Leblanc, Galio Changes Aimed for PBE before 3.12 Release, Meddler on Community Idea - Dragon Champion, Team Curse 1V1

Meddler Talks Leblanc

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

I know live feels she's a bit weak at the moment and are currently looking at whether some base stat adjustments would be an appropriate fix/part of an appropriate fix. Nothing set in stone yet, she is on their radar though.

From what I've seen personally I'm inclined to agree she's a bit weak, at least at the level I'm playing at, I usually play ADC or support though so I don't have much direct exposure to her in lane to draw on. Plus, more importantly, I'm not involved that much in balance changes.
You mean you've never had to face support Leblanc?
Someday someone will show you what true hell is.
Run into a few, all that I can recall were on my team though. Quite like laning with them, provided on an ADC that can take advantage of what they offer.


Galio Changes Aimed for PBE before 3.12 Release

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

galio needs serious attention.
agreed! i want to give galio some serious attention soon. my current plan is to try to get some changes on the pbe before 3.12 is released.
(like all plans, the above is subject to change.)

last i read, ricklessabandon was thinking about adding mr scaling onto his abilities like ryze's passive and then possbily giving his passive an extra effect (just like ryze).
yes, one of the changes i want to try is putting the magic resist ratios directly in his abilities so he can get a new passive.

honestly, he is supposed to be a mage counter, and he does not even get mr per level while being melee...
two-part response:
first, i'm going to give galio mr/level in my early tests and see how it goes. i totally expect it to be fine, but 'no promises' and all that.
second, galio isn't really supposed to be a mage counter. his kit doesn't really have anything you'd expect on an anti-mage. sure, he's generally good/annoying against the du couteau house and a handful of other champions, but that's more due to bulwark being particularly effective versus periodic and multi-hit damage than his overall kit. that said, people definitely think of him as resilient against magic so i think it will be worthwhile to make that aspect of him a bit more pronounced.

i'm all for consistency. :3
Anything to say about the repricing of champs? or is that for another person to answer.
another. all the pricing info i have i got from reading the forums, which is to say i'm fairly out of touch with the folks that work with the pricing model and schedule.
Honestly I feel like Galio would be really well off with being changed to ranged. Is that possible at all? Also, his ult (in my opinion) either needs a lower cooldown or make him immune to CC during the duration. Do you have any thoughts on either of these ideas?
i want to avoid talking too much in hypotheticals until there's at least some playable changes on the pbe (since that will more or less mark the 'start' of the project) but i can touch on the first question quickly.

i think it's very unlikely that galio will become a ranged champion. in terms of scope, that would require both animation and visual effects resources—asking for more hands on this is something we'd only want to do if it were absolutely necessary (or totally awesome to the point of becoming necessary), and i don't think that will be the case here. also, i imagine such a change would drastically change the feel of galio for uncertain gains. basically, i don't imagine the change would be worth it.

 Meddler on Community Idea - Dragon Champion

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

It would certainly be cool to do another dragon some day. There's heaps of possibilities beyond just the standard fire breather when it comes to dragon kits so Rumble's kit shouldn't be an issue.

Hypothetical question: What sort of dragon types/themes do you folks think might be a good fit for LoL?
Dragon as a flying creature instead of a fire breathy lizard would be nice, something hit and run with high mobility
So more of an agile, caster type? I could see that working. What sort of theme would you imagine paired with that gameplay?
Sand dragons....

Sand blast - blinds and damages
Tail whip - All enemies in range get covered in sand, slow
Sand burst - causes all enemies covered in sand to take damage
Diamond Form - dragon heats himself up to diamond form, reducing damage by %. Maybe a possible stun if enemy champion facing dragon while transforming (THE SHINIES!!!!)
Like the less conventional element choice. Blind instead of stun on the Diamond Form would also be a really strong thematic fit if wanting to play up the light aspect.
The next dragon we need in LoL is: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=1158089
We do intend to do Dragonmaster Swain at some point .
grassdrag, the grass dragon

Q: grassdrag picks up a tree (he generates it, he doesn't actually remove part of the map, this ain't fckin dota) and he can then roll it down a lane, stunning and damaging whoever it hits. this is very dragony because dragons are strong and stunful.
W: grassdrag shoots his leaf breath (channel), dealing meh damage every second for 5 seconds, but also applying a stack of leaf for 5 seconds. leaf stacks serve no purpose.
E: grassdrag whips dudes with his tail, knocking dudes affected back a decent distance (think jayce)
R: grassdrag tries to swallow an enemy champion if it's completed, it's instakill. 5 second channel, low cooldown. it promotes teamwork because you don't want your teammates to be instakilled.
Bit confused by the leaf stacks - why mention them if they serve no purpose?

As far as that ult goes I think there's definite potential in something along those lines (really short range devour themed spell that gives a champion high proximity threat). Got a prototype kit in mind hoping to test something similar on one day too, though without the instakill aspect.
Since, I have a feeling that the dragon is going to have an elemental kit, I feel that electricity could be pretty cool.
What sort of things would you guys expect from an electricity dragon personality/background/kit wise?

Obligatory reminder: Just talking what ifs here, this is not a statement that we'll be making another dragon (though, speaking purely for myself, I do think it would be cool to).
I'll be honest, I was kind of thinking it would end up being more of a bird until I saw the comments above about being a storm dragon. It just makes sense that a very fast and maneuverable champion would be attuned to air, and we have a saddening lack of storm-based champions anyway.
On the other hand, it would also be neat to just have a traditional dragon of all things- just a town ravager kind of guy who swoops in, lays waste to things, and flies off into the distance for another run.
I dunno. I'm high on insomnia.

EDIT: Since I somehow managed to forget to say this now that meddler has directly responded to me, you're my favorite champion designer i luv u bb.
I could see storm/air being a good fit with that gameplay yeah.

And you're my favourite MM103!
I would love to play as a dragon, that actually uses ability power, and fire spells. Yes I know we already have Annie and Brand, but i still want a mage dragon champion. Maybe a frost dragon like Sindragosa from wow, she does like frost fire. Maybe her ult would cause her to lift off and breath fire in front of her as she speeds in a straight line and leave a trail of ashe that slows and damages enemies? Or is that too rumble?
It's unlikely we'll want to make another fire dragon given Shyvanna taps into a lot of that classic dragon space. AP caster dragon on the other hand would make sense, especially given Shyvanna's very much not a mage. Wouldn't personally be too concerned about an ult like that overlapping with Rumble, plenty of ways to make the gameplay different (e.g. applied over a moderate amount of time/vanishes gradually), would probably want to make sure the ability could either be used to cross safely over an entire team fight or that the dragon in question was ok being in the middle of a fight after using it though (so not on a squishy, poke based caster for example).
Could be a Hydra, I <3 Hydras....you could do alot of cool stuff with a multi headed champion, such as various movesets depending on the head, or a move that makes the AA fired by the various heads have different effects..1 head slow, 1 head dot etc etc...
Noted. Also a fan of Hydra's myself, though I see them as occupying a different, more pure monster space than dragons. Could also be a chance to play around with some weird head generation/regeneration effects if we ever found a hydra like concept we liked/felt fit well into LoL.
Meddler, a water dragon.

Let me give you an example of a wicked spell.

Water breath = A spell that has movement speed

Let's say it starts with its damage and 300 movement speed.
The travel distance/time is always the same (Fast like any other spell), but the movement speed makes this special.
A constant stream of water (3 seconds+) at 300 movement speed.
Someone running at you with 325 movement speed and you shoot the water?
They now have 25 movement speed. 300 is just an example number.

The spell would have its movement speed increased per level.
So if you're fast, you can push through it.
If not, you're pushed out of the stream.
It's cool because if used properly while channeling, you could hold people against walls while they attempt to move left/right out of it.
Assume they move at half of their max movement speed while moving left/right to give it counterplay.

Neat?
This could also be applied to a wing buffet as well.

If you decide to use this spell on any champion, I pray it's on a water mage. ;~;
Direction of movement based speed modifier, with an extended effect could be cool, though expect there'd be a number of balance/feel while using/playing against challenges to solve. Might be a better fit on a number of non dragon themed kits too actually. Really control mage/support sort of spell well suited to a squishier champ that manipulates, locks others down, than something going for the majestic dragon sort of space.
I know that its pretty off-topic but please, stop ignoring This Karma post .

I'd like to see a red post in there.
Keep doing great work!
Apologies, I'm not familiar enough with old Karma or new Karma to join in on that discussion.
Dragon:
Passive: Thick skin or Dragon's Blood - grants armor and magic resist that slowly increases as rank increases
Gust - Flaps its wing quickly to create a gust (like lux's snare width) which disrupts (pushes aside) any champion in its gust range
Dive - Dragon swoops down and claws or bites the enemy for bonus damage granting attack speed and movement speed bonus. (gaining momentum from going down)
Screech - Creates a sonic wave that deals magic damage and reduces magic resist/armor of the target/s
Manipulation - Dragon uses its mystic power to camouflage and become stealth for a certain amount of time, granting attack damage bonus.

Fusion of western/asian dragon physiology?
Physical/magical mix drawing on multiple cultural backgrounds? Could see something in the caster/bruiser (hey, like Rumble again!) line working with that.
Meddler, with Shyvanna already existing, do you have any rules around dragons in whatever lore library you guys might have? One thing that's clear is that they have to ability to adopt a humanoid form (as seen with Shyvanna and implied by her conception). How far does their transformation go? Would a full-blooded dragon have a better grasp on this transformation (i.e. not requiring a heightened emotional state to activate)?

A concept I always liked was ancient dragons. Not necessarily going so far as the WoW concept of being directly tied to the planet or the D&D route of being part of the cosmology. More like incredibly old, world-weary entities of great power that have ambivalent feelings towards mortals. Beings that see the various struggles and vices of humanity (and Yordles) as nothing more or less than immature and tiresome mistakes.
Lore wise I'm not sure sorry. I know our creative design team have some thoughts on Shyvana's place in our world, shall have to grab them someday and get some details myself.

Ancient/wise/beyond mortal comprehension or worries is a cool archetype. Also gives a nicely different personality to Shyvana so another win there too.
Meddler, any word on Blade?
?
Will there be more Meddler champions comming out soon?
They're definitely some of my favorite champions
Probably, though I've got a lot less time for direct implementation at the moment, so not for a fair while alas - I do really enjoy the whole champ process.
A proper Dragon Knight would be cool, a champion that in lore enslaved Ebonmaw from the Twisted Treeline and now rides him as a steed. Gameplay would revolve around getting on/off the dragon todo combination attacks in a similar style to Oriana's ball. Think "How to Train Your Dragon" - Ebonmaw is now Toothless.
We did actually look into a flying mounted warrior (not on a dragon, different mount) a little while back. Couldn't make it work at the time for a couple of reasons though so it never made it out of the concept stage. Would like to revisit the idea at some point though, there's a lot of cool stuff that could be done with that archetype.
Lore wise I'm not sure sorry. I know our creative design team have some thoughts on Shyvana's place in our world, shall have to grab them someday and get some details myself.
Ancient/wise/beyond mortal comprehension or worries is a cool archetype. Also gives a nicely different personality to Shyvana so another win there too.
Meddler, I cannot sleep. Tell me a bedtime dragon story in that sweet aussie voice of yours.

Also I think it would be badass if a dragon could evoke a feeling of transformation on the world around him. E.g. Could make mud spikes reach out of a wall permanently or cause an avalanche that makes the river flood the rest of the map.

I also know this isn't possible in our engine. Cheers
I'd like to see a dragon more in the form of japanese dragons, w/ long and snakelike features, and of course the whiskers they always seem to have. I'd imagine that the theme of it would be similar to Janna, where it would be wind/weather/storm related.

As for the electricity dragon's personality, I would think that it has an air of ancient wisdom, or general aloofness for lesser beings. Something like Anivia, but more forceful. No idea what unique things could be done w/ a kit though, I'll leave that to you guys if you ever concept it.
Hmm, we'd want to avoid too many similarities with Janna if going that route. Doable I'd imagine, again some problems to solve though.

Anivia's a good reference point for that sort of background yeah, wouldn't be too worried about overlap there though, heaps of different ways to play on those sort of backgrounds/motives/personalities.
Sorry for the double post but.. what are the chances of a character like DotA's Rubick - namely, his penchant for Spellstealing? That sames very 'powerful draconic mage'..
Hmm, not sure on the technical side of things, suspect that's likely to fall into the very tricky to implement but not impossible category (would definitely need new tech, just not sure whether that'd be a very big job, massive job or impractical job).

Gameplay wise some really big risks r.e. balance, readability. Would need to special case a number of spells that just don't make any sense by themselves (e.g. Twitch's Expunge) too, to either do nothing or not be stealable in the first place (and would want to communicate that clearly of course).

Miscellaneous note: Apologies to those whose posts I've had to skip over, looks like even at this time of night keeping up completely with a thread's not feasible alas.
rotting/undead dragon from Shadow isles

Passive: like Threshes passive but adds AP and AD per orb/corpse pile (consuming dead creeps/champs to gain strength) Doesnt gain AD per level
Q Putrid bite: Bites target afflicting them with disease. Small up front, more long term DOT damage Bonus Damage by % for more DOTS
W Rotting breath: Short range cone marking targets hit, small up front, more long term DOT
E Flight of the damned: Short range leap, leaving behind a trail of noxius fumes, dealing a DOT, small damage on impact
R Plague: Self Centered AOE (same size as mumu) inflicts all targets with DOT, dealing bonus damage for more damage done by DOTS on the targets.


Play Style: Melee caster (like Diana) Goal is to get Dots on targets and deal lots of damage with a good R/Q combo timing. Definitely a critical mass champ that you cant engage for too long (jax darius)
Would definitely avoid any Shyvana overlap issues, some nice death knight/necromancer vibe in there as well. Would be inclined to rely a bit less on DoT effects though. They're good for the undead theme, they do lose out a bit on the powerful, intimidating, impactful front though (DoTs are harder to feel in game) and feel it would be a waste to make a dragon and not tap into that feeling where possible.
would it be female or male ?
or are we talking about something androgynous
Hadn't thought about that myself. Would be inclined to find the core concept first and then figure out what works best there. All else being equal male would give us a bit more contrast with Shyvana though which is unlikely to hurt.
I think he may have been referring to Lucian when he said Blade.
Ah, of course. Nothing I can pass on at the moment that Morello hasn't already mentioned though sorry. Got some stuff we need to address for him/the patch he'll be in and can't yet offer a timeframe on that, apologies.
Meddler, do you think a 'spellsteal' ability could make it in to an actual kit, or is it too difficult to make work?

Also, how do you feel about a more durable/bruiser-esque mage/caster as a dragon caster?
Spellsteal - see above.

If making a dragon caster I'd certainly expect it to be more durable than most of our casters tend to be - lot of visual and thematic expectations to meet. Would then need to compensate by adding a bit more weakness somewhere else on balance grounds of course (below average range for example).

Some form of flight/mobility also an important thematic element to capture in gameplay somewhere too if going for some form of flying/winged dragon, as a lot of people have suggested (lot of good dive/flight/swoop etc abilities being put forward here).
@meddler
Here's what I'm thinking, something like a shadow dragon champ. An extremely fast hit and run champion that could work well in the jungle or in a solo lane like top or mid. So an assassin jungler (I know there is a large amount of these but this is just something i'm typing on whim)

Passive: Every third or so auto attack dragon releases a burst of flame damageing enemies in a cone (scales ap?)

Q: Dragon lunges a short distance and takes a bit out of first unit hit and applies a stack of shadow. (I'm thinking nidalee's cat form pounce kinda distance maybe a little bit more)

W: Dragon takes to the air, while air born dragon gains (X) amount movement speed and attack speed (?)Basic attacks apply shadow stack on hit and healing a small amount

E: Dragon quickly strikes target (X) amount of times relies on shadow stacks, stacks up to (X)

R: (Now here's where I hit a snag, I'm not sure how this will work exactly)Dragon becomes a living shadow (Maybe he gains dodge like jax has when in this form but still takes reduced damage from abilities? Or maybe he gains a large amount of tenacity for chasing? Not really sure here) Or Becomes untargetable for (X) and gains (X)movement speed, movement speed bonus stacks with w?

Anyways if you made it this far thank you for listening (reading?) my incoherent babbling ^-^
Shadow dragon I could definitely see working. Shadow creature assassin I could also see working. Shadow assassin dragon though I'm less sure about, not sure assassin's necessarily a good fit with the sort of things a dragon lets you really play up. Having said that could be a cool chance to do something really different, would want to watch really carefully to make sure didn't end up using up a potential slot for a new dragon in the game and then not taking advantage of the dragon aspects available.

Hmm, might be some cool stuff with a champion with shadow dragon drawn powers you could do as well. Will have to ponder that.
Meddler, I cannot sleep. Tell me a bedtime dragon story in that sweet aussie voice of yours.
Once there was a happy dragon. He was...

Wait, aussie voice? Sigh, not sure if deliberate troll or unintentional troll (New Zealander here). Note to self: Troll the void creature Xelnath.

Also I think it would be badass if a dragon could evoke a feeling of transformation on the world around him. E.g. Could make mud spikes reach out of a wall permanently or cause an avalanche that makes the river flood the rest of the map.

I also know this isn't possible in our engine. Cheers
So uh, you just offered to rewrite our game code to do impossible, wonderful things right?

On a more serious note, agreed, some form of world impacting ability would be a great fit. A dragon could be a great candidate for a global ability of some form, would be a bit worried about game health implications though, our existing globals/semi globals have been challenging at times.
Shadow Dragon

Not specifically evil, but the magics it has access to are looked down upon by other races for being dark in nature. Would have likely have some kind of fear effect. It's visual effects should have a sinister feel, with lots of dark purples and blacks (assuming that doesn't step on Shyvana's skin theme). Possibly some "lit from within" sort of orb things.





On a somewhat related note.... Does this mean the design team is willing to do things that aren't strictly humanoid again? Because I'm kind of tired of the endless parade of humans and near-humans that's been going on since.... Riven?
There is definite interest in doing some distinctly non humanoid characters. Can't say anything on timeframe, just that it's something on our minds too.
The dragon this game needs:

Attachment 754516
Well, there's just no way I can argue with that.
Yo meddles. If I polish up some of my design documents (they are too long for the forums) would you be interested in reading them? One of them is a flying mounted champion (mount undecided, but my vision was a Giant Lord of the Rings style Eagle until you guys made Quinn) which is what I wanted to talk to you about. If you are interested, where should I send them?
I'm happy to provide feedback on concise/concise ish ideas on the forums, particularly since that way it's possible to get a discussion going with a bunch of people. Apologies, but I just lack the time to do one on one feedback on concepts with people through other channels at the moment.
Any thoughts on an asian style dragon? Like a giant ocean-god dragon from Ionia?
Would allow us to create an Ionian creature which would be nice since while we've got a bunch of Ionian champs they're all human/humanoid. Also seen a few people suggest something along those lines in this thread which is also good, think there's some cool stuff we could do there that's pretty different to the standard western dragon tropes but still captures some of the same fantasy.

That's me done for the night folks, thanks for the discussion and ideas, lot of cool stuff here!

Edit: Whoops, few posts snuck in between me getting to the end of the thread and posting things. I'll pop back in tomorrow to follow up on those/talk a bit more if time permits.


More from Lyte

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Could also do something like "You had the best CS this game!" or "you gathered the most gold this game!" or "you dealt the most damage!" or "you had the highest number of kills!"
Granted, these stats would be evident by checking the stats screen, but this is in the same vein of "congratz, you did something well!"
There's definite potential value in the idea of celebrating more personal wins for players--the key is the execution.
Hey there Lyte, I just wanted to ask if perma bans are still being handed out? Or are you just extending the time punishment that a player receives when punished by the tribunal?
Right now, permanent bans are still being handed out as a last resort. We don't hand them out very often anymore now that Restricted Chat Mode and Behavioral Alerts are live.
Prisoner's Island, eh? Sounds like a good name for the current U.S. penal system! Zing for the terrible political joke no one will care about.
Anyways Lyte, I sort of wanted to ask you about your stance on this supposed "elo hell", or perhaps "divisional hell" now, that people keep talking about. Do you think, with your scientific mind and massive amounts of crunched data, that it exists? What effect does it have on the behavior of both players that might think they are stuck in it and upon the community as a whole? Does it make you sad as a psychologist to have seen such a concept seemingly spread like a virus no one can cure through the scores of players in our community? And...other than those questions, do you have any other thoughts on elo hell that you'd like to get off your chest by typing it all out in this thread?
Also, thanks for all the hard work you and your team have done.
Mathematically, Elo/MMR Hell doesn't exist. We've done analyses over millions of players and players tend to always reach their 'true MMR' after about 150 games of Ranked; however, for a small number of players it may take up to 1000 games to reach their 'true MMR'--this is part of the problem and something we are trying to fix. Rioters like RiotSocrates are continuously working on the matchmaking algorithms to place players into the appropriate tiers even faster so that no players have to play up to 1000 games to reach their true MMR.

The second problem with Elo/MMR Hell is that we're dealing with a lot of cognitive biases. We once did a study that suggested that the average player believes their true MMR is 150 MMR higher than their current rating; it reminded me of a study I read where they surveyed an office and the average employee rated their performance as 'above average,' which is also statistically impossible.


Team Curse 1v1

 

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