Important: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 7/16/2013 - Shop Sellback, Udyr Recall and Death Animations, and More
Important: Spirit Guard Udyr Login Screen and Music - You Get To Select Your Login Screen
Super Important: SGU has been released for EU
Reign of Gaming Summoner Verification and Gold+ Forum, RP Giveaway!
A lot of news was posted rather fast, so some might have missed this. Check out the post here for information about both things! Winners will be selected on Friday.
Originally Posted by Riot (View Twitter Source)@Zerglinator that's actually happening. Jayce, Olaf, and Karma are probably going to be 3.11 #gg
Xypherous on Jayce
Since we have to finalize the goals for the patch soon - the Jayce rework won't make it on the docket for the next incoming patch as we're starting to really double down on some testing on this and other reworks. Thanks for everyone whose stopped by and contributed to the post - I'll reopen this to restart testing again on the PBE after we ship the next patch.
Another Yorick Kit
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Update Logic:
* Shovels are cool
* Hard CC on bruisers is not a good idea
* Some healing in lane is fine if the enemy can counter it
* Shovels are still cool.
Also like how you listened about the shovel but from a game play aspect i have a few concerns that would drastically change peoples opinions of this1. They attack nearby units. If Yorick runs away, they disengage and follow him.
1: Do the ghouls attack or are they just stand there until they are used
2: Are the ghouls controllable or are they just ammo: can i send them in to harass the enemy?
3: How does the health decay in the proposed plan work? Do they all lose health at once or is it the older ones first so one by one or do they all take it at once. I think the best way for this would follow as such: Have 3 spawns a fourth so the 1st one out starts to rapidly lose heath, you have 3 and then get 5 the first and second start rapidly losing health
4: How fast will the health drain be? Not looking for any specific numbers whetehr or not it will be faster then they will die naturally
5: In all the proposed kits its suggested that the ghouls take damage for him, does this mean that the more ghouls he has out the less damge he takes (as in 10% per ghoul) or that the ghouls will take less damage (as in 10% of the damage spread out over multiple ghouls)
6: Lastly any AoE resistance on the Ghouls? If not prepare for Karthus to wreck your day
I think these are the questions people are having about this most current incarnation of your plan
2. When you press Q ghouls will "stick" to the units they are attacking for another 2 sec.
3. The lowest health ones lose 10% hp per second. I guess. I have no idea yet.
4. Don't know. Don't care yet. It's a feel thing.
5. Could be 10/15/20% of all damage you take is shared or 5-10% per ghoul out. No idea yet. He should be harder to kill when all of his ghouls are out and alive.
6. 20% aoe reduction is standard on minion champions.A concern I'm having with the ghouls losing life and absorbing damage for Yorick is, which ghouls lose life over time? Example: If Yorick has 3 ghouls that have been taking damage for him for a while and then he gets a 4th one, does one of the original 3 start dieing off? Or is it going to be the one he just summoned?Yeah, that's fair. While "Ghoul Army" mode is active (5 sec) the ghouls don't start losing hp.
Also can we have the ult give a small bit of time where the ghouls don't start losing HP, or at least don't start decaying?Could Yorick's R have a short duration root as scrabbling hands claw their way out of the earth at their victims' feet? Maybe 0.5 seconds. I'm reminded of redeads from OoT and really like the idea of being paralyzed with fear.Possibly. Its likely the army that Yorick conjures with R will be some form of unique units, rather than Ghouls. I'm just leaving them ghouls for now to see how that feels.i want to ask is it 10% reduced dmg per ghoul? or just as long as you have a ghoul? i think there should be a reward to have more ghouls then just one on you at all timesAt 10% of his AD per ghoul, +50% AD damage is already massive. He doesn't need more.
And for his E, can he have more then one ghoul off him at a time? so that he can play for a balance between ghouls protecting him vs having a range of influence on the lane (think zyra plants that mimick his abilities)
and i had an idea about his ultimate, but i want to ask 1st, does this little Calvary of the undead act like Viktors and Annies ults? or are they 5 seperate ghouls with 5 seperate health bars? and while the 5 ghouls attacking one guy would be cool and rewarding to the playstyle i imagine in a 1v1 situation it doesn't feel like it'd work or provide anything to teamfights (something this yorick feels lacking in, is a strong team fight presence as his ghouls are still weak to aoe and range coming from all enemy sources)
the thin i imagine when i think of yoricks ultimate is a swarm of the undead, which is rough to do since it makes overwhelming the enemy team to easy but i think it'd be cool if yorick could reach that zombie swarm potential in a team fight and he gets stronger during the fight if it goes his way,
heres my idea:
Embrace the Inevitable: opens a grave in the earth summoning 5 ghouls at a target location. You can click this ability to move and attack with the horde, yorick gains bonus AD while the ghouls are active (think his old passive but only for R ghouls) if and enemy chsmpion being Targeted by Embrace the Inevitable dies refresh the ghouls life span and Yorick spawns more ghouls (1-3)
This way Yorick in team fights can overwhelm his enemy with an undead legion, but not right away, so there's no "i press R now i can win the team fight for my team fear my zombies" but Yorick will grow to become a problem in the fight if not handled properly and it provides plenty of counter play since the ghouls rush is dependent on his R ghouls, i dunno i just thought it'd be a cool idea, Yorick is a necromancer all and all and Every necromancer should have some scary as summon move, and Zombies, zombies are notorious for spreading and devouring, and i'd like to see that element thrown into the new Yorick.I get the opposite impression from it. Imagine it this way: A 1v1 all in fight starts. Your ghouls tanks some of the damage from the enemy's initial burst. You have 3 ghouls out, and then you ult. Now you have 8(3 + 5 for ult). You order all the ghouls to attack your opponent, and then E, blinding them, reducing a lot of follow up damage you'd take. You then Q, doing 9 times it's face damage (1 for you, 8 for the ghouls you already had out). Now you W, doing 9-10 (If you killed a minion with Q you get another ghoul) times it's face damage since you're casting w right on top of the ghouls, and they're already in range of an enemy. Don't forget your ghouls were attacking for a percentage of your AD the entire time. Using the numbers from Xelnath's last screenshot, that's 175 + 141 (E) + 9 * (150 + 141) (Q) + 10 * (220 + 39) (W) for a total of 5525 damage burst without counting Autos from you or the ghouls. Did I mention that all but 300 of that is AoE? This seems a bit over powered to me.Oh. Assume the cleave damage is based on the attacker's melee damage plus a flat bonus. So ghoul cleaves would be weaker than Yorick's.
Maybe with some mechanics similar to Zed Q(less damage from the second+ strike) added in, Q could be balanced. I don't see any way to make this feel good to both Yorick players and enemies without that. The biggest problem I see is with W. Even without ult, you have an ultimate level ability that would be hard to scale down. His Q can easily be mitigated by reducing damage for multiple hits, but W would just seem underwhelming to have all of your ghouls explode and not see much of an increase in damage from 1 ghoul. For example, if you do 70% on subsequent hits, you still get 259 (initial) + 259 (First ghoul) + 363 (Other two ghouls) for a total of 880 damage from a non ult ability with a relatively short CD (Q a couple of times to get ghouls back, rinse, repeat). W would have to have an extremely low subsequent hit percentage to not feel OP to the enemy. If W is scaled that way, then you'll probably not see many yorick all ins because you get so much more damage from tossing a ghoul with E then Q, W. It would also ruin the feel of his ult. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground between (to use Xelnath's analog) banelings vs marines and banelings vs Thor. Marines melt, but Thor just don't care.
TL;DR: I foresee problems with the newest kit's W. I don't see any way to balance it that makes it feel good to both players and opponents. I wish I had a suggestion to offer for it, but I'm better at breaking things than fixing them. XD
So I'm imagining all ghouls work like this:
Spawn as blue ghouls. Blue ghouls are guardian ghouls and reduce damage you take each.
W turns ghouls into green kamikaze baneling ghouls. More fragile, but blow up on death.
E turns ghouls into red lifesteal ghouls.
R spawns a bunch of blue ghouls.he said he was moving away from a bruiser type charicter becouse we have 50 of those right now, and a ult should have impact. I like they idea of being able to toss my ghouls then make them explode ( hope the ghouls have some cool animations when blowing up) or calling them back to heal in my opinion this build has the most inter actions with yoricks ghouls then any other build thus far. you could even press q (cleave) to make them stick to people after tossing themIt sounds like its time for a refresher post on our goals and direction.
What is Yorick on live?
Yorick is a melee bruiser/fighter who summons ghouls which provide collateral damage. His hallmark qualities are uncounterable lifesteal sustain and the ability to allow an ally to fightfor an extended period of time when they should die.
What are the major problems with Yorick?
From listening to the post in this thread and confirming it with our own experiences and design insights, Yorick feels like an counterless champion. His ghouls provide an illusion of counterplay which punishes you heavily if you actual kill them. His kit is heavily propped up by unpreventable lifesteal/sustain. Finally, his ultimate is a cluster**** of unoptimizable use cases, highly unsatisfying in terms of both personal use, except in ambushe cases and drains an immense amount of power due to its ability to clone an allied ADC.
Where are we taking Yorick?
Yorick is going to be a melee champion, who commands minions as a ranged extension of his power and influence. He can command those minions to move, attack and create opportunities for him. Yorick will be a tough champion who attacks opponents with his shovel, but is primarily about using his minions to influence the battle and heal himself.
What are we explicitly removing?
Yorick should not feel like a brick wall in lane. Due to the disposable damage his minions bring, he cannot get free health without being at risk. Similarly, where possible, we're removing invisible power from Yorick, instead preferring bonus mechanics or visible effects created by his ghouls.
What should Yorick gain out of these changes?
Yorick should be a unique style of play that centers around manipulating and using disposable units. This should allow him to have stronger "high" moments along with clearer windows of vulnerability where he needs to play defensively. While none of these kits are final, the hope is that Yorick can provide a form of fighter that can opt to play safely from a distance, creating windows of opportunity where his allies can capitalize or play a riskier close-range style where ghouls provide extra damage and all-in capabilities.
Will you actually be able to do all of this?
Possibly not. It won't happen right away, and its possible we may change these goals as development continues. This is the nature of development. Your goals, decisions and iterations change rapidly.
What I will guarantee is that I'll do my best to see that a year from now, the uncounterable, frustrating, infinitely-sustaining Yorick character will be a relic of the past and a frightening gravedigger leading a squad of the undead into the fray replaces him.
Warwick Info Coming Soon
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)OK, got the info today (things are crazy here right now!) and I will actually break this down a little later tonight. Thanks for your patience!
Xypherous on Master Yi
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)% armor penetration defeats the intended purpose of Wuju Style: to give him a way to duel one person when things are dire.
Whereas % armor penetration enables him to ignore the resistances of a team - building armor in this case should prevent a lot of splash damage from Yi from being able to hurt you.
While I'd hate to admit it - % armor penetration is just a stronger late game statistic than true damage so the end result of this change is simply a Yi that is even more unstoppable late game, which, quite frankly - is not something that he needs at the moment.What is the intended purpose of the new Yi? To be a melee ADC? Because I feel that with the true damage, most people will simply build him as a simple tank with a lot of AS to still do tons of damage.Potentially I suppose - as I understand it, given that the true damage scales with AD - you're going to do terrible damage without AD.
Solcrushed is doing the vast majority of the legwork on his tuning and specific statistics - so I don't have full context.
More on Rengar
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Of all things, I just wish bonetooth didn't give so much free attack damage. Makes it fairly cost effective even if Rengar isn't stacking too well.We are looking into the power of Bone Tooth Necklace and we will appropriately scale it back to reflect the cooler game play mechanics we intend to attach to it.
Though there is concern that having this kind of stacking/snowball mechanic on Rengar creates a "feast or famine" play pattern, we intend to make Bone Tooth Necklace an item that really accentuates the predator play style of Rengar and not necessarily something that is core for him to function. That being said we want to make Bone Tooth a very attractive option that most Rengar players will feel good about buying despite being behind or ahead.
Getting kills and assists is inevitable in every game and I hope to make Bone Tooth more attractive by giving it more utility on lesser amounts of stacks that help Rengar execute his play pattern of stalker and predator.Honestly, Its total AD to me isnt much early on, but as you go in late game, I think maybe scale it a bit better with levels to it flows better.Let me clarify:
I honestly love Rengars kit ( I ply him alot) I understand turning him into a duelist but wasnt the point of him an assasin?
Kha'zix and Rengar were suppossed to be two assasins.
So if changing rengar from an assasin to a duelist it feels he loses that niche to me.
Bonetooth is very good. I like the flat Movement speed. It means I can focus on something else instead of level 2 boots instantly
As for the AD stats, i dont think they are that differential.
This is all my opinion though.
I dont mind changes to his kit to change him around form an instagib. But really changing his kit into more of a rework, I feel id lose the way his kit is. I really enjoy the basis of his abilities not regarding the tweaks that need to be done. Same with Bonetooth. I love the concept. I just dont want it too nerfed. Viktor has his item that scaled alot higher then rengars granted he is a mage.
Not to throw a negative spin but if he gets too reworked Id probably want to refund him.
ID prefer not to change the way he plays or his role too much. Assasins are still very few, we dont really need more Bruiser/Duelists.
Currently Rengar functions/"performs greatest" as an Assasin/Split pusher. This leads to an incredibly disjointed play pattern as an average game progresses because his kit only offers him one avenue of getting into a late game team fight away from the jungle, his ultimate.
Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.
The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.
With that out of the way, we don't necessarily want to make Rengar into a champion like Renekton(who still has pretty decent burst damage at level 2 mind you) but we do feel his current burst potential, especially at earlier levels is simply too high. It does not take a lot of number crunching to notice that Rengar's mindless level 2 burst combo can deal ~60-70% of the average level 2 champions health pool.
The fact is, on a kit with reset mechanics like Rengar, burst will always exist early on and the challenge for us is to tune it into something healthy/balanced/counter-playable. You should rest easy, Rengar will always be able to knife-cat surprise stab people at stages of the game, we just want to make sure your knife-catting experience isn't unfair or too limiting in later stages of the game.
TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."
Just updated the OP with the changes that are currently testing. Numbers excluded as they're subject to change.
Tried an iteration where Savagery, in lieu of Attack Speed instead awarded a bonus point of Ferocity to Rengar when he used it on targets below 50% health. I liked how it played out, but wasn't noticeable enough and in most cases it was just 'Rengar is getting more 5 points than usual for doing things he'd do anyways' - i'd like to see some form of this return somewhere on the Bonetooth if at all possible, and we're investigating cool ways to make that happen.
All of his Ferocity Effects not minding what you were previously leveling has made some cool cases in lane where you'll max W/E but still choose Q - whereas on Live it's just 'what is the thing i am leveling? Doublecast that for crazy spike damage' - in response we've upped the damage on these abilities to make them singularly better for their regular use-cases.
W's current iteration is trying something i heard from forumgoers the last time Classick was discussing his changes that also helps him jungle. My vision for Battle Roar if it needs to have a defensive component is to make it less good against every thing and give it a distinct use-case. Currently running with Doran's shield passive for all Physical Damage. This makes him much more susceptible to magic damage and mage CC + Burst combos, but keeps him strong vs those carries he loves to chew on, as well as keeping those jungle mobs honest. I'm not super attached to it, but it's definitely fulfilling my goals as of now.
R's runspeed being upped right now really allows it to be used for strategic set ups, but is probably stronger than a character like this needs at rank 1. While revealing him earlier might sound like a super nerf, in practice it's shown that it's not actually enough to stop people from feeling totally jumped. The VO playing when he ults though has been testing -very- well both as/against and really strikes fear into enemies. What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?
Anyways, i've gotten a lot of good ideas from you guys tonight that i want to think on. I'm not gonna pass out just yet so i'll be around for a bit longer, but my Safari Zone timer's runnin' outThe w is also a bad nerf. Mages don't instadie like adcs. They will just cc him and easily kill him without that mr buff.You might be right - that's why i'm just testing it for now. It could be Magical Damage Reduction, or not any flat DR at all. Armor/Mr is not only very invisibly powerful, but is universally good against everyone which is why in Rengar's case it's been nerfed pretty heavily. If there's a defensive steroid that functions far better in some situations than others, then it starts to create a set of tradeoffs that offer more tuning points down the line.
Mages cc'ing him and easily killing him in this current iteration is a tradeoff to him soaking up the damage from AD's. Might need to be the other way around - might not need to be defensive at all - but for as long as it's going to be a 'one-use fits all' flat mitigation stat buff, it can't be very powerful. I'd like to continue to explore options to try and give Rengar players a sense of 'that was the perfect time to Battle Roar and i feel appropriately rewarded for using it' instead of 'use this on CD because it doesn't matter what situation i'm in, Armor/MR has it covered'
EDIT: Because i've seen some people mention it - nowhere have i said Rengar is losing his heal. Just that the damage it's dealing (Along with Bola Strike and Savagery) are going to be based off of Rengar's Champion Level, and not by skill rank. I didn't include the heal because we already made that change to it months ago.Bonetooth Necklace: How about, having it build out of Hunter's Machete?
In one way, that would restrict his game play (unable to rush it in lane). In the other way, it would open him up for a better jungle experience, really playing into his thematic...
...No promises. But this sounds really, really cool.-snip-Rengar's abilites are still going to be decided by skill rank - the ferocity bonuses, however, will not be. This is to avoid you just doublecasting whatever you currently have more points in (like the 480 + 1.4 AD Ratio Bola Spam) and focus more on the decision point of the Ferocity bonuses themselves.
And with that, i'm out for the night. I stayed up as long as i could friends, i'll be back in the morning
The Wild Scarizard fled!
Placeholder to post things about Rengar based on discussions i've had today with Wav3 and some of the Live team. Currently on page 36 of 50.
Trying to balance catching up on posts and doing actual work - a few points:
1. Please remember that the changes to Q are in testing, and that the lack of an effect on Q is placeholder. It might be returned to %AS on Q and ??? on Q2. Previously we had 'If Savagery strikes a champion below 50% life, gain an additional ferocity point' which we had some pros and cons. When judging the changes understand that the goal is to lower the burst potential of these two spells and that shifting them into tools for sustained damage is a win for Rengar's balance overall - but i don't intend to leave either part of this skill bare.
2. Some people seem to like the counterplay we're introducing to his ultimate, and some of you don't. I'm open to suggestions here - but Rengar sorely needs more counterplay on this skill for it to retain the strength it has, let alone gain more. Give me your thoughts on how'd you like to see this done.
Gonna go grab some food, but i'm at least caught up on this threads' posts.How much counterplay is enough but not too much, though?One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.
If you just gave it a global VO or something, alerting everyone in the match that he's using his ult, is that enough counterplay? Because putting little particle effects over the heads of the people nearby him feels like too much. What's the point of going into Stealth if the people he's hunting are explicitly told he's nearby and hunting them?
And I really don't think the stealth should go away, because it really helps him with ganks.
I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.
Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.
On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?On another note tell us how the hell this is a buff to his ult?I'm unaware that a 5 second increase in stealth duration, a massive increase in vision range, 20% increase in movement speed and a lower cooldown were not buffs o.o? If they're not enough compensation for the counterplay we introduce, they're just numbers - and can always be tuned. Rengar could move faster and stealth longer - but the amount of the counterplay that exists on live for this spell is unacceptable if our goal is to balance rengar.
How would that work for non-classic maps such as Dominion that don't get access to Machete?I believe we can special-case items for multiple map modes. Tear/Manamune/Archangel's Staff have different versions of them on Dom/TT, so i imagine we could enable something like that.
So there seems to be some confusion and misinterpretation with our intentions on Rengar.
From my 2nd post:
Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your squishy and die right after/I can only kill your squishy and am useless to my team if I fail."
We are not going to destroy his burst nor are we tuning him into a tanky bruiser. You will still be able to knife cat ambush people, but once again, the challenge for us is to make that pattern healthy, fun and balanced. This undoubtedly means we have to take some power away from his burst, whether its damage or execution speed. At the same time, we are also able to use the room created by this change to give him cooler effects that won't force Rengar into his current "if I fail to kill someone squishy on my first Leap from Ult, I am useless" and "suicide dive bomb/kamikaze" play pattern.
As a final thought, I would just like to stress this point again: burst damage on a long duration true stealth character with no counter play, no warning, and no window to react is not okay. It is not fun to play against, it is not healthy for our game and it completely warps the game for enemy players. This pattern's existence in its current form on Rengar's kit limits our ability to make this character healthy and that is why it has to go. With it gone we have the room to make him into the true predator and hunter who doesn't just jump in and die after taking down his prized prey.Nocturne ult isn't Global either.... I have a feeling you're not listening all that well to what a lot of people have been saying. Having a global notification that Rengar is stealthed gives me people warning that he most likely going to jump on somebody, and if you happen to be that person who's overextended/in a bad spot, you better prepare for that. I fail to see how that would be a bad thing. It accomplishes the wanted effect of notifying everyone and at the same time, doesn't let the one person you're actually going for be like, oh he's after me, better back out of this.Nocturne's Paranoia is global - you remove vision from every member of the enemy team with a button. That's a global. What i'm talking about is changing Rengar's vision range from 2/3/4k per rank of ultimate to 4-5k so that it still has an extremely wide threat radius, similar to champions like Ziggs or Lux in their influence range.
In the current iteration of his ult, how far can Rengar effectively travel to track down a target? Can he exceed the range of his ult from where he cast it? And if do, do enemies hear the VO once they get into the range of it?Pretty far - Rengar's vision range originates from his body, so it's impossible for him to ever activate it and exceed his own vision range. Currently, people only hear VO if they are within his champion sight radius (around 1k or so) when he activates the ultimate. If he activates the ultimate while he's 'on his way' the opponent won't hear his VO play - but would see the particle above their head once he reached the appropriate range.
Leave him. Nothing wrong with triple Q; it's fair to reward someone for actually playing the game well.I'd like to address this. Triple Q with Rengar isn't like Zed landing double Razor Shurikens or Lulu Glitterlancing multiple people, or even like Kha'Zix leaping perfectly for a multi-kill. Once you know how to do it, you know how to do it.
Triple Q'ing isn't what makes Rengar rengar. Stalking prey, making decisions on which Ferocity Bonus to use for the right situation, leaping out of brush and killing someone, or flanking and jumping someone for an allied takedown? Those are things that make Rengar who he is. You're all right that this was intended functionality when it was put in the game - but even Classick agrees that it was also a mistake. Frontloading 500% of your AD in less than a second on a target of your choosing when no one can see you coming is just not something that's okay.
I want him to kill people - Rengar's a damage dealer and that's what he does. I would just like him to kill people over 5 or 6 seconds than 1 to 2.
I want him to inspire fear into his opponents. I don't want him to inspire rage.
So i lied earlier when i said i was going to get food - i've just been reading posts and trying to respond.
Had a good talk with OnlyRengar, got a couple of ideas as well as getting some from the thread. I'm going to Tenerife, Spain for a few days starting Thursday morning with a group of Rioters for the EU Pro Player Conference, but Wav3break will be here manning the thread and updating you on our iterations.
For those of you who don't like the changes, i still thank you for your feedback. I don't want to ruin Rengar. I just want him to be more healthy for the game as a whole with appropriate counterplay so that he can be a generally better experience for our game.
Gonna go grab that food now - i might poke around later on before i pass out. Thanks again for the feedback, friends.
[Next PBE Push] Improvement to missiles fired from Fog of War!
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Do you like getting hit by invisible Nidalee's spears?
I don't like getting hit by invisible Nidalee's spears.
In the next PBE push (Sometime after 7/17/2013), you may notice a slight change to skillshot missiles fired from Fog of War.
Specifically, if a missile is moving towards you, Fog of War won't hide it when it's close to you. The intent is that you should always have some warning when you're going to be nailed by a missile. It won't be as much warning as you'd get if you could see the enemy, though.
We're not quite done with this feature, so feedback is welcome. Here's roughly how it should work:
If you're standing behind the baron pit and nidalee throws a spear from where Baron spawns, towards you, you should see it before it hits you. If she throws it towards river, you see no warning about the spear at all. Similarly, if she throws it towards mid or top lane, places you can't see, you won't see the spear either.
The hope here is that we reduce the number of scenarios where players take damage without understanding why it occurred.Roughly how many units are you guys planning to go with this concerning earliest signs of detection?It's more about the amount of time you have to dodge than the units. Probably about a half second to a second of warning time.
If it's any skillshot that's approaching the champion, I would imagine certain things would be detected earlier than others depending on their projectile speed.
As always, we monitor the play and win rates of champions after systemic changes looking for surges in win/loss power.Is the idea here to give players a chance to DODGE the nid spear or just a heads up that they got hit with the nid spear? S:Both.
Update on Olaf
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Guess I should've made it clear that I would be gone all weekend when I mentioned I was going to Evo. Sorry for the delay on updates.
Just gonna rapid fire my thoughts to you guys so you know what's going on, but I honestly don't have enough time for a lot of back and forth until later in the week.
Undertow- Min Range- Overall confident in the change- Slow Decay
- Distance currently tuned at 400 (pickup radius is 250, cast ranges are measured for the center of a character so Olaf is currently walking under 100 units to retrieve min range axes)- Confident in the change- Wall Sticking
- Unlikely to change slow values until I'm confident in larger scale changes and am at the phase where it's time to do balance tuning- Unconfident in the change
- Testing feedback has been inconsistent
- More experienced Olafs dislike it more than newer Olafs, laners dislike it more than junglers
- Planning on trying an iteration where wall sticking only occurs if the axe would land inside impassible terrain, essentially trying to keep it as a solution for junglers who rely on the lower min range without disrupting its current use cases
- Going to try lowering axe's vision radius on impact to reduce the ability's scouting power without fully removing the scouting aspects
Vicious Strikes and Ragnarok- AS feels pretty meaningless on Ult, probably getting removed
- AD on Vicious Strikes muddles the use case considerably
- Likely to iterate on Vicious Strikes by removing the spell vamp and AD and replacing with AS of some sort- Undertow scaling off the AD and spell vamp is making the usage of this skill overly confusing- Still trying to figure out what to do with Ragnarok
- Would like to make it clear that this is your berserking steroid, best used in conjunction with Berserker Rage, rather than providing a hodgepodge of stats that are difficult to optimize- Passive Armor/MRes that is cast aside during Ragnarok is conceptually better in terms of defined counterplay and seems well liked by Designers
- However, creates some weird feelings for players with less design context, where they are hesitant to trade off their defensive stats and then go in
- Still trying to find the balance between offering sufficient counterplay to opponents and providing the Olaf player with what they want out of Ragnarok
So I guess the tl;dr is that I'm still not happy with the W/R mechanics and will be shifting those around until I'm happier with their defined use cases and will be trying to find a more intuitive way to accomplish my goals on Undertow.Don't take the bonus AD off of vicious strikes, what makes olaf a strong duelist in AA range is the multiplicative stats granted by the bonus AD from vicious strikes and the AS from his passive. Also if W only increases the bonus AS from your passive, it's useless unless you're at low health. Replacing it with more AS is just a flat out nerf.I specifically don't like that players have a strong natural urge to press W before Qing to get the bonus AD and spell vamp on their axe. This pattern encourages Olaf players to use their strongest auto-attacking steroid before they've closed the distance, which is a fairly large misuse of the ability's power in most situations. I wonder if maybe just taking the spellvamp off is sufficient to make this use case less attractive. I dunno, I'll think on it. I agree that the AD provides better gains for Olaf by accessing the multiplicative scaling and conceptually feels better, but I just don't like the W + Q interaction and how it frequently leads players into a poor skill usage cycle.
Can you say specifically why you are concerned about the interaction between vicious strikes' bonus AD and spellvamp with Q? How about just replacing the spellvamp with some more AD, lifesteal or armpen?
I understand your desire to support Olaf being played as more of an AA based bruiser, but also remember that Olaf's inherent lack of mobility means that, without his ult and ghost, he often gets kited out of AA range and is only be able to hit enemies with Q and E. So, unless you plan on giving him some more mobility, be careful to not nerf ability based Olaf in favor of AA based Olaf.
Tear of the Goddess and you!
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)I have noticed many Summoners thinking there is a problem with Tear of the Goddess, so I am making this post to clear up the confusion! The tooltip for Tear of the Goddess looks like this:
Tear of the Goddess
+7 Mana Regen per 5 seconds
UNIQUE Passive - Mana Charge: Grants +4 maximum Mana (max +750 Mana) for each spell cast and Mana expenditure (occurs up to 2 times every 8 seconds).
There are a few important things to note here. Tear of the Goddess stacks based on a resource system. It can hold a maximum of 2 resources, and it takes 4 seconds to store up another one. Every time you cast a spell, one of the resources is consumed and you gain 4 maximum mana. Think of it like Teemos Noxious Trap (the mushrooms), Akalis Shadow Dance, or Corkis Missile Barrage. Each of these abilities will store up a maximum number of charges and they have a cooldown to create each charge. For Tear of the Goddess that means a maximum of 2 charges on a 4 second cooldown. If at any time you do not have 2 charges on Tear, the cooldown to produce another charge will start. Here is a rundown of how stacking up mana can happen:
Cast a spell at 10:00. Tear of the Goddess will grant 4 maximum mana, and the first charge will be consumed. Tear will generate another charge at 10:04.
Cast a spell at 10:01. Tear of the Goddess will grant another 4 maximum mana. The second and final charge will be consumed.
Cast a spell at 10:02. You will gain no mana as there are currently no more charges.
At 10:04 Tear of the Goddess will have produced another charge. The next charge will be produced at 10:08.
Cast a spell at 10:05. Tear of the Goddess will grant 4 maximum mana. The only remaining charge will be consumed.
Cast a spell at 10:06. You will gain no mana as there are no more charges.
At 10:08 Tear of the Goddess will gain a Charge. Another charge will be available at 10:12.
At 10:12 Tear of the Goddess will have 2 charges. It will no longer produce additional charges.
You can now cast 2 spells back to back and gain 8 maximum mana.
Hopefully this is an informative demonstration of how Tear of the Goddess stacks.
Another important note is that the cooldown indicator (the circular sweep that appears around the icon counting down time until it is available) will ONLY display if there are currently zero charges available on the Tear. The cooldown indicator will then represent the amount of time until a single charge is available. A good way to test this is cast a spell at lets say 1:00. Cast another spell at 1:03. The charges will begin to produce immediately after casting the first spell and become available at 1:04. Since there is a 1 second window (1:03 to 1:04) where you will have no charges, you will see the cooldown indicator sweep around the Tear of the Goddess icon for that 1 second.
The fact that the cooldown indicator only appears when there are no charges explains why it might look like Tear isnt gaining stacks, but if you mouse over the icon, you can see that it is in fact gaining stacks.
I hope this clears up any confusion and if you have any questions, please feel free to post here and ask them. I will update this post to make things clearer if that is necessary!
More on Jayce
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)The on hit damage is a good idea, however it may not encourage jayce to stay in hammer form.The on hit damage should only apply to things that have been damaged by lightning field recently within the last 2 seconds - so if you're just meandering at 500 range with lightning field, you're not going to deal any bonus magic damage in gun form.
I would rather activate Lightning Field then switch back to cannon form to get both the on hit damage and attack range.
My personal feelings on Jayce isn't the damage, it is the fact that he has poke and disengage in the same kit.Attempting to target this via the mana cost on his disengage mechanic at the moment - if your engages cost proportionally less than his disengages, he'll need to fill in the rest of the gap with poke or be aggressive and trade.
Hence the mana tuning - which may still not be tuned appropriately for ranks in 'E' - although ranking up 'E' now is pretty bad.I'm sure that there are additional ideas out there, but the point is that just increasing mana costs doesn't actually solve the problem of Jayce's knockback, especially when building tear is so popular still. Hell, increasing mana costs just makes people build tear more often.A nearly free disengage is almost always going to be broken - unless it's not a disengage to begin with (which is what your suggestions are pushing it towards).
However, the repeatable nature of the disengage is the obnoxious part as the actual power level of the disengage portion of the ability is fairly low already.
By making the disengage spammy and free - there's no cost to making mistakes and no tradeoffs to make in lane - While strategic power isn't as satisfying as most mechanics (as you've pointed out) - you're looking at one use case of the ability rather than the entire laning experience.
The other portion of this is that powerful disengages help even out the binary nature of top lane because if your disengage isn't quite strong enough to do its job, you basically play a game of 'does your engage beat my disengage?' that is matchup dependent rather than playstyle dependent.
Saying that everyone loses is an odd statement - because the alternative is that Jayce simply hard loses certain matchups because he can't actually disengage. Binary laning phases tend to be a worse alternative than one with frequent reset mechanics.What does this make Ezreal?Given that rank 1 Arcane Shift is 19 second cooldown and 90 mana cost - Ezreal is already somewhat gated in lane, arcane shift wise.
Oh - okay, sorry what I said above pertains mostly to lane. Late game fights follow a whole different set of rules.
The nature of bottom lane with a support means that engagements are much less frequent - so this isn't as big of a gate as a comparable CD in top lane though - so you have a point there.Point taken. However, I still feel that increasing mana costs only leads to the issue of pigeonholing Jayce into building tear for most players. Or at least, it wouldn't be a very significant impact considering the dominant way of building Jayce.Given that I've lowered almost every other mana cost on him - it should only be a net increase in Mana Cost if you're spamming Hyper Charge and Thundering Blow!
The vast majority of his combos have been lowered overall - so his mana consumption (assuming an equal reliance on all skills) is down while his spike consumption if focused on some skills should be up.
What if, instead of increasing mana costs, you increase the cooldown time?This could be an option - but 40 mana cost is much too low for Thundering Blow! Ideally, it's probably best to do a mixed solution where the cooldown is much higher earlier and the mana cost is fixed at 80.
At this point, it's looking like internally, there isn't quite enough confidence to ship Jayce with this patch as we probably need some heavy grind on late-game testing (I've been super focused on laning) - so we can go and hammer on it for another week and a half.
With the increased slow on TTS aren't you actually increasing the disengage power jayce has with the m:QE combo? With that level of a slow a knockback could probably be much shorter and still provide its job - I would be worried about any hard engage champions being able to get onto Jayce if they are that slowed and hit by E.Only at rank 6 - which is at level 11 - I'm not sure Jayce's disengage problems kick in that late - they start much much earlier.
Since we have to finalize the goals for the patch soon - the Jayce rework won't make it on the docket for the next incoming patch as we're starting to really double down on some testing on this and other reworks. Thanks for everyone whose stopped by and contributed to the post - I'll reopen this to restart testing again on the PBE after we ship the next patch.
More on Undo in the Item Shop
If you missed today's PBE push, make sure to click the first important link up top.
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)What are the exceptions, so that they can be tested?When you purchase the Homeguard Enchantment it will clear your undo history up to that point and then be undoable itself.Having item history reset on the shop window closing seems a little much. Leaving the shop radius or casting a spell should be enough. What if I close my shop window and then realize I just bought a second pair of boots? There are already enough safeguards put in there to avoid abuse that I think the closing the shop window part is unnecessary.It doesn't clear on close, minor mistake in the original post from a bit of miscommunication.
Other than that, this is a wonderful feature, glad you guys are putting it in.
Had bigbadabruin clear that up.Not Guardian Angel? I seem to remember concerns were voiced about Guardian Angel being an edge case for a resell button.Guardian Angel's cooldown should be remembered and since your undo history clears on receiving damage, that edge case shouldn't exist.
If you do discover an abuse case, make sure you post it here.Just wondering whats this feature interaction with Will of the ancients and other aura items? I mean buy WoTA and ally Karthus then uses ulti...We're currently not handling the WotA case, though we may address it.
This specific situation serves an interesting problem. The system was made so that we could, say, clear your undo history if an ally makes use of your WotA buff. That is super unclear though when it does occur when you're not trying to abuse it. We'll definitely be examining it though.
Or buy a 860 rod before ulti'ing as karthus, then sell it back and save for a NLR.If you deal damage you lose your undo history as well. Nothing to exploit there.
I think it could be an exploit, but it's very situational. By the time Karthus teleport to base (8s), buy a NLR, cast ulti (3s), the enemy is probably healed up by now. And why would you sell back a NLR anyways?My main concerns:Some more important pieces for these gameplay puzzles:
Any influence on other chance with the new item negates its use
- Such as -
Soraka Ult - No damage done but can have a major influence
(As mentioned already) - Grabbing a Wota or Zeke's - Then an ally using an ability
Buying an item - Casting an ult that takes time - EZ, Ashe, etc. - Then Selling before it hits target - Or are the calculations done at the time of the hit as opposed to the time of the sending (I think its the former because of the way TriForce interacts)
Items such as Meja and Occulut can also pose interesting problems
Cast Karthus, Shen, GP, Soraka etc. Ult
Buy Meja - Post all damage done
10 Second window from damage done for assists
Rack up stacks on Meja then sell at the end of the window
Purchase once 20 stacks are achieved
Addendum - Will items such as Meja be able to 'hold' stacks
Everytime I back I buy a tear and rack up a few more points then sell
And I might be an idiot but what is the length of time for this function?
Undo clears on any spell or item usage. It also clears on dealing any damage separately. Ezreal ult, for example, will clear once when cast and then once every time is passes through something.
Most calculations are done on hit, not on cast (except cooldown).
Undo triggers all things that would occur specific to an item as though you sold it. I would need to check each item to be certain, but most items get rid of their benefits on sell (or shortly after). Mejai's should clear itself within 1.2 seconds of undoing or selling.
There is no time limit. Only game events will clear it.