Unofficial PBE Changes For 6/5 - Jungle Changes, Sona Info Soon, Miss Fortune's Double Up, Info on Irelia, Skarner, and Shyvana

 Unofficial PBE Changes for 6/5 - Jungle Changes

More small patches hit the server today. This time with three key changes. Don't forget the jungle spawn times have changed. If you forgot about this, you can read more about it in the first 3.8 PBE patch.

  • ancient golem: Now gives 340 (up from 275) base xp on death (220 live)

  • lizard: Now gives 340 (up from 275) base xp on death (220 live)

  • young lizard: Now gives 10 (down from 40) base xp on death

Sona Info on the Way

If you missed it, Sona has had a few changes on the PBE:
Sona base stats and W changeSona Passive and another W changed

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Yes they are, though I think with some reversions on older nerfs. I'll have Volty swing by.

 Information on Miss Fortune's Double Up

Reddit user yourfriendlane posted an informative post about Miss Fortune's Double Up ability. However Riot had a little more to add on the subject!

Originally Posted by Riot (View Reddit Source)

This is some very impressive detective work right there!

It just so happens I analyzed double up recently for work on a similar spell (which has since been scrapped; it was sort of a hybrid between double up and light binding and it was awful). You're very close with your cones. What we actually have are overlapping circles. Open this picture in a new tab and follow me on a magical ride through the logic of double up!

1 is the position of the enemy you clicked on. This is your primary target. At the time of impact (so NOT when you fire), the following happens:

  • 1) Draw a 500 unit radius circle around Target 1 (your primary target)
  • 2) All units within this circle and behind the target are marked as primary targets.
  • 3) Find a point 500 units left of Target 1. Call this point Target 2. Draw a 450 units radius circle around Target 2. Remove the primary target mark from all units in this circle who have it and instead give them thesecondary target mark.
  • 4) Find a point 500 units right of Target 1. This is Target 3. Do to Target 3 what you did to Target 2.
  • 5) Primary targets are now marked red, secondaries yellow.
  • 6) Pick one random primary target and fire the second shot at it.
  • 7) Did we fire a second shot? If so, cool, we're done. If not:
  • 8) Pick one random secondary target and fire the second shot at it.

So you were basically right. As for your questions:

  • 1) Targets are picked at impact time.
  • 2) Only the primary target and the secondary target take any damage. The bullet passes through everything in between harmlessly (like your auto attack does)

Any more questions?


Morello on Irelia

"Better Nerf Irelia", or not so much in this case!

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Ezreal can speak more to this, but Irelia was us (incorrectly) solving a problem of melee at the time.

In Season 1, we had a hard time making melee "work." Xin and Garen were our first two real cracks at it, but we wanted to try to get melee to be a strong character archetype in the game. The result was the "kitchen sink" approach we took with Irelia. The meme "better nerf Irelia" is actually based on some truth; in a lot of ways, her and Xin are the primordial ooze that future metagolem fighters are born of, and that design has fundamental problems.

The original idea was something like the Sword mage from Blade and Soul, but somehow, that got off the rails with this problem. I'd just started here not long before that, so it's probably better for Ezreal to explain his thought process first-hand here
Maybe, but Riot doesn't seem interested in doing something like that because they are so afraid of pissing people off. Funny thing though, by keeping her as she is, weak, they piss me off far more than actually making changes, but that is just my opinion. As long as they kept her as a mobile anti-carry then I would be fine with them changing something. Although anything that gets rid of her W would have to be a full remake and would essentially change how she plays because her kit is so focused around that skill.
There are two possible approaches for Irelia;

* Leave her alone
* Full, complete rework

She'd be almost unrecognizable about her in the second. I still want to do it, but it's not as high a priority as some others.
On a serious note, could you nerf irelia?
I mean, after lvl 9, there's nothing you can do to her, AND she synergizes TOO WELL with BoTRK.
Even though she hasn't seen play in tournaments she is too strong right now.
Btw Morello, where were you? Too busy with unrealeased champs?
Lots going on, and sucked into a couple of other games while trying to crawl up in Ranked. I phase in and out depending on life events/"HP"/etc
dodging the major question, her playstyle has nothing to do with fighting with floating blades, her ult isn't even the same blades, and seems tacked on in the end.
she fights up close and swings her floating blades.. just like she would if she had them in her hands, and like you said, her abilites are just a mish mash of things.
it seems that her character design, and her kit, are completely seperate, she could have looked like anything and still played the same, because Irelia wasn't a champion, she was an archetype, a mold.
well its good to at least finally know why she is so bankrupt as a champion, design wise.
I actually answered your question directly; her kit is not cohesive at all, and for the reasons I listed. I agree, if that wasn't clear
I can't believe this got a response....
But here we are again with you saying that you will never allow a champion to be in a good spot unless they get a rework. Either do it already so we can all move on or step down and let someone take over who is interested in fixing the problems with this game. You are essentially saying that you don't want people to play a particular champion. What you are doing is shady and you are grifting people out of their money. Leaving champions like this is not ok. Either fix her or....
You're right I should stop responding to your posts on this ;x

Then I'll say it for the last time; game development is about priorities. Some things are more important than others, and that determines what we can and can't work on in a given time. We only have a handful of champions not picked or banned in LCS at this point, so treating it like some critical issue (compared to something like Heimer, which is in way worse condition) is just some agenda where you think design fairies can just think up ideas and they get to happen instantly and unilaterally, or that it's a matter of effort/desire. I just don't know how to respond to that, because it's like me telling you the sky is green.
Not to call foul or anything, but if you guys know you made a mistake giving Irelia so many tools, how did Rengar make it through with arguably even more tools?
We're still not great at making Fighters. Some of it is because there's a big desire for new ones to compete with old ones. I need to be providing more specific oversight on this.
It occurs to me that at some point when you or other developers have time, it would be good to explain how you define "cohesive", similar to explanations of "toxic" and "antifun" in the past. I suggest this because many people seem to define "cohesive" as "I have everything I could ever possibly want in my kit" (this is not a good definition), when Riot defines it fairly differently. It might help stop some of the whining when changes are made. I mean it won't, but I can dream that it might.
Good idea. I'm working with heintzer to make some structure of a Riot design blog, which is a good avenue to provide some of these more philosophical ideas.
It seems pretty obvious that the second option is the option that would be best for the game, although you're right that she would be unrecognizable
Her design is very bad, which makes her not feel very unique and wasting her potential as a very exciting character. A true damage tank does not seem to fit her well, while being very hard to balance at the same time
I understand that it's not a high priority since there's some champions that need more attention than Irelia (eg. Sion, Heimerdinger, etc.), but I'm hoping that Irelia will be looked at some time in the future
She's just so much wasted potential and doesn't fit the image that both her model and lore portrays
Agreed - one of the most painful things, to me as a designer, is when I see opportunity cost on this level. It basically puts us in a bad spot because the cost of fixing it grows a ton as we now have to actively choose to piss people off to fix a real problem. Even this thread is full of Irelia fans!

Irelia is fun to play, Irelia has very little interaction, decision-making or counter-play.
If you agree that Irelia is in need of a full and complete rework to the point where afterwards she would be unrecognizable, how can Riot allow Irelia to be up for sale?
Because we change things all the time - that's part of playing League. If you purchase a champion, you're buying what it is now, we make no guarantees it'll be that way forever.
I never said Heimer wasn't more important or in worse shape. But, you have complained about Irelia for YEARS, this isn't exactly a new problem. Sorry if I offended you but I just see so many problems with this game being complained about and not being fixed. Plus the way in which you typically fix problems is INFURIATING, nerf into the ground now, maybe get around to fixing it a year or two later.
Because it's more a matter of opportunity cost and harm-vs-time. Irelia being like she is now isn't that big of a deal, overall - she's not "weak" (she's just not used all the time) and she's not so OP we can't do anything about it. She is a poorer design, though. It's the difference between optimization of the game, and fixing larger or more entrenched problems. Oddly, Irelia still hasn't hit the bar of "that bad" in comparison to other things.

Additionally, some of our worst characters from a design standpoint are our most popular. =/

Like I said, what you are doing is shady. You are grifting people out of their money by essentially saying that you will not allow a champion to be a good pick with their current kit.
You're really overstating this - we're not preventing her from being good, we're just not letting her be the best fighter in the game. I think we should be trying to not allow anyone to be the "best X class in the game."
Why do you think this happens? Do you think that players drift toward designs that minimize counterplay on their opponent's part, so they can focus on maximizing their potential instead of responding to their opponents?
Because being fun to play doesn't always mean "hard" and is usually not "has lots of counterplay." Counterplay is important for the game overall, but it contributes little to the fun of an individual champion
How is her kit not cohesive? Could you explain what abilities clash with another?
Cohesive to her theme, sorry.
pretty much like ur doing with eve and poppy being the best at what there niche offers?
Being the best at a strategic niche is good. That's very different than "the best mage" or "best fighter."

I'm OK with "best tank for single-target lockdown," or "best ADC for poke", for example.
AKA diana.
Seriously, why you had to design this character?.
On a more serious note, Now I understand why Morello "likes" to nerf irelia. It's because she has some problems, and IT IS hard to balance irelia because she has a little too much things on her kit. (Sustain, CC reduction, CC, true damage, good MS, and such).
He would actually LOVE to see irelia on competetive play, but if he buff her, she would be too strong (She is really strong right now). If he nerf her, then she would be either too weak, OR they would need to change her and give her power elsewhere.
Essentially, you're right here. I don't actually hate the character personally, but looking at it overall, it makes sense why she's the way she is, balance-wise.
So how do you decide who has priority? I mean, what makes a champion more ideal in this 'opportunity cost and harm vs time' system that you use? I'm just curious.
Honestly, I'm not sure how you guys decide, but it seems like if the champion is 'weak' or not plays a part judging by the fact that you point out Irelia isn't weak. I see this as a slight problem.
Do to the fact that new champions get compared to old champions of the same class (new fighters to old fighters, new APC to old APC, ect.) then it seems like a champion having 'poor design' should play a bigger part in if they need reworked. Even more so in a case like Irelia who is or was a poster child for the fighter class pretty much.
Just saying that IMO it would make more sense for a champion with a poor design to take priority. By fixing that design, by knowing how to fix it, then that means you can avoid creating that same problem, or one similar to it, when you design a new champion for that role.
To an extent, I agree with this. A big piece of this was devoting more to the effort (with the relaunches team).

One big challenge is how art pipelines effect production. If we wanted to rework Irelia, for example, I'd need all new VFX, animations, and sounds at least. These are the same guys doing that stuff for our other reworks, other relaunches, Ultimate skins, and the new champion (which we've slowed down so we could do more stuff like this). When we're trying to both fix things like poor design and triangle-feet Nidalee, there's a lot of complexity to the matrix of what can be done where.

Simply put, game development priorities and dependencies are really complex!

Riot is "Doing some Work" on Skarner

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

We're doing some work on Skarner, though it'll take a little bit of time. I'll update when we know more.

Noxus != Evil

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Noxus isn't "evil," but they're more willing to do things that others consider wrong or immoral to get results. In fact, Noxus is pretty ambivalent to the idea that things are good or evil, there's just what works and what doesn't.

This type of outlook will have others brand you as evil, as there are moral lines those people would value and get crossed. If Noxus is evil, they certainly don't see themselves as that way, though many other groups do.
Like Morello said. The conflict between Demacia and Noxus is more in the grey vs grey lines. Demacian philosophy is peace, justice, and honor; while Noxian values true strength and power. Noxus are willing to do a lot immoral things (like their atrocities in Ionia), but they aren't necessarily "evil" in some sense, just ruthless. A good example of the shade of grey of Noxus would be both Riven and Darius. Riven represent the idealistic and positive side of the Noxian philosophy of power and strength, but Singed atrocities against the Ionians and her own troops cause her to abandon Noxus and question herself on the power of strength and showing strength without bringing suffering to others. Likewise, Darius isn't exactly an "evil" person. He only back Swain because he wants to stomp out the corrupt aristocracy and bureaucracy that is tarnishing the name of Noxus.
Also, note that Demacia isn't much different than Noxus. Like Noxus, they have a strict military conscription and they fall into the "knight templar" category. In other words, their view on peace, justice, and honor is "absolute" and they believe their moral philosophy is best for everyone. Case in point, their actions in Kalamanda demonstrate some of Demacian's "knight templar" side because they believe to be "morally superior" than Noxus.
I believe League of Legends lore is the best example of handling the idea of "shades of grey" side of things when it comes down video games. The conflict between Demacia and Noxus is the best example. Heck, I think Riot handle the idea of "grey" morality much better than say, ArenaNet on Guild Wars 2.
Demacia also has some grey that, admittedly is tough to see currently. What kind of society evolves out of a nation that values law and order as the highest values? While they easily read as the "good guys," it's not unilaterally true.

 Scarizard on Shyvana

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Definitely still on my list - as i said (others have quoted my post in the 3.8 PBE Context Thread), we decided not to put it on live for 3.8, as pretty much all of the other changes buff shyvana in some way (Wits End stealing MR, Jungle respawn rates+, Wriggles buffs).

So Shyvana won't receive changes just because other things might make her better? Not a chance. We really like the direction all of the shyvana changes have taken - the reasoning is solid and it's working well in playtests. The real issue here is numbers tuning, and how hard it's proven to find where balance lies with all of the other changes thrown in. I'm a huge shyvana fan - i really enjoy running fast, punching things, and of course being a dragon -but instead of tossing everything in the pot together and letting Shy players run wild, holding it back seems much wiser.

After all, what i'd really like to avoid is over-buffing with Shy changes + Jungle changes, then having to tone down her power right after giving her a tune-up. Logged some iteration today and i have to say it's shaping up nicely.
So what are these changes?
What about that 10 fury per hit thing? Was that a fluke?
10 Fury per hit was definitely a value error. Shyvana gaining extra fury (based on rank of Dragon's Descent) however is one of the directions we've been testing, with pretty good results.



  • #23 Captain_Sigh

    Am I the only one who doesnt like the way the jungle is going?

    I feel the timer changes are really needed, but why remove the xp from the little lizards? As it is junglers lose out on a camp, and sure the buff to the bigger monster helps with that, but doesnt even come close to covering it, seeing as blue/red will now only give 60xp extra.

    Not to mention if you get invaded last second you are put even further behind and in solo q asking for a decent defense is like asking for a winning lottery ticket! Over the course of a full game the quicker spawn timers may help alleviate this issue, but junglers seem to always fall a little behind unless they take some lane xp anyway. Especially when giving a buff away to a laner, or if a lane is behind and needs some babysitting.

    What do other pople think?

  • #24 Brutalbruno

    On live right now you only get 220 Xp from ancient golem. They have increased the XP gains to 340 to accomadate for the jungle change respectively. The XP from killing Red or Blue at level one will still level you to 2. Its a fair change and will balance out lanes since they cant wraiths/wolves/golems anymore to get the advantage while still keeping the jungler going.

    A tactic that is rarely seen anymore is counterjungling. It is a good strat that was seen a lot in S2 but has died with the jungle buffs and sub-par wriggles. With patch 3.8 I guarentee counterjungling will be back and its something you will have to watch out for. You should be worried about counterjungling. Its rare that i ever get behind while jungling and i almost never need lane XP. You definitely wont get behind with the wriggles changes, especially with the old junglers resurfacing like Shyv and Mundo. You might even see a couple champs come to light.

  • #28 Captain_Sigh

    yeah but the buff to xp doesnt accomadate for the lizards losing 30xp each, which means it doesnt accomodate for it fully. But you are right, you will still level, which I guess is what counts.

    As for counter jungling, I dont mind it, but defending requires team work which is very hard to get going in solo-mid.
    I would also love Shyv and Mundo to be more popular, but guess we shall see.

    Last edited by Captain_Sigh: 6/6/2013 2:19:14 PM
  • #29 CaterpillarCake

    um even right now on live you will hit level 2 without wolves and just blue/red.
    the thing was that wolves + blue + red = level 3 = powerful gank.
    idk if just red and blue will let you hit level 3 now because i dont feel like doing maths.

  • #30 Brutalbruno

    it all depends on elo for teamwork, the higher elo the more teamwork. Since im gold theres generally a decent amount of teamwork. I definitely cannot wait for some shyvana tho. I only want to play mundo because i have the sex slave skin and its funny to run around with him.

  • #31 Captain_Sigh

    CaterpillarCake, that was my thought in all honesty. Rigtht now I love hitting mid at level 3 while they are still 2.

    I am in silver 1 (have been forever, cant seem to get higher) teamwork is great in maybe 60% of the games.

  • #33 deviks

    It does, actually. In each buff camp, there are two small lizards and one big monster. The big monster currently gives 220xp on live, and the small lizards give 40 each, for a total of 300xp. The big monsters alone will give more xp than that with this change, so the 20 extra xp from the two lizards is just gravy. This also allows for your laners to "accidentally" steal the small lizards without causing any sort of issue for the jungler.

  • #34 Brutalbruno

    mid always steals the little guys

  • #35 Captain_Sigh

    @deviks, yes the camp gives more than it used to, but the point was that the increase does not accomodate for the lack of xp from wolves. Which was something in the region of 150-170 I believe.
    Originally it seemed that the camp would almost completely compensate for the lack of wolves but by removing xp from the little ones the camp only gives 60 more than it does on live, which covers about half of what a large wolf gives. I guess with the lower respawn time on wolves this will work out, but still irritating early game imo.

  • #20 kalle2934

    Am I the only one who thinks that irelia is a really cool champion? I would be really sad if they reworked her to the extent that she would be totally unrecognizable, because that means getting rid of her current kit, which according to me is fun and cohesive. If people want a champion that would interact more with "flying blades" or something similar (like a ranged champ or AD caster), then I suggest that Riot makes a new champ with those features instead of practically remove a champ that many players, including me, are very fond of.

    don't rework Irelia! :(

  • #22 NorthWind

    When Irelia was announced, I had something very different in my mind. When i saw what she was, I still liked her, but she was not what i wanted. I expected a fluid warrior with spirit blades etc, and Irelia is basically a tank with a good gap closer and a lot of true damage.

    I say rework her. 

  • #19 DrTGGS

    As someone who plays Irelia mainly from 3 years, i have to say i am always ready to embrace change in the name of balance, but i want the fun when playing her to remain.

    Also, i am sure all Irelia mains would agree, her true damage and bladesurge are her main traits. Yes, she has sustain and anti CC passive and etc.. but i am fine with them removing her CC reduction for a different passive, removing her built-in sustain and even by some extend nerfing her crowd control in needed, but they should keep her true damage and bladesurge. Those 2 abilities have great synergy, and her Q by itself is a beast ability for farming, gap closing, and applying her true damage thanks to the on-hit effect.


    Overall, if there is ever a rework, her Q and W should stay the same, with the sustain ripped out of the W.

    Last edited by DrTGGS: 6/6/2013 4:54:43 AM
  • #25 Nakhan

    I disagree.  Her main traits are her bladesurge and her transcendent blades (ult).  I've never played her, but the fact that she has true damage is such a small part of Irelia.  If it were gone (obviously replaced by physical/magical damage that, when mitigated by armor/mr, is the same damage value), she'd be the same.

  • #26 Sweolk

    so, you are going to argue with a guy who mains her, and you haven't played her? This is amusing. 

    I'll let you in on a secret, her main traits was bladesurge and ulti, then they nerfed bladesurge from 3 sec to 6 sec and nerfing her ulti from 50% health from champions and 25% from minions to 25% / 10% you can't even barely sustain anything from it . So the irelia players have been forced to rely on her W much more than before when going tanky/Ad was viable on her.

    Now you are arguing with two irelia mains btw. tho i have only played her for 2 years.

    Last edited by Sweolk: 6/6/2013 2:12:06 PM
  • #36 Nakhan

    If I were arguing with the entirety of everyone who plays league of legends, my stance would remain unchanged.  Further, it would enhance our discussion.

    Regardless, you're thinking about it the wrong way.  True damage, magic damage, physical damage; it is all the same thing - just numbers.  When Irelia fights, she does certain things.  She dashes toward you (bladesurge), attacks you, stuns you (or slows), and then keeps dashing and attacking.  At some point, she gets sufficiently pissed, and decides to ult you (transcendent blades) which throws magical blades in straight lines around the battlefield.  This is the core of Irelia.

    The fact that Irelia does true damage is basically an afterthought.  Take Vayne, for example, who probably is the most likely champ for anyone to say 'Vayne's core identity involves true damage'.  It isn't.  One of Vayne's core traits are that when she attacks the same target three times, she hits extra hard.  True damage is only there as a balancing factor; a way to make itemizing different for both her and her enemies.  The same thing goes for Irelia - she would be the same thing without the true damage, assuming she were balanced properly.

    Don't think about how to utilize her current kit.  Think about what makes Irelia act and feel the way she does.

  • #37 Sweolk

    So if we had it your way, we would remove True dmg and replace with either physical or magic? The True dmg isn't one of the biggest of her abilities to win a lane, but she would definitely need a buff if you are going to remove the thing that makes her able to trade with riven, olaf etc.

    "Don't think about how to utilize her current kit. Think about what makes Irelia act and feel the way she does" So i need to Feel like a girl with fancy cloths along with her story? What are you talking about? You dont need to feel like the champion does to understand her for god's sake. What is your solution when you play her, you ignore her skills and make up those that fits to her feel? Ooh wait, i forgot, you haven't played her. Please don't go all mushy-mushy as if they champions have feelings on me now. 

  • #38 Nakhan

    Quote from Sweolk »

    So if we had it your way, we would remove True dmg and replace with either physical or magic? The True dmg isn't one of the biggest of her abilities to win a lane, but she would definitely need a buff if you are going to remove the thing that makes her able to trade with riven, olaf etc.

    If I had my way, we'd update a bunch of older champions, but that won't happen anytime soon.  Regarding Irelia, when you're remaking a champion you aren't removing certain traits and adding new ones, you're starting from scratch and picking traits that you cannot do without, or you'd lose the champion's identity.  You can't do without Irelia's dash, or she wouldn't feel the same.  If she dealt a different type of damage, few would notice a difference (outside of itemization).

    As far as buffing her, that comes after you obtain the necessary traits and have a working champion.  Also, if you read my comment, I stated she would have to be balanced if her true damage were replaced with another type of damage.

    Quote from Sweolk »

    "Don't think about how to utilize her current kit. Think about what makes Irelia act and feel the way she does" So i need to Feel like a girl with fancy cloths along with her story? What are you talking about? You dont need to feel like the champion does to understand her for god's sake. What is your solution when you play her, you ignore her skills and make up those that fits to her feel? Ooh wait, i forgot, you haven't played her. Please don't go all mushy-mushy as if they champions have feelings on me now. 

    First, what are you smoking?  Second, you failed to grasp the point.  Reread my comment, mull it around in your head, then reply with something that makes sense.

    I hope your comments are straightforward responses, and not an attempt to troll and/or bore me.

  • #39 Sweolk

    I dont smoke, smoking is for morons. What you are saying is that when i am playing, i don't need to think how to play her, as long as i feel how she should be played/feel like her? It makes zero sense, and in my book, getting a feel for something < understanding it. 

    You are talking to me who have PLAYED HER, i got a FEEL for her the first times I PLAYED HER, then after a while i UNDERSTOOD. If you are going to make a statement about a champ, that you havent even played to begin with, then you will have to elaborate and have some serious motivation behind, otherwise it will just look like mish-mush.

    If i still missed the point, you are welcome to pointing it out.

  • #40 Nakhan

    Imagine she had no numbers, no health bars, no stats - just what she looked like and how she acted.  When you watched her, what does she do?  To me, I see a woman who rushes from enemy to enemy, hits people near her, and then throws magical blades in long straight lines.  That is how she looks, acts, and, as you're so hooked upon, feels.  It is her identity.

  • #41 squee147

    I hear what you saying Nakhan, though I'm not sure I agree.  In my mind the essences of what Irelia is is a slippery psychic/telekinetic assassin or anti-carry.  I think many of her abilities show this well, but it is best shown by transcendent blades, her passive, and hiten style.  While I feel it is essential for her as a character to have some kind of gap closer, in my mind it in no way needs to resemble bladesurge.  

    For anyone who hasn't seen, here is an early iteration of her.  I have no idea why they went away from this.  I fell in love with this character design and to some degree this is still how I picture Irelia. Her small floating knives ala transcendent blades have always made more of an impression then the big one she whacks people with.


     irelia original art

    Last edited by squee147: 6/9/2013 6:26:31 PM
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