires passive instead of being able to buy tank stats at every step. ADC is a lot more simple, where they buy damage nearly 100% of the time, and AP has been getting simpler itemization as time goes on, with the removal of questionable optimizations like mana regen on DFG, and the inclusion of even more options like the sustain and defense on Athenes.
Agreed with this overall, but I don't think it's a class-by-class problem. Actually, some of this is what we set out to solve in the new stuff '

I don't think we're there yet, but we're trying to make ADC's not brainless on itemization, and increase interest for tanks and other characters. Maybe AD Casters don't have variety/fun to that level yet. We do have several "delayed" items we can reintroduce that will help with this once we get them less crazy 

all you have to do is make ad caster items
we dont need 600 word posts about how when why etc
we want items

That's not true - we need to make fun ones, and what is fun for an AD Caster? We added the big ticket damage item for them, so if that's all we needed, then gg, we're done!

Options need to be meaningful and have a purpose, not just "more items" to have more.

You definitely added the big ticket damage item in Black Cleaver, and let me tell you I tried it on Renekton and I was thrilled. It felt really strong. The only thing we still feel like we are missing is our big ticket Spellvamp item. That's what is going to be fun for an AD Caster. What's fun for an AD Caster is going all in and getting super low, and sustaining against all odds with lifesteal and spellvamp. At least I love those moments.
I could agree here, and we don't have to stop with new items with this release. I'll see what we have in the "not ready to release" pile that fits this when I get to work.

You could add an item that actually weakens their synergy with auto attacks.. which is a huge issue with their itemization.
That's actually a really interesting suggestion.

How hard could it of been to add an AD version of Liandry's Lament. Builds out of Brutalizer, Ruby Crystal and Vamp scepter. 1337+475+800+400=3012 gold.
30 AD, 20% spell vamp, 250 HP, 15(20) Armor pen. Your abilities deal an additional 5% damage and melee auto attacks deal an additional 10% damage. 
Name one Ranged AD carry that would want that in their build and still expect to be as strong as a BT or IE carry. It's fun, it's efficient and it's easy to adjust the numbers from there cause they are all fairly low.

It's a great stat stick for AD casters, yes. No disagreement there. Is that the fun item you want, because a fat stat stick is pretty easy. I do know there are conflicted views about spell vamp and lifesteal, though.

I find this point a bit silly, it seems to indicate that there aren't just as many types of ap characters. As far as i know ap has Burst/Assassins, Bruiser AP, Sustained Damage Ap, AOE/supportish ap, even full tank ap's. AD's aren't the only class with diverse roles amidst their damage type, so perhaps it is time we worked on the itemization/item activations rather than making an excuse like that.
The difference is in how the damage is applied. With AP, it's all controlled because we manually set the ratios on everything - so if Swain is tankier, he does less damage with the same AP due to lower ratios. This then encourages him to build more hybrid.

If you make a +200 AD item, you can't lower ratios on auto-attacks - meaning they'll apply equally to all characters when right-clicking. This makes it so the differences between AD items is more split because they have shared stats and conflicted purpose. Not unfixable, but AD items have more edge cases as a result.

In this instance, what does "edge cases" mean? Is it items open to abuse by certain champions, especially outside the class they're intended for?
Relatedly, would a relatively simple way be to have one stat? So for AD assassins, pure AD and a defensive stat plus active, something that you've done with Mecurial. Without multipliers, doesn't the item become less attractive to the edge cases?
Also, I'm struggling to think of a situation where I'd want MoM over Mecurial, except maybe on Urgot and even then... What's your opinion on the comparison?

The risk I'm speaking to looks something like this;

AD Casters in the more busrty/assassin line would love an AD deathcap (like +110 AD, +%AD on abilities) but that item would just be extremely attractive on AD casters and some bruisers, also. That can be OK sometimes, but I think in this example, it throws off our AD Carry curve a lot.

Quoting myself 'cause lazy:In this very thread there have already been some very interesting proposal, like -%AS item and other stuff to avoid ADCs abuse such items.
Right - not saying it's undoable, just sharing the difference in why it is a different set of variables to work with.

That answer had nothing to do with the man`s question which was: is there any case or scenario you would want Maw insteat of Scmithar and what is your general opinion about this?
I have another question, why even make an upgrade from QSS?
It`s only downside was the lack of raw stats and that made it balanced... with the new cleanse item for support that will make carry un cc-able and shutting down someone who is snowballing extremly hard(er).
I find the logic of this completely opposite to intent behind removing elixir of agility.

Oh - good question! Maw should be the superior raw stat efficiency and magic survival choice - if that's not true, we'll need to tweak numbers.


To me, this is like if Galio's passive had a 1:1 MR to AP ratio or if Orianna's shield had a 1:1 AP ratio and you said "Katarina and Fizz can't have Abyssal Scepter because it would make Orianna and Galio too strong." If this hypothetical situation were true, Abyssal Scepter wouldn't be the problem.
I don't feel they're the same, really, because of how these champions play out:

A champion like Riven or Darius can bathe in durability stats and just keep outputting persistent damage for a very long time. They have a direct damage impact from increasing their durability: Every second longer they stand is another second they put out damage.

Compare to Galio: With his current passive numbers, durability does not really make him stronger in any meaningful way outside of just durability. It's nice, for sure, but his DPS doesn't nearly grow to the scale of Darius. He has one big-ticket ultimate, and a number of moderate-cooldown abilities that he will cycle. Sometimes, he'll live long enough to get one more rotation out, and sometimes he won't. There's not an easy tie-in from durability to damage. This is why Abyssal isn't "Well, GG, Galio is owning everyone now" because it's not really double-scaling him.

Same with Orianna, really. Her big draw is crowd control: Shockwave has too long of a cooldown to be used more than once per fight. Dissonance, maybe, but that's the same situation as Galio, in addition to the fact that she's ranged and doesn't have a real need for durability.

Rather, the 1-1 MR scaling or 1:1 AP ratio on Orianna's Protect is just a crazy powerful balance change. Sure Abyssal happens to work rather well here for Galio, but I still wouldn't get Abyssal on Orianna. I'd just have OP shields and I'd keep buying Athene's.

Now, to get back to the Talon versus Riven point: I don't really care if I have 30 more armor on Talon. I'm not really doing anything after the initial burst. I'm stacking damage because it's the one big thing I do.

Let's compere two builds for Talon: In one, I have 5 Bloodthirsters. In the other, I have a bunch of crazy Armor/MR/HP/Damage items. 5 Bloodthirster Talon bursts people for like 2000 damage and lands a basic attack or two, making it 3k damage. Everyone who's a damage threat probably dies at this point before counter-attack. If I do the hybrid durability build, I deal like 1k damage burst and then sit there with mediocre auto-attacks, and no one really cares about me. I'm also a generic bruiser at this point and probably should have bought Wit's End to increase my DPS.

Throw the 5 BT build on Riven, and I'll probably get bursted before I get my third Broken Wings shot off. Throw it on Darius and I'm lucky if I get a dunk on anyone. But you put that hybrid AD/Armor/HP/MR build on them and they're swinging for a lot of damage throughout the whole fight.

That's basically the big difference here. Someone like Talon or Pantheon are going to 1-shot the main damage threat and live because nothing's there to kill them back: They do all their damage before the chance to counter-attack. That's the assassin loop. It doesn't matter how much damage Miss Fortune deals, she doesn't get to shoot. Riven and Darius shrug off damage while hitting everything in sight. You don't really oneshot someone as Darius without giving them a chance to Flash away or lifesteal from you.

At least, that's how I see it.

Brutalizer + Pickaxe - Total cost 2300 g

+45 attack damage
+30 Arpen
15% CDR
Active: Attack damage is increased by 100 for 2 seconds (60 second cooldown)

Oddly enough, the new Sword of the Divine is similar to this, except it actually makes AD assassins use their auto attacks extremely well to assassinate people.

And it's not something you'd pick up on a default AD carry typically.

Nah, instead you pick it up on the uncounterable scaling AD carry, Vayne.
Why would Vayne want to crit three times and then lose all her attack speed?

AD carries want a lot of all three: AD, Crit, and Attack Speed. SotD basically gives you none of the three.

Vayne critting one person three times will not wipe the floor with her opposition. The item goes on cooldown, she loses all the stats she got from the item, and it self saying, "Hmm, I just spent 2,000 gold on something that's giving me 0 stats for the rest of this fight."

Pretty sure I'm going to keep going BT/PD on Vayne after the patch.

Then why not something like this? Change ghostblade to: 
+30 AD 
+15 ArPen 
+15% CDR
Unique Passive: After 5 charges your next attack will crit. Your attacks and spell casts add 1 stack each. Critical hits remove all stacks. 
Unique Active: For 5 seconds or 3 attacks you gain 100% IAS and 100% crit change 60 second CD.

It works on ADC if they want it for the active but the stats arn't great for them and the passive is gated (which is a word you guys like) It also utilizes the AD Caster's AA's like you want and gives them mulitplicitve scaling with their AD (What they want) for a short time from the active. 

Then give Stattik Shiv the Ghostblade active.


Youmuu's Ghostblade is a Melee Carry item.

Youmuu's + Hydra + etc is great for Tryndamere/Yi. We rebalanced them to give some decent items to that archetype.

Sword of the Divine is the item that says, "I have a lot of Attack Damage. I want to turn that into amazing burst." That's why the item gives you 100% crit and AS for 3 attacks. It turns 400 AD Talon into someone who just dealt 2400 damage to you.

It does exactly what it's supposed to do and you know exactly when you want to buy it. It's not supposed to be good for ranged AD carries. Ranged AD carries have their single target build: IE/PD/BT/LW.

Vayne critting one person three times will leave them in a very bad position, probably already dead. If she can kill that bruiser/tank going for her, she is in a way better position than before using it.
I don't disagree that in a vacuum Sword of the Divine is good on AD carries.

But the thing to remember about itemization is that it costs gold. You are buying items instead of other items. There is no way I am giving up BT or PD for this item. And at that point, why would I even care about SotD? 40% more attack speed? I'm already at 30% crit: the active isn't even that good either at that point.

Now, I will give you that an AD carry could say, "I want to be a burst ranged guy." I could honestly see someone like Draven going BT->SotD and saying, "Yeah I'm going to crit my bleed on you three times" and do something cool with that. At that point, it's an interesting choice and a divergent play style, as opposed to, "This is the best AD carry item."

If someone like Xin Zhao or Tryndamere or Master Yi buys that item, you get a new play style: Xin suddenly is a crazy burst man. Trynd gets his dash back basically for free, and Master Yi is really relying on that Wuju Style / Highlander reset. I think these are all cool things, and it actually shifts them more into assassins. However, again, it's not "core" on a "default" build.

Strongly object to putting Riven in the same category as Darius here. Darius is a bruiser who has exponential scaling from time spent in a fight (bigger stacks from his passive replace some of the need for damage items.) If he lives longer, not only is he landing more attacks, but those attacks are dealing more damage, so tankiness is great.

Riven simply can't do that - she needs to build at least some significant amount of damage to work, and building damage also scales her durability. Darius doesn't have another way to keep himself useful in lategame, but Riven does have great scaling to make use of: she is probably closest to the class of a melee carry. And like other melee carries, she will buy more defensive items than a Talon will, for systemic reasons with the class as a whole, not because Riven particularly benefits from building defense.

I would argue that if the game shifted such that another melee carry like Yi could build glass cannon and be effective at a high level, then glass cannon (5x BT or whatever) Riven would also become viable, but remain a suboptimal build on Darius.

I'll give you that Riven has much better AD scaling than Darius, but the fact remains that she must sit there in the battle for ~8 seconds to get her job done. Optimal damage dealing with Riven simply requires ~7 basic attacks. At ~1 attack per second even at level 18, she's simply going to take a while to get through her whole ability combo. Even if you ignored basic attacks completely, she's still got to get through all the button presses. It's going to take some time, and only part of it will overlap with the stun.

But in general I agree. Riven wants to build +AD, that's why I mentioned the AD/Armor/MR/HP build. AD is a core facet of that. She's the closest to "melee carry" of the fighters.

It's nice to know that I said "This is the best AD carry item.", thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Nah, instead you pick it up on the uncounterable scaling AD carry, Vayne.
I'm just pointing out that you don't really want to buy this on Vayne unless you want a totally different playstyle. You don't have to get mad at me.

And still doesn't solve the viability/problem of melee carries in LoL--you're just giving them an item that turns them into an Assassin =/
I posted a few minutes ago about Youmuu's / Hydra. Quicksilver Sash has a nice AD upgrade too.

No need to invent quotes then... And different playstyles for different people...
His quote read to me as, "Nah I'll just buy this on AD carries." All I was trying to do was dispute that claim. You don't want this item on AD carries unless you want to play sort of assassin-ey, which is probably not optimal in most cases.

I'd just like to point out a couple things:

* Fizz likes CDR because he's a sustained melee caster who happens to have a high burst. Especially after Lichbane when he's staggering spells to spam procs. The fact that he has an escape is secondary and more indirectly supports CDR by supporting that playstyle.
* Talon also likes CDR because he needs his ult up as often as possible to burst and his Q has a lowish cooldown, thus pushing it to be usable just after a burst rotation is really strong.
In general, CDR is better on low CD spells. If you get 40% CDR on Karth ult, you get a couple more ults per game; on Hate Spike/Rampage/Taste Their Fear, you have 40% more DPS and multiple more casts over an average engagement.

Neither Fizz nor Talon really gain much from CDR: Almost all of their sustained damage comes from DoTs. Look both at Noxian Diplomacy and Seastone Trident. CDR affects neither of those. The base damage on activation for either of those (or Piercing Strike) are quite low.

I feel in almost every case, these champions gain more total DPS from +AP or +AD and penetration than they do from CDR.

Also, I feel like ~70 seconds is about as low as a cooldown needs to get. Respawn timers are around 60 seconds once champions reach level 16. I think it would be quite rare to get into situations where your major cooldowns aren't available.

Am I the only dang person who likes CDR on Fizz?
Am I the only person who LIKES having his UNTARGETABLE ABILITY on short notice?
Am I crazy for liking that?
I thought we were encouraging alternate playstyles or something.

Sorry, I spoke too briefly.

Fizz does not gain much damage from CDR. As any champion who has a lot of mobility abilities, CDR makes him a lot slipperier. That one I will totally give you. 

Uncounterable scaling, how do you counter %Max HP True Damage?
Certainly, Silver Bolts hits really hard. I'll give you that one 100%. You still tend to reduce Vayne's damage output with Armor/HP. Also, as with most AD carries, just try to kill her :P

But yes, Vayne hits quite hard. However, Sword of the Divine only gives her 3 attacks at this increased rate before she loses the AS as a whole completely. It's super inefficient on her, because AS is actually an incredibly important DPS stat for her overall.

Talon's Q goes 4 > 2.4 seconds. This goes from 1 EQRW burst to EQRWQ and another Q quickly thereafter if the target didn't quite die. Also having rake on a 6 second cooldown is very nice.

Fizz Q goes 6 > 3.6 and his E goes 8 > 4.8. He's a lot slipperier and stickier if he gets maxed CDR, and it lets him spam lichbane procs like crazy. Trust me, you don't want to fight 40% CDR fizz with a lich bane. You'll wish you were Jax or another hyperscaling bruiser *very* quickly.

The principle's the same on Orianna actually; she gains immeasurable benefit from having that lower cooldown ball repositioner, even if her ult doesn't benefit a ton.

This is also the reason one almost always maxes the lowest CD spell (see Eve, Hecarim, Fizz, Talon, Rengar, ...); despite a relatively minor amount more flat max damage by maxing other spells, you get so much more from reducing spell CDs than from 20-80 more burst.

tl;dr cdr op, try it on more casters

Sure, technically CDR does increase DPS. I probably should stop speaking too briefly on topics like that, because the math does say that yes, if I have 40% CDR on Talon or Fizz, I will deal more damage on them than if I did not. That is something I will give you.

However, you don't get 40% CDR for free. Outside of Golem Buff/Blue Elixir/Brutalizer which you could do and then it works out for you, I wouldn't make any other build sacrifices. I don't want Athene's on Fizz. I'd rather spend that 3k on a Deathcap, Void Staff, or Abyssal Scepter. For the same gold, I get much more damage out of the build. That's the main distinction. What am I giving up by buying cooldown reduction? In general, if you're giving up damage for it, it's not the optimal way to build damage. There are other benefits, for sure, but I wouldn't typically characterize damage output as the main one.

Thats what pisses me off, when you make a suggestion for an item, then a riot employee says no because thats not ideal in every situation.

Just makes you want to say STFU and let me play. If we played accordig to riots recommended items then the game would be a lot worst then where it is now, regrowth pedant on lux anyone? why the **** is that even there?

I play garen, a mix of cdr and attack damage, with 1 health item at the most. Everyone says its wrong, but you know what, its fun for me, i get 14+ kills a game, less then 5 deaths most of the time, and 15+ assists. Yet according to riot, this is wrong, garen doesnt have a single damage item recommended i his build, hes supposed to build majority of his items pure tanks. Well STFU and let me play.

Dont tell me that you wont have the item because its not ideal, put the item in game and then let your metrics tell you if the item is being used or not. i guarantee you if you had more items diversity even stat combinations that are considered unorthodox, someone would make it work and people would use is.

Presently, our recommended items aren't very good. They're built for completely new players so they don't fall on their face with the champion. We have no qualms with choosing whatever build you want. In fact, our new recommended items will have different categories, such as Offense and Defense, so that a new player can say, "I want to do more damage as Garen" and get some suggested items for that role.

It's not about having an item be ideal or not. That's up to you. What we're typically saying here is not, "No, you can't have Spell Vamp, mister Pantheon." What we're saying is, "This won't actually help you, and in fact it just makes Riven even better than you than she already is."

Going back to the example Xypherous posted with Manamune: We're aware Tear of the Goddess is really only great on 2-3 champions. We're not looking to remove the item. Rather, we're just trying to find a way to make +Mana good on more champions so that more people get a use out of it.

Try to think about all the Season Three systems changes as new items for AD Casters/assassins: Cheaper Long Swords. Brutalizer and Last Whisper working together. Upgrade for Brutalizer that isn't a trap (Youmuu's -> Black Cleaver). Chain Vests and Guardian Angel nerfed. Sword of the Divine. These are all build options that work reasonably well for anyone who wants AD. But they're really awesome and optimal for AD Casters/Assassins. To me, that's a huge win.

I love Athenes on fizz, because it functions as CDR + AP + blue-buff-in-a-can. I don't build it first, that would be dumb, but as a third or fourth item? Heck yes, ill definitely take it over Abyssal. And as just posted, Frozen Heart. Fizz is worthless lategame unless you plan to be cycling in and out of a fight, and you can do that better with a solid armor item. Guess which one happens to benefit Fizz's playstyle the most? :3

And on Talon, I'd have no problem running CDR boots actually. There's no arpen boots and while he kind of wants tenacity, he can get away without it a lot of the time. Add in CDR masteries and runes and all you really need is brutalizer.

(this is going to change a lot for S3 when I have to mess around with DFG vs deathcap vs other stuff)

You guys are basically just defeating me at every turn aren't you.

You're right. Pantheon and Talon have an easy CDR path with Ionian Boots. Fizz actually does want CDR as a champion because being slipperier is better.

Fair enough. Only thing I will say and stand behind is that CDR is not the best source of +damage for these champions. But you're right on everything else.

<3. Thanks for your patience 

Sorry, but if SpellVamp is a trap, new Black Cleaver will be too... It look good at first,but you argued long about how Talon or Panth have to burst their target, Black Cleaver is a ramp up ArP, you wont have it full effect untill the end of your burst...
Two things on this:

1. It's always going to be in effect partially, so you'll get something out of it no matter what

2. You'll have at least one other AD-champion on your team, so whether you're softening up targets for Graves, or Miss Fortune coats the enemy team in Black Cleaver procs for you, there's still something going on here that helps your team.

In general, though, you're right. Last Whisper is going to be better than Black Cleaver for "I want to burst this one target down right now." I'm hoping we do a good job of informing players that this is a very important distinction: Black Cleaver is "softer" than Last Whisper for single target killing.

I replied to that, as well---melee ADCs problem has never been needing more sustained DPS, a cleave, or more lifesteal (thant they can currently get); it's always been burst and CC---ghotblade and Hydra do nothing to help this out.
Yes, scimitar gives you something to address both, but the freakin' thing costs nearly as much as an IE and means your damage is laughable if you rush it, so I really don't see how it's addressing the problem either--it's just shifting you more towards the tanky derp archetype.

I don't think we solved melee AD Carries. You are absolutely right: They have a problem with dying extremely fast. The one good thing that helps them here is that if they have more efficient +damage sources, then they can more quickly go buy defensive stats. Alternatively, they can do the SotD thing and play a bit assassiney. Also, the new jungle is more durable and worth more gold late-game, so a melee carry can crush through the jungle for gold income lategame, helping with their laning troubles.

I don't think this is really the answer you wanted to hear, and again, you're right that Melee AD Carries are probably not great in high Elo after this. There are a few things in the Season Three patch that nudge them in the right direction. I personally really like Trynd/Yi and would like to play them in Ranked successfully. Let's hope we get there.

Just remember us dedicated Fizz/Talon players have invested multiple hundreds of games and hours worth of theorycraft and stat analysis ;p

This again speaks to the high disparity in options for AD Assassins itemization. Fizz has tons of options to choose from (and even more in S3) to react to different team comps. Sure in a majority of games he will go a standard build, but there are outliers that a good Fizz player knows how to adapt to and change his build.
This really can't be done for someone like Talon. He has to build a certain way every game, because he has no choice

Fair point. Xypherous spoke to AD Assassins really just being brought for one purpose: Bursting out a champion really hard with +AD and +Pen. However, I think there are a few options within that. Manamune/Muramana, SotD, things like that. I'm hoping you'll find a few choices here to make some interesting build distinctions.

Not saying that because I'm facing Vayne, I lose, because her early game can be weak, I simply strongly dislike forms of hard to counter damage. To me, it doesnt make sense that even if you have armor or health, she is assured to deal 8% of your health every 3 hits.
You're totally entitled to that opinion. A lot of people find that frustrating. The fact that there is some form of atypical counter-play doesn't really negate the "I feel dumb for trying to itemize against you" feeling.

For what it's worth, it feels really good as a Vayne player .

Personally i think the pen changes shouldve been like that since launch but better late then never.
And i really apprecieate the changes being made i season 3, quite honest i play less on live because im waiting for the big changes of season 3. But what i see from items being made cheaper is just getting to them faster, but at the end of the day the builds are still exactly the same.
Like, here s question, do you remember Executioners calling at all? I remember it, i used to build it core on garen and poppy, i loved it back when it was on hit, you guys changed it to an activated item and i swear to god i havent seen this thing build i over a year. nerfed so hard it might as well be taken out of the game like innervating locked. But its not, its still there.
Why is an item like that allowed to exist, or nashors tooth, lich bane, all of the tenacity items but an item that offers AD + Health + mp/hp regen. or reduces attack speed to increase attack damage, would be out of the question because its only going to be used on a few champs and not the majority of the subsect that its designed for?
Or even more options for unique passives, like movement speed, right now i HAVE to build phantom dancer if i want more movement speed beyond boots, or lich bane, so if i wanted to make a glass cannon kiter as say a brusier or an ap, i really cant. Sure ap have lich bane, but get real that item is absurd and i dont want it half the time.
What if i wanted just AD + movement speed, or ap + movement speed, just to give a example of other item combinations that could and should exist but dont.

Executioner's Calling was actually really good. And we're bringing EC back to the "on-hit, add Grievous Wounds" so at least that's coming back 

I don't really understand your point about "What about an item that adds AD but reduces AS?" when compared to your point about, "We're building the same items every game." The equation you're trying to maximize is "Physical damage against a target with X armor." Whether it's Bloodthirster or "+AD and -AS" there's going to be exactly one best "this gives me the most AD" item. Are you upset that you're buying the same Bloodthirster as Vayne? Or do you just want a change of scenery?

I'm not doing this to call you out, I'm just trying to figure out what you're asking for: Better adaptation in AD caster builds? New shiny things? Let me know!

I play garen relyng more on his active and passive from his w, then his passive health regen. Outside of the lane phase i dont care about his passive regen. But i do care that i cant bait you into thinking you can kill me.
Ive gotten triple, and quadra kills using garens w at the right time and walking away with 10 to 20hp. Its that high risk, living on the edge ad play style i appreciated on garen, and i love that i have that option.
Usually my only defensive items on garen are maw and sunfire.

Just going to reiterate: There's nothing wrong with AD Garen. Recommended items are for new players, not some kind of "Big Brother knows what's best for you and you're wrong if you don't do it"






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