Riot Looking for Masteries Feedback for S4, Upcoming VU for Yordles, Evelynn's VU, Urgot is on the List, More on SR's Art

Riot Looking for Masteries Feedback for S4

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Salutations guys! It's not really a secret with Season 4 approaching at some time in the future we're going to be doing some gameplay changes. Morello and Xypherous have talked at a very high level about a few of the topics (we're still heavily in concept and prototyping phase atm) but one of the topics I wanted to grab feedback on is Masteries as one of my tasks in S4 is to give these guys another pass. It'll prob be a while before I can preview anything but I did want to get your feedback as early as possible during this process.

Feedback need not be limited to the following but some points I'm curious about are (Don't feel the need to answer all of them, any feedback is helpful)

1- Do you feel masteries as a whole should be stronger, weaker, or stay the same? There are pros and cons to each approach.

2- What are your current favorite and least favorite masteries?

3- Which tree do you feel is currently the best designed and why? Worst and why?

4- Which masteries do you think are the most overpowered and which are the most underpowered.

5- Any crazy ideas for a new mastery? It can be for any tree, at any tier. New ideas are always helpful

Upcoming Yordles VU

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Lollipoppy will be the new base.

We are talking about poppy. Whenever we talk about poppy though, the conversation goes meta, and we inevitably start talking about female yordles, then yordles in general. Its tricky and will take a lot of discussion and careful planning.
What does Poppy need in terms of a VU? I don't really see any problems. I especially love the ingame model for the Scarlet Hammer skin. I'd play Poppy all the time just for that skin if I was any good at her.
That was the first skin I ever made when I came to Riot. Poppy has some sentimental value for me. I want her to be awesome from a visual standpoint.

Type up thoughts, hope for serious answer, get this... Then thread dies. GG.
As far as gameplay tweaks and changes I can't say. From a visual standpoint I think it goes beyond poppy and more into solidifying yordles as a species or racial group. So yeah, lots of discussion and work to be done there.

Hahaha no I was talking about scarlet hammer. I dont have enough darkness in my soul to have created the maw of madness known as lollipoppy.
And then you have that creepy moment in Riot HQ when no one can remember who actually made lollipoppy.
Nobody knows. It just showed up in patch .666 in beta. We can't even find the source files to delete them. Qqroon got close to finding the files but his computer bricked and he got stigmata. So we don't mess with it anymore.
One of the things I noticed (and love) about yordles is that the yordle women tend to look more human - almost like traditional gnomes - while the yordle men tend to have a lot more rodent features. I think this adds a ton of interest to the race as a whole. I hope you don't lose this.
I have heard this opinion before. Why is having the females look like a different race preferable to having them look like they belong? For the record, I am open to both ideas, leaving them as is, or changing them slightly. Whatever is best for the fantasy imo.

I guess the real challenge is to push females to look like they belong to the yordle race, while at the same time keeping the sexual dimorphisim that the old fans like. Personally I don't like it when new players have no idea that Teemo and Tristana come from the same place. A visual connection needs to be made. How dramatic a connection is something we will have to explore. Lulu is a good example I think. She has a bit of fur on her pointy ears, and sharp incisors. That could be enough, but again, like I said it needs exploration.
And yes Corki and Heimer will look like proper yordles when the time comes, it most likely will be a few subtle changes, to connect them to the race, while keeping the character in tact.

Leo, if and or when we make Corki and Heimer more yordle-ish it should be subtle and keep the core of the character in tact.


Evelynn's VU

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

HEY
Yes there is some progress, we have an initial concept for where we want to take her, but I think she is still a ways out. We are toying around with some different ideas. Nothing is solid right now, but she is up on the board. I don't want to say too much about it, but I would like to hear your thoughts about Eve.
From a visual standpoint what is important to you? What makes sense and what is confusing? Is her current look the best it could be? Thematically, is blue girl with straps and pink hair really the best we can do for Eve? Is there a way in your opinion we could make Her Character look more in line with the way she plays and her in game abilites? Could her lore and character be improved? If she were to be from any part of Runeterra where would she be from? What parts of her lore are worth keeping and what parts are just not helping? Is Eve even human? Or could she be a Hybrid of a Human and...something else?
These are questions we are asking ourselves and would love feedback on from you guys. I think that since she got a gameplay rework not so long ago, there won't be much from the design side. Eve's relaunch will probably be very visual and lore heavy.

Yeah, really anything is on the table right now as long as it enhances gameplay and emphasizes her current kit. The tassles are one of those things that if we can make them cool we will. Same with the high heels, even if they aren't really high heels but more Blade heels or something. And maybe she is super attractive but she has these freaky claws that she is ashamed of, or maybe rather than having actual claws, it is elaborate fist armor or demon gauntlets that are taking over, really creatively there are so many ways we can go. Just for me I am a fan of a little bit of tragedy in her story, or a bit of loneliness. I want to know why her passive is invisibility. Is she ashamed? Does she not want people to see her for some reason? I like it when abilities tie into the character's pathos.

It's just an idea, when making characters sometimes we have to explore possibilities. That's what I thought this thread was. If you don't want to bounce ideas we can stop.
That is a terrible idea(s). Just saying....
She doesn't need to become a monster female type champ that we don't have. Had those been trait ideas for a new champ, then i'm all for. But not Eve.
It's just an idea, when making characters sometimes we have to explore possibilities. That's what I thought this thread was. If you don't want to bounce ideas we can stop.

From what I am gathering so far:
1.She must still be sexy
2.She must convey the feel of an assassin
3.Blue skin pink hair and heels can be cool if visually executed well
4. You guys seem 50/50 on the bondage costume
5.Shadow isles is still a legit place for her to be from


Do you guys see Eve as a "Evil" character or do you see places where we can take "Evil" and make it more "Misunderstood" ?
I see the current arrangement of Shadow Isles champs as a correlation to the Seven Deadly Sins, where Evelynn represents Lust. I'd like her to work off of that theme if possible.
Zerg, that's kinda cool. What is your list?

Gonna throw this out there; What if she was one of the Darkin and didn't even know?

I like the dichotomy of Lust vs Shame. Eve is this super sexy character, but her passive is invisibility? She has an abilities called "Hate Spike" "Dark Frenzy" "Ravage" and "Agony's Embrace" I think we have the opportunity to make Eve a very dark disturbing character that can tell a very compelling story that is somewhat relate able. Even if it means a Traditional skin, I think we are prepared to do that.

Awesome feedback! I think there are a lot of common thoughts and a few ideas that we didn't think of coming out of this thread. This thread will definitely be referenced next time we talk about Eve.

The lore stuff has a lot of interesting avenues it could take in my opinion. Lots of great thematic points have been made here.

As far as visuals, I think we have a grasp of what players will expect in a VU for Eve as well as where we as an art team have some wiggle room to make her even more badass.
Great discussion guys.
I think that would take a lot of development in to the whole idea of the Darkin, I think it would take a fair bit of her lore to explain the idea of the Darkin as a group/cult/mysterious force rather than a race like it was portrayed in the Aatrox lore.
I like the idea but it would have to be explained beyond a couple of lines of "yeah she's a Darkin, it's a secret to everyone". I would want to know what that means for her with regards to her place in the League, her intentions and her interactions with other champions (especially Aatrox, Twisted fate [assuming the JoJ is still canon lore] and any of the other Darkins inside or outside of the League).
It's a concept that could work well but it would need to be the primary focus of her lore so that the explanation didn't seem like a lazy way out of explaining her power.
This isn't as relevant but I saw something earlier in this thread about the shadow isles champions representing the deadly sins, perhaps that idea is more useful if you apply it to the Darkin, with only one confirmed you could easily portray the rest in a way that they all line up with one sin or another.
Yeah I like the Seven Deadly Sin Theme.
I agree that making her a full fledged Darkin would be a lot of work, and could potentially close the door on making a brand new Darkin. Sooo, what if she was only Half-Darkin? A Hybrid with no place in the world, so she has to carve out her own destiny with all the fun character development that comes with it? I feel like I need to draw now.

Morgageddon peers into the conversation...

OPINION STARTING

If Eve is to be from the Shadow Isles, then the use of her claws and her invisibility both fit within that theme. The shame doesn't though.

To be from the Shadow Isles, one must be very strong physically and mentally, since it seems very much like a survival of the fittest region. From that, for Eve to be assigned there and flourish, she must be able to outwit and outplay any of her adversaries. To me, a function of this can be her clothes, since her sexiness and allure can put off unsuspecting enemies and be a distraction. Then, with her ability to become invisible, she can draw enemies to a ground of her choosing, then fight from the shadows since she can't be tracked.

Visually, I would leave the heels, but I would change a bit of her clothes, perhaps put her in a slinky dress. A dominatrix doesn't quite fit, but I would still leave something that accents her curves, since in my mind, she has to draw her enemies in before she can destroy them.


OPINION ENDING

Yeah, The more I think about it, I think the whole shame thing could be a nuanced backstory type thing. Eve on the field is a predator, she's sneaky, Beautiful and very very angry.

So heels must stay, got it.

Just an idea Dean. Read all the posts for context.
@Grumpy Monkey
When her VU gets done will her masquerade skin be redone as well?
Yes, they will be given an update but themes will not change.

xanderzeller, thanks for your thoughts! You make some good points.


Urgot is on the List

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

I actually really do like Urgot. Was just curious if there is anything in the pipeline for him. If not I'm still content.

i like him too! :3

aside from the lock-on range indicator i added recently, we don't have any set-in-stone plans for him but he is on 'the list' for analysis, kit adjustments, etc. basically we think he could use some attention, but as others have mentioned he's kind of sitting on a razor's edge right now—we'd like to update him such that we can easily make balance changes for him in the future without everyone holding their breath wondering if the world will collapse. :3

tl;dr - he's on the list. doesn't have a date yet. no other info yet, sorry!


More on SR's Art

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Go back to the original SR concept. It had a lot more vibrant colors and more detail honestly. The harrowing map was amazing. The current map had a graphical update but is very bland is mostly focused on grey and green
This has been a very deliberate move on our part, based on the gameplay needs of LoL. The idea behind it is that to increase in-game readability our art need to be organized into a visual hierarchy. Our highest saturation colors and starkest contrast is reserved for Champion ability VFX, UI like Health bars occupy the 2nd priority, Champions themselves occupy the 3rd priority for contrast,saturation, and level of detail. The environments are the "4th Read". Additionally we differentiate between in-lane play space and other environment spaces and try to keep the lanes less colorful and a little darker so visual effects and champions really pop against them. This is the type of thing we are likely to be doing more of in the future.

That being said, we want to preserve the flavor of LoL. We just also need to balance it against design considerations.

35

Comments

  • #35 mikelso1

    하오골 다시 만들어줘용

  • #34 imfrknbad
    The main mastery I don't want to see disappear is the 3 point tenacity in the defensive tree.
  • #27 Nutegunray

    For Evelynn's VU i feel like the whole seductress thing would be a great idea, i think it would be interesting to have her as a beautiful human chick dressed in all white when shes stealth (cause when u r in range while stealthed they can see u), but then when she breaks stealth she'll become a scary ass demonic or ghost like chick when she breaks stealth, cause thats when she breaks the whole lust thing and distroys people, i dunno i thought i was a nice thought.

  • #18 twospirits

    I like this.

    For example:

    The "summoner's resolve" when using smite 10 Gold gained if used, seems not big but makes it feel important.

    The "summoner's wrath" when ignite is under cooldown character gets stronger.

    I don't like this.

    almost all players goes with this 21/9/0 <--- for offence character's 

    it seems like nobody really cares that there is a mastery at all because 21/9/0 is already the best, its like a passive or it feels like it is not there because everyone is the same! it really is meaningless when everyone goes 21/9/0 while it was meant for personal strategy or something else, or it could have been better if masteries could have some synergies with the main character, which makes the player have more intense fight even when using the same 21/9/0. anyway the point is Riot should change the systems of the masteries.

  • #17 twospirits

    What I can say is that the masteries is the greatness of League of legends and is what makes the difference between Dota. Therefore I can say that making the masteries more designed, stronger and visible makes the stand for the League of legends.

  • #16 drdressup

    Also I think masteries should be weaker. I think the game should be more based on your actual skill at the game, rather than just picking good masteries or counter masteries.

  • #19 Wurstfett

    To choose the right masteries is part of your skill.

  • #20 donovan3995

    Building =/= skill

  • #21 Wurstfett

    Overall skill = theoretical skill + mechanical skill

    And know which masteries and runes to take is part of your theoretical skill.

  • #22 Benegesserit

    @Wurstfett

    No it's not. You can't read something about how to control your champ well etc. and automatically be able to do it. But when it comes to masteries it's just numbers so you can just read a guide and it's gg. Some hardcore math nerd will crunch the numbers before the new masteries even goes live and the irrefutable math will determine the correct masteries to pick. Zero skill (except for the one person/group who did the math the first time).

    Last edited by Benegesserit: 8/5/2013 4:02:34 PM
  • #25 Wurstfett

    I can't remember how the articel name was, but here on reignofgaming was one, which explained what iam talking about. And I agree, that beside mechanical skill there is a theoretical skill, which includes things like itembuilds. And how to build a champ correctly in a game is not something you can just learn from a guide, because you have to understand the individual situation in a game and how to build your champ correctly to this situation - and this includes runes and masteries too. Or why does pro-players have so many rune-pages for just one character depending on the expected matchup in the game?

     

    Edit: Found it! --> http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/emeraldw/21033-mechanical-vs-knowledge-skills-and-how-to-improve

    Last edited by Wurstfett: 8/5/2013 4:35:17 PM
  • #26 klocugh12

    Or part of knowing who to copy from ;).

  • #30 drdressup

    that isn't skill, just simple knowledge that anybody can look up online.

  • #32 Wurstfett

    You don't seem to understand: It is not enough to know, what is written in guide X, so must also know which build (items, masteries, runes) you should choose in which situation - and this is a kind of skill. For example when you face a AD-champ mid you will better use other runes than if you fight a AP-champ. And there are difficulter choices than this easy one. - You dont buy evertime the same items no matter against which enemies you fight and how the game goes and in a similar way you can choose different runes and masteries depending against who you are fighting or how you wanna play your champ this game (for example Xin as some kind of Assasin or Offtank).

    But i cant explain it very good. Just read the linked article.

     

    Last edited by Wurstfett: 8/6/2013 3:57:14 PM
  • #33 donovan3995

    Skill is a practiced form. The other is a better understanding of your functions, not using them.

  • #15 drdressup

    "but she has these freaky claws that she is ashamed of,"
    "Just for me I am a fan of a little bit of tragedy in her story, or a bit of loneliness. I want to know why her passive is invisibility. Is she ashamed? Does she not want people to see her for some reason? "


    These don't fit Evelynn at all in my opinion, I really hope these don't happen, I've always seen her as an arrogant in-control type character, not some broken girl with a dark past that just wants to be loved. She's supposed to be an assassin, even her phrases like "I like it when they scream", and little jokes about moving quickly in heels should show that she ought to be evil, as opposed to some misunderstood girl with a broken past that goes invisible so people can't make fun of her or something like that.

    I really hope npne of those changes happen, (no offense to the writer) I'm all for more evelynn lore I guess, but please don't make Evelynn like this.

    Last edited by drdressup: 8/5/2013 6:19:39 AM
  • #23 Gameguy301
    yeah i dont realy like that angle either eve just seems evil and sadistic in general, she doesnt need a boohoo story.

    i personally hate heels but its a part of her character according to everyone else so ill just have to deal with it so long as they are blades im sure ill be fine. (bladed boots like bayonetta / that greave style in soul calibur would be cooler IMO)

    but blue purple dominatrix is a pretty weird character to start with.
  • #13 TheFriendlyUncle

    Offense mastery, make it so u can unlock the magic pen withoutnthe mandatory requirement of speccing into AP

  • #24 Benegesserit

    All mandatory talents should be removed. If a talent is too powerful either move it further down (to require more points to use it) or nerf it. It's dumb to tell people they have to have a specific talent they may not want to get a talent they do. When the only restriction is how many points you have in the tree at least you have options.

  • #7 Gameguy301
    Fewer mastery points, greater more focused effects. Do AD and AD per level need to be separate? Do AP and AP per level need to be seperate? Is 3% damage compelling? Do lethality and frenzy need to be seperate? Do unyielding and block need to be seperate? do tough skin and bladded armor need to be seperate? Do greed and wealth need to be seperate? do scout and explorer need to be seperate? Roll some of these up into more valuable masteries and remove the boring / general ones with something more focused.

    Make summoner boosting masteries inherent to the summoner spells and remove them they are a pointless sink of 1 point that must be reasighned should you choose a different spell. I have 9/21/0 shyvana (summoners a wrath) 9/21/0 everyone else (1% more attack speed) what a waste of a page. the trend has been to religate these into easier and easier to obtain masteries, at this point they just need to take the final step.

    For those familiar with wow I want a change similar to the move from wraths 51 point system to cataclysms more condensed 31 point system.
    Last edited by Gameguy301: 8/5/2013 5:28:36 AM
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