Next Champions Skin has at Least 4 Eyes and has an "AoE skill that explodes in a pattern we have not seen", Reworked Yorick kits

Next Champion's Release Skin has at Least 4 Eyes and has a "AoE skill that explodes in a pattern we have not seen"

This is a Google translation of the German Forums.
Riot is once again teasing about the next champion. If you missed the previous post about the new champion you can find them here: [one] [two] [three]

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

At least.
Sorry. I lied, only 4 in the skin.


My Champion has an AoE skill that explodes in a pattern that we had not yet (ie no circle, rectangle, cone, etc.). What a pattern could that be?

Xelnath on Yorick - Either way, his no-brain playstyle clearly must go, Talk on Heimerdinger's Delay, Two Reworked Yorick kits

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

This is unprecedentedly good feedback. ZenonTheStoic is helping me gather feedback on the EU German forums as well.

So my general take aways so far:
  • The general fantasy Yorick players have is very consistent and unsatisfied.
  • Yorick is much more offensive to players than I had imagined.
  • Yorick players come in two major categories.
  • - Pick Yorick for his Theme (Necromancer)
  • - Pick Yorick for his Raw Power (Broken sustain/poke)

This guy will probably be a much more severe rework than Xerath. However, it seems clear what direction he must go:

1) Yorick must feel like he controls an "Army of the Damned" - multiple minions, not one powerful one
2) Yorick must feel like he can make skillful plays, using his ghouls.
3) Yorick opponents must feel like they can outplay his moves.

Some Yorick players show that they appreciate how powerful and uncounterable Yorick is. However, this is not healthy for league, as I think most players will agree. The surprise to me is that these Yorick players feel that he prevents other, worse, champion playstyles from becoming dominant in top lane.

If this is true, it means we may need to simultaneously investigate those issues, if Yorick is the last bastion counter champ.... I will confer with higher skilled players to see if this is consistently true.

Either way, his "no-brain" playstyle clearly must go.
will he more of a problem reworking compared to poppy and sion ? He has a lot of potential for the creativity(as a necromancer) i see, reworking him long but probably rewarding.
Sion has a conflict of mechanics and fantasy. Yorick seems to have no real mechanics that players latch onto - only power. Perhaps a few nuances with the ultimate or the ability to position minions.

However, the fantasy space of a spirit/ghoul conjurer who also fights is a rich one.
I would like him to stay a pusher and a lane bully though to be honest.
Pusher, sure. If by lane bully, you mean someone who can zone someone infinitely with massive sustain and damage... then no, that part needs to die in the fires of Dar'kinoor.
I would like him to stay a pusher and a lane bully though to be honest.
Pusher, sure. If by lane bully, you mean someone who can zone someone infinitely with massive sustain and damage... then no, that part needs to die in the fires of Dar'kinoor.
Xelnath, if I may ask, what made you decide to work on Yorick? Was it directed to you based on a list of champs that the dev team feels needs work or did you have a personal drive to make him healthy for the game?
I ask mostly because I can't seem to figure out why some champs see attention over others. I wonder if I'm not seeing the big picture.
Singed and Jayce are being handled by other people in different ways.

Teemo... *shudder*.

Jayce, Singed and Teemo all bring cool, unique experiences to league in the form of tactical shrooms, gateways with dodgable balls of explosiveness and poison trail.

Yorick brings none of that. Maybe he clones a fed ADC once in 20 games.

Yorick is toxic in lane, detrimental to his team in the midgame and outright useless unless absurdly fed. So yes, its a mix of personal passion along with the confirmation granted by the feedback in these past two threads that has solidified my belief that Yorick needs to be reworked.
Second most toxic actually. The most toxic kind of experience is playing a champion that is terrible earlygame, midgame and only good when the stars align and hell becomes frosty. Champions such as Pre remake nerfed Eve/Xin and current Veigar/Mordekaiser/Heimerdinger all fall into this category. People want to play these champions because they have an attachment to them, they know they suck, they know they could play something else filling the same role but they won't. Yorick has something going for him, even if endgame he becomes demoted to "Support" (due to his ultimate), at least he contributes to a team positively when played well. This is one of the reasons he is actually played as a support in tournaments sometimes.

Anyways if Yorick were to be readjusted, it'd be nice if his Ghouls acted more like Elises Spiderlings and only attacked the things near him or the things he was attacking or if there was some actual reward for killing the ghouls like spiderlings. The current situation is, damned if you do, damned if you don't because the ghouls are disposable, too disposable. There is no point in killing them, they are too fast to avoid and they die on their own within the time it takes you to kill them.

So I have Two Ideas I'd like to share with you.
  1. Twin Shadows Method - Make the ghosts immune to all damage and die after they have preformed one attack. Keeps him unique and takes away his endgame weakness (ghouls dying to AoE instantly). This makes them less of a disposable pet and more of a two part spell that looks like a pet.
  2. The Orianna Method - Killing units with his auto attacks (The shovel) plays a digging animation that grants him a ghoul which follows him around like spiderlings and are controlled with his spells similar to Orianna's Ball. This "digging" passive has an internal cooldown so killing his ghouls ends up having meaning, and Yorick actually wants to keep his ghouls alive instead of spamming them at you. Proper Risk/Reward.

TLDR - The problem as I see it in regards to Yorick, some champions can't get near him because they can't kill the ghouls. Other champions flat out ignore him because they can kill the ghouls extremely easily which is also the problem Yorick has endgame. Ghouls need a total rework.

Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
Xelnath can you take a damn cattle prod to the team that is working on Heimerdinger PLEASE!!!!
its great that you are moving from champion to champion getting information and everything and everyone loves you for it.
but the team that is working on heimerdinger needs to get there sh!t together so smack them around a bit.
Actually, Heimerdinger is making progress. However, my sudden insertion of Xerath into the playtesting schedule pushed Heimerdinger back severely. (You can't playtest two AP mid characters effectively in the same game without warping feedback.)

Morello actually asked me if I would like to pickup the task of finishing off Heimerdinger now that Xerath is getting into a good state. I actually said no, because I'm fried mentally on the AP character space right now and the "cleanup/pruning" stages of development are the ones I find most stressful. (I'll post more about this in the Xerath thread).

So, feel free to blame me for Heimerdinger being pushed back. That said, they've actually done a great job of remaking him to feel way more satisfying and he's on his way.

That said, I won't be commenting on Heimerdinger again in this thread. Let's focus our attention on discussing Yorick.

Whew... Finally caught up with this thread.

A lot of good thoughts here.

Things filtering to the top:

* Yorick should still be in the front line
* Ghouls are what Yorick is about.
* Ghouls should last longer
* Ghouls should be meaningful to Yorick
* Ghouls should give *some* gold (maybe 5 like Zyra plants?) if you last hit them


* Yorick's free, ranged sustain is highly frustrating and doesn't require himself to be at risk (Compare with Nasus)
* Yorick's snares and lockdown kit (W -> Q) means once you do close, the enemy has no chance to escape in an even match
* Yorick's ultimate is too dependant on allies and feels out of theme with Yorick.
* Yorick's kit doesn't give Yorick players an opportunity to be skillful.

Going to cook up a couple ideas based on the stuff I've seen here. (Keep in mind, no work on this will begin for quite some time - I'm trying to establish a baseline understanding of player expectations and gameplay hypothesis I want to solve.)

Thanks guys
Great thats exactly what it is but it will be extremely hard to balance. Just keep in mind, currently his early game is strong and late game is kind of weak. So you're going to want to balance it out according to that.
Thanks, sir. BTW, I appreciate the bananas.

I've thrown together two "kit" ideas based on the concepts posed earlier for discussion of the ideas behind them. Keep in mind, these are only tooltips... and tooltips are much easier to write than abilities are to build.

Which of these better fits the kind of character Yorick should be? Please explain why you like or hate it.

Kit 1)

Ghouls buff Yorick. Yorick can give these buffs to an Ally.

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Kit 2)

Ghouls interplay with each other. Yorick's ultimate is a powerful army command tool.

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(Q - Ranged Nuke)
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(E - Skillshot)
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Kit 2 looks a LOT more interesting than Kit 1. The idea of an army of minions is the main point of Yorick, and it does that much better. AND it manages to make a micro-management kit work within League. Nice.
Just to let you know there is a tyop in Kit 2's W: the ability is called Explosive Harvest in the name and Pestilent Harvest in the tooltip.
Good catch. Thankfully, these are *only* tooltips. P.S. I intentionally made some numbers absurd, so if someone goes "well 300,000 damage is absurd", its clear they are reacting sheerly to balance numbers instead of how the character plays.

*wrings his bug claws in an evil mastermind like way*

Seriously though, this thread has given me such a larger idea space than I had before I started reading it. Keep these great discussions coming. I'm off to MLG to hang with a friend or two, but I'll try to check this thread on my phone.
I'm a bit confused how many ghouls he's allowed at a given time. Does he control the ghouls?
Imagine that he has 3 permanent pets. If one dies, it takes him 30 seconds to exhume a replacement. (I really like EX words. EXHUME. EXHAUST. EXHIBIT. EXPELLIARMUS)
i like the first kit where the ghouls defend the targeted player
It would really help if you explain why you like a particular kit or theme.
Although I find both kits awesome I think I prefer Kit #2.
However, no matter how sexy ultimate #2 seems, it actually has a lot of conflicting issues with the rest of his kit. It requires a channel making it vulnerable to being stunned. This doesn't work so well considering he's still seems to be intended as a melee tanky bruiser. You'll want to be hitting things, not becoming a sitting duck or being forced to channel from a range, making it awkward to use.
If the channel is too long, his ult might end up being one of those moves you desperately look for opportunities to get off but rarely occur, and if it's too short you don't get any time to control the spirits.
I know it sounds like I'm being overly critical, but I love Yorick and am interested in doing what works. It seems that a possible "Ghoul empowerment" or sacrifice to gain additional benefits/abilities could work. I'm just throwing that out there, nothing concrete.
Maybe R#2 should instead just be "channel for X sec to summon Zergling rush" instead of channelled banelings stream?

Xypherous on Heimers and Pushing Champions

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

A couple of points of disagreement here:

1. You assume that all these champions have pushed you out - and that pushing you out is one of their strengths.

The champions you've listed - actually have to fight you in order for you to leave your lane. The ones who don't have to fight you (Jayce and Elise) have been problematic in the past due to their ranged harass at safety and are either problems now or have been severely nerfed for similar reasons.

There is a combination of strong wave push, strong harass and tower pushing power that are the highlights here - The fantasy of Heimerdinger currently consists of standing behind turrets, farming waves via passive turrets, spamming your opponents with undodgeable projectiles and the ability to take your tower?

Trundle is obviously a great duelist - and he can inflict some terrific damage to your tower if you leave him at that. Can Trundle actually harass you at range? Can he force you out from under your tower outside of outright killing you? When does this happen and at what time?

2. When does this happen and is it actually advantageous to do so for the character in question?

If Nasus takes your tower early, he screws himself in a lot of ways. Siphoning Strike needs to be built up - and the inability to control the positioning of the wave or farming a wave without risk is going to cost him in the mid or late game.

Similarly - the question asked is whether top tower is actually worth all that much from a strategic perspective, compared to mid-tower - where people traditionally expect to be able to run mages? Top lane's tower does tend to be the first to fall in a typical game - is it that important compared to the loss of vision for when mid-tower falls? This is made worse by the fact that there's a large difference in being able to siege the second center tower versus the second outer tower, given the compressed distance between the two.

There's more of an issue here when mid-lane is the lane in question as the relative advantage of destroying mid-lane is far greater than the side lanes.

Although, to be fair, you can avoid this one quite easily by claiming - well, then Heimerdinger is a perfectly acceptable top champion and thus you should buff him to fit in top lane - which leads into..

3. Can you actually stop them with people that go in that lane, if the champions were balanced?

Let's be frank here - the current iteration of Heimerdinger is ridiculously anti-melee, especially early. If his power level was bumped high - consider what a typical melee top-laner character could even do.

Heimerdinger is a melee character's nightmare. If Heimerdinger was a top lane champion, he'd actually exhibit a lot of the lack of play that Elise brings to the table. Undeniable ranged poke, bastion of melee safety, built-in warding and strong disengage.

More importantly, in top lane - Heimerdinger never has to duel you to win. This is again, similar to the effect that Jayce and Elise have on the lane. He will simply stand there at a safe zone until you lose. He can't all-in you but he never has to when he works.

Now, I'm not saying Heimerdinger is fine by any means but the tension and overarching questions and concerns are:

1. How easily do you win your lane without risk?
2. How easily can you crush lanes that aren't prepared for you?
3. What should the payoff for that be?

Heimerdinger, when he works, crushes lanes at a safe distance and has really decent matchups against top lane. Therefore, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for that to payoff in such an easy tower kill. Compared to Nasus - who pretty much ties every lane ever.

I know that's not a satisfying answer given how powerful Jayce is at the moment in performing the same kind of functions - but that's why that character is a problem - rather than an example of something functional.
immediately I thought of singed and how he fights without fighting... hmph.
Remember when Singed's ult had attack speed and he could do this and murder your tower?

@Xypherous Then why not just make heimers turret scale with CS? "Screwing" himself in the same way Nasus would. Not only that, but it would make heimers turrets actually viable late game, rather than being blown up in one AoE spell in a team fight.
Well, the fundamental question is how much of a reward you should get for how easily and guaranteed your lane pattern is - tower pushing is one such reward - but turret strength is another.

You've substituted one reward for another but inherently - this just means that instead of taking your tower early, Heimerdinger's turrets are guaranteed to be power-scaled late. :x
Well if the enemy shuts down heimer, then even if his turrets scale into the late, he won't get -as- much farm as normal and they will do more damage, essentially knocking out his turrets faster.
The problem here is turrets have very little play against them unless you have specific tools to deal with them - and it's an on/off switch rather than a skill-based check.

This is much less problematic when you can shut down a character by outplaying him - but dealing with turrets assumes you have a certain set of skills on your kit - the ability to destroy large amounts of minions at range - which isn't a skill-based check so much as a precondition.

Honestly Heimer's towers as-is do next to nothing when pushing, it's the waveclear that helps with his pushing. Early-on your turrets are lucky to do 20 damage to a tower per hit, which are then focused by the enemy's turret and die in 2 hits. Unless you have a siege minion with you, your towers are going to die before doing more than 80 damage to the turret, (negligible considering that's what one or two auto attacks would be doing).
Let's say I had a skill that was called 'tank 2 tower shots for my minion wave and do absolutely no damage' - how much additional damage would I deal to the tower if I had this with a cannon minion wave?
What did heimers E do to towers?
Heimerdinger's 'E' used to damage towers - so his team never actually had to engage, you just lost whenever Heimerdinger got blue buff early and pushed your mid out.

Especially given the range, he could frequently do this from fog of war - and was the cornerstone of some infamous poke comps that never actually interacted with their opponents.

I love it when Xypherous starts listing the flaws in the suggestions but zero solutions.
This is usually because whenever anyone has an easy solution - steps taken are usually to go:

1. Analyze that solution for any flaws.
2. If no flaws exist, put that into a patch or see when we can go put it in a patch.

For things that require more work or more testing - I tend to want to wait for iteration and testing before making any claims. I've been wrong soooo many times. XD

the two things i want to know... why is it his turrets dont take reduced damage from AoE... they die almost instantly in teamfights and with little effort... also why is it towers focus his turrets?
1. It's mostly due to the fact that his ultimate has a built-in heal for his turrets - thus, they actually have twice the listed health in a lot of cases - which is unfortunate because it's balanced around being super swingy.

2. So, if you apply the principles I stated above, towers focus his turrets because he should not have tower damage as one of his strengths if lane dominance is supposed to be one of his strengths.
I feel like that just effiectively niche's heimers turrets into becoming a 'tank' role that doesn't even suffice as a 'tank'. Also, is it fair to assume that the wave my lane counterpart chooses to recall is the one wave that every laner does not want to miss? I.e. the cannon minion wave.

I've never played heimer with the intent of using my turrets to 'tank' tower hits, that ruins (in my opinion) the feel of Heimerdinger entirely.
The reason for this hypothetical (and - you're right -completely absurd) question is basically - even if Heimerdinger's towers did absolutely zero damage to towers - they are still a decent pushing force, simply by the fact that they can tank for an existing minion wave to output damage.
Re-post from the post you quoted: You shove lanes when your enemy recalls to deny farm, which you can no longer do if you plant towers (or at least as effectively). This hurts heimers pushing potential. Since he isn't as good at denying farm, shouldn't that be made up for by creating a better tower-taking situation? Not only that, but once you take a tower down you leave yourself vulnerable to getting ganked as you can no longer shove safely with no real escape.
I think I'm going to disagree with you that a decent Heimerdinger won't deny farm - simply because of how Turrets punish melee farm.

Heimerdinger doesn't need to play by the rules of top lane with shoving or escaping - because Heimerdinger's farm isn't really dependent on his position in the lane. That's honestly kind of the entire draw of having turrets in the first place.

Again - I'm not saying Heimerdinger is good right now - I'm saying that his mechanics, when tuned to work with his live iteration isn't actually healthy.
So, why did the forums suddenly jump on the "ZOMG HEIMER!!!" bandwagon?
To be honest, we've been fanning the flames of this quite a bit. We keep talking about him intermittently bi-weekly or so - and that's basically like pouring salt on an open wound.

It's kind of the trade-offs of communicating - if you don't have a solution, being open is just going to keep issues rebleeding - but it's much better than not talking at all.

They just need to have a minimum range and then the rest of heimer can be safely buffed without making him an absolute pre-nerf top lane nunu level nightmare against melee.
We've actually tried this - what happens generally is that if melee are focused on tanking turrets or stepping into a minimum range- then Heimerdinger simply switches to levelling rockets and because you've sacrificed your positioning to get within the turret minimum range and punishes you with rockets (and somewhat easy grenades.)

The other aspect of this is that at level 6 - this strategy is no longer particularly viable because of the turret heal + slow augmentation.
You're essentially saying that Heimerdinger is almost guaranteed to win his lane, which isn't true in itself. You're also not even saying anything about his mid to late game, but I'm not even going to get into that.
Sorry, if I'm making you think that, let me clarify: He's not guaranteed to win his lane all the time.

However, counterplay against Heimerdinger assumes you have a skill of the following profile: A ranged spell that can clear minions relatively quickly. It is contingent on this fact. If you don't have it, his chances of winning increase dramatically.

If you could outplay Heimerdinger to a certain extent - this would be great - but it is predicated on the fact that you have a certain type of skill in the first place in order to start fighting him. Thus, if you buff Heimerdinger, you make currently 'good' or 'okay' matchups much better - but you haven't actually done much of anything for the matchups in which is he is bad at - so he just becomes more unhealthy in a lot of ways.
Well then you would have Ohmwrecker, which currently sucks.
Well played.

I should make Heimerdinger's Q cost 2850 gold to rank.

Although on that subject - I really need to reconsider whether 'net' items can exist without frustrating people. Its purpose is to be there to counter a meta that doesn't currently exist - this will make it always appear awful.

If you took the siege tank model and applied it to heim, he would still be a great pusher, but it would be possible to push a minion wave hard enough to make the minions converge onto the minimum range of the turrets, which would probably destroy or atleast heavily damage heimer's turrets.

The point is that heimer's turrets would be great for pushing but not really great for counterpushing. Given the small resource cost of turrets, that is balanced.
This assumes Heimerdinger has a single turret - or that his turrets damage each other, which I guess is a tactic that you could take.

And why not? If he wants to place his turrets in such a way that they are in eachothers threat zones, i get damaged by one for trying to take the other. Its only fair that, given all that risk i endure, his turrets should be damaging each other in that case.

It just introduces interesting decision points and counterplay. Makes heim deeper and more interesting to lane with and against.
Kind of - except that you typically don't have as many units as in SC - you have a small group attacking a small group - and with siege tanks, when you have overlapped splash damage ranges - you can actually target AoE's such that the AoEs damage all attackers without damaging friendly units.

I agree that it's a path you can take, you'd just have to automatically give turrets AoE at 1 and make them really stupid units that kill allied units - I'm not sure if people would go for that outside of an intellectual sense - especially since allied turrets would have to be the only things they could damage.
The problem is that anything that presents a different play pattern than the one true pattern endorsed by Riot designers gets *****slapped into place or purposefully nerfed into oblivion.
There's a grain of truth to this - any play pattern that is particularly annoying, obnoxious or warps the game to the detriment of the overall game is fairly unhealthy overall.

It's a choice between whether you kill a particular play pattern because it absolutely destroys existing fun ones or not. Variety is not intrinsically good - but in this case, some play patterns actually reduce variety by making so that other play patterns can't exist in the same space.

For a clear example, let's take AP Trynd - sure. New and different play pattern for the game. What this meant is that no one can actually play anything top lane and have a meaningful game. It just invalidates almost all other play patterns.

What if upon death the turrets exploded, dealing damage to enemies and allies in the explosion radius?
If the damage was meaningful, you have just made turrets even more anti-melee than they currently are.
When it comes down to it, its just a trade off with how much risk you are willing to take, and how much risk you are willing to exert from and on your enemy.
This is a path you could take and it would solve some problems. It would also mean you have balanced turrets because the turrets themselves are dumb units that literally kill themselves.

Whether this is an acceptable cost for the problem you are solving is is the question because outside of an intellectual level of strategy and placement - this turret paradigm actually seems to make Heimerdinger feel even worse to play as.

I'm not saying this has any game health or balance concerns (though it has some weird level up incentives and such) - but whether or not this is a skill you would actually want to use and feel good about or if these turrets could even function outside of the very specific set of circumstances you've laid out.
What's wrong with them being anti-melee? I thought that was why his base stats were originally tuned the way they are, specifically him having very low armor and some of the lowest hp levels in the game...

And if it is still more anti-melee then most champs, why can't that be his specialty?
The question here is whether you consider hard counters and to what degree should a hard-counter be a hard counter? The inverse here is also what are his poor matchups like, given his strengths?

For example, a character who wins 100% of the time at loading screen isn't one that you want to have for the game - especially for things like blind pick.

And it varies based on the game - games in which you can change your character during the game can have varying degrees of hard counter qualities. Games in which you can double or triple up on a role can have a high degree of hard counter qualities to them.

Boil that down to - Let's say that anti-melee was a strength I could give to a champion - how strong should that quality be before the game stops becoming a skill-based game and a pre-counter based game?

I don't think its prudent to just argue when we have both made clear points. In my mind, Heimerdinger is a fantasy that involves making strategic decisions and manipulating threat zones. It involves out smarting your opponent and working with inventions.

That fantasy comes first. Gameplay comes second. Everything else is tertiary.

The "intellectual level of strategy and placement" is what heimerdinger needs in order to feel like heimerdinger. The sort of player that loves to play heimerdinger, loves to make interesting decisions that feel GOOD because of what could have happened if he made the wrong decisions.

The fact that turrets can damage eachother REWARDS skillful heim play, and makes him feel good, not bad.
Here's the problem - you assume that's his fantasy or that that's what players want. And I have repeatedly agreed with you that yes - that is a path you can take to satisfy a subset of the population.

I question whether it is satisfying for players at large, because you have projected that dream onto the entire Heimerdinger population.

I know Xypherous is saying a lot of things about heimerdinger being a melee character's nightmare, but maybe people shouldn't send melees against him then. I'm not a heimer player, but even I know the way he is treated by Riot is unfair for him.
True - but ask yourself whether if or when you can make this choice.

For example, even in Draft, we've seen this with Elise back in her prime. You cannot send a certain type of character against Elise. However, if the enemy team picks Elise - you now need every lane to be prepared to deal with Elise - because she will go to the lane where she is most effective.
I think the "spell that tanks towers is OP, even if it deals no damage" argument is pretty specious. Otherwise, nerf Karma/Soraka. (And nerf Janna, but because she invalidates all-in comps, not because she can shield cannon minions.)
We've actually done similar things when these characters could push waves quickly - strong wave clear, ranged harass and the ability to tank towers have all been problematic qualities that AP mid or AP top versions of these characters have that we have addressed in various ways.

Like... give them a laser sight that you orient upon placing them, and with a certain cooldown, you could turn them to point a different direction.

Obviously this nerfs raw power, so you could buff in other ways. It doesn't change pushing itself, because you pretty much know where minions are going to come from, but it now adds geography to the lane that there are certain lines the opponent can't cross safely (rather than whole areas that you just can't go through), and creative opponents can take advantage of.
Yeah - this is somewhat tangentially path that is going down - the main train of thought being: Why do turrets only have one attack? When has that ever worked in any game ever?
I have no answer for you. You could make his ultimate temporarily make his turrets immune to splash, among other things, but that only provides artificial relief.

This is why I don't work on desiging champions. It is difficult for me to let go of a vision and see the game through the eyes of a million other people.
This is one of the key steps towards becoming a designer. To have the level of self-awareness that you do is actually a really positive sign towards it - because you have to be aware of the fault in order to work around it.

Now - I'm not saying that I'm actually better in this regard, I just try to make the most flexible thing I can and try to satisfy as many people with the least amount of constraints but still make strategic options available - but that's led me down a whole plethora of other problems.

Don't let that stop you from doing but I think the step from your realization here is 'how do you maximize the potential benefits of the vision that you have, while minimizing the cost of your vision.'
Vayne doesn't invalidate tanks as a role anymore than Kassadin shuts mages down in the lane. There has to be a way to let Heimer say "Get close...if you dare," without neutering melees. Since that's what turrets are all about - claiming a strategic position as your own.

I'm quite confident that the toxic part of his kit isn't the turrets (counterplay: ambush him, force him away from them, or catch him without them). It's the la-la-la, I autopilot rocket you while you take a risk on killing my turrets.
You've hit upon some great points here - but timing is a major consideration for Vayne / Kassasdin and the like. They are anti-mages or anti-melees in a lot of ways - but they need a certain time before they actually become those roles. It's the difference between having that kind of power at level 6 versus having that kind of power at level 2 or 3.

I agree with you that rockets are fairly toxic but I think the toxic portion of turrets typically come from denying the enemy from being able to stand near or rely on their minion wave early in the game - or advancing outward from their tower to threaten you.
Because he's ranged and hard to catch? In 2009, I'd have agreed with you. This is 2013. You release two champions a month that are tanky, have dashes/movement steroids/teleports, strong cc, and great stats, often without mana. How do you justify letting months roll by without making small fixes when your large fix is admittedly so far out of reach?
There's a pretty - if awful, easy litmus test you can use - 'Would the game be better if this change was made overall?'
For me? As a person who plays Heimerdinger? God yes would it.
That's innately why the question isn't 'Would the game be better for you?'

It's 'Would the game be better?'

There are lots of things I could do to make the game better for me. I don't think that it would be a better game.
3) Heimer needs to interact with/maintain his turrets. I won't bring up specifics of your old (leaked? screenshotted? forged?) prototypes, but he needs to have a reason to stay near them if they're going to operate at max power for balance's sake. And he should have a feeling of synergy with them, for fantasy/fun's sake. A duel as Heimer should involve more than waffling in circles around your slow-turrets.
Eugh - It is hard to describe how much that leak cost in terms of overall time. Sorry - still bitter. >_<

Thinking on this - this is a great discussion we're having - but I think I want to end it here as I require sustenance.

I also need to sync up with some people on next steps to see what we can do to be more open and honest about the process here but I'll need to coordinate with some people first.

I'll try to get around to making more of a substantial post Monday night or so on this if I'm not stopped.
I don't understand... How can a leak about good mechanics cause you to drop those mechanics?
Having a test realm compromised has severe implications on iteration speed, especially when other projects are time sensitive and you suddenly need another battery of testing resources.



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