New Void Fizz, [PBE]Yellow Trinket Not Available Until 1:55, FQC Discussion, Various VUs and Reworks, Frozen Heart Vs. Olaf Ult

Important: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 3/1/2014 - Kassadin Changes
Important: The Reasons we Play League of Legends


New Void Fizz Pic

One more image of Fizz's Void Skin was shown, this time by @RiotTheBaron, after yesterday's announcement at the LCS.


[PBE] Yellow Trinket Not Available Until 1:55 

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

I was playing a game with a buddy and we noticed that the yellow trinket ward is not usable until 1:55, whereas on live it's available at 1:30. I've played a number of games since then and it's always the same. I assume this is a bug, but if it is something that riot is testing I really hope they take it away; it takes away all of the strategy of early game warding because only the support can afford other wards and at 1:55 everyone is leashing a buff or in lane so it's kinda out of the way to place strategic wards. Also it makes early game plays like invades even harder with no early game vision, which I assume is not riot's intention since right now early game strategies like that are not really viable and it seems like something they'd want to allow players to do a little more easily.

Change is intentional.

We interviewed several of the european and korean teams in the competitive level - and general consensus among them was that a 2 minute trinket timer would enhance early game strategy and lead to a better invasion phase. Granted, that's their best guess and well as ours - so there's definitely the possibility that we're just flat out wrong.

However, since this isn't something that's easy to test in most environments, we'll just have to see how the pros handle the change and whether or not the behavior is intuitive.


[PBE] Frost Queen's Claim Discussion

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

How does 80% MS Slow fail to scale?

If you're going to pitch the idea that Talisman's 30% MS is a scaling factor - then it seems logical to then apply that to FQC and realize that the 80% Slow is a scaling factor.

I have played with the rework of this item and have a few comments I would like to add.

  • I think that the CDR that the item gives could use a small buff. I would recommend increasing the CDR it gives to 15%. The reasoning behind this is that most champions that would pick this item up are AP champions that likley already have 5% CDR from masteries. This would give a compelling reason to pick it up on those champions as those champions are then only 20% CDR away from the CDR cap. 20% CDR is a lot easier to get in items that 25% is.

  • I do like the idea of giving the item some AP scaling on its effects to some degree. It would add a lot of added benefits to supports that picked it up and then built some AP.

I think that it is in need of a buff of some sort. Right now, there seems to be little reason to get this item as the supports fully upgraded gold item over items like Talisman of Ascension. I see that as a sign unbalance.

There's a couple fundamental flaws with the support items right now - the changes to the support items recently are not intended to fix them - but merely clean them up and offer a bit more variety.

We can't realistically make them parity because of a lot of factors (less AP supports / Haste active / etc.) We have some long term plans for this item line that we're working on - but along the way we discovered some fun mini-game cleanups and that's why we shipped the changes that we had in 4.3.

We're aware that this isn't a long term thing - but we're trying to work on some more fun stuff for AP support.
--------

While valid - this isn't a terribly great argument for improving FQC - it's much more of an argument that Talisman of Ascension isn't a balanced item at all and way too broad - which is definitely true.

It merely highlights the original problem of the system - that Talisman of Ascension's active will warp any reasonable considerations regarding support itemization - buffing FQC won't actually resolve this issue, as Talisman's active is too generalized to actually be fit within one specific playstyle.

The suggestions to add 1 to 2k gold worth of AP scaling on the item will mostly likely create another overpowered item in another circumstance by making it just as broad and uncontrollable because now FQC needs to be a burst/harass/cc tool to compete with the utility/team ms/engage tool.

The most likely outcome from that change warps the game in a way to make it questionable as you've now given everyone the potential another massive AP ratio, favoring raw mages over AP supports or anyone who can build a ton of AP.

I can see that you want to facilitate a certain pattern in AP magic damage - but most likely, you'll invalidate supports because another class (Mages and Hybrid Magic Attackers) actually takes advantage of that pattern far far better.

I agree with most of your analysis on slows vs. hastes but a couple specific minor points:

Getting close enough to use it for engage is just not feasible, as a poke support.
The active range is 850 + 225 splash radius. While this is certainly a hard to land skill-shot - unfeasible isn't really the word as it's comparable to most other support engagement ranges.
The numbers them self are higher on talisman. 80% slow decaying over 2 seconds means you on average have 40% over 2 seconds, talisman is 40% over 3 seconds. Also having very high % means you fall under the caps, which makes the numbers be smaller than what they actually are.

A couple minor points here: Slows are multiplicative effects while Hastes are additive effects. There are also caps in both directions (hastes and slows.)

Depending on the character, a 30% slow and a 40% haste will have vastly different effects because a haste will both reduce your movement speed and any movement speed from haste effects as well as any MS% from items.

However, any haste effects lose relative value when combined with other haste effects - which makes Talisman of Ascension best on characters without any intrinsic haste effects of their own. So a character with %MS from items will receive less benefits from Talisman because it only amplifies their flat movement speed.

In general, this makes it hard for to directly compare any hastes to any slows in terms of raw numbers.

FQC is 600+400 radius according to wiki.

The wiki has not been updated to reflect the new FQC active parameters which is an 850 ground targeted skillshot with an explosion - total area of the effect is in fact longer than most support engages.

Capture and initiate are two sides of the same coin, I agree and capture tends to be on the weaker of the two - in agreement with that - but from your arguments, it appears as if you are having trouble formulating what you want it to do.

Biggest problem IMO with FQC is that it doesn't fulfill the fantasy of what kind of utility you bring. When you go FQC you want bring harassment based damage, and most probably you're a support that is good at that.

I disagree with this. Spellthief's Edge is certainly geared towards harassment based damage, agreed but there are a ton of items that are 'harassment' based damage.

FQC fundamentally needs to fulfill a more support line of focus because if you truly wanted harassment based damage, get a Lich Bane / DFG / Nashor's Tooth, etc.

However, there are a large number of problems that prevent you from doing so - namely, that you can't start on a lot of those items nor do those items build up smoothly enough such that you can still fulfill your support duties - those items have crippling build paths that pretty much gut your ability to support while you build up to them.

This is a dual problem in that the AP scalings on supports are geared towards super late game - and don't reflect the needs of the mid-game in a lot of ways. And this is a problem with item components along the way not giving supports enough breadth to actually perform some core functions - hence why you go for the more generalized support items after lane.

This is a problem we're trying to address right now because there's not enough components in the game that matter - which is something we're trying to dig through.

General Design

You have a lot of statements formulating what you don't want it to do - essentially, I want something other than ToA - but not a lot of statements that state what you want out of it. Usually when you're facing something like this - identify which character or playstyle style you are trying to directly target and figure out what they're lacking.

A lot of difficulties on feedback is because people are fundamentally shy about stating that 'I want item X to be good on champion Y' which ends up muddying their core statement to be mostly circuitous and dancing around actual needs.

Then you have the other crowd who stresses that 'I want item X to only be good for champion Z' which ends up mostly being an argument against Mana and 'wasted' stats.

There's a portion of this is that you're fundamentally asking for something that might not be solved on the item-level. You'd have to ask the question - why isn't AP good enough to enhance the harass patterns of the harass based supports.

The AP stat itself doesn't seem to be doing enough to enhance the harassment fantasies of said supports and thus there's an additional problem of putting pressure on the active/passive to do double/triple duty.


IronStylus On Various VUs and Reworks

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

I want to say that Cho'Gath might be relatively close to the top, though I can't remember off of the top of my head. He's not in the top immediate 5, but maybe a bit after that. What I think the best thing about the prospect of a Cho VU is that we just got Vel'Koz out there. We have a defined look for the void due to that champion. While in the past we were sorta like.. "Well what is the void? Just bugs and purple?" we at least have a more refined precedent with Vel'Koz. Yes, actually, the Void is very much "bugs and purple", and maybe that's not really touching on what the void is in and of itself, but it's a reliable trope set we're now sorta locked into.

I'd like us to go back and reexamine Cho now that Vel'Koz is complete. I think there's a lot of form language, color and other notes that we can incorporate. Right now Cho is preeeettty much Violator from Spawn crossed with a giant Zergling, or at least was highly inspired by back in the day. I think we need to dive back in and come up with some more unique things to work into him.

Right now, he's a big confusion of arms and protrusions. I don't know if that'd change (I've seen a couple of concepts lying around where he has fewer than current) but I don't know if we could get away with lopping off any arms/claws. At the very least, we have to reduce some of the noise. That might come from just giving his various appendages a bit of differentiation in terms of size. We'll see. Nothing concrete yet. I do consider him an "easy win" however in that a) he's a pretty straightforward character b) he doesn't need to be thematically re-defined and c) we've got some great standards set by Kha'zix and Vel'Koz to refer to in terms of quality and style.

Please inform yourself here about reworks/visual update/overhaul/texture update for Champions.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion#Upcoming_champion_reworks

Other than that, I've read a Riot Post that they said that there will be most likely a Cho'Gath texture update, because he just looks old - but not totally outdated.

However, there are currently more Champions that needs a rework/visual update - by all means, they need first help, then Cho'Gath can come.

Eh, not in love with this list here. It's very anecdotal. Then again, I know the actual list so.. I guess it's decent enough assumptions, but it's off the mark in many ways. I wouldn't point anyone towards it honestly. It's a little deceptive.

Is Kayle on that list?

I'm hoping you'd work on her soon because let's be honest, Leona looks awesome and kayle seems to have a few similarities. Strength, armor, similar color scheme, etc. TBH, Kayle seems like a champ you'd easily nail all the thematic notes on.

She's on there, but I don't think will be any time in the immediate future. My personal preference would be to overhaul her and Morgana simultaneously and find out where the hell they really fit in and design them accordingly.
--------------

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Many people have asked about the state of Evelynn's Visual Update. But as things have progressed, a statement was made that Evelynn will not be just getting a Visual Update, but a Thematic Relaunch. I am curious what is really the difference.

The question is.. what the hell is she?

Right now she's a dominatrix, I guess. She's also this sorta wraith/assassin/seductress. Whatever she is, it's not clear. I think we can dig into her a bit and see what tidbits are there that can really make a compelling character. I think there's potential, but right now the whole thing about her back-story is "mystery". To me that's actual fertile ground. Oh, she's from the Shadow Isles? Cool, we can use that. Maybe she's the product of some curse given to her parents. Maybe she's half human, half a product of the Shadow Isles. Plenty of possibilities. We'd like to explore those and get an idea then execute from there. Whichever creative direction we take, it'll explain the way she looks. My hunch is that whatever we do she's probably going to need a traditional skin. I don't see us being able to rationalize how she currently looks now.

I think one of the most important "themes" of Evelynn is how ambiguous she is. There's a lot of contrast, in her character. Even if her current model is in shambles, it's not hard to figure she's supposed to be alluring, not in a "gorgeous" kind of way, but rather in the "seductress" genre. Yes, she's breathtaking, and would appeal to a lot males (and females), playing on their fantasies, if only she wasn't always invisible. She's a beauty no one gets to see (except on battle, but I'll come back to that later). The other thing that strikes me is how "precious" she appears: she obviously likes to take care of herself (I mean, the Heels), and, much like Cassiopeia and LeBlanc, uses her charms when dealing with other people. The contrast here, is how savage she is in battle: this precious lady is full of hate, feeds on the pain of her opponnents, doesn't use blades or axes or whatever to strike and ennemies, but rather uses her bare claws, and relentlessly pursues her target.

If her dominatrix theme were to go (and I would personally wouldn't be against it), I hope this contrast will stay. She's one of the most mysterious champions in the League, and there are many options available: is she, as someone else's said, a demon (Succubus?), an hybrid, or even a Daarkin? Was she a poor woman, left by her lover, who then went to the Shadow Isles to seek vengeance, only to become cursed? Maybe now she's relentlessly pursuing all unfaithful men, punishing them for what she sees as the ultimate crime (hence the "Widowmaker" title). Maybe the opposite, and she's just a kind of twisted creature from the Isles, looking to feed on all dark feelings in a "human" heart.

So many possibilites... I'm really looking forward to what you'll do with her :)

Mysterious is great, but we tended to use that a lot back in the day. I feel it's sort of an easy way out of explaining how she does or doesn't fit into the world.

Either way, yes, I agree, there are a lot of opportunities. I'm sure she'll stay on the sadistic side of things. I do like the Daarkin/half-Daarkin/whatever idea, I also like her being of some sort of relation to the Shadow Isles. Either way, I think her core themes will remain in tact, it's more about how we express and support those when we do an overhaul.
----------

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Now that vekkers  is out, one thing I noticed about him is his tentacles are a lot nicer than cass's  tail. It bends and flows much better. Also her base skin compared to the newer jade fang skin seems very outdated. In fact as I look at other newer champs, it just doesn't hold up at all in terms of texture style matching the new look of things.

She needs one.

Vekkers.. heh.

She's on the list, but she's pretty far down. Yeah, she's got a nasty kink in her tail.

If we were doing a real surface analysis, I'd say we could do a model/texture update to her and could call it good, but I know that our animators look at her and cringe. I have a feeling that once she is a priority, she'll be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch. New model, new rig, the whole shebang.

Just to clarify she'd essentially be the same except with newer assets right? Because I think except for her tail she looks fine, maybe her base skins needs some adjustments (not the biggest fan on the headdress especially the harsh green texture) but otherwise she's really good imo. I have Mythic Cassiopeia and I just find it hard to imagine her needing anything more than a fix to her tail.

I don't know at this point. Right now she's just literally an Egyptian-queen-looking-snake-Medusa-lady. That's pretty arbitrary. I'd like to think we could find a reason to make her look like she does, or move her in a direction that makes sense.
-------------

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

what can we expect from the inevitable Poppy VU?

She's not actively being worked on. We're possibly considering her as a candidate for late this year, but no guarantees. Here's pretty much what I'd want to see:

That's some fan art done by one of our former, and sorely missed, artists Kienan.

It would roughly equate to solidify Poppy in the Yordle space and give her (as I think is what's appropriate for all Yordles) slightly more animalistic features. I'd say she could skirt slightly more animal in an official version, but I generally like where this is at.

I think it's ok that we could say male Yordles get scruffy, almost puppy/rodent sort of vibes to them, while females have much less hair (maybe a peachfuzz amount) and are a bit more divergent from the males.

Also, this gives her actual anatomy! That's a plus. We did the same thing with Heimer and will have to do such for the rest of the Yordles.

About female Yordles; is blue like THE skin colour for them or is it a coincidence with Poppy, Tristana and kind of Lulu?

Just a hunch, I'm guessing it's a coincidence. I think you can probably have any sort of color on them honestly. I guess dark, cool colors tend to work well on them.
-----------

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Blitzcrank is one of the few remaining champions that defy this look, and i'm preeeeety sure he's up for a VU at some point. When he gets a VU eventually, make sure to keep the feeling that he wasn't ever designed for combat! (This is currently shown in his awkward duck waddling movement animation, and just as awkward outline in general. He looks like he was made for heavy lifting, not combat, and that is as it should be.

Thought number two: Have you guys considered making a champion that is entirely a creation of Viktor's? The juxtaposition of the younger, more hopeful Viktor's philosophy in creating Blitzcrank with his current design philosophy ("Function over form") would be incredible to see in a new champion, Blitzcrank's "brother." (or sister.) I am aware that the battle-cast aesthetic is somewhat representative of this, but I feel that the requirement to hold to another champion's outline does limit it in some respects.

Thought three: Caitlyn's hat is both iconic and... well, kinda stupid. Have you thought about making it a 'gadget hat', with a scope attached? When she does her ult, she could even have a visor of some sort drop down. This would allow her to have a sort of hovering 'virtual scope' in place of what she has now. Transfering the 'gadgetry utility' from her gun to her hat and uniform would allow you to clean up the gun's look and shape and keep it in line with the "Tomorrowland-punk" feel. She could have things like an "auto-reloader" robot arm attached to her side that takes ammo clips from her waist and reloads her weapons for her, or stabilizers in her leggings that come down when she uses her ult.

I like that term. Pretty cool!

I think the idea of Blitz not looking like he's meant for combat is pretty key. There's an aspect that makes him sorta feel industrial in a way, not like he's some murder bot. He's somewhere between Commander Data and the Iron Giant, I think we can hit that home a bit better.

Not really, at least not yet. There's some other holes in those stories with Viktor that we'd like to see filled first. I think there's more characters to add to that chunk of story before we insert a straight addition of a Viktor-bot, or whatever. That said, I think maybe we could add in some things that he's helped create, or people he's helped facilitate. There's some ideas I have there. Maybe somewhere down the line there could be room for.. basically Blitzcrank's nemesis.. or something.. which would be pretty cool. But I think we have some robot saturation with Battlecast stuff at the moment.

While I think Cait needs an update, I really am not terribly fond of making her too gadgety. Some stuff on her that helps her reload, cool. Maybe some utility there and in the gun, but honestly, I think we need to move away from the "contraptiony" Piltover stuff, and really dig into that sleeker hextech look. Whatever it might be. I also think Heimer is covering gadget-stuff coming out of people's heads for now :P

Gadgety is fine, but doesn't it seem that out of all the Piltover characters, Caitlyn would be the one not so into the tech world. Yes her gun can look more like its from Piltover but thats about it in my opinion. Caitlyn doesn't seem like the type to be into the tech side of things. More like an old school cop, chase em, bag em and tag em, type of sheriff. Thats just me

I'm pretty in line with this thinking. I don't think Cait's defining feature is gadgetry. I see her as more straight up badass proper cop.


Frozen Heart Vs. Olaf's Ult

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Does Olaf ult prevent Frozen Heart from affecting him?
It does. The Frozen Heart debuff's applied just like any other slow, so slow immunity or reduction effects will make you immune to it or cause it to fall off faster respectively.
Hum, does that mean while Yi is ulting randuis and FH AS speed reduction don't affect him?
Correct.
whats your opinion of vel'koz atm powerwise? @medler
It's pretty early days yet given people are still learning him/we've only got a few days worth of play to consider. So far though he seems to be in an ok spot.

That's just personal opinion though, the folks on the live balance team who are following him in more detail might be aware of some issues I'm not.
But it's a passive aura. How can you make it fall of faster? It doesn't disappear once you get out of range?
Aura's do have a very brief linger period. A slow duration reduction (Tenacity) will occasionally give you a little bit of benefit against them if spending time around their max range as a result.
You really should separate different effects into their own slot. Ex: Exhaust being divided into 'damage reduction/movement speed reduction/attack speed reduction' or wither into 'movement speed reduction/attack speed reduction' there's no reason that a champion who removes/is immune to slows wouldn't be affected by attack speed reduction.
We do split some debuffs precisely to allow that sort of control. Yi/Olaf can have their damage reduced by Exhaust for example, even though they're immune to the slowing part of the spell. Champions who are immune to movement speed slows also being immune to attack speed slows by contrast is an intended thing.
30

Comments

  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes