[Updated] Riot Looking for Rengar Feedback, Three New Yorick Kits (And a LOT More on Yorick), More on Jayce, Sale

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[Updated] Riot Looking for Rengar Feedback

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

To clarify - i'm still interested in Bonetooth being a stack item that works on kills and assists. As a trophy hunter, it's pretty key to who he is as a character and the reason it was implemented in the first place. My big issue however, is that right now it's purely a snowball item with only one really interesting augment.

I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.

Three New Yorick Kits (And a LOT More)

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

I had this idea for a Yorick kit come to mind while I was sitting in bed tonight.

What do you think? Clarification: Spirits are ghoul ammo. Can't make ghouls if you have 0 ammo.

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cant wait for new yorick! Xelnath is my new favorite rioter after this and new xerath.
One thing i did notice is that blood mark seems a little weak. At level 5 its only healing for 15, dont you think thats a bit on the low side?
Best not to fixate on numbers. Imagine it has something appropriate there
Losing health if you go over 3 ghouls just seems a bit silly to me. Either you want him to be capped at 3 ghouls, or you don't want him to be capped at 3 ghouls. Punishing people for not carefully managing their spirits at only 3 ghouls is silly.
Also the flame seems out of character. Why is a zombie master messing around with fire? You might as well have a tree using a chainsaw.
FINALLY, the removal of BOTH his ability to slow and heal for any large amount seems excessive. He'd basically have to have Mordekaiser levels of unmovable strengths to ever be picked. (And considering Mordekaiser is never picked competitively you're dooming Yorick to pub stomping.)
Let me give some suggestions:
His W should full heal a ghoul -> deal AoE damage around a ghoul -> turn that ghoul in to an AoE slow machine. This would enforce him using ghouls to maintain his CC, rather than just having CC whenever his W is up.
His Q seems like a good "you have a lot of ghouls around you, and now you have a lot of damage taken" mechanic. It'd force enemies to actually react to his ghouls and not want to be surrounded as they'd get slashed with damage. This is a good idea.
His ultimate shouldn't be consuming his spirits. You're effectively enforcing him to sit around with 5 spirits to get max effect out of it. It's like anti Syndra where you DON'T want to use abilities to maximize your ult. Very counter productive.
Blood rush should be 2x heal against champions, and as such have the effect severely reduced against minions. All I'm seeing with this ability is "line nuke through creeps, cleave them, full HP!" This is very Mordekaiser in levels of lane dominance.
You know, when you focus on giving positive feedback, you have some very useful insights, Hash.
What's the purpose of casting his W on a ghoul instead of just on a champion? Bigger area? More range?
I guess this wasn't clear.

Casting "W" on a ghoul turns it into a baneling. (suicide bomber unit)

Otherwise, ghouls are like elise spiders that chill with Yorick.
I don't understand why you feel the need to gut the one skill that makes Yorick awesome and competitively picked (his ultimate) in the process of making him more exciting and rewarding to play.
He's able to CLONE A MEMBER OF YOUR TEAM or TEMPORARILY REVIVE SOMEONE. That's awesome. And it's utilized fantastically competitively. It's what makes Current Yorick...Yorick.
Yorick's ultimate is the reason he can't be good late game. It's also the reason that he has an absurd midgame power spike, but players cannot consistently optimize him due to the dependence on allies understanding his kit.

The min-max case on Yorick's ultimate is extremely niche and extremely swingy. That's the reason it needs to die. That ultimate is holding the rest of Yorick back.
I suggest experimenting with transforming yorick into an AP mid sort of guy, xelnath
Do you guys really want Yorick to itemize AP? Is this a common interest?

I don't really care if the damage comes from AP or AD, just so long as building health and getting into the fray is important.
Specifically, to make Yorick more interesting, I want his ultimate to change the way combat feels:
Latest Iteration: You are fighting Yorick normally, he has ~3 ghouls. Yorick uses Ult, now you are fighting him the same way you were before, but he has ~8, give or take a few.
How It Should Be: You are fighting Yorick normally, the # of ghouls does not matter, but then... he pauses. He digs. You know what's coming, GET OUT OF THERE! YOU DON'T HAVE LONG! AAHHHHHHH ZOMBIES AND GHOULS EVERYWHERE NOOOOO GETTHEMOFFME!!!! -=An Ally has been Slain=-

Hahaha, okay, sure. I agree seeing the ground rumble and the hands reach out of the ground before the zombies spawn would be awesome.

My big thing here was R -> zergling rush (sustained damage). R + W -> Baneling swarm (burst damage)
I really wish the "____lings" concepts would go away... the entire complaint about his ghouls in the first place was that they felt unimportant and didn't last long enough. Now, his new kit is designed around them being like Elise's spiderlings which are amazingly even less substantial than his original ghouls.

I appreciate the effort so far (please don't read any disrespect Xelnath, I love that you're looking at him) but I have a feeling I won't like how this ends... and I doubt I'm the only one.
If every single person who reads this thread doesn't have misgivings about at least one of my iterations, it means I'm not doing my job. The point of having an open exploration is to understand the kind of responses people have to them.

There's three major models for an alternate unit controlling champion:

Summoner - Big Effect + Buddy that lasts (Annie)
Pet - Permanent Buddy / Helper (Orianna/WoW Hunter)
Minion - Disposable units (Elise)

Yorick is clearly supposed to be in the minion category. This means he can't feel too attached to any specific unit but keeping his total minion count down should be meaningful.

Right now I'm exploring a Pikmin / Captain Olimar space where he can use minions in different ways. I agree the lantern flame is a bit weird. What if it was more like:

[E] Ghoul Rush - When cast on a location, one of yorick's ghouls will rush to that location, dealing damage to anything in the path. This ability can be re-cast until all of his ghouls have dashed.

Then you use E + Q combos for harassment. E + W combos for all-in heavy damage.
so I still don't get what the positive is to making a ghoul the baneling in this situation. You lose a ghoul, don't slow, and get the same damage. What makes it better to put it on a ghoul than just hitting a champion with it?
You cast "W" on a location. If there's a ghoul in that location, they transform. While a ghoul is meleeing a champion, you layer W on top and the ghoul becomes a suicide bomber.
If you can target multiple ghouls with your W, wouldnt it turn into some rather strange gameplay? Asuming ghouls behave like spiderlings, and you target them with your spell, wouldnt you most of the time hit mor then one(or spend some provcessing time on targeting in a way like veigar uses his stun). Also, the numbers will become quite... strange. Either you send an army of ghouls yout that deal ridiculous burst, or turn the spell rather weak as a "normal" ability. Or you use some machanic as ahri's w, wich reduces dmg multiple hits, wich would bring me back to point one where you dont want to hit more than .
If we consider the new "E" to be "Go over here, Ghoul", then you are moving a ghoul from your backline into the front line, then transforming it.

Here's a revised tooltip.

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Why is he clearly supposed to be in the minion category? To me, that's what the original complaint was... where his design missed the intended mark... that he has a bunch of ghouls who run around doing nothing and die. People wanted ghouls to mean something and feel important. People expected him more to be in the pet category or at least somewhere between pet and minion (disposable yet important units with unique characteristics). His concept art has 3 unique ghouls, not a swarm of zerglings that are just there to function as a token counter.
I mean, I'm not privy to the conversations you're having right now but this design doesn't resemble the feedback from the beginning of the thread or even the conversation with Morello where he's supposed to be more of a necromancer. Yes, Necromancers can summon waves of brain dead minions but they almost always have a pet (zombie, familiar, whatever). Yorick already has his 3 and this design removes them in favor of faceless, personality-less blandlings.
I don't get it.
In this form, the Ghouls are always with him. They hang around until used or killed. He can just command them to die. Does that bother you?
So the idea of a minion master is probably correct, but that doesn't mean that his Ghouls need to be as static and dull as Elise's spiderlings. The interaction with his spells seems like a good idea, but why not add in the effect to make the ghouls expendable, with the trade off being that you need to manage when you "blow" your ghouls?
Okay, so what do you think of this idea?

[Q] -> Make all ghouls aoe
[W] -> Makes a ghoul you cast it over turn into a kamikaze bomber
[E] -> Makes a ghoul rush to a location.

That seems more interactive than elise spiderlings already. Am I missing something?
How about:
[E] Haunting Ghoul
- When cast, one of Yourick's ghouls rushes to target location, damaging anything in the path. Upon arrival, the ghoul will stop there and transform into a Spirit, illuminating the area and slowing enemies with a small range. This spirit lasts 30 seconds or until destroyed. If Yoric comes close to the Spirit, he picks it up and adds it to his lantern.
So the idea is that his E is a "spotter" that he can pick back up again? That is a cool idea. It might be better on a different champion.
Xelnath, I have one question: your latest design has his E being useless if he doesn't ghouls, unlike the Q and W, which both have SOME use even without allied ghouls. Do you feel like that lantern illumination would do anything? Reveal fog of war, or reveal enemy champions for a few seconds? The lack of any use without ghouls seems a little odd to me, even if it is his primary ghoul-movement ability.
Sorry, I thought the fact that it would reveal fog of war was obvious. Think of it as a small clairvoyance effect.
Xelnath I am constantly getting mixed signals from you. You never replied to one of my post so I feel like you either didn't read or didn't like them. Then suddenly you implement a mechanic that I suggested in my post which might be pure coincident. (This time the bomber ghoul slowing as well).
That's why I will just keep repeating my idea for E until you reply to it (or until Yorick rework is done).
Please remain calm. I cannot see every post and reply to it. This doesn't mean you're unimportant. I'm slightly outnumbered here.

The idea of him scooping up a ghoul with his shovel and lobbing it at an enemy is pretty neat. The idea of throwing it to protect an ally is cool too, but I suspect it would be kind of tough for most people to figure out the best way to use it.

Do you disagree?

His E could be "Scoop n' Toss: Scoops up a nearby ghoul and tosses it to a location, dealing AoE damage. If an enemy is in the area, the ghoul will attack a nearby target. If no ghouls are alive, scoops a clod of dirt instead."

Why does he have AP scaling if all his abilities do physical damage??


Why does it have to be tiny ghouls? can't it be big summons akin to annie's ult?

also what about the potential of "stealing" the soul/corpse of a jungle mob and using that as a pet? (or minions, too)

i figure a lot of the reason people take importance of mobs are how visually aware they are of them (this is why tibbers is important, alongside his damage)
I feel like the small minion direction is correct. I'd prefer we focus our time and efforts in that space.
So are you completely opting out for sustain in the kit now?
Summoning new ghouls *is* sustain, since they absorb a part of the damage he takes.
You can do that AND keep 3 different types of ghouls
Red: Bonus damage
Green: Speed boost.
Blue: Shield.
Red: Bonus damage
Green: Slows
Blue: Reveals.
Red: Chases
Green: Slow zone
Blue: Reveals, takes 1/2 damage.
Too complex.
That's not specificly a yorick problem. Darius has the same issue.
Though Maw and Mercuial Scimitar exist for MR/AD.
Though I don't think there are ANY armor/AD items.
But mostly i want flexibility. Like how you can go AD or AP ezreal.
Yorick should be able to do AD/AP.
The problem is that if you have more than one damage type, then you are incredibly hard to itemize against. See Irelia getting all physical damage.

Players generally build resistances based on what items they see you build, so that means if he's AD, he'll be doing physical damage. If he's AP, he'll be doing magical damage, except on auto attacks.

I'm fine going one way or the other, but I'm not going to do a hybrid.

Why is the 4 horsemen theme important? He isn't a horse. He doesn't even ride one. Not even Hecapony.

Okay, I don't think its worth the mental burden to preserve the ability names while designing mechanics. Names are a powerful lever to communicate mechanics conceptually.

I'm not going to reliniquish that communication tool in a venue where idea communication is key.
Hi Xelnath,
I just have two concerns with the newest iteration:
1. Are exploding ghouls target-able and squishy? Because they should be. The cool thing about banelings in SC2 is that they are high risk, high reward. They do tons of damage if they connect, but they are also able to be picked off and explore harmlessly at range. Allowing opponents to burst the exploding ghouls early opens up counterplay. If the only counterplay is to run away or take the damage, then we've just recreated the scenario that makes live Yorick so frustrating.
2. I still don't feel like I'd have enough options if I'm facing the Yorick of your most recent build. I have two options when dueling Yorick. First, I can ignore ghouls and go for Yorick, which allows him to be tankier as the ghouls take a % off my damage. Second, I can target ghouls and then go for Yorick after. In the second scenario, I used up valuable resources (time/mana/cooldowns) to take down ghouls, which effectively allowed Yorick to be tankier because the ghouls tanked the damage that I could have directed at Yorick. Basically, both options sound bad because in the end they don't feel that different. Either way, ghouls are going to make Yorick tankier, so as his opponent, I feel like I'm not really doing much. This is the problem with live Yorick as well. Killing ghouls doesn't feel impactful.
How it should be:
Yorick's ghouls should be his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. Killing ghouls should be rewarded, or else ghouls shouldn't be targetable at all. A situation where attacking ghouls is a trap should be avoided at all costs.
A suggestion for improvement:
The most straightforward way to deal with this is to introduce a "painlink" between ghouls and Yorick. Damaging a ghoul deals some damage to Yorick. Another option is a "deathlink." Dealing a killing blow to a ghoul triggers a set amount of damage to Yorick (maybe a % of current health).
In any event, the important thing is to make it meaningful when the enemy targets ghouls, or to erase the option altogether.
I generally agree with this philosophy. Here's how I view it:

Attacking Yorick directly means you get to deal damage TO YORICK.
Attacking the ghouls directly means you get to reduce Yorick's DAMAGE OUTPUT.

This is a huge deal. Going all-in on Yorick says "I can win now". Whittling down his ghouls says, "I want to win later". That is a reasonable decision point to me.
What if we keep the color ghost, but only as the passive?
Passive: Yorick summons 3 ghost, red, green, and blue. If they die, they are automatically revived after after X seconds. While they are alive, yorick get's a bonus.
Red: 5% bonus AD.
Green: 5% damage reduction.
Blue: 5% bonus Lifesteal and spellvamp.
It's just stat inflation that gives an illusion of decision making that doesn't pay off. This was my first iteration on Yorick. People didn't feel good about killing a ghoul to stop 5% life steal for 20 sec. Bigger amounts only felt worse.

Players enjoy stopping tangible benefits. E.g. nuking down a Zyra plant means there's less area denial and I am now free to move around.
Random Idea - Yorick Has no Health bar at all, killing all his ghouls kills Yorick. This adds an interesting gameplay mechanic of sorts when it comes to CC effects. Do you CC a ghoul so he can't use it, or do you CC Yorick so he can't use all 3 even though it won't damage him? This encourages him to be a tank for his ghouls since he is immune to damage.
That's... well, a bit too strong. :P
This will probably get ignored as it is a thematic question, but can we get more interactions with the ghouls (i.e. quotes, /emote shenanigans, etc)? Something similar to the darklings from The Darkness? That'll help distinguish them from something like Eliese's spiders and will add some depth to Yorick's character.
So I played The Darkness this past weekend. For the majority of the game, the minions weren't that strong. Most NPCs ignored them, they died constantly, I didn't feel like I could get them to do what I wanted.

Was it just the VO that you liked? What was it about this game you felt really made it have good minions?
I've given several opinions and thoughts about this very subject in this thread, but you haven't read/responded to them. :/
Is any part of that post helpful to getting your point across now?

I purchased the game you described and spent 20 hours playing it to try to figure out what you were getting at.

Okay. I'm deleting those posts since they're off the topic then. Let's get back to productive discussion.
The books are much better reference, but they're a lot darker, just head's up.
And minions weren't great power-wise until you got the chain-gunner and the lightning dude, but they had hilarious lines and shenanigans. Once you got the last two darklings, it became the three of you rolling through enemies with you using the lightning bro for wiping out lights and using chain-gunner to cover doors.
But personality was the major point for me
That was how I wanted it to feel. Me & my posse. However they would just randomly die and get lost. The lightning bro wouldn't even kill lights unless i pressed square on a light.
what i'm getting from this is his E can move a ghoul to a position where they can extend Yoricks influence on the lane, but in return make them vulnerable, how i'd like to see it be would be
E: Spooky stuff - Yorick commands one of his ghouls to move to a target location and remain there stationary granting vision (think Zeds shadow) when yorick casts abilities The ghouls cast the same ability at reduced damage (so undertakers Rite is like Zeds shadow slash but with more then just one clone and his corpse rot move makes the ghouls apply a slowing field around them, unless you choose to make them go all suicide bomber for burst damage)
Yorick can cast Spooky stuff on himself to recall the ghouls (a little forgiving incase you're against a 2v1 lane or a ranged top or something)
Is them moving there smoothly important? Or should he chuck them through the air with his shovel, Maokai style?
Less Maokai-style underhanded toss, more straight-line "Fastball Special", if you're going with this. SRSLY.

... this is perfect. He swings and punts a ghoul in a line with his shovel. KA-THUNK. Flying ghoul.

If no ghoul is available, he flings a clod of dirt instead. Clods of dirt blow up on impact. Ghouls pass through targets.
This sounds wonderful. It also reinforces the whole idea that the ghouls are simply tools to Yorick, not buddies, and I think that is a good thing.
They can still be buddies. They're just reckless, abusive buddies who don't care what happens since they're all undead.
Xelnath? Just hoping you'll click this and read my post. Would love to see a response.
I already read through it. It's based on an old iteration of Yorick so it's not particularly relevant to the discussion now. Plenty of smart points I agreed with.

As a Yorick player, Yorick to me feels like a Lord of Ghoul. I almost want himself to be a giant ghoul leading a group of small cute ghouls. lol

Okay, here's the latest spin.

Q) - Used for melee combat and wave clearing, or proxy harassment via distant ghouls.
W) - Used for catching enemies and sub-tower sieging
E) - Used for escaping or catching an enemy unawares. A little bit of hard CC.

R) - Used for awesome swarmy moments.

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I still think he needs a gap closer. Now that the E is changed, how does he actually hit anyone?
He snares people with W then runs up to them. Same as on live.
You don't own him or play him and you think he is useless, based on personal experience right, wow, and Xelnath will value your opinion more over someone like me, someone who owns him, uses him on a daily basis, and is my main in ranked.
This is not a rework, every idea so far is to completely change Yorick, make a new champion instead. Yorick is fine, it's the players that don't know how to use him late game, nothing wrong with the champion.
Actually, dude, I respect him for his opinion. I do not respect your sense of entitlement to tell other people how to behave. Please take 20 minutes and chill.
So for the E, by flee do you mean they're feared? Or they run directly away from Yorick? Cuz that seems counterproductive in a lot of situations
I was thinking they would flee from the ghoul. "Spooky ghoul! Aaah! Run away!"
The thing is though, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what a Yorick player would want. If I'm Yorick and I hit a skillshot that runs him away from me, I'm pissed haha.
Now... if I hit him and the ghoul possessed him and walked him TOWARDS me... well then we're talking.
Seems too much like Ahri's charm. Maybe it should just root the targets struck.
Yorick isn't supposed to be silly.
I dunno about that. He's a hunchback with a shovel who spawns Disney cartoon characters.
Why not do Terror instead of Fear? That way Yorick could be rewarded by positioning the spell well. Place Ghoul behind enemy, enemy is now running to Yorick, like how Hecarim's ult works. It also lets him choose to push enemies away.
So rather than applying the fear when it hits the target, it AoE terrors from wherever it stops?

That could work, but players usually complain about ground targetted AoE effects, like Fizz R. Heard more than a few requests to have fizz R always travel to max distance unless it hits a champion.

It's a little different with a clutch ultimate. Still, I would agree with the hombre who thought it was questionable to have people trade between blind and fear when someone might want blind (say, in a to-the-death fight, a situation where having more ghouls is supposed to be a good thing).

Hard CC might just be a really bad idea on a fighter in general. See Elise, Jarvan IV, etc.
He should have some entitlement as he bought the champ and you are completely taking it away form him, even it is necessary. You should respect the people who still love the current feel
This latest build looks good, but for the love of god change the tooltip to say the souls come from the shovel not the lantern as the lore says he gets his powers from the shovel
He is allow to feel entitled to his opinion. He is not allowed to tell someone else off because of it. That's not useful here.

I like the connection between lanterns and souls. Kind of gives him a relationship with Mordekaiser and Thresh.
Exactly, it's absurd and Xelnath seems to just graze over every opposition with: "Oh well that's not good enough for Yorick, The Necromancer." As if that's his ****ing new name.
It's not cool, it's not going to be cool, and it's going to make a lot of people angry.
Why does Xerath get to stay the same and Yorick doesn't?
Oh wait, because that's what reworks are supposed to be.
Look, I get your frustration. You're scared it won't be something you like.

Please keep the emotions in check. I know from your previous posts you're more levelheaded than the kind of person who needs to resort to such arguments.
since when is [almost] copying another hero's ability a problem?
There's a fair argument to be made for possession on Yorick's ghostly kit. The longer I think about a strong auto-attack champion, the less I like the idea of a hard CC on them.

Darius is practically built around his E and it is extremely powerful.
I think we've got too bogged down in the CC iteration of E. Yorick seems suited to simply wail on folks due to a relative MS advantage (strong W slow) - so isn't more just a redundancy?
Keep the Dirt/Ghoul toss; with the ghoul augmentation being a low-level sustain mechanic. Skillshot based; avoiding the 'infinite no-risk sustain.'
Yeah, maybe that's the way to go here. E Ghoul returns to yorick after X seconds, restoring 50% of the total damage he dealt.

If you kill the ghoul before it returns, you prevent his sustain.
I do agree with you that he was out of line, I just thought your retort to his common seemed kind of like us people who liked the old yorick and wanted his spirit there were being unreasonable. I understand that you want to add your own vision to this but please keep the original spirit of the champ (a fearless zombie general leading spirits into the fray of battle)
Like the lantern thing, it may seem cool but the shovel fits much better with his personality and lore and makes him not feel like a copy of tresh
I really hope you see this to understand our side of things. Its not us not wanting change, we just dont want to lose an old favorite entirely
Understood. To clarify, it has nothing to do with the opinion on the rework. It has to do with how he attacked that other poor player who got scared off from posting again.

People can say whatever they want to me. Hate on me, love me, demonize me. However, he doesn't get to attack other players in my threads for wanting to share their opinion.

More on Jayce

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

If I want to go top lane Lulu then I should be able to go top lane Lulu regardless of what anyone thinks.
Top lane Lulu is not obnoxious because it breaks the meta. Top lane Lulu isn't fun because Solo Lulu isn't particularly fun to fight against in her current state.

I know that single-handedly stomping your opponent with zero counterplay is fun to a certain extent because you have absolutely crushed them with no response. However, that's not particularly engaging for anyone besides you - nor is it an actual matchup. It's just Lulu stomping someone else because she's so dedicated anti-engage + poke.

You don't get to ignore the laning phase by simply picking a hard-counter and you certainly don't get to automatically win laning phase because you chose a character who has zero solo lane gameplay. That's not part of our ideals.

When you do things that take that from me it makes the game less fun.
We can't optimize for one person's fun at the expense of the game's gameplay.

Some characters *are* fun to fight against in multiple lanes and so that's fine. Zyra, for example, is interesting and tolerable to fight in mid, bot or even jungle. Hell, Fiddlesticks is tolerable to fight against in most lanes.

Lulu is not one of these characters. AP Soraka is not one of these characters.

Ok thanks for the clarification. Also, isn't that what SOTD does? Give three super charged shots and pray you kill someone, or else you just spent 2000 gold on nothing.
It's a little different in the case of SoTD as it gives you 3 guaranteed critical strikes. The play pattern of blow up a guy and hope you get out is a similar pattern - it just takes out a portion of the randomness in critical strikes by making it guaranteed for a window.

However, the IE crit Jayce build is much worse because its also extremely random for a long time - a % chance to deal 350% damage. If you roll 2 crits instead of 1, you absolutely murder them.

Additionally, if you haven't noticed - SoTD isn't exactly a success. XD
We're not asking you to nerf Manamune to destroy Jayce's only viable build, but instead because it would allow you to shift this power to other areas of his gameplay which are healthier for the game. Take his power from this Manamune/tear-focused gameplay and put this power elsewhere in his kit. Make him use his entire kit; make him able to be built bruiser effectively.
You can do this regardless of whether or not Manamune is powerful or not. Nerfing Muramana doesn't allow you to do anything more except raw buffs to everywhere on his kit.

What causes a Manamune build to be powerful? High AD ratios - the necessity to spam high mana costs spells on a relatively low cooldown - the ability to apply a ton of single target hits quickly and a focus/synergy on a single type of damage.

While nerfing Muramana might be a good call in the future - you don't actually need to nerf the ability to actually do any of the changes mentioned in shifting power from parts of his kit to other parts of his kit - the power level of Muramana doesn't actually impede your ability to shift power into things that aren't synergistic with those attributes.

Look at the complete set of changes: Increased mp/5, lowered mana cost on offensive bruiser abilities, higher base values, lowered AD ratios, a focus on a bit more magic damage, a loss of % armor reduction, removing 'W's stringed case.

Then ask - well, if Muramana was nerfed - could I do more changes? It'd be the exact set of changes regardless.

Ask yourself whether Manamune actually prevents Jayce power from being shifted or if it just prevents Jayce from being straight buffed - because the two aren't the same.

His power curve needs to be reworked so that he doesn't hyperscale (as you have pointed out, but have done nothing to fix as of yet other than removing W priming).
Bruiser Jayce may not be optimal, or up to par overall, but it is viable. Straight damage Jayce is borderline OP atm. I don't personally care about bruiser Jayce. But full damage Jayce, even though his laning isn't particularly amazing, is far too strong overall.
So the changes include lowering his burst AD ratios by 0.7 across the kit, removing 25% of his armor reduction as well as making his AD poke burst damage more dodgable.

So what else is causing full damage Jayce to be powerful / hyperscaling that I'm not addressing?

Because if I removed 0.7 AD ratio on say... Jarvan and removed 25% armor reduction, people would be crying bloody murder about me gutting his late game on any sort of Attack Damage build.
In Jayce's case, how easy would it be to fix his siege-poke problems, even before the E changes, if that sort of activity ran him rapidly dry?
With the existence of blue buff - you can't actually rely on Mana being a meaningful gate later on in the game, regardless of whether items like Manamune or Muramana exists.

In fact, given that Mana itemization exists, Mana mostly serves as an early game gate without being too significant of a late game gate. If you want the inverse scaling (late game gate with zero early game gate) you'd use Energy or Fury instead.

Think about siege-poke in its various forms - is Mana gating actually appropriate for any of these? If powerful siege-poke is gated by Mana - it does nothing to curb the power of siege-poke, simply the duration of the siege. Attacking the reliability / counterplay in siege mode is far better than simply demanding the opponent to weather the storm of 4 or 5 undodgable hits.

Siege-Poke has always been better limited by cooldowns and actual counterplay rather than Mana as it gives windows of opportunity to either counter-poke or the ability to initiate on the enemy because 'outlasting' a high reliability siege has proven to be pretty poor gameplay overall.

As I've said repeatedly - it may still be a good idea to nerf Muramana at the end of the day due to its various power levels - but nerfing Muramana does nothing to solve Jayce's issues - it only nerfs his current FoTM build.

Also, one of the main strengths with bruiser Jayce was his synergy with Sheen items which he got a lot of his damage from, and now Sheen procs don't work with Transform. Comment?
Don't think this will actually affect him that much - mostly because Bruiser Jayce doesn't typically get a chance to autoattack after transforming without using one of his other spells.

There is a case where Bruiser Jayce could get a Sheen proc with only using Transform - but that's Hammer to Gun. He'll definitely lose some power here - but hopefully the Capacitor change mimics this particular chain well enough.
Transform ~> auto attack ~> TTS ~> auto.
Using TTS! when you're in AA range is such a ridiculous large loss of DPS that I should probably retune by scaling the height by the distance travelled - mostly because if you are in AA range - the best candidate is to simply AA again or activate some other skill like Lightning Field.

Transform ~> auto attack ~> Hyper Charge
As for this combo - recall that Sheen has a 2 second cooldown. Hyper Charge won't actually proc Sheen in this instance.

I can see that being a good thing... but if nothing else changes, I'm still going to build tear on him and abuse the bejeebus out of it. If there's no real opportunity cost in my build for buying a tear, why wouldn't I buy it and use it to save a finite resource (health) by expending a now-plentiful one (mana) by consistently tacking on a trailing E to that WRQW?
Obviously this needs further testing - but currently with stretching out his base damage, if you're not buying some sort of sustain or damage component, you can spam all day but not win anything.

But we're debating over a point that is best resolved with testing - especially considering the tear nerfs in 3.9 and the removal of Transform from proc'ing Tear which is why these discussions seem circular, they're a couple of steps removed from actual evidence at the moment.

The magnitude of the nerf on tear is fairly staggering if you knew how it worked under the hood. Moving the charge from 3 to 4 seconds and also making it strictly obey its' charge system causes it to charge dramatically slower on characters who used to be able to fully optimize the charge rate (like Jayce was) - which is why I want to take it slow on this one, especially considering that the Accel Gate changes were also in 3.9.

The full extent of the 3.9 nerfs on Jayce's muramana item path is pretty big - we took away the ability for Muramana to apply a second cleaver proc on hit and additionally increased its charge time for him by roughly 25% overall. While I'm all for decimating things that I dislike - I don't really have enough information on Muramana at the moment to make the right call.

For those of you in the dark, Muramana allowed anyone to stack an additional Black Cleaver proc on every hit. We've since removed this interaction - thus Hyper Charge no longer automatically grants you full stacks in the 3 hits.

As I've said before - it may still be the right call to nerf Muramana at this point but the power level of Muramana shouldn't stop the power shift changes in the first place because it doesn't actually make these changes any harder to do - it just means that there might be a potential abuse case with it still - but that still doesn't change what changes you should make.

Free Transfers to the Russian Server Available!

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)


We’re excited to announce a new promotion featuring free transfers to the Russian/CIS server. A ton of you asked us to re-open the transfer window since you didn’t get a chance to switch over during the initial period. Now you’ll be able to head to the Russian server from NA, EUW and EUNE and still nab your Bear Cavalry Sejuani when she’s released.

Just like last time, to transfer go to the “Other” tab in the Store and select the Transfer to Russia item. Remember, that if you want to shift back, the regular price is 2600 RP.

The promotion will last until the release of the 3.10 patch. We’ll let you know as soon as we have the exact date. We look forward to battling alongside you on the new server!

Champion & skin sale: 7.16 - 7.19

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Give your champions a new look with these skins, on sale for a limited time:

  • Dark Crystal Ryze 487 RP



  • Forsaken Olaf 260 RP


Add these champions to your roster, on sale for a limited time:





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