Unofficial PBE Changes for 6/5 - Jungle Changes
More small patches hit the server today. This time with three key changes. Don't forget the jungle spawn times have changed. If you forgot about this, you can read more about it in the first 3.8 PBE patch.
ancient golem: Now gives 340 (up from 275) base xp on death (220 live)
lizard: Now gives 340 (up from 275) base xp on death (220 live)
young lizard: Now gives 10 (down from 40) base xp on death
Sona Info on the Way
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Yes they are, though I think with some reversions on older nerfs. I'll have Volty swing by.
Information on Miss Fortune's Double Up
Reddit user yourfriendlane posted an informative post about Miss Fortune's Double Up ability. However Riot had a little more to add on the subject!
Originally Posted by Riot (View Reddit Source)
Morello on Irelia
"Better Nerf Irelia", or not so much in this case!
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Ezreal can speak more to this, but Irelia was us (incorrectly) solving a problem of melee at the time.
In Season 1, we had a hard time making melee "work." Xin and Garen were our first two real cracks at it, but we wanted to try to get melee to be a strong character archetype in the game. The result was the "kitchen sink" approach we took with Irelia. The meme "better nerf Irelia" is actually based on some truth; in a lot of ways, her and Xin are the primordial ooze that future metagolem fighters are born of, and that design has fundamental problems.
The original idea was something like the Sword mage from Blade and Soul, but somehow, that got off the rails with this problem. I'd just started here not long before that, so it's probably better for Ezreal to explain his thought process first-hand hereMaybe, but Riot doesn't seem interested in doing something like that because they are so afraid of pissing people off. Funny thing though, by keeping her as she is, weak, they piss me off far more than actually making changes, but that is just my opinion. As long as they kept her as a mobile anti-carry then I would be fine with them changing something. Although anything that gets rid of her W would have to be a full remake and would essentially change how she plays because her kit is so focused around that skill.There are two possible approaches for Irelia;
* Leave her alone
* Full, complete rework
She'd be almost unrecognizable about her in the second. I still want to do it, but it's not as high a priority as some others.On a serious note, could you nerf irelia?Lots going on, and sucked into a couple of other games while trying to crawl up in Ranked. I phase in and out depending on life events/"HP"/etc
I mean, after lvl 9, there's nothing you can do to her, AND she synergizes TOO WELL with BoTRK.
Even though she hasn't seen play in tournaments she is too strong right now.
Btw Morello, where were you? Too busy with unrealeased champs?dodging the major question, her playstyle has nothing to do with fighting with floating blades, her ult isn't even the same blades, and seems tacked on in the end.I actually answered your question directly; her kit is not cohesive at all, and for the reasons I listed. I agree, if that wasn't clear
she fights up close and swings her floating blades.. just like she would if she had them in her hands, and like you said, her abilites are just a mish mash of things.
it seems that her character design, and her kit, are completely seperate, she could have looked like anything and still played the same, because Irelia wasn't a champion, she was an archetype, a mold.
well its good to at least finally know why she is so bankrupt as a champion, design wise.I can't believe this got a response....You're right I should stop responding to your posts on this ;x
But here we are again with you saying that you will never allow a champion to be in a good spot unless they get a rework. Either do it already so we can all move on or step down and let someone take over who is interested in fixing the problems with this game. You are essentially saying that you don't want people to play a particular champion. What you are doing is shady and you are grifting people out of their money. Leaving champions like this is not ok. Either fix her or....
Then I'll say it for the last time; game development is about priorities. Some things are more important than others, and that determines what we can and can't work on in a given time. We only have a handful of champions not picked or banned in LCS at this point, so treating it like some critical issue (compared to something like Heimer, which is in way worse condition) is just some agenda where you think design fairies can just think up ideas and they get to happen instantly and unilaterally, or that it's a matter of effort/desire. I just don't know how to respond to that, because it's like me telling you the sky is green.Not to call foul or anything, but if you guys know you made a mistake giving Irelia so many tools, how did Rengar make it through with arguably even more tools?We're still not great at making Fighters. Some of it is because there's a big desire for new ones to compete with old ones. I need to be providing more specific oversight on this.It occurs to me that at some point when you or other developers have time, it would be good to explain how you define "cohesive", similar to explanations of "toxic" and "antifun" in the past. I suggest this because many people seem to define "cohesive" as "I have everything I could ever possibly want in my kit" (this is not a good definition), when Riot defines it fairly differently. It might help stop some of the whining when changes are made. I mean it won't, but I can dream that it might.Good idea. I'm working with heintzer to make some structure of a Riot design blog, which is a good avenue to provide some of these more philosophical ideas.It seems pretty obvious that the second option is the option that would be best for the game, although you're right that she would be unrecognizableAgreed - one of the most painful things, to me as a designer, is when I see opportunity cost on this level. It basically puts us in a bad spot because the cost of fixing it grows a ton as we now have to actively choose to piss people off to fix a real problem. Even this thread is full of Irelia fans!
Her design is very bad, which makes her not feel very unique and wasting her potential as a very exciting character. A true damage tank does not seem to fit her well, while being very hard to balance at the same time
I understand that it's not a high priority since there's some champions that need more attention than Irelia (eg. Sion, Heimerdinger, etc.), but I'm hoping that Irelia will be looked at some time in the future
She's just so much wasted potential and doesn't fit the image that both her model and lore portrays
Irelia is fun to play, Irelia has very little interaction, decision-making or counter-play.@MorelloBecause we change things all the time - that's part of playing League. If you purchase a champion, you're buying what it is now, we make no guarantees it'll be that way forever.
If you agree that Irelia is in need of a full and complete rework to the point where afterwards she would be unrecognizable, how can Riot allow Irelia to be up for sale?I never said Heimer wasn't more important or in worse shape. But, you have complained about Irelia for YEARS, this isn't exactly a new problem. Sorry if I offended you but I just see so many problems with this game being complained about and not being fixed. Plus the way in which you typically fix problems is INFURIATING, nerf into the ground now, maybe get around to fixing it a year or two later.Because it's more a matter of opportunity cost and harm-vs-time. Irelia being like she is now isn't that big of a deal, overall - she's not "weak" (she's just not used all the time) and she's not so OP we can't do anything about it. She is a poorer design, though. It's the difference between optimization of the game, and fixing larger or more entrenched problems. Oddly, Irelia still hasn't hit the bar of "that bad" in comparison to other things.
Additionally, some of our worst characters from a design standpoint are our most popular. =/ThisYou're really overstating this - we're not preventing her from being good, we're just not letting her be the best fighter in the game. I think we should be trying to not allow anyone to be the "best X class in the game."
Like I said, what you are doing is shady. You are grifting people out of their money by essentially saying that you will not allow a champion to be a good pick with their current kit.Why do you think this happens? Do you think that players drift toward designs that minimize counterplay on their opponent's part, so they can focus on maximizing their potential instead of responding to their opponents?Because being fun to play doesn't always mean "hard" and is usually not "has lots of counterplay." Counterplay is important for the game overall, but it contributes little to the fun of an individual championHow is her kit not cohesive? Could you explain what abilities clash with another?Cohesive to her theme, sorry.pretty much like ur doing with eve and poppy being the best at what there niche offers?Being the best at a strategic niche is good. That's very different than "the best mage" or "best fighter."
I'm OK with "best tank for single-target lockdown," or "best ADC for poke", for example.AKA diana.Essentially, you're right here. I don't actually hate the character personally, but looking at it overall, it makes sense why she's the way she is, balance-wise.
Seriously, why you had to design this character?.
On a more serious note, Now I understand why Morello "likes" to nerf irelia. It's because she has some problems, and IT IS hard to balance irelia because she has a little too much things on her kit. (Sustain, CC reduction, CC, true damage, good MS, and such).
He would actually LOVE to see irelia on competetive play, but if he buff her, she would be too strong (She is really strong right now). If he nerf her, then she would be either too weak, OR they would need to change her and give her power elsewhere.So how do you decide who has priority? I mean, what makes a champion more ideal in this 'opportunity cost and harm vs time' system that you use? I'm just curious.To an extent, I agree with this. A big piece of this was devoting more to the effort (with the relaunches team).
Honestly, I'm not sure how you guys decide, but it seems like if the champion is 'weak' or not plays a part judging by the fact that you point out Irelia isn't weak. I see this as a slight problem.
Do to the fact that new champions get compared to old champions of the same class (new fighters to old fighters, new APC to old APC, ect.) then it seems like a champion having 'poor design' should play a bigger part in if they need reworked. Even more so in a case like Irelia who is or was a poster child for the fighter class pretty much.
Just saying that IMO it would make more sense for a champion with a poor design to take priority. By fixing that design, by knowing how to fix it, then that means you can avoid creating that same problem, or one similar to it, when you design a new champion for that role.
One big challenge is how art pipelines effect production. If we wanted to rework Irelia, for example, I'd need all new VFX, animations, and sounds at least. These are the same guys doing that stuff for our other reworks, other relaunches, Ultimate skins, and the new champion (which we've slowed down so we could do more stuff like this). When we're trying to both fix things like poor design and triangle-feet Nidalee, there's a lot of complexity to the matrix of what can be done where.
Simply put, game development priorities and dependencies are really complex!
Riot is "Doing some Work" on Skarner
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)We're doing some work on Skarner, though it'll take a little bit of time. I'll update when we know more.
Noxus != Evil
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Noxus isn't "evil," but they're more willing to do things that others consider wrong or immoral to get results. In fact, Noxus is pretty ambivalent to the idea that things are good or evil, there's just what works and what doesn't.
This type of outlook will have others brand you as evil, as there are moral lines those people would value and get crossed. If Noxus is evil, they certainly don't see themselves as that way, though many other groups do.Like Morello said. The conflict between Demacia and Noxus is more in the grey vs grey lines. Demacian philosophy is peace, justice, and honor; while Noxian values true strength and power. Noxus are willing to do a lot immoral things (like their atrocities in Ionia), but they aren't necessarily "evil" in some sense, just ruthless. A good example of the shade of grey of Noxus would be both Riven and Darius. Riven represent the idealistic and positive side of the Noxian philosophy of power and strength, but Singed atrocities against the Ionians and her own troops cause her to abandon Noxus and question herself on the power of strength and showing strength without bringing suffering to others. Likewise, Darius isn't exactly an "evil" person. He only back Swain because he wants to stomp out the corrupt aristocracy and bureaucracy that is tarnishing the name of Noxus.Demacia also has some grey that, admittedly is tough to see currently. What kind of society evolves out of a nation that values law and order as the highest values? While they easily read as the "good guys," it's not unilaterally true.
Also, note that Demacia isn't much different than Noxus. Like Noxus, they have a strict military conscription and they fall into the "knight templar" category. In other words, their view on peace, justice, and honor is "absolute" and they believe their moral philosophy is best for everyone. Case in point, their actions in Kalamanda demonstrate some of Demacian's "knight templar" side because they believe to be "morally superior" than Noxus.
I believe League of Legends lore is the best example of handling the idea of "shades of grey" side of things when it comes down video games. The conflict between Demacia and Noxus is the best example. Heck, I think Riot handle the idea of "grey" morality much better than say, ArenaNet on Guild Wars 2.
Scarizard on Shyvana
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Definitely still on my list - as i said (others have quoted my post in the 3.8 PBE Context Thread), we decided not to put it on live for 3.8, as pretty much all of the other changes buff shyvana in some way (Wits End stealing MR, Jungle respawn rates+, Wriggles buffs).
So Shyvana won't receive changes just because other things might make her better? Not a chance. We really like the direction all of the shyvana changes have taken - the reasoning is solid and it's working well in playtests. The real issue here is numbers tuning, and how hard it's proven to find where balance lies with all of the other changes thrown in. I'm a huge shyvana fan - i really enjoy running fast, punching things, and of course being a dragon -but instead of tossing everything in the pot together and letting Shy players run wild, holding it back seems much wiser.
After all, what i'd really like to avoid is over-buffing with Shy changes + Jungle changes, then having to tone down her power right after giving her a tune-up. Logged some iteration today and i have to say it's shaping up nicely.So what are these changes?10 Fury per hit was definitely a value error. Shyvana gaining extra fury (based on rank of Dragon's Descent) however is one of the directions we've been testing, with pretty good results.
What about that 10 fury per hit thing? Was that a fluke?