Statikk On Shaco Changes

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Statikk On Shaco

If you missed it yesterday, Shaco got hit hard on the PBE patch. However it's always important to remember that the PBE is a place to test fun/different kind of changes out. Abilities usually change many times before they make it to live (if they even do).

Like to just chime in to help give some insight on the topic.

Firstly, League of Legends is an iterative process. We are constantly testing different implementations, getting feedback, analyzing the results, and re-continuing the cycle.

This is never more apparent and true with changes that go to the PBE. Anything that shows up on there: #1 may be false or incomplete (due to faulty data mining) and #2 is very much subject to change. As I always say, I would never trust unofficial sources to be anywhere near 100% accurate to our actual patch. For these reasons, the PBE and what eventually goes to Live are very rarely the same.

As far as actually addressing Shaco, I think it's undeniable that the Season 3 changes to the jungle (namely Boxes being an effective way of mitigating damage taken) have made him more effective. One of the largest issues we've always had with Shaco's design is his lack of counterplay in early game situations. Even at the very early points in the game, Shaco has an unrivaled tool set to gank with (a blink, stealth, and multiple forms of CC on top of the typical Red Lizard buff). When Shaco gets ahead, there is very little counterplay his victim has other than to hope Flash is up and they are near a turret (in fact when gank victims turn to attempt to retreat without a blink or dash, they are actually putting themselves at a further disadvantage due to Backstab).

Our goals with these changes are simply to reduce his early gank effectiveness. Obviously the first iteration (the one you guys saw on PBE) where we completely ripped his passive slow was a bit extreme. Even before the Shaco outcry posts had begun, the internal version of the nerf was already changed to be a reduction to Two-Shiv Poison's slow at early ranks (still scales up to 30% at rank 5). As far as the Deceive range nerf goes, our team is pretty confident that this is reasonable as it makes his Deceive range equal to Flash which means players playing against Deceive now only have to worry about the addition of stealth since any jump Shaco can now do, any champion could do the same by using Flash offensively. To be clear, these changes are in no way aimed at balancing the viability of Shaco at a tournament level, they are more aimed at a philosophical level of design addressing how players should be able to respond to playing against Shaco.

Anyway, I'm always glad you guys are constantly passionate about the changes that we're making, it gives us feedback and keeps us in check...but the majority of the PBE overreaction feels unneeded and melodramatic. I much prefer threads like this which have a much more open-minded view and are looking for insight into why a decision is being made and perhaps offer alternative suggestions, solutions, or counterpoints as to why this may or may not be a good decision.

Comments

  • #24 FleurDeLiz

    The problem with this kind of change to the clown is simple: if he isn't an early ganking terror, he's absolutely worthless. There are so many better split pushers in the game and even those champs contribute so much more to teamfights than Shaco does.

     

    Rework him, dammit, if you're not going to allow him to exist in his current state.

  • #10 Toinouchou

    In my opinion this is quite an ignorant analysis by statikk. Shaco has a very simple conterplay it is called a ward. Start flask + ward don't push your lane before level 3 or 4 and well played you countered shaco early ganks. And I am talking about champs without a form of mobility skill, if you have one of those grab it level 1 or 2 and you don't even need the ward. Shaco has two strenghts, first is early ganking power second is elusiveness. If you ignore the fact he can early gank effectively of course he doesn't have counter play but that is the same for any champ you are not TRYING to counter play.

    Wanna talk about early ganks counterplay? What is the counterplay to flash + W from a maokai? But apparently this is not worth adressing since it's been around since forever and nobody really ever worried about it. I am not even mentionning the fact that Mao not only ganks as well as Shaco and has a comparable early burst, but later on he transition amazingly well even if he failed everything he did, while if Shaco failed his early ganks well...

    At least there is one true sentence in this anwser : "To be clear, these changes are in no way aimed at balancing the viability of Shaco at a tournament level". It was not viable at tournament level and it still isn't so rest assured Shaco will remain in his wheel chair until noobs learn to ward

    Morello is always asking to give them mesurable data and not "x is strong because can do y so it is op". This is pretty much what stattik does here. You want to nerf shaco? Show us his overall pick rate and win rate to back up the fact it even needs to be nerfed

    Shaco is a high risk and hard to play (vs smart players) champ but very rewarding if you succeed during his thin window of opportunity early game, it is also fun to play. If you do not like Shaco's kit rework him but I don't feel a need to break his legs atm, he is not breaking the meta, he is nothing near OP. As a Shaco enthusiast I can already bearly play him in ranked games because he is so easy to counter and now I feel he is hit by the nerf bat for no valid reason.

    Last edited by Toinouchou: 1/22/2013 3:43:22 AM
  • #11 aTomic

    He needs a rework. At this point they can't buff his lategame without boiling his early game over. Shaco interplay consists of "don't bother targeting Shaco, either you're dead or you're not, and you won't catch him anyways".

    I think that's why I like this nerf. He's already a bad champ, this nerf just dissuades people from picking him up just so they can teabag squishies early game. Teamfights? What teamfights? Hopefully he'll get a rework soon and Shaco might actually be some fun to play against.

  • #15 Toinouchou

    What is bothering me is that Shaco always did this. Maybe it is frustrating to play against but to be fair it is not frustrating a very long time as Shaco will fall off so hard after 10-15min depending on his early success. The only new thing is that all junglers got slightly worse because they take more damage in the S3 jungle but Shaco take a bit less compared to them because boxes tank 2 to 3 shots, which they already did in S2 if u jungled him properly. It is not even better than before it is only more valuable because sustain is more valuable now.

    I admit this totaly improved his early game, because in S2 if you dared fail your first gank or got invaded and your jungle stolen well it is was game over for you, unless the enemy team decided to switch to retard mode and pushed their lane with 30% hp without a ward. You were stuck in a jungle that you would farm slowly and without sustain for a pityful amount of gold and exp and could only wait for the ennemy to do something totaly stupid.
    Now if you fail you can actualy recover from it and try to gank again. But I suppose Riot do not like this and decided to break his legs.

    Anyway I don't think we will see a shaco rework before a looooooooooooong time since they have many more champs on the list before him. I am afraid Shaco is now gonna follow pre-buff eve's footsteps.

     

  • #12 Gameguy301
    Shaco has always been a sore spot, but "maokai flash W = shaco" don't kid yourself. Shaco shows up to your lane lvl 3 with both buffs while your still level 1. pop up RIGHT BEHIND YOU with a 10% boosted crit and a double perma slow. How do I know? I've been doing it sense beta it's been almost 4 years since the first time I did it. Your sore because the clown got nerfed sorry your toes got stepped on but that doesn't mean lash out. Ward? The man jumps walls if there's a blind spot ANYWERE he'll find it and take that route instead.

    Shaco has needed a rework since season 1, his pick and win rates in tournaments is abysmal but his win rates in low Elo And solo que are quit high. He's just like old xin, and old eve before there reworks. I find shacos current design puzzling of all the broken mechanics, toxic gameplay, and for lack of a better phase "newb tears" shaco ammases riot just doesn't change him, it boggles my mind and has continued to confuse me for years now. His nature never changes feast on weak players and disorganized teams and then proceed to fall apart from a horrid late game. When a champion is not desirable for high skilled well organized teams but crushes the lower players its time to look into some changes.

    I like this nerf, it's out of the blue and it's used to cripple an already marginalized champion, when you've been around as long as I have you know that's a signal, it its a sign straight from riot that reads "we're fed up with the current design as we're looking for an overhaul" after all this time I like the ring of that.
    Last edited by Gameguy301: 1/22/2013 5:45:01 AM
  • #16 Toinouchou

    Quote from Gameguy301»

    Shaco has always been a sore spot, but "maokai flash W = shaco" don't kid yourself.

    I stopped reading here. Where did I say maokai fkash w = shaco? Please do not just assume my point of view in a way that suit you.
    I am gonna repeat myself since you did not read me the first time. I was pointing out the vacuum of Statikk point where he states there is no counter play to Shaco's ganking because :

    1. It is false since you can ward and see him come like any jungler with a gap closer.
    2. If you assume wards are not considered counter play, is it not ironic something like flash + w (or just regular w) on maokai which has been around in soloQ and tournaments since over a year now is not considered like a toxic mechanic without a counterplay while shaco's Q is considered as such.

    Edit : Decided to read the rest of the post anyway.

    Shaco shows up to your lane lvl 3 with both buffs while your still level 1.

    Can't do this anymore, it was nerfed too a long time ago.

    Like I said and we seem to agree on this, his early ganking is godly but this is precisely his main strength. You trade off so many aspects of the game on Shaco in order to access this early god level. And we also agree on the fact that he is noob stomper, if you know him a bit it is not hard to counter a Shaco. And once again that is what feels unfair, some much more obvious champions -thinking about Darius here but I could name some more- are allowed to stomp noobs but not Shaco anymore.

    Now don't get me wrong if this is the omen of a rework that would balance out his gameplay, I would welcome it with open arms. I love playing Shaco my only wish is to be able to play it more often which I can't with his present kit. But do they really need to break a champion before they make it viable again? Is it written in some holy developer's manual that you need to make something bad before you make it good again? Why not leave the champ as it is as long as it is not breaking the game so you can still enjoy some aspects of his gameplay and release the improvements later on? I can only hope your instincs are sharp on this one.

    On a personal note, this is the internet I am allowed to "lash out" as much as I feel like especialy when I am actualy trying to make valid points and argue.
    I did not go : "OMG f%$! you Riot y u nerf shako. Naw I cant stomp 1100 elo anymoar. Maokai op FlashW u r dead bc kk oddone plays Mao so npnp buy skins and we don't nerf!!!!!"

    Last edited by Toinouchou: 1/22/2013 7:11:40 AM
  • #18 Gameguy301
    crippling before a rework is a common pattern, necessitated by the type of rework, there are many different types but this one says "crushes lowbies" making tweaks to the live design while retooling the kit internally is a lot of work and can even be distracting. crippling the champ while working on a rework defangs the beast while they rebuild it. They don't have to hear QQ about champ "X" OP on the forums or scratch their head on how to tweak a kit that their going to be replacing in the near future.
  • #20 Toinouchou

    Makes sense.

  • #21 LolLolLolJake

    So I take it Tryndamere and Gangplank are getting reworked again, considering Riot nerfed them into the ground a year ago and left them there to rot.

  • #22 exacerberus

    Shaco already had some counterplay: it was called "lategame". But I agree with Gameguy301 about the power if his early game ganks: a good Shaco could easily cause tower-hugging syndrome; also the Oracle nerf helped him quite a bit in S3. Overall he's one of those conceptually broken champions like Evelynn: their nature is very binary, so or they get overnerfed to compensate the inherent advantages of their kits, or they just abuse them to kill people (especially those greedy with wards or simply overextending because stupid).

    I like the idea this initial change may just the be beginning of complete overhaul of Shaco's kit, so that lategame he could be something more than just a split-pusher and an opportunistic assassin/pub-stomper; but I guess only Riot knows the plans for him.

  • #23 StaleTaste

    Quote from Toinouchou »

    Quote from Gameguy301»

    Shaco has always been a sore spot, but "maokai flash W = shaco" don't kid yourself.

    I stopped reading here. Where did I say maokai fkash w = shaco? Please do not just assume my point of view in a way that suit you.
    I am gonna repeat myself since you did not read me the first time. I was pointing out the vacuum of Statikk point where he states there is no counter play to Shaco's ganking because :

    1. It is false since you can ward and see him come like any jungler with a gap closer.
    2. If you assume wards are not considered counter play, is it not ironic something like flash + w (or just regular w) on maokai which has been around in soloQ and tournaments since over a year now is not considered like a toxic mechanic without a counterplay while shaco's Q is considered as such.

    Edit : Decided to read the rest of the post anyway.

    Shaco shows up to your lane lvl 3 with both buffs while your still level 1.

    Can't do this anymore, it was nerfed too a long time ago.

    Like I said and we seem to agree on this, his early ganking is godly but this is precisely his main strength. You trade off so many aspects of the game on Shaco in order to access this early god level. And we also agree on the fact that he is noob stomper, if you know him a bit it is not hard to counter a Shaco. And once again that is what feels unfair, some much more obvious champions -thinking about Darius here but I could name some more- are allowed to stomp noobs but not Shaco anymore.

    Now don't get me wrong if this is the omen of a rework that would balance out his gameplay, I would welcome it with open arms. I love playing Shaco my only wish is to be able to play it more often which I can't with his present kit. But do they really need to break a champion before they make it viable again? Is it written in some holy developer's manual that you need to make something bad before you make it good again? Why not leave the champ as it is as long as it is not breaking the game so you can still enjoy some aspects of his gameplay and release the improvements later on? I can only hope your instincs are sharp on this one.

    On a personal note, this is the internet I am allowed to "lash out" as much as I feel like especialy when I am actualy trying to make valid points and argue.
    I did not go : "OMG f%$! you Riot y u nerf shako. Naw I cant stomp 1100 elo anymoar. Maokai op FlashW u r dead bc kk oddone plays Mao so npnp buy skins and we don't nerf!!!!!"

    See, the thing is, maokai doesn't have ward immunity and he can only flash+w every five minutes. That is one assured gank, maybe two ( that isn't even completely assured) before teamfights start, really. Shaco's q is a blink/stealth/pass through wards/free crit amplified by backstab ability. In one ability, not having to use a summoner. It has an under 15 second cooldown. It is inarguably one of the best and most broken abilities in the game.

    There have been multiple times when I have warded the lane bush, tribrush, and far down the lane top lane. There is no conceivable way that a jungler should be able to gank me if I spend 225 gold on wards. Yet shaco (or evelynn, but that's sort of different) is the only jungler who can, so I either have to buy vision wards (375 gold) or sit there without wards grinding my teeth. I welcome this change.

  • #9 zadkiel7

    seriously..you are devastating some old champions..u nerf shaco,u nerf blitz again(his mana)so i don`t thing we are overreacting..but i guess thresh need to be sold so we must destroy blitz right? :( i am very dissapointed with some certain changes while other heroes get buffs,even get skins(although they have a wide variety)-u just don`t judge champions with proper and same criteria imo..with these changes u make heroes unplayable rather than helping them and helping us :(

  • #13 Gameguy301
    Normally I'd indulge your paranoid schemes but blitz has been banned in high profile tournaments for months now. This isn't some crack pot scheme to push sales. The only sales going up is tin foil, or do you use aluminum?
    Last edited by Gameguy301: 1/22/2013 5:56:59 AM
  • #25 zadkiel7

    if that is what u understood....w/e i dont care for skins anyway,i am just implying that he will get another nerf while he already got one and some certain nerfs-buffs don`t improve the game,and i said imo,if u disagree save your irony for others

  • #26 Dredbr1nger

    I'd like to correct you in that one, Blitzcrank has not been banned in high profile tournaments for a very long time.

     

    When someone knows how to play him good, Blitz becomes a targeted ban.  He is not a high profile permaban.

    Last edited by Dredbr1nger: 1/22/2013 3:08:28 PM
  • #5 LKFTW

    Isnt Shaco barely viable as it is now considering how he falls off harder than most played champs already? Doing this takes so much from him and makes him ever more complicated to play. Additionally Im not even sure Shaco is on par with other assassins in the game his kit is the only thing that allows him to be played at all. His dmg is well below that of khaz and zed and even and if you try and split push, they push twice as hard as him so what is even the point of using him anymore? They mention they want counter-play but if you weaken his early game he will become entirely unplayable, that isn't counter-play at all.

  • #7 aTomic

    Let's be clear: Shaco was a bad champ before these changes, and he's still a bad champ. At least now he's a bad champ that doesn't get to shit all over everyone else before transitioning into utter uselessness.

    Anything that results in fewer Shacos picked is A-OK with me.

  • #17 bichiotero

    Please dont compare an assassin like shaco with ad casters that you call assassins like kz or zed. They are completely different types of champions since shaco CAN rely on autoatacks pretty well but the other ones fall in dps after their initial burst.

    I agree with the part that says that weaken his early game is like making him unplayable. Its not like he has a better lategame. He doesnt. Thats the problem with the early gank nerf.

  • #1 imwithn00b

    Why don't they remove Shaco from the game?
    RIP Shaco

  • #2 stuffedcheesybread

    Quote from imwithn00b »

    Why don't they remove Shaco from the game?
    RIP Shaco

    Actually I am ok with this haha

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