Match History Assets, Even More on Jayce, Damiya on SGU Delay

 Super Important: [Air Only Patch] Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 7/14/2013 - Aegis/Runic Bulwark/Locket

Match History Assets

If you missed it on Friday, we spotted the a new file "MatchHistory.Swf". This appears to have got others interested, and  Pabro on Reddit noticed a new asset file for this new file from a few patches ago. 

 Even More on Jayce

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hey Xypherous I've been lurking for a while and ive seen the plans for accelerated shock blast and It just doesnt seem right to have the speed decay over time, how quick is this decay?
Right now the decay happens over 0.667 seconds - so essentially the decay fully kicks in after moving 60% of the distance.

This number is still being tuned to make Shock Blast feel dodge-able.

I don't get how Jayce's power is confined to really obtuse cases like abusing crit and IE bonus, while Jayce is so strong in competitive play, and no one in competitive play has ever built crit on Jayce.
This particular change is more of an abuse in Dominion than Summoner's Rift.

imagine this rather than a ball of energy only being sped up after going through a energy field why not have it alter the ball of energy into a beam, sort of like a focusing lens.
I know that's probably a really good change for Jayce overall for acceleration gate to provide a tangential bonus to Shock Blast rather than making Shock Blast better in all respects - However, what I'm attempting to avoid right now is what I fear we did to Olaf a while ago - nerf him flatly across all ELOs and still not solving his competitive strengths. If we keep flatly nerfing Jayce - he's going to be unplayable except in the highest tiers - we need to shift his power around to good places, otherwise Jayce will just be weak.

Trying to do this as quickly as possible so Jayce doesn't feel like he's in the twilight phase of 'needs to be reworked' and 'weak'

Edit: Updated original post with some revised numbers of the current testing iteration. Still no word on when this current one will be out on the PBE - it's highly likely you guys have some of crazy hybrid version in between the two.

Essentially - trying to tone down hammer-less level 1 form harass a bit.

Side Note: I know I work fairly chaotically - so thanks to everyone who's been keeping up and providing feedback. It's a mutual goals of trying to make Jayce the best character he can be while also avoiding him from being completely dominant competitively so hopefully this works out. :x
Have you had a chance to test these changes behind closed doors yet? I'd be curious to hear how it performed. If my worries about the cost/risk-to-benefit of his hammer kit look like they are unfounded in practice, that would be good to know. Those concerns are still present, but if I beat that dead horse any more I'm afraid it'll turn into Hecarim.
Yeah - most of my testing has been focused on whether or not top lane hammer from has been decent - so focused testing around what is the best lane pattern versus certain champions - whether or not I still feel compelled to never stick around and trade.

So taking relatively overpowering melee tops like Renekton, etc - and whether seeing a melee pattern is having a decent effect. We've also been doing testing in the reverse case - as to how to play against a ranged focused Jayce - but mostly this boils down to 'Hey, did you know that Doran's Shield makes Hyper Charge seem silly?'

The other portion of testing has mostly focused around the mid matchups - but admittedly this is just shock blast tuning.

What I'm a little confused on though is the melee W. So when statick field is up you say it 'applies a mark.' When you tap someone with the mark with your AA is the mark popped and your goal is to hit everyone once who got hit by the field, or is it more like a debuff and you just do additional damage to them while the field is active?

If it's the first case how long does the mark persist? If you activate the field out of range and THEN walk into range does the mark still get applied?
Not sure which version made it to the PBE at the moment - but the idea is that the mark is continuously reapplied while they are in lightning field and the mark lasts for two seconds.

The mark is not consumed on attack - so the idea is to hit them as many times as decently possible while they are marked.

If you activate the field out of range then walk into range (like, with TTS) the mark should still get applied - though that may not be what you're playing.

I'm not totally convinced we're there yet (more below), but it's very gratifying to see that feedback having an effect.
Kind of why I'm posting - I know we're doing these set of changes fairly hot and fast with limited testing. While more information may not necessarily be better - more eyes probably isn't a bad thing in case we miss an edge case.

Given the mana gating of TB, I still think TTS could stand to be tuned upward. Maybe I haven't seen the burst case you seem to be giving such a berth to
It's mostly Jayce's level 2 all-in on live that we're trying to dance around.
b) If not, is there anything to the notion of keeping early rank bases low to address that but ramping higher with ranks?
We'll see - we haven't had a series of really in-depth midgame centric tests as I'm focused on the lane feel paradigms.

a) I'm hesitant to jump on board with nerfing that sort of high risk, high reward start. Full AD Riven is similar- she gambles everything on being able to wreck her lane at level 2.
To be perfectly fair - that's one of the reasons Riven fails as a design - I should really start messing around with trying to improve moment to moment counterplay for her rather than the strategic counterplay goals I set out initially.

Okay 4 a.m. - most likely I should make preparations to pass out - so I'll be unable to respond.

Most likely I'm not going to get much in the form of iteration over the weekend - and I suspect that the Jayce on PBE is a little wonky due to being being some kind of weird work in progress build but theoretically he should be available to play.

Some of the tooltips might still be messed up - need to clean up stuff.

I'm most interested in the following points and it would be great if you guys could provide thoughts and experiences from what you see in game - or just general thoughts on the pattern overall and whether or not I'm missing something.

1 - As Jayce, Whether his top lane feels like Hammer form is 'worth it' to switch to and swap damage in, instead of just spamming Thundering Blow!

2 - As an opponent of Jayce, Whether his top lane feels egregious to fight against to due safe ranged spam - whether or not this Jayce is essentially more 'fair' to fight against and gives you more opportunities to fight back.

3 - As an opponent of Mid Jayce, Whether his Shock Blasts feel more fair to dodge late game - They will still hit like trucks - but hopefully they are stylish narrow exploding trucks that can miss rather than massive thundering boulders of death.

4 - As a mid Jayce, whether or not Shock Blasts feel like they have sufficient payoff.

I suspect we most likely have not hit extreme high-end burst enough - but I'm hoping that the removal of something on the order of 0.7 Bonus AD ratio off the high end in exchange for roughly 110 base damage, +3% Max Health damage will curb some of this.
The 5 bonus damage from his passive at its first ranks feels like a joke. After reductions it comes out to about 1 damage.
Drat. That only confirms that the build that made it on PBE isn't the latest one that I have on the first post - this has been retuned to start at 10 damage to avoid this very issue.

I want more hammer in his hammer ... grr ... I don't know it's 5am I'll try again tomorrow.
Again - not quite the latest version on PBE - since retuned some numbers significantly compared to my first pass.
Xypherous: Sun is coming up! I need to get back into my coffin. Just one more post, but I need to hurry so I can avoid the sun!
Pretty much this.

What do you want from the ability hyper charge? For it to do nothing? Its a quick burst that requires him to be quite close in range + you're suggesting that muramana is the problem not jayce; that if hyper charge is tweaked it will be good without muramana - it just won't be ---
Xypherous has pretty much stated that muramana isn't the real issue, its Jayce's kit and his abuse of it with not just hyper charge but all his abilities - the spam, the poke, the hammer E, everything.
Clarifying this a little - Muramana is an issue with Jayce's power level as his burst potential is really high with it - but just nerfing Muramana won't make a non-poke non-burst Jayce better - it'll just make every Jayce build equally bad.

It may definitely be the right call to nerf Muramana - but first you have to figure out what does a Jayce without Muramana look like early/late game? What mana items does he build? How does he play? Does that playstyle work?

Because otherwise, you're just like - Welp - You have no builds and we nerfed everything else around you, good luck.

1) His poke is too good for free farming. Even if it's easier to dodge from long range, you can still free farm just as much as you want with it because minions don't dodge.
Having 6 ranks allows me to stretch out the damage between ranks and hit the mana per damage ratio of this ability.

So it you look at the ranks in damage:




You can see that at every rank until rank 6 - Shock Blast is doing less damage per mana by virtue of the fact that it's doing less damage overall. Since I haven't touched the mana costs on Q - the relative efficiency you get on mana per point has also been somewhat reduced.

On the flip side - TTS! has much higher damage attached to it - which means he *can* use that to minion farm, but that also puts him in hammer form and next to minions which offers more of a window for opponents to engage if he's primarily doing that.

2) His range form is much more superior than his melee form that there's no point to go into ranged form.
Assuming you mean no point in going into hammer form. :3

Hammer form at the moment on live isn't as pronounced because the optimal build ignores putting points into Transform - which is where Hammer Form gets a lot of its passive bonuses - the hammer proc and free resistances.

The hope here (and obviously, I could still be off) is that by making it based off character level - the hammer form is going to get some of its power back because we balanced around assuming that 'R' would be ranked early. (Rather than currently at 12/13 to access more shred for the gun form.)

3) His accel gate is still a one-point wonder to buff his Q damage as it doesn't scale so his damage skyrocket after lv 2 and will continue to go up really high.

4) He deals too much damage from leveling only one skill. God gated Q is worth one ult in term of damage and his To the Skies is worth a normal skill. That's just too much for something that's so spammable.
Which is again why stretching it out across 6 ranks instead of 5 makes intuitive sense to me - He *will* gain a lot of damage from levelling out that one skill - at some point though - that one skill's gains will have to somehow equalize with an ultimate.

Having 6 ranks allows for each level-up to be weaker - but still end up compensating for the lack of an ultimate.

Essentially - we need to think about what kind of limiters could gate him much more effectively at levels 1 to 3 - because that's when the power of having 6 abilities kicks in - after that though - you need to think about what kind of benefits that you can give him at 6 without creating a massive spike at 9 to smooth out the power curve difference between him and other champions.

Hence - putting another spike at 11 (which is when you get your rank 6 ability) matches up with everyone else's level 11 (which is when they get their rank 2 ultimate) and focusing on Capacitor and Hammer passives to be free at 6.

Anyhow, here's hoping at least - have to double down and test some more.
I am not sure about your thought process here. You are saying that you need to give hima spike at lvls 6 ,11, 16. But the thing is there is very few champions with 6 ablites. The normal champs (aka 4 ablity) need to have a power spike. The power spike is there Ult that has (most of the time) huge cool downs.
The problem with 6 ability champions is that they have a spike in power from 1 to 3 (because they have access to all 6 abilities) - compared to their lane opponents, which creates early dominance.

However, at level 6 - they very quickly lose this advantage because their lane opponents get an ultimate on them which pretty much means they'll lose any all-in attempts. 6 ability Jayce versus Renekton with his ultimate - Renekton will single handedly devour you, for example. (Although that may be more of a sign of Renekton than anything else. :P)

This also means that they have a double spike at level 9 - as they'll have fully maxed two abilities (similar to Zilean) - which means that a 6 ability champion looks something like this:

1-3 Dominant
4-5 ??
6-8 Poor
9 Dominant

This discrepancy creates a lot of interesting gameplay - but it's a little too much from anyone who's experienced playing against them.

So the job is basically - look at all these spikes, how do we tone down some of the early spikes such that they'll be more fair to fight against and smooth out some of the terrible dips so they won't be completely powerless at that time.

The difference in power curves is always an interesting one - but a lot of the cool aspects to the curve can be gained without needing the difference to be so pronounced which is the current case - especially the second spike at level 9 seems fairly superfluous in terms of overall value.

TL;DR - 6 ability champs have strong 1-3, weak 6, strong 9, moderate 11. Normal champions have normal 1-5, strong 6, moderate 9, strong 11.

End curve goal for Jayce is above average 1-3, below average 6, moderate 7-10, strong 11 - still keeping the relative differences intact but taking away some of the unnecessary spikes/dips that cause extremes.
Xypherous, what do you mean by Zilean maxing two abilities at level 9?
Zilean effectively has two max'ed abilities at level 9 because Rewind effectively "copies" a spell slot.
I've been playing a bit of Jayce for the past day, and I'm really enjoying his Hammer form w. I've been trying out a sunfire cape/wit's end/iceborn gauntlet build and I feel very powerful in my all ins, and I've found mana to be a non-issue unless I try to spam hypercharge.

Honestly, i feel like the on-hit portion of his static field is a bit too strong; combined with TTS, his passive, and hypercharge, it allows for a huge amount of burst potential.
I know - the version on PBE right now is 20 to 70 magic damage - I had intended this to be 20 to 45 magic damage on hit but my changes got desync'ed from the PBE deploy.

So I just played Jayce vs Bots. and I notice that you can W from hammer into Range and the bonus damage on auto's is there. Is this intended cause I'm thinking with hammer w into range w with muramana the damage is gonna be ridiculous. I honestly liked what I was playing gonna play some normals tomorrow.
This is another side effect of the PBE deploy happening mid-changes - I wasn't able to quite get the version I described out - which is a lot more melee centric.
Bruiser Jayce IS good. It is just no where near as good as a full damage build on him because of his built in self peel, escape, and chase ability, combined with incredibly high ratios.
Given how sub-par Jayce is doing at the moment for non-competitive players even before patch 3.9 - I'll leave this up to you to decide whether it's Bruiser Jayce is actually good or not - especially since we've hit him in 3.9 with multiple item nerfs and the gate cooldown.

Jayce DOESN'T need that much mana; the mana build just allows him to have crazy poke constantly rather than forcing him to ration his mana. Have you ever seen Crit carry Jayce? It doesn't have quite as much poke, but it can kill just about anyone in 3-4 hits as it is now (You are nerfing this, but that doesn't change the fact that you just said it wasn't viable.) The damage output is so high from the build that even though you aren't particularly tanky, you can walk into the middle of a teamfight and kill the people you want to so fast that it doesn't matter. Lifesteal will keep you up once those targets you needed to kill are dead.
I have indeed seen Crit Carry Jayce - it's a build that ruins a lot of Dominion games. While it's not an abusive build on SR simply due to the fact that if you fall behind you fall waaay behind - it's an edge case that causes Jayce to spike unnaturally in that mode - which is why we're removing the critical chance interaction at the high end.

Your changes aren't going to fix Jayce. They are just going to make him overall stronger. Everything about him except his W in cannon form and his R is getting buffed overall, when his W and R are the least abusive parts of his kit, despite having the most potential for abuse with non-standard builds.
Let me get this perfectly clear: I don't particularly care about nerfing or buffing Jayce. I want Jayce's power to be in his common use cases and not edge abuse cases.

The problem right now is that the dominant playstyle (and most effective playstyles) for playing Jayce is eating up the lion's share of Jayce's power budget. Now we could keep nerfing the dominant playstyle directly - but given the amount of nerfs he's had - that most likely simply leaves all Jayce's weaker - not somehow make Bruiser Jayce better.

There seems to be this notion that if you somehow nerf only Muramana Jayce enough - his other builds will become more viable in the game. While Bruiser Jayce will become relatively better - this isn't the same thing as making sure that Jayce can be viable.

For example the hypercharge change, which slightly nerfed the dmg(largely in dominion) but also reduced the CD which might have actually increased its overall dps.
The reduced CD at rank 6 is to compensate for the fact that the CD now starts after you use all 3 charges - which means the CDs are roughly the same.

Mainly - this is targetted at removing a stringed use case where you get 6 'W' shots in a row - by hitting 'W', pausing for 2 seconds, then going into engagement range, firing 'W' - and instantly hitting 'W' again to get another 3.
Then nerf it in dominion. Isn't that what this map specific balance is for? For when a build or champion that in SR is balanced, but is OP elsewhere, nerf it there. You just said that this build is fine on summoners rift but not on dominion, but then you say you are removing it from both, not one month after you just announced map specific balance changes, of which Jayce is already on the nerf list for his extreme poke and high mobility. I just don't get why immediately after stating that different characters are going to be balanced on different maps, you make a nerf that applies to all of them because of one of them.
Let me rephrase - Critical Chance Jayce isn't effective on SR because it's incredibly swingy - You either do extremely well and blow someone up instantly - or you fall behind and you lose completely. Build variety takes second place to having a terrible gameplay experience - especially one that takes advantage of an edge case to begin with.

Is it a less problematic build on SR? Of course it is - simply because it happens less frequently. Does it mean it isn't a problematic build? No - it just happens less frequently because when you lose - you are completely useless as there's less of a net to catch you when you fail early.

Furthermore, consider balancing around this build in SR - Jayce will lose power on his overall kit when critical strike scales different on him. Is this a cool or desirable Jayce build? No, it just hopes to one-shot you during his Hyper Charge. Does it make Jayce a better character or create more interplay between builds? No, again, it just hopes to one-shot you during Hyper Charge.

While this is primarily a Dominion related problem - this is just bad design overall. Even if the problems don't show up too often on SR - there's no real reason to have this stick around as part of the power level of Jayce.

Sorry for repeating this, but what do you guys think of my ideas for jayce e cd?

There's no real gain in spending 4 skill points to reduce the CD of a skill by 2, nor is it particularly intuitive.

Just make it linear - unless there's an actual reason to stop at skill level 4.

Damiya on SGU Delay

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

I can speak to this a bit from the tech side. As a note it's a bit long, but I hope some of the detail will provide clarity and value so you guys understand a bit better what the state of the world is.

It's been a very busy week for the development teams here at Riot, with the Hydra issue and the bugsplats, reports of FPS drops ingame and finally the disconnect issues in a number of environments. 

All of these things require serious effort from the part of people involved; from Release doing very late nights to deploy hotfixes to the critical issues to QA spending late hours digging into the disconnect stuff; I spent 14 hours on Thursday and pulled another 13 hours at work yesterday digging into the worldwide disconnect problem. (For the record, I've done that gladly and the people I work with have done the same. ) You guys are important to us, and fixing things that interrupt play time are absolutely critical.

But that's just the background, let's talk about SGU; releasing something, *anything* carries risk. It requires coordination from a couple dozen people over a period of hours to get that content pushed to a wide variety of environments across the globe; QA, Release, Build Engineering and so on. Even the most basic skin requires a lot of awesome people to ease it gently into the world.

Now let's raise the stakes; we have the second Ultimate, a piece of content that you guys are eager to get (and that we're eager to provide!). Summoner Icons, Profile Banners, the Login Screen, and holy-cow-a-lot-of-models-and-animations-and-stuff ingame. There's a lot of moving parts, and it's very important we get everything right; we also have to be ready in case things go wrong (knock on wood). 

I wasn't involved in making the decision to hold off on Spirit Guard Udyr (that's way above my pay grade) but as someone who's been working on the other emergent issues, I fully support it. I doubt it was an easy decision, because letting players down sucks, but adding more risk to what's already been a rocky week for a lot of our players... Well that kinda sucks too! 

I had a really good conversation with someone recently about player expectations: you guys are demanding. And I say that with a smile because it's one of the things I love most about this community: it's full of passionate, engaged people who want Riot to deliver excellence. Everyone here wants to deliver that excellence, and sometimes that means making people wait for something awesome.


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