Xypherous Goes Over Today's PBE Changes

Xypherous Goes Over Today's PBE Changes

Hey, I'll be talking briefly about the major changes in today's PBE patch to give you an idea of where we're going and what we're experimenting with so that you guys will be both less confused and more informed about the changes we're currently tinkering with. 

Keep in mind that everything in PBE is experimental and subject to change but as time goes on - I'd like to try to explain some of the more possibly confusing / relevant stuff or stuff that might not be immediately apparent on first glance.

Hopefully I'll get to do these explanations a little more often - I won't do my usual long Q&A at this time since a lot of this stuff is experimental and is subject to further tuning - mostly because testing turns out to be a lot more effective than discussion most of the time.

So let's start:

Bilgewater Cutlass

Recipe: Long Sword + Vamp Sceptre + 200 Gold = 1400 Gold total from 1950 gold.

40 AD --> 25 AD
10% LS --> 12% LS
150 Active Damage --> 100 Active Damage
30% MS slow --> 25% MS Slow
400 range --> 500 range

So, our major problem with Bilgewater Cutlass has been that, while attractive, it never really felt like the utility you purchased was anywhere near the price. It's meant to be a cool utility pickup that offered some lane sustain and gave you a chance at an all-in but it seemed to be just generally ineffective unless your character already had an all-in.

Hence, we're trying to tune it so that it becomes a better utility pick-up and slightly more usable in general at the cost of some of the active power.

Blade of the Ruined King

Recipe: Cutlass + Dagger + Dagger + 500 Gold = 2700 Gold total from 2850 Gold on live.

* 45 AD --> 30 AD
* 0% AS --> 40% AS
* 10% LS --> 0% LS
* Passive now heals you for 30% of your total attack damage, rather than 50% of the damage dealt. This is essentially premitigation lifesteal.
* Active slow/speed duration is now 4 seconds from 2 seconds.
* Active now deals 100 + 10% of the targets maximum life - serving as an execute or a wind-up peel
* Range increased to 550 from 400.

Numbers still need further tuning.

So our problems with the previous iteration of the PBE BoRK was that it still suffered from a number of cross-purposes. This version is most likely way too mathy to be entirely elegant - ideally we'd find a more elegant phrasing of it - but this is kind of the sledgehammer approach. We'll probably try to find ways to refine it.

Essentially, the problem with the 'sustain-tank' approach that the old BoRK was after was simply it gave you the sustain frequently at a time where you didn't need it and as you got low. By the time you wound up needing the sustain near the end of the fight, the item simply didn't give you any sustain - hence the move towards a more flattened sustain approach.

The active is either an execute for those close fights and then further MS to capitalize on cleaning up the fight - or a mid-fight kiting tool.

The approach here is to move BoRK away from being a primary damage slot item and into your attack speed slot as a Carry. BoRK should be ideally competing with your 2nd major multiplicative item, like Shiv or Phantom Dancer - rather than your first big damage item.

Also - I am now deathly scared of Irelia - but at the very least she's not assassinating squishies exponentially faster than tanks with it. 

Taric 

* Shatter no longer gives a flat 10-30 armor aura, instead radiating X% of Taric's armor to allies.
* Shatter has an armor scaling damage ratio.
* Taric's passive changed to deal X% of his maximum mana as bonus damage.


Taric is a generalist support pick that has a success rate far far far above his compatriots at the moment. We have a couple options on where to go with him at this point - but in general, Taric suffers from being a generalist lane bully to transitioning to a walking ball of aura statistics for his team. 

This tends to lead to Taric feeling like he does very little overall to the team - even if he is adding something like 1000 Gold to everyone's base statistics.

Keep in mind, we're still heavily iterating the numbers on him. In the end, Taric should be a compelling pick if you are facing a heavy attack damage team and we'll adjust the aura value until he fits that mold.

Taric's base AD reduction is mostly compensate for his passive attack damage which is still undergoing numerical tuning. 

Hecarim 

* Spirit of Dread (W) heal from damage flattened to 20% at all ranks from 10-30%
* Rampage (Q) base damage increased slightly at all ranks.

Hecarim is a character who is entirely dependent on levels for his major game advantage - The terrific power of his 'W' sustain once he actually gets the levels to fuel it. 

This also leads to his major weakness - in that when he falls behind, he tends to be terrible at almost all ranks. We're essentially flattening this 'W' curve out a bit better such that Hecarim has a more consistent performance. Hecarim is already fairly intensive to play from a mechanics perspective with a lot of subtle nuances in successful 'E' and 'R' positioning so the added level pressure seems superflous a lot of the time.

Warmog's Armor 

* Regeneration lowered to 1% from 1.5%.

We're mostly concerned at the moment with the early laning snowball case of this item, rather than the teamfight potential - considering the way we're trying to position BoRK. Depending on how well the BoRK tuning works out - the majority of the pain point of Warmog's should be how well it allows you to win the lane by mere stubborness and be immune to ganks.

Vayne / Tristana / Ashe 

The current version of PBE has some heavy modifications to these character's attack speed per level statistics.

Vayne: 3.1% --> 4.5% ASPD / Level
Tristana: 3.01% --> 4.5% ASPD / Level
Ashe: 3.1% --> 4% ASPD / Level

The goal of this change is mostly to fulfill the basic promise of Vayne / Tristana. At level 18, these characters are supposed to absolutely destroy the enemy team - so long as you can get them there. They are, along with Kog'maw, some of the truest ranged carries in League of Legends at the moment.

However, with the decrease in power from itemization - these characters are suffering from a mid-game slump and a farming slump - thus power in their levels seemed to make sense for addressing their basic curve. This change basically ensures the power level of these traditionally weaker early-game carries for guaranteed power late game.

As for Ashe, she's kind of the ultimate late game utility/kite carry - thus the attack speed here is mostly so that she is always able to fulfill her role as kiting carry. Attack speed is a major factor in being able to "orb-walk" to poorly use DoTA Jargon (Attack Move fluidity, roughly).

Further Tuning 

We'll be trying to look at the various AS options for this patch and trying to ensure that AD carries have sufficient options for customizing their damage load-outs based on playstyle / needs of the game.

Additionally - we'll probably be looking more at the Bulwark / Locket / Sunfire combination and trying to assess how powerful this defensive teamfight style is, as it's been very effective in LCS thus far.

So the combine cost of gunblade is going up? 
Yes - but the total cost of Gunblade should remain exactly the same as on live.

Taric 
Taric is unquestionably above his peers at the moment in terms of overall power level - so in the end, keep in mind that it *is* intended to be an overall nerf to his laning presence.

Was it too strong early levels? 
Yes.

Xypherous - Are you not worried that the change in sustain type on BoRK will turn it from being an item well used on ADCs against bruisers to an item best used by bruisers? 
The item is best used against bruisers. I'm not particularly worried about it *who* uses it to kill bruisers - only that bruisers have someone to fear.

We're definitely aiming for the rest of the statistics to synergize slightly better with heavy autoattackers. Granted there are some attack speed centric bruisers in the lot but on the whole, the statistics push it to be slightly better for ranged carries.

However, the fun of PBE is that actual games pretty much outweighs any amount of coherent theorycraft arguments I could do.

Also since you guys clearly love the league of warmogs, why not bring in Kitae's Bloodrazor ffs 
Kitae's is the ideal bruiser item to use on squishies - so I'm not sure how it helps.

and if I built the item on her, would the new "lifesteal" effect of Blade of the Ruined King proc with her passive? 
Doesn't interact with her passive at all - her passive adds damage, it doesn't actually increase her total attack damage

However, her ultimate will enhance this effect at the moment, as her ultimate enhances her attack damage.

Could you give a reason behind the Garen nerf? 
Garen is among a very special group of 10 or so champions that are statistically much much stronger than his compatriots. 

That's pretty much it - we had a choice of hitting durability or damage, so we decided to hit the free durability in lane.

Why is Kitae's a good item against squishes but BoRK not? 
1. Consider the damage type that Kitae's does.
2. Consider which class gets MR / Level and is likely to have built some or heavy MR.

3. Consider which class is likely to get the most autoattacks off in a fight.
4. Consider which class wants the least amount of autoattacks to kill a target.

5. Consider which class wants an ideal single-slot item to provide relevant damage for the entire game.
6. Consider which class wants to stack multiple damage items to be relevant and wants to have as many multiplier "hooks" as possible.

7. Consider which class will pretty much always have a Last Whisper in their build at end-game.

Wait Xyph don't you have any comments to make about wriggles and how it is always more efficient to keep it at razor stage and not upgrade it? 
This thread is purely about the current PBE changes and what it implies for this patch.

Is there an issue with BotRK being a first big item on players? I think it's a nice counter to Warmogs which costs about the same. 
From testing - while it's an ideal first big item on some attack speed focused bruisers (like Irelia and Jax) - the item is only really a threat damage-wise late game, due to how the passive scales with the health of the target.

However, on carries, typically a BT or an IE is a much better first item choice for overall DPS at the time in which you would get those items - That is, while BoRK might be the ideal damage item if you have a single damage item fighting 4000 health targets, if you rush BoRk - it's almost always the wrong choice because no one breaks the health threshold when you rush it.

I just really don't want to see him become a gimped champ that doesn't really fit any role, especially considering this is coming off being the best all around support in the game. 
The benefit of being the best all-around support in the game is that, even if you get nerfed, you go from 'best all-around support' to 'a good support comparable with others.'

This is assuming Gunblade loses 0 stats. If it does, then this would actually suck a lot. 
Gunblade actually got 2% lifesteal - because Cutlass now has 12% LS. Why am I allowed to just randomly add 2% lifesteal to the final item? Because overall, during the build-up - you tend to be much weaker... kind of.

The combine cost is also pretty hefty now and somewhat unwieldy to finish - hence additional premium due to opportunity cost.

Another thing about Bortk is that you're killing its usage on champions that don't want attackspeed (Zed, Lee Sin). Aren't you worried about it being too specialized? 
Super Extra Blunt Midnight Edition Alpha Ex Turbo: If you're not auto-attacking on those champions, especially Lee Sin, who has infinite energy when you auto attack you are doing it wrong.

Going back to work now.

Warning - I'm not going to respond to this thread after this point - Mostly because PBE patches come as quickly as we can deliver them and thus it tends to work out better if I watch / test / iterate changes rather than keep explaining them.

Feel free to drop feedback - it will get read.

26

Comments

  • #28 shredthecarpet

    To fix the whole LaneMogs fiasco, I think they should just make warmogs like it used to be, you need to stack it to get max potential (increasing the max potential a small amount of course) allowing the enemy to have some say in how long or short it takes to get filled by zoning and whatnot. 

    Last edited by shredthecarpet: 2/16/2013 11:06:01 PM
  • #17 TehMunchster

    So the Shatter damage scaling is with armor now? I'm not reading this wrong? Well, assuming I read this correctly, AP Taric is a little screwed :c

  • #18 Gameguy301

    you keep the AP scling its both, theres a screenshot of it floating around somewhere.

  • #13 bichiotero

    Well i think Taric become pretty strong because of the flat armor shredding and the armor aura packed on his W. This helps your ad team and then counters enemys ad team too (and they are so strong right now, the full ad comps). Maybe Frozen Heart is the new way to go with him.

    But the changes on his passive are really nice.

  • #10 ThingODoom

    Ah good, more Tristana buffs.

  • #8 ohGr

    It's nice and all that Xeph tried to explain the Hecarim nerfs, but I still don't fucking understand the need. He claims it's to lower the potential to fall behind, but yet it's going to make his initial jungle clear harder than before with less W sustain early, as well as them hurting his single best damage item, Spirit of the Lizard Elder. Which is confusing in itself, as it was only ever really used on Hecarim, Vi and Xin Zhao.

  • #9 Gameguy301

    its confuseing because you read the changes backwards.

    the damage on his Q is going UP by 10 at all ranks, meanwhile the sustain from his W is 20% at all ranks now, changed from the 10-30% of old. the elder lizard nerf sucks, but its a worthy tradeoff imo. his early game now has TWICE as much sustain and 10 more damage per Q. he losses 10% at later ranks but you wont feel the effects of that until atleast lvl 12+.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 11:04:49 AM
  • #11 stuffedcheesybread

    Quote from Gameguy301 »

    its confuseing because you read the changes backwards.

    the damage on his Q is going UP by 10 at all ranks, meanwhile the sustain from his W is 20% at all ranks now, changed from the 10-30% of old. the elder lizard nerf sucks, but its a worthy tradeoff imo. his early game now has TWICE as much sustain and 10 more damage per Q. he losses 10% at later ranks but you wont feel the effects of that until atleast lvl 12+.

    His early game is just as weak. His w is capped on minions, so unless they raise that cap it does nothing for his early sustain

  • #15 Gameguy301

    well his Q does more damage and a faster clear is one way to reduce damage. also they are changeing the % healing wouldnt it make sense the cap changes too. we know that the cap against minions is 60/90/120/150/180 it would make perfect sense that a flattened heal % would likewise come with a flattened healing cap im sure some testing would easily confirm or deny.

    EDIT: your telling me your already hitting the healing cap? 10% of your damage at levels 1-9. no way your dealing 600 damage in 4 seconds, to hit the limit.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 8:36:03 PM
  • #16 stuffedcheesybread

    Well as of right now the healing cap is the same, so hopefully they will change it. The 20% heal from rank 1 w will only help with his ability to exchange in duels within the jungle and perhaps come out on top  early on( which he is notoriously bad at right now). Not a bad change, but again it doesn't help his clearing ability early

    Last edited by stuffedcheesybread: 2/16/2013 3:03:28 PM
  • #19 RoGLegend

    I'm not trying to be a asshole but did you even read the hecarim changes? Ok, his Q got a buff but guess what? The rest of his skills got nerfed. But then you say what about his sustain on his "w"? Yes, it looks like a early game buff but its not. They lowered the damage overall on his w, so in the end its weaker. Conclusion: HIS EARLY GAME AND LATE IS FAR WEAKER. And really, what the hell is up with these nerfs. They were not even needed at this point. He finally gets played at top level and riot goes and shits all over him.

     

  • #20 RoGLegend

    ^the above reply is @gameguy301

     

  • #22 Gameguy301

    W deals the same damage at level 1 and you max Q first, you wont notice until level 10+ the whole purpose of the change is to shove more power to his early game of course theirs going to be tradeoffs people call any negative a nerf no matter what positives come packaged with it.

    it would however be nice if they reduced or otherwise removed the damage penalty to minons, if their looking to increase clear strength thats certainly the way to do it.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 5:27:56 PM
  • #25 ohGr

    Yes, you max Q first, but that doesn't change how shitty his clear is going to be still. W is single point until lv10, which means you have 4s longer CD on it, with the healing caps remaining on minions. The only remote buff part is healing on early ganks, but it doesn't matter, because early game you don't need W to gank, you just charge in with E, smash them toward laner, and Q away. You would use W to get some healing in, but damage is so low you barely notice.

    W is a midgame and beyond skill, being only a free half potion when clearing, which you will now get less frequently. So, again, how is this going to make his game smoother? The Q dmg isn't any help, as small creeps never survived more than 2 Q's anyway, so you get a whole 24-36 more dmg on big creeps, while lowering your already shitty sustain early game. Yup, fair trade.

    Last edited by ohGr: 2/16/2013 8:13:49 PM
  • #26 Gameguy301

    W will be up and ready to go for the next camp by the time you finish the first one. you lose nothing. the cooldown is already long to the point you wont get to use it twice anyway so no loss there either. if for whatever reason you do clear faster than CD allows, you could just power through if your sustain is an issue waiting a second or 2 wont kill you.

    you are assumeing your already capping out at the current rate, I highly doubt your able to saturate the 60hp creep heal limit with the 10% current value thats 600 damage dealt in the 4 second window of your W at low levels that sounds like lunacy , double the % cuts the damage requirement down to 300.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 8:38:21 PM
  • #29 LunaSol

    Quote from Gameguy301 »

    you are assumeing your already capping out at the current rate, I highly doubt your able to saturate the 60hp creep heal limit with the 10% current value thats 600 damage dealt in the 4 second window of your W at low levels that sounds like lunacy , double the % cuts the damage requirement down to 300.

     

    I know this is a little late, but i have to say this.

    Since Hecarim's W is triggered by any damage done to enemies in the area, it actually ain't so hard to reach the cap. I do agree that it is an improvement on the early sustain, but only until about lvl 7, where your Q will deal over 600 dmg to minions/monsters in the area just on base damage. Calculations done on this with 3 minions since most camps have atleast 3 besides the golems.

    And the increased cooldown then makes it a nerf from there on out, since they didn't toy around with the mana cost of the leveling up, it will almost feel like you are punishing yourself in terms of mana, since you will most likely not have a lot of regen. And then it is hurting the skill alot in the late game with 10% less sustain in team fights. So all in all it is a slight buff until lvl 7 and then a nerf from there on out.

    Edit:

    Forgot the account for the small creeps dying

     

    Forgot to account for the W damage being 80 to all over 4 seconds. This means that on the third wolf camp spawn, a time where we should be lvl 5 we can cap our W at the moment through base damage.

    Q's base damage at the time (presuming you leveled it.) is 120, this is however only 79 to minions. So we start our engine with W right off the bat, we can manage around 2 Q's in the window thanks to the lessened cd on it from gaining a stack. so that is 158 in AoE. as well as 80 in AoE. so that is around 238 damage in AoE. The wolves on their third spawn can survive this and we therefore deal triple this amount to them in total. and that amount is roughly 715.

    We therefore hit the cap at around lvl 5 with atleast three targets. without counting AA's. So it is a buff until lvl 5 actually. where after we can assume it is a nerf and that is simply because of the cap staying at 20% and not growing. We could raise the minion cap, but it will cost us extra mana for around 30 health and 1 second cd. So all in all i think the W became a weaker skill in general after lvl 5.

    Last edited by LunaSol: 2/23/2013 8:06:01 AM
  • #6 Gameguy301

    Wait Xyph don't you have any comments to make about wriggles and how it is always more efficient to keep it at razor stage and not upgrade it? 
    This thread is purely about the current PBE changes and what it implies for this patch.

    was really hopeing they were going to talk about that one, wriggles had its AD lowered when AD was suppose to be getting cheaper as a statistic wrecking its gold efficiency in the season 3 launch.

    the increase of big creep HP has had a strange effect of nearly everyone buying madreds regardless of machete upgrade preferences (source LCS). lowering small creep hp should honestly be enouph for single target junglers to keep up, a buff to wriggles will fix its problems but madreds will still be the go to jungle item, unless your a rarity like hecarim whos compelled to finish a spirit stone into one of its upgrades.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 7:39:07 AM
  • #5 Gameguy301

    Vayne: 3.1% --> 4.5% ASPD / Level           25.2% attackspeed gained

    Tristana: 3.01% --> 4.5% ASPD / Level     26.82% attackspeed gained

    Ashe: 3.1% --> 4% ASPD / Level                16.2% attackspeed gained

    ashes attackpeed per level is listed as 3.34% on the wiki i have no clue whats up with that.

    note: attackspeed % applies only to base attackspeed, base  values below

    vayne0.658

    tristana0.658

    ashe: 0.658

    so thats all the same

    other considerations: while tristana gets the most attackspeed from this change vayne is the one who will benefit the most, on hit damage, an AD steroid ultimate, and higher AD per level makes her enjoy every bit of attackspeed more.

    minor considerations: ashes frost shot will cost marginaly more mana but also be harder to escape as the chance of a blink or dash having an arrow following you in mid air is higher.

     

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 2/16/2013 7:25:27 AM
  • #14 ControlBlue

    This is by far the most important change in this whole thing. ADC took a serious hit in the S3 transition, especially those that were focused on... carrying XD. This is the most elegant and non-disruptive way to buff them!

    PS: Any insight on if that change on BotRK will help it combat the Warmog meta?

    Last edited by ControlBlue: 2/16/2013 12:42:18 PM
  • #23 FleurDeLiz

    Quote from ControlBlue »



    PS: Any insight on if that change on BotRK will help it combat the Warmog meta?

    My thought is "if it still doesn't work, they're going to try to make it work". Given how much they're messing with it right now, Riot seems committed to making BotRK act as a bruiser-killing item.

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