Reign of Gaming

Important: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 7/25/2013
Update: Added New LoL Site annoucment

More on Xerath

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hey Xelnath,
I just wanna say you're doing a great job with the Xerath rework so far.
Is there anything new you'd like to share with the community about Xerath?

Yes, actually. We tried a number of iterations where Xerath could maintain super high range for long periods of time. In all of those iterations, it causes the game to grind to a halt as Xerath was the ultimate defense machine, but couldn't help win the game.

We are now increasing the power of his auto-attack replacer, but condensing the duration into a shorter window, with the intent of reinforcing his role as mid-game mage sniper / late-game damage source, rather than aoe CC character.

In a nutshell, we've kind of come full circle on the kit and we're bringing him back a bit closer to his live playstyle, but with a healthier ultimate that allows for skillful plays on both Xerath and the enemy's part.

I like that post. That's a nice post.
Edit: Out of curiosity, can his AA replacement hit towers?

Nah, there's no skill in a skill that can hit towers without retribution. See Heimerdinger 1.0.

Xypherous on  Jungle Items

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

The main issue with this is that currently laners are poaching jungle camps as early as the second respawn of jungle camps - this would essentially give the junglers a 20 to 30 minion head start on the jungle item souls but the main problem remains as junglers aren't allowed to farm "their" lane for the most part.

Depending on the power level of the upgrades - you might actually encourage laners to poach jungle camps even more in order to optimize the additional gold stream, especially mid/late game.

I like the idea of alternate advancement paths but this one specifically needs to be combined with other measures to make sure that junglers get more jungle monsters if you were to go completely down this route.

As a side note, this is also why we haven't done stuff like: Smite passively gives you more gold on monster kill - because the issue is that Junglers aren't entitled to all the jungle monsters.

As well as I'm sure that a laner wouldn't have much trouble getting to the second jungle camp, how often would they have the ability to put three hundred towards a machete to need the extra benefits?
And how many do laners get in comparison to junglers? I'd be rather distressed if it was more'n a third.

If other measures were needed to make sure that junglers got more jungle creeps.....
Gotta say I know not how one would go about doing that.

And making itemzzzz a lil' bit moar powerful if you get moar jungle creeps doesn't make the jungler entitled to the jungle monsters, does it?

From what we've seen on live, in high-end competitive play - the jungler effectively stops taking camps after the first clear or so - so it ends up being 20 or 30 jungle monsters at most. :x

k, so what about making jungle items specifically synchronize with smite then? As in, if you are using smite, the recipe cost for this item is X, while if you don't have smite the recipe cost is X+Y? Then you can tune in the numbers on the item to be appropriate for junglers, and laners will only want to pick them up if they really use it well (as in well enough to pay an extra Y gold for it)

Agree that that's a possible solution.

However, something to ask yourself is what are the goals you're trying to solve.

If this is an attempt to make really strong items to get around the fact that junglers don't get enough gold - you might want to try tackling the gold problem directly. For example, bolting Avarice's Blades passive onto Smite might be actually more in line.

If this is an attempt to have a special class of items only for junglers - then you'd be looking for ways to bind it to monster souls or camps (at least for a little while).

So it's a question of: Do you want to solve the gold issue by making super cost effective items? Or do you just want to create a super special set of items? These will inform what direction you want to think about for solutions.

just make that charge is losing when we kill CREEP
it'S SO HARD TO DO IT?

This means that the jungler loses out on the ability to kill anything else in the game - like if he needs to clear a wave for mid-lane or hold a tower - or even push a wave out in the later game.

While I understand the sentiment here of looking at what you're killing - unfortunately, the jungler does need to be able to kill lane minions.

But if a laner wants that extra gold (and that is a problem, right) ... they have to give up ignite or flash ... doesn't that return balance?

Oh no - the problem isn't that the laner gets extra gold here. The problem is that the jungler doesn't get to kill jungle mobs - so extra gold on killing jungle monsters doesn't help him because the lanes are poaching all the monsters.

But wouldn't that change if there was more benefit for the jungler farming the jungle creeps?

I'm not sure really - you usually benefit from having 2 or 3 high end power players rather than 4 or 5 moderate ones.

All that tells me is that jungle farming isn't effective anymore. Instead, buffs and objectives are all that matter. This is in no small part because all the xp and gold are present in said buff camps so there's no value in the other camps.

There is a little bit of this in that the Jungler can't really stand around the jungle and making sure that it's clear but in the end, it's simply more valuable for the Jungler to give up the jungle to other members of his team to opportunistically poach than run a clear circuit continuously.

Xypherous on Arcane Helix and Some S4 Plans

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

It probably ended up being nothing but abuse cases and just wasn't deemed a necessary enough item to force it to work.

This.

Yeah - I tried making a more wide-spread version of Locket to try to combat the point abuse cases - but as it turns out engine items (engine here, defined as things that are designed to convert one resource to another at a bonus) are notoriously hard to get right as solo items.

One day - I'll figure out how to make one of these work. >_>

1. Was Grevious Wounds not a successful counter to this item? Because many sustain tanks are borderline invulnerable as it is unless you're able to kite or apply GW.

No one particularly likes Grevious wounds - because the effect isn't really justifiable as a sole item purchase.

I have plans in S4 for Grevious Wounds to act more like an augment to certain items - rather than the sole reason you rush an item, which should make it a bit more palatable.

Still thinking we might have to retune the % of GW though. 50% is kind of ridiculous - but some of our healing is also balanced around it. Graaah. :P

2. Isn't the real problem behind that item the fact that Tear exists? If Tear wasn't such a big part of the game right now, then champs like Swain and Kassadin would be unable to abuse the Arcane Helix to such a degree.

A large part of it was actually blue buff / map mana regen auras and large max mana items like Rod of Ages and Frozen Heart (and Tear.)

Essentially, once you had enough max mana, Helix plus any source of regeneration would turn the engine on overdrive.

So not even lowering the amount healed on toggle abilities, was able to bring it in line? Something like 10% instead of 30%, similar to how spell vamp works with damage over time and AoE abilities. Or removing it all together on toggle abilities.

Honestly - the item didn't seem cool enough in the end when it worked to justify putting a bunch of conditions in, unfortunately.

It was just - Hey! I'm Swain / Kassadin and I want to stay out in the field forever - rather than doing anything particularly cool - they were just tanky and healy. :P

Fair enough, but even with huge amounts of mana and mana regen the engine would still be limited by the cooldowns of the champion, except in the cases of champions with toggle abilities. So why not lower the amount healed for toggle abilities or even remove the healing from toggle abilities. That seriously would fix any abuse case i can think of

It would definitely fix some of the abuse cases (well, barring Kassadin / Kog'maw) - but in the end, it was determined that the net benefit of having the item wasn't cool enough to justify having in the game - as it just wasn't particularly cool.

That thing... on singed.

From testing the item - it was also super obnoxious on Kassadin. Rift Walk for 800 damage + 800 health = Oh god, ruuun!

It would probably be much different then you first iteration of the Helix but would bring some more cool itemization to the support role, which you have done amazing with so far in season 3.

First off - no, we haven't done that well with support items, because we didn't solve Vision.

We mitigated the problem somewhat - but vision remains the one element of the game that is completely destructive towards support itemization. These two systems clash and vision wins.

If we had better active item UI - it might be plausible to do some sort of vial of moonwell effect or something - where you charge up a heal by using mana - making it a much much smaller item that could then build into Mikael's or something.

But this would have to wait for S4 at best - the game doesn't really need more items right now for variety's sake - but I agree that more support items would be good.

Xypherous on Phage

He is still very active in this post, ill be updating it every few hours.
UPDATE 5: 11:14PM EST - added more

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Phage is an item that is problematic - especially top lane, where isolation is key. Phage, when balanced, guarantees that if you are winning, you will win overall - because every trade henceforth has the chance of guaranteed death (running away).

This is different from cutlass - as the cutlass slow is not repeatable in short duration and can be overcome. That's kind of the main issue with Phage - Generic Defense + Repeatable Slow Proc means that if you win trades - you will now turn trades into kills, which isn't an acceptable trait to have in lane.

So it's a tricky problem overall - as Phage causes problems in a very isolated case - but that isolated case just happens to be every top lane conflict ever that involves auto-attacks.

The question here then becomes: When do we want Phage to be good - and what do we want it to good for.

i have a solution, make phage proc every 3 attacks

so ennemis can escape before the third attack proc

That actually ensures enemies dies as no character only relies on their autoattacks - they have typically secondary mechanics to allow them to land more than one autoattack.

Then, once slowed, having it be every 3 autoattacks traditionally guarantees death given the duration of 2 seconds.

So your saying that if your ahead in lane by winning trades, turning trades into kills is bad? Maybe i'm wrong but I thought that was the Idea behind laning?

An item shouldn't turn laning phase into a farce essentially. Laning ideally is about back and forths and skillful plays - not 'Oh, I got a little bit ahead or I'm a little stronger overall - if I have Phage, the lane is over.'

exactly. it should have been a lower value slow, that stacks up, instead of this random % chance a long time ago.

The random nature of Phage isn't ideal - but it turns out to be a lot better than most of the suggestions listed except for the guaranteed proc on activate that has a cooldown - of course, that item is just Cutlass - so we kind of have that item already.

A very real problem of Phage is that it doesn't have a cooldown but when it does have a cooldown, you'll never be able to use the proc intelligently as you can't choose to not autoattack.

There's a piece of this here where RNG is basically the worst solution ever - but one of the few that actually work.

what if it also debuffed an enemy so that they couldn't be slowed again by phage again within X seconds? Akin to J4's and Naut's passives

Since you can't choose to when to proc Phage's passive - it pretty much means that you will never benefit from Phage's passive.

And if you *can* choose when to proc Phage's passive - well, we made that item, it's called Cutlass. Yeah - it works fairly well.

(Although you could argue that the next hit attack feeling feels better than an active targetted slow - but then you'd get into a bunch of melee and range differences that get fairly obnoxious in scope.)

For example - let's make a guaranteed slow item that has a slightly reduced slow percentage - this item is completely broken on ranged, unless the passive was close to minimal in effectiveness.

the stats on phage with health and flat ad are vastly different from cutlass with lifesteal, and appeal to a different type of champions.

Right - Health is a form of generic defense that has less costs to utilize as a defensive mechanic and has less conditionals to be good.

Let's take Phage and Cutlass and give them the same active - which item is problematic to be stronger? Phage as the item is self-sufficient. Phage will always have less of a statistical budget because early lifesteal is conditional on having minions around to use it on.

It's definitely true that Cutlass will scale harder but Phage's problem has never been its end-game effectiveness. It's always been on the warping nature of it in lane.

Would removing it and replacing the items that build from it with a Cutlass work at all or no? What if Cutlass itself was changed too, since people are complaining about that item and it's BotRK upgrade on ranged champions also?

I haven't actually had time to work on Phage - but it's not altogether clear that the game is better if the item was actually good (compared to the other items commonly listed as being straight better than Phage).

I'm not sure I have a solution currently otherwise, I probably would've already implemented something by now.

cutlass builds into bork, phage builds into mallet.

which champion will be stronger in the end?

Again - as stated, Phage's problem has never been its end-game effectiveness - it's always been about its warping effect in early laning.

Cutlass will definitely be stronger in the end - this is completely true. However, that doesn't justify Phage dominating lane automatically by itself.

You have to basically solve a couple things on Phage:

1. Change it from generic defense to something more conditional.

2. Give it some kind of cooldown to gate the repeated case.

3. Give it some kind of counterplay for its upgrades, or make the upgrades acquirable so late in the game that it will never matter in lane.

So, for a really bad example, if Frozen Mallet was a 3800 gold item that gave you 50% reduction versus critical hit damage, health, light AD and a cooldown being slow procs - we might be getting somewhere. However, doing this between Seasons is basically asking for the game to blow up in your face. XD

What exactly do you mean by this? I mean by the game being "better."

In general, think of things holistically in terms of whether the game is actually one that you'd want to play.

There's a lot of competing goals - ensuring build variety without overpowering other build items - ensuring that each phase of the game is still fun regardless of what you do, etc. When you think about a change - the goal inevitably has to be "Is League of Legends better as a whole if I do this change?"

So, yes, Phage's biggest problem is in the lane, but another reason no one buys it is because the upgrades are bad and not worth it. I'm not the only one saying this.

We could definitely make the other items better. If anyone would actually like to talk about Frozen Mallet and Tri-Force and what they should be - I'm entirely open to that. Just responding directly to Phage suggestions at the moment.

The additional aside of 'Hey, Iceborne Gauntlet is too good' isn't really a solution into making Tri-Force and Frozen Mallet better - it might be a true statement but nerfing IBG won't magically make Tri-Force and Frozen Mallet good or fun to play with / against.

You have not yet provided any argument for why Phage's price cannot be lowered, only for why you think Phage is a toxic item.

Phage is a toxic item because if it was cost-efficient in terms of Health / Damage / Proc - it does make it an auto-win button.

The fact that it isn't cost-efficient is the reason why you don't auto-win when you buy Phage - because you're taking a heavy gold efficiency hit to attempt to turn trades into guaranteed advantage.

The other win lane items are very efficient at countering being killed by opponents - but do relatively little for you in terms of winning the lane overall. The other items mentioned (Hexdrinker / Armguard) prevent you from outright losing lane by lowering the opponent's burst combo - but they don't really guarantee trades becoming kills - they merely lower the effect of trades.

Unique Passive - Icy: Your basic attacks slow target's Movement Speed by 15% for 1.5 seconds. This effect cannot trigger on the same target more than once every 12 seconds.
This way, it can't be used the same way Frozen Mallet can, it's not super effective and is mainly useful in assisting ganks or accessorizing trades in lane. Reduce its price to around 1200 or so.
And for the love of god don't make it an active. Actives are best on defensive, emergency items, not attacking items. Too awkward.

Okay - think about this specifically for a second. You're Irelia - You bladesurge onto your opponent to trade with them.

What happens to your Phage proc? Is it actually useful - can it actually accomplish the goal here of sticking onto your opponent?

It's definitely a good item for late-game ganks in this scenario - except that you tend to burn the slow immediately - but this is often the worst time to apply the slow to begin with. It would definitely make it a better mid to late game item but in lane it's almost completely uncontrollable for melee in a good way.

Then the flip-side of this is that you then have to make it completely ineffective for ranged characters - which is something you'll just have to do if you want it guaranteed.

Well in that instance nothing because bladesurge is not an auto. Unless it applies on hits but i don't think it does.
If it does, OR you do auto after you get a slow. Where is the confusion?

You've essentially burned the slow you need to stick onto the target immediately at the beginning of the fight.

If the reason you purchased the item was to actually stick onto retreating targets - this defeats the point as they'll trade with you in the 1 second it takes for the slow to fall off and be able to run away. 

Essentially, this version of phage is only effective if the target can do nothing but run as soon as you engage on them - it's definitely a good item mid to late game - but pretty awful in lane.

(Which may be the point of the suggestion I suppose - You'd still need to couple it with a really hard direct ranged effectiveness nerf on it.)

do you being downvoted on most of your post, xypherous ?

Well, if I'm downvoted - it generally just means I'm not doing a very good job explaining things - so it's probably a good sign that I just need to reassess my thoughts.

Downvotes are great in that regard - as it means I'm usually doing something wrong.

Or at the very least, saying something in a way that just annoys people.

i dont understand what makes you think, that the conditional nature of lifesteal is inherently a drawback compared to flat health.

as the conditions in lane might manifest in a way, that the health gain from lifestealing on minions can over time vastly outclass the bonus from a bit extra health.

This is true, lifesteal over time can definitely outclass the bonus from extra health.

However, recall the worst case scenario of Phage to begin with - I can convert trades to kills - which means that I have no incentive to let the over time portion of the equation to even come into play.

Get back into lane - murder the opponent as soon as possible, have the health to buffer the opponent's counterattack.

It's true that lifesteal can be stronger given time - however, given the way Health works with regards to what a no cooldown slow-proc wants you to do (Kill the opponent as soon as you can) - it's much stronger coupled with that passive.

Pretty sure everything you've said that makes Phage to strong applies two-fold to IBG. Is IBG being looked at?

Not quite.

1. You can't get IBG in lane easily - so we circumvent Phage's main strength.

2. IBG only gives armor - which means that you're still not more effective if you're using it to slow mages or sustained magic damage in general.

3. IBG's slow wears off the instant they leave the zone - so if they have any movement effect, they can break the slow instantaneously.

So is it possible to balance Phage's slow, or will the item need to repurposed? Since most fighters have switched to Cutlass and BotRK for sticking power, Phage isn't really needed. The main reason people want Phage to be cheaper is so they can start building Trinity Force again.

I think we'll probably have to repurpose Phage and Frozen Mallet to have more targetted defenses of some type.

There's a definite simplicity to the fact that Phage and Frozen Mallet are just Health / Damage / Slows - but ideally, we'd want to target Phage and Frozen Mallet to be more effective at one specific type of damage if we want it to remain a hybrid offense/defense item.

You'd really want to focus on what you want Phage / FM to do - if it's to be melee bruiser ways to stick onto carry targets - you probably want to focus the defense around ranged or critical damage reduction and the slow to be quite long but have a very long cooldown between procs.

As for the build path into Trinity Force - that also comes down to deciding what Trinity Force should be. It has definitely lost its niche of being able to control space and mobility - it feels like to me Trinity Force should be the item with the most movement speed in the game by far and focus on minor slows to opponents.

Oh also does anyone else find it ironic that Xypherous is defending the RNG of Phage saying it makes it bad on purpose. When he's the guy who revamped the Crit system to guarantee you ramp up your crit chance after every time you don't crit.

True - I've definitely removed more RNG in the game than I can count. It's something that I'm fairly committed to whenever we get to a better solution than RNG.

However - I have not found that to be true in Phage's case. As I've said - It's the worst solution ever. It's also the best solution I've seen unless you completely remake the item entirely - which we'll probably have to do in the future.

Oh also while we are on the subject oh Phage and slows on hit. Why is Ice-Born gauntlet still only good on Ezreal? Why haven't you nerfed this item for ranged to buff it for melee yet? Why are you showing such blatant ranged favoritism with items like Phage, Frozen Mallet and Ice born Gauntlet.

While we may not have been as extreme as you'd like it to be - each of those items listed does have a penalty for ranged characters using it.

Xypherous is getting so much hate he has pretty valid points

If I'm getting downvoted - It's completely justified.

I am not explaining things in a way that makes people understand or satisfied with it - nor am I providing responses that are decent enough to assuage them.

Downvotes are a symptom of a problem - but the original problem is probably my thoughts/explanations on Phage - it's almost never a problem of people. I've generally found the GD community to be pretty open-minded when things are done well.

The fact you thing phage is a defensive or offensive item is why you don't actually understand why it's bad. It's a utility item and it should remain as such, stop trying to pigeon hole items into a role, you're allowed to have hybrid items that provide utility for a cheap cost, especially when you're behind. Phage used to be one of the best buys as a bruiser when you were losing game cause it actually let you peel for your carry instead of pretending like you could kill theirs.

I find this an odd statement to make because Phage's problem used to be that it was one of the best buys as a bruiser when you were ahead.

While it was definitely nice to have when you were behind and using it to provide utility - that wasn't why Phage was problematic.

By fixing the problematic aspect of Phage by attacking cost / stat efficiency - we removed the utility / behind nature you're speaking of. If your goal here is to bring that utility power and an item to buy when you're behind back - buffing the item won't fix anything as that will bring the other problem back - that Phage is incredibly strong when you're ahead.

That's why I talk about repurposing the item or changing the item fundamentally - because in the end - you can't make it generalized without causing a lot of problems.

Here's a good question. If Phage is so broken because it causes trades->kills, then why can lane bullies->high target threats later on in the game even if they are not fed. Yorick falls off, Darius gets kited, while people like Elise/Jayce/Kennen get to bully almost everyone but they have no penalty later on for this strength. Also Darius W is broken with that logic. Just saying.

You're correct in that those characters are problems. I don't think I've ever disagreed with the Elise/Jayce sentiments - I make those claims personally and am working on Jayce personally to tone down some of the more abusive/unfair elements in lane in late game.

I'm of the opinion though, that just because problems exist, that doesn't mean that you can go make more problems of the same nature intentionally.

What if Phage's slow chance would sink in relation with the enemys %hp.
Or if you dealt a certain %hp dmg in a short time that the slow proc chance would sink.
Or if you have higher %hp then the chance is lower just like Irelias stun thats conditioned.

Sorry - my bad, it's hard to track each individual post.

I think the goal that people want to strive for is to reduce Phage's RNG element completely - not merely curtail it.

I realize that you are lowering the ability for Phage to slow to take away that edge case - but does this also destroy what Phage players want it to do (apparently, either utility slow for peel or kill ranged attackers with it).

They're better RNG solutions than pure RNG - they're just less clear about it. Interesting direction though - Although I wonder if the problem is more like 'Phage should just not be an early lane item.'

imo you're getting downvoted because there has been no explanation of how phage could possibly be abusive when most of the best laners right now are ranged anyway, and phage would be super useful to try and fight back as a melee against them.

Would it? It seems like Phage would simply be better on them to completely destroy the melee character unless you changed Phage to only be effective against ranged targets.

Then why the hell would you make Bork. It's not even a situational item anymore. People who I never believed should get it do now as their first item ALL THE TIME. It also creates more kiting problems since only Master Yi and Morgana can counter the movespeed steal+heavy nuke damage. Bork literally does what you are saying Phage was doing right now. Trades->Kills.

BoRK typically doesn't come into play as early as Phage was - by the time a 3k item makes its entrance into the laning phase - I'm not sure there's enough of the laning phase left to say that all trades from this point turning into kills is an issue.

BoRK's active slow duration is too high right now - that's absolutely true and something we'll have to address. However - I'm just not sure there are many trades left in the laning phase after 3k gold worth of items.

Why not allow Phage to increase the carriers speed on hit instead of slowing their opponent? This allows it to do somewhat the same thing but not be as punishing.

Yeah - it's probably a better direction for the item overall.

Movement speed on-hit is always weird because you proc it off minions to use it to engage on people but honestly, that's probably a good thing in this case as it'll give you interesting lane play.

What happens to this on Frozen Mallet then?

2. IMPROVE MALLET'S SLOW DURATION BECAUSE OH MY GOD PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH PHAGE RIGHT NOW IS NOT ONLY IS IT ****TY, THE BIG ITEM IT BUILDS INTO IS ALSO ****TY.

Not saying that Frozen Mallet is in a good spot - but does increasing Frozen Mallet's slow duration really help the item out? I feel like the item's generalized stat pool are what's poor - not the actual passive on it.

If the difference was as meaningful you would say, then can you tell me why in tournaments currently there are 7-9 ranged champions being played every single game on average? This obvious difference isn't a problem to you guys?

These points don't seem related - as absolutely no one gets Phage or Frozen Mallet - and IBG sees scattered play on Ezreal.

No one's picking up Phage / FM anyway as a whole - so the difference here wouldn't actually make a dent on tournament picks in the first place.

So that korean player I seen get it at 11:40 seconds doesn't count. I mean it doesn't happen nearly as early as that in a lot of cases, varies depending on how good the carry is but it is up around the same time phage is used and in the game.

To be perfectly honest here - if there's a korean game where the laning phase lasted to 11:40 - I'd be surprised. The current style there is to end the laning phase at something close to 8 minutes in.

Maybe if Phage was good we might actually see more melee champions instead of 8 ranged champions a game. Buff phage, remove ranged functionality. Suddenly melee have a cheap counter to ranged. Crazy.

This has become less about Phage and more of a continuous desire for melee champions to be better in the game.

While that's definitely a relevant discussion to have - what exactly makes you think that Phage is the best engine for that and not that Jayce or Elise are dominant and unfair in lane?

Secondly, what makes you think that the resultant melee vs. melee matchups would be fun and not revert to the problems that S2 Phage had?

The best solution here to get the ranged counter-item that you desire is to make Phage work only against ranged champions.

I've actually made a post regarding crit and removing the RNG entirely before, but it went completely unnoticed. Any way I could get in contact with you outside of forums to discuss it, and maybe other balance points as well? The process of balancing games like this has always been somewhat intriguing to me.

Not going to talk about this point specifically because it's really out of scope.

Hence, just make it MELEE ONLY. Do it. Ranged don't need buffs. I know you seem hesitant to make things ranged only or melee only, but it's really pretty fricking simple to understand. Especially with the undo purchase change coming, even the newest of players should be able to understand these tags. If they can't read or refuse to read, you have bigger problems than trying to cater to casuals. Melee only items are a good solution, especially for a class that is suffering greatly right now.

The problems with S2 Phage was entirely a problem with melee vs. other melee in top lane.

Making Phage Melee only and buffing Phage only gets you back to the original problem with Phage.

Let's say this is a perfect ideal world where Phage has totally completely destroyed the ranged class and no ranged characters exist anymore. That doesn't mean that Phage is particularly healthy because it retains the S2 qualities it had.

That's why you have to do a more holistic solution on Phage.

Melee vs Melee isn't going to disvulge into some kind of toxic cancerous zero counter play game play just cause someone has a phange and i don't. Right now it costs 1500 gold. For 1500 gold i can get 650 health. That's way better that what phage can give, WAY BETTER. Or get a wardens Mail for 1100 gold and a Ruby crystal. There is plenty of counter play to phage and aggression right now.

At the end of the day - what you have there is just a weak Phage that's not worth picking up compared to a Giant's belt.

Which is basically the problem right now, even with melee vs. melee lanes - Phage is weak and not worth picking up.

This is completely divorced from the discussion that melee vs. ranged seemed skewed in lane - it's just a question of what is Phage's power level and what should it do - because making it melee only doesn't solve the old melee problems unless phage is just a weak item.

At the end of the day - what you actually want is to turn Phage into a dedicated anti-range item - which is again, a complete rework of the item that I've said we'll probably need to do.

Hrm. Okay - I'm actually probably going to have to examine this a bit better, especially after patch 3.10 comes out with Elise.

I'm fully willing to admit that I don't have the relevant information here specifically on what the state of top lane will be after 3.10 but I still want to wait and see if the problem is melee vs. ranged or if it's a specific problem of there are 5 specific ranged champions that can be run top lane that stomp every melee champion you can think of. I just haven't done the due dilligence in examining if this is a problem outside of Elise/Jayce/Kennen or if this is literally 'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'

Sorry that I've been unable to provide satisfactory answers and that you're current feeling frustrated over the state of our game - but I can't give concrete answers or actionables right now without further analysis. I know that's pretty unsatisfying as a whole but the fact that you're frustrated just means that there's more effort we can put on this front.

I'm unfortunately going to have table this until we get Jayce / Elise into line and see what happens. I suspect what will happen is characters like Quinn will simply rise to stomp top lane if you guys are correct - but that will be a definite sign that we'll have to work on early game lane defenses and options versus ranged (which honestly, would be pretty awesome to have) or plan for wide-spread ranged attack damage nerfs at early levels for S4 (which again, would be pretty awesome come to think of it).

It's kind of weird to always be continuously working in a space 3 to 6 months ahead.

In no way do I want the game to become the knee-jerk "AD carries should be optional" like others claim it should be, but I think sustained damage melee are the class that are hurting the most right now.

Complete agreement here in that sustained-AA melee are in a terrible spot.

One of the goals for S4 is to create dedicated defense/offense hybrid items that are better than just 'they steamroll everything and everyone' so we avoid the all bruisers all the time meta that we develop when we make generic defense strong enough to fight ranged.

Is that why you have spellbreaker? Is this a wave of new items to come?

I'm trying to make a series of these items for S4, yes. Things that give you offense and defend you against a specific class of characters or tell you to live in a specific area of the fight in the late game.

In the past, when we've made offense/defense items powerful and generic - we've had the problem of just having wave of bruiser-dom that no one particularly liked either.

Experimenting with things like reduced flat damage from all sources (counters passive light damage flying all around) or reduced AoE damage on a heavy offense item is the kind of things we're looking at.

Essentially - if bruisers need to survive some kind of damage source X - we should give them exactly that tool to survive X and no more, because otherwise they just turn into survive everything and have no real play. It kind of steps into targetted counter-land a little bit but it'll also give us room to make more interesting champions knowing that there are tools in the game to deal with them.

IronStylus on Mount Targon and lore

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hi,
So, as far as lore goes - I am a pretty huge fan, I don't really like playing a champ whose lore I didn't like. And I think the Lore is one of the best aspects of the game.
So on Lore - we have multiple regions, The City-State areas: Demacia, Noxus, Piltover, Zaun, Bandle City(!?), BilgeWater. We have some "Areas" where people come from, not so structured as The city states, but still have their own unique domain: Freljord, Kumungu Jungle, Shurima Desert, The Void, The Shadow Isles, Ionia, Other places that aren't really in Runeterra (Nasus/Renekton's Home, Kayle/Morgana's Home, Soraka's Home, etc.)
And this is AWESOME, every place as it's own unique identity with their own kind of "flavor" and it adds to the champions. The only 2 places that could be compared are really Zaun and Noxus, but they are allies so I mean - they would have similarities.
Anyways, we had this AWESOME Freljord Patch recently and a Shadow Isles Patch a little while ago that really expanded on the areas and filled them with more champions. I think we need a few more patches like that to expand more areas.
The 2 Areas I speak of Most are: Mount Targon and Bilgewater. We don't really know very much about these areas, and they seem to be full of potential. So far we have had TONS of Demacians and Noxians and even Piltover(ians), but these 2 areas are really kind of short on champs. (Some people I talked to didn't even know what Mount Targon was O.O)
BilgeWater: Gangplank, Miss Fortune
Mount Targon: Diana, Leona, Pantheon
In Comparison to
Demacia: Fiora, Galio, Garen, Jarvan IV, Lux, Poppy, Quinn, Shyvana, Sona, Vayne, Xin Zhao
I, personally, have a fascination with Mount Targon (nothing against Bilgewater) and wonder why we haven't expanded the lore from there. It seems full of opportunities for people to join the league. We have the Solari and the Rakkor tribes on the Mountain, but maybe there are other tribes on the mountain? Maybe we see more Rakkor, Maybe a mage who isn't used to fighting and was always a wimp and was an outcast for believing in Magic over Manpower. idk, just an idea.
The reason I actually played Diana at first was because she had an AWESOME lore, like I actually thought about her lore and how it impacted the league. Leona had the kind of Introductory to the Solari and Pantheon Introduced the Rakkor, Diana was the first expansion and she was awesome.
So, idk if you guys are already working on something or if you just don't like the region and have abandoned it, but I think this area is awesome and is full of potential for expansion and future champions. It's a great region and It would expand the lore, which is always good, since I, like many others, am a HUGE fan of lore.

So, in a more extensive exploration, before the benedryl and advil knock me out.. (i have a cold).. I want to say that I indeed also think Targon is ripe to explore. Leona, Diana, Pantheon, they make a nice little triangle. There's very fertile soil to be planted in here. Basically, if you look at Diana's teaser and splash from the standpoint of sequence (actually how they're supposed to be seen) she had a moment of revelation and conviction in the teaser, and after that, something went down in Diana's splash. Her "arrival", so to speak. Great question then follows if we're to project past that moment in the splash...

What next?!

Does Diana get up, look around at the broken temple and thank the moon in it's unyielding power? Does Leona come upon the broken remains and slaughtered Solari and react in horror? Does Leona's childhood friend Pantheon have a part to play in a coming battle, or a reconciliation? All plausible next steps!

The great thing about Targon is that it's not a city-state, it's a region. It's a BIG region. It's where we put all of our Greco-Roman inspired champions, therefore, you can expect it might have some Mount Olympus vibe to it. Characters battling which aren't just heroes, but avatars of the elements and heavens themselves, probably the closest thing we have to Olympian-type gods. That's what excites me very much about Targon in a way. It's a point of connection between the metaphysical forces of nature, and their interaction with humans. Right now, two very powerful tidal forces have imbued their power into two humans who have more-or-less sacrificed a component of their humanity to be given such power. They are avatars, but at what expense?

The real interest for me comes in the conflict not just between each other, but with the struggle of one's own humanity against the forces of absolutism, orthodoxy, or ideology. For lack of a better comparison, Diana and Leona are both clad by doctrine, and represent two humans, to an extent, at the mercy of two forces who's malice far transcends the clashing of gold and silver swords. My curiosity very much pools in the place where Leona and Diana must examine just how much of their humanity they control. How much are they legitimately at odds? And how much are they potentially pawns.

Ugh... I could go on all night about this.. but alas, I need the sleeps.

glad to hear it. I'm a big fan of the style that those three bring (it's why after 500+ games of jungling Leona I'm still not bored of it)
I'm just hesitant to expect another champ release any time soon that *mechanically* will match up with that aspect of their lore. Releasing champs without some form of escape mech just isn't something that happens anymore.

Actually, it was an intentional mechanic for both Diana and Leona to commit. High risk. High reward. Volty is very much about this sort of play style, as am I. I think that we might try to imbue that into another champion down the road. For me, Targonian champions, and this is just a personal opinion, should always in someway be melee. Even a mage or ranged, melee in some way. I know that sounds odd. I like the idea that they are harnessing elemental powers in the form of physical weapons. Not sure this will specifically happen in any new Targonian champion, but it's a theme I'd like to play with.

Also, hopefully before you go:
Is the moon evil, or angry?

My gut says angry. I hate black and white comparisons. Diana is not "evil" and Leona is not "good." They are humans who are to an extent victims of their circumstances which have molded the people they are. I actually think they are both fundamentally good people. It's my assertion that Diana is not some devil-child, but is someone who sought reconciliation and understanding. Circumstances however made that part of her burn away.

Tbh... Leona doesn't have enough options.

When all you have is an initiator kit, everything looks like a nail.
Getting ganked? ALL IN.
Trading? ALL IN.
Ahead in lane? ALL IN.
Behind in lane? ALL IN.
Hard countered by enemy? ALL IN.
Have to turtle? ALL IN.
All in doesn't work? .............afk in bush I guess.

Yeah, that's sort of the intent. However, nothing is indeed perfect. We learn every time we make something. We know she has difficulty when ADC's trade and whatnot. You kinda just.. sit there.. But, she is who she is, and she'd a particular flavor. There's going to be a lot of flavors.

Does anyone worship the moon, now that Diana is a champion? What would she expect from her faithful?

*shrug*

My guess is that someone probably had to survive the Lunari genocide.

The thought of it is great though. Adds a whole different element onto the already complicated political scene. Noxians and Demaxians uniting together under the banner of the sun, against their lunar counterparts? Void-cults running willy-nilly, spider-cults stealing people away? There's a lot more very influential champions now.

Yeah. This is why I go on about "NO ONE-OFFS", simply because this world has to be united by some threads somewhere. We're not just going to make random pairs, but we want to build off of the foundation we've laid. We need to make a world where it would be totally possible for Runterra to ally together to fend off a Void invasion or other such epic event. You can't have characters to disconnected that they have no chance of ever meeting. You need crossroads and overlaps.

that makes me very happy to hear. Good to know I'm not the only one that likes the commit-heavy, mistake-punishing, high-risk high-reward style.

It was definitely a very pushed-for mechanical thematic in Diana. We wanted to emphasize her "self-immolation". She gives no ****s. She's relentless, but not because she vengeful, or spiteful, this is what she has been driven too, and the desires of others don't factor into her mentality. She's a nihilist and we wanted you to feel like you were playing a vicious, unyielding and uncaring force who didn't care about her own self-preservation.

@IronStylus:
Is the next Diana skin Sailor Moon inspired glamorous?

That might be a little copyright infringy.

well yeah, so was King Rammus and both of Shen's initial skins. That's why you call it something slightly off

Noted

Get Ready for the New LeagueofLegends.com

It looks like the site is about to come out of beta within the coming week

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

 

Starting this coming week,we'll begin the transition to the new LeagueofLegends.com. We got a lot of great feedback from the beta testers, and, after a few minor tweaks, it's ready for live. 

 

A lot's changed since the last site update back in Season 1, so we wanted to build a new site to support the wider range of content we're releasing these days.

 

Here's what you can expect from the new design:

• Streamlined navigation focused around a clearer, visual way to access news, along with new ways to find older articles
• A more focused design built from the ground up to feature articles backed up by vibrant art and videos
• A prominently placed community portal full of programs and fan content for you to enjoy

 

For an in-depth look at the changes coming with the new site, click here.

To visit the beta site now, click here.

Champion & skin sale: 7.26 - 7.29

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Give your champions a new look with these skins, on sale for a limited time:

• Justicar Syndra 487 RP

 

• Blade Mistress Morgana 375 RP

 

• Boneclaw Shyvana 260 RP

 

Add these champions to your roster, on sale for a limited time:

• Zac 487 RP

 

• Kennen 440 RP

 

• Heimerdinger 395 RP