MF's Changes Planned For 4.5, Update On Rengar's Rework, Summoner Icons On The Forums, Texture Improvement Process

IMPORTANT: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 3/8/2014 - Slight Heimer Portrait and Q Change, Item Changes

Lee Sin's Retune

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Hey all,

As some of you may have heard, there is a Lee Sin retune going on and I’m currently working on it. I just wanted to tell you about some of our planned changes before they hit the PBE (so we can talk about why we’re making the changes).

Our specific goal with Lee Sin is to solve the following problems as we see them:

  1. The ranged melee tanky-DPS assassin mage tank-support jungler Lee Sin has the full kit to single-handedly dominate early to mid game. We like that he’s strong here, but he’s so overwhelming at times that it makes him go from someone who needs to be consistently skilled to make big plays to someone who wins certain phases of the game with the safety of his high base stats.
  2. Lee Sin falls off really hard late game, so this puts even more pressure on him to win (or snowball his entire team) before that happens. There are some champions who follow this power curve, but none as extreme as Lee Sin (maybe pre-rework Garen). Letting Lee only ‘play’ half the game (in an unbalanced way) so he doesn’t become useless in the other half is really unhealthy (for both Lee and his opponents).

Now let me walk you through all the changes (note: THESE ARE NOT FINALIZED. We’re still working on them!):


This is the core change for Lee Sin’s late game power level. The huge attack speed buff at later levels means Lee Sin can deal a lot of sustained damage in team fights without relying so completely on his ability damage.

• Attack Speed bonus increased to 40/60/80/100% (at levels 1/6/11/16) from 40% at all levels

Sonic Wave

This is actually a small early game power shift (we focused more on Tempest, so see that below). Something important to note – it seems like a huge nerf to Lee Sin’s damage, but it’s really only a 10 damage nerf at level 1 (with the right runes / masteries) because it scales with total AD and not bonus AD. Changing the ratio to total AD means Lee Sin will snowball less when he’s far ahead while also being able to still deal some damage when he’s really behind. At mid game this is actually a damage buff if he’s ranking up Sonic Wave.

• Damage changed to 15/35/55/75/95 (+0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9 Total AD) from 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD)

Resonating Strike

The 8% missing health change doesn’t really work on tanks (which is originally what we designed it for), even if it seems to be built as an HP shredding ability. This change just makes it clear that you should use Sonic Wave / Resonating Strike when you want more damage and makes its use less confusing.

• Damage changed to 15/35/55/75/95 (+0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9 Total AD) from 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD)

• Now deals up to 50% bonus damage (150% total damage) based on the target’s missing Health instead of 8% of the target’s missing Health


We had a big discussion on this topic! I’ll go deeper on this later on but, for now, I’ll just throw out some high level thoughts: ward hopping isn’t something we saw coming in League, but when we did we thought it was really cool and had fun gameplay attached to it. Still, it gives Lee Sin a lot of free mobility (which can be really frustrating, especially because wards are invisible and he can basically set up a “safety net” of wards in the jungle to hop around), and we wanted to reduce a little of that frustration. There’s also the problem with Lee using his defensive movement ability just to get in position for his offensive movement ability (Sonic Wave), and he wasn’t really paying a cost for doing it (unlike Katarina or Jax who have to give up a damaging ability and can only move once). Anyway, we wanted to increase the cost of using Safeguard offensively for more tradeoffs in when Lee can use it.

• Cost increased to 100 from 50

• Refunds 50 energy if cast on an allied champion (including self)


With the late game power buff on Flurry, we needed to reduce some damage somewhere, and Tempest’s high utility was where we looked. These numbers might still be too high, but the general idea is that if you level up Tempest while building tanky on Lee Sin, the damage difference won’t be really big. If you build lots of AD on Lee Sin, you’ll definitely see less damage on Tempest (which we made up for in Flurry).

• Damage changed to 25/50/75/10/125 (+0.6 total AD) from 60/95/130/165/200 (+1.0 Bonus AD)

• Now deals physical damage instead of magic


This debuff used to update only once every 1 second, so it was a long and very powerful slow. We made it a little more gradual and fixed a bug where it used to not work well with Tenacity (as in it was affecting them a little too much).

Dragon’s Rage

While this is a significant damage nerf on the first part of Dragon’s Rage, we really wanted to separate its use in utility versus damage. If you’re using Dragon’s Rage to kick a high-value target to your team, you should be giving something up like the AoE-damage and crowd control utility. If you decide to kick someone into the enemy team, you’ll get more rewards through the knockup and high damage (it doesn’t have diminishing returns per target hit).In regards of the damage nerf, Dragon Rage’s old high values combined with the Flurry buffs would make him insane in duels, so we had to reduce that power. I can’t stress how much the new Flurry helps Lee Sin’s damage at late game!

• Damage changed to 50/150/250 (+0.75/0.875/1.0 Total AD) from 200/400/600 (+2.0 Bonus AD)

• For each enemies target collide with would make target take 25/75/125 (+0.375/0.4375/0.5 Total AD) extra damage

Miss Fortune's Changes Planned For 4.5

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

no, they were just in testing on the pbe for that patch (i.e., i needed data, but didn't have enough time to finish/ship her). i've done a bit of cleanup since then, and the current plan is to put her back on the pbe once it rolls over to 4.5 with the intent to ship her in that patch.
i'm pretty excited about, tbh~
I'd love to play some Miss Fortune. Just please, please don't Skarner her. Please.
i don't know exactly what that means, but when she's back on the pbe i'll have a thread active— you're welcome to give me feedback/criticisms if you feel like she's in scorpion country. :3
They use the search to look for threads relevant to the stuff they work on.
^ this.
i try to look at the forums at least once a day when i can, but during crazy busy weeks it'll sometimes be days before i can comfortably make time for it. during those times, i usually search for threads that directly call me out (like this one) or are related to stuff i've worked on recently (like when i was working on ahriashemorgana, support items, etc). i felt pretty timely finding this one within 10 hours!

Update On Rengar's Rework

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

A few more interesting updates, we're really starting to narrow down the changes to the last few things we are focusing on.

-The movement speed coming out of ult now starts higher and decays over the buff duration, this really gives the impactful burst of speed that his ult needed. 

-E now gives Rengar a movement speed boost towards the target hit by bola - this gives him a bit more stickiness because he needs more time on target, and it also creates a decision point when using E. "Should I E when I am on top of the target or wait until they are farther away to get the slow?"

-The unique trinket active was just not proving very useful and was also creating some confusion because of the amount of mechanics added. People generally just wanted a ward or sweeper. We changed bonetooth back to yellow, red, and blue versions. (you keep stacks if you swap types mid game).

-Other than this, Riot Jag and I have been hammering away at damage, cooldown, defenses and lots of number tuning. 
I'd assume it bogart'd some code from Vayne's passive and volibear's Q - You gain bonus MS when moving towards something that has the bola slow on it.
This is correct.
Excuse me, sir, but is this in ADDITION to the slow OR replacing it? A bola that doesn't slow strikes me as very, very odd.
It's in addition, though we lowered the slow values by 10% to compensate for the added power.
How will the viability of jungle Rengar suffer from this change? It seems like it will hurt him very much, as it eliminates basically all of his ganking power. Combined with bola being a skillshot, it will be harder than ever to pull off successful ganks. Include the fact that ult only grants ferocity after leaving stealth and no MS during stealth, this doesn't look good for him. I was really excited about the new Wriggles which works very well withRengar in his current state, but this looks like it will ruin it.
Slow down! (I'll stop doing that now)

We're still testing him in both jungle and top lane. He's probably more optimized for top lane in his current form, but he still has very potent post-6 ganks from the jungle. I think he needs to set up a little better with the teammates he is ganking for compared to live Rengar, but he's probably better when he has more space to work with because of how Bola works now.

Summoner Icons On The Forums

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Greetings summoners,

As you've likely noticed, Summoner icons have arrived on the forums! Begone question marks!

As you may know, at Riot we participate in a periodic hackathon known as Thunderdome. During the latest Thunderdome, a couple of us did some tinkering to make your in-client summoner icon accessible on the web. This service opened up the possibility of displaying your summoner icons within the vBulletin forums.

But wait, there's more! This service also provides you with a url you can use to load your summoner icon on external avatar services.

Here's how it works: use your region and summoner name as a part of the following link.{region}/{summoner name}.png

Here's an example:

Alternatively, simply right click your summoner icon on one of your posts and select "Copy image url."

A couple notes:

  • This service will automatically update as you change your icon in-client
  • Allow up to an hour for changes to show up on the web
  • This service will not affect any pre-existing avatars (i.e. Rioters / Wrenchmen)

Why didn't something like this come out sooner? We didn't want to sacrifice the already-shaky stability of vBulletin. As our tech continued to evolve though, new services became available that allowed this specific feature to be developed without putting the forums at risk.

Let us know if you have any issues or questions.  Thanks!

I will remain forever anonymous 
We've found some instances with certain characters in summoner names can cause the fallback to the old "?" icon. 

We're actively looking to resolve that. When it is resolved, your avatar URL will reflect the appropriate summoner profile icon.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

Texture Improvement Process

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

As far as I understand in a simplified way... every model you see in-game is made out of... digital clay, in order for everything NOT to look gray, you have to coat it in colors, this coating is referred to as the texture of the model. 

When you create a texture, you're literally creating the icing of the cake, though you have to take in account the crevices and bumps in the model for it to look good. When you see TU's like Rammus' or Anivia, you can see how his model is the exact same old but the painting job is much better done, I'm guessing that's because Riot's artists have been learning and improving in this process.

Vel'Koz received a TU in the last PBE cycle making him look more defined and less blurry, but his model is still the same :P
That was a better explanation than anything I could have given. Thanks.
Yay RiotForScience! glad I could help, though I'm guessing there's much much much more to it than that... like for example how did you guys learn to achieve better textures? new artist? new tech? experience? trial and error?

Also when I've had the chance to look at textures it's mostly just a JPG square image of all the coloring splayed along, like you can tell what's a face and what's the hand because of shades but shape is just all over the place... do you guys assign how the texture applies to the model? or is it automatic? I have some experience with 3dsmax and keeping textures in place or in right scale can be a pain sometimes.
I can jump in on some of this. Most of the improvements in texture quality are from a level up of the artist's skills through trial and error, training, teaching and getting consistency through visual docs and things like that. The tech behind it is mostly all the same for textures. 

The process of applying the texture to the model is called UVing. The artist will unfold the polygons of the 3d model onto a 2d plane, almost like a papercraft cut out. They can then paint directly onto the texture and it'll show up on their 3d model! They also use tools like 3D Coat which let's you paint directly onto the 3d model!


  • #75 JJJester

    I don't mean to bash or disrespect anyone at RIOT or any fans, I would simply like to speak my peace and frustration about this rengar rework. I'm currently in PLAT and I have a higher elo fellow rengar main who we agree on with a lot of things as far as rengar goes and we discuss changes etc. First, for the past year our dear rengar has been nothing but nerfed periodically and consistently. Second, his laning is completely non-existant and rengar gets outplayed due to simple BASE stats and getting out sustained by other champions - his trading is absolutely terrible even though I still play him and take advantage of his real strengths (empowered abilities).
    As far as the new rework, my friend who hasn't stopped playing rengar and toying around with strategies on pbe, tells me he's even worse than before. Trading in lane is impossible due to yet ANOTHER (bunch of nerfs) on Q which was his "last-stand" after all the nerfs prior, now its shattered to the ground. You can't trade effectively against higher elo in lane, you can't split push or it is "not encouraged" although a VERY viable strategy. Personally, I love split pushing in this meta but when we have the advantage I love wrecking squishies in team fights, you guys already established that now but you're killing the groove. Although nerfed in live he is still some-what playable - now hes becoming but a shadow of the hunter he should be. My opinion - leave Q the way it is in LIVE, rest of the changes seem to give him situational buffs which he desperately needs anyway (just no more nerfs!).
    Theres over 110 champions in this game and everyone picks/mains their own play style. Well mine is rengar and I do not appreciate this rework and the way rengar is headed - STILL not lcs approved, or at least we haven't seen him (must be a reason) and STILL not a priority pick over other junglers/top laners. I'm very upset, maybe since he's still getting worked on its not too late to make him better overall and include the raw power he deserves instead of squirmishly including him back to the roster with 0-0% chance of being viable. Again I would like to underline that I understand you guys take pride in these reworks and work very hard for us players and is much appreciated but this simply doesn't seem like a good change at all - seems like fun for a while then back to useless. Frustrating. No offense. Strongly opinionated. Thanks for reading.

  • #72 zodiakal

    what about jax he can buy 2 item then tank and still take the crap out of everyone

  • #70 Basinator

    Is the early game nerf really that hard? From what I read about it it doesn't seem like that (like "20 dmg less on lv1").

  • #68 vincenzioo

    Gj riot better nerf one of the most balanced and highest skill champs in game while things as vi and elise freely walk further untouched. How is the flurry buff a compensation if you make all scales total AD. Now players will buy only tank items so yeah very painful 100auto attack dmage without eveb armor calculated. Honestly champions like vi need way more urgent nerfs.

  • #69 btgangsta

    Rengar has high skill cap ........ ? Vi and Elise aren't "Overpowered", the leesin change is necessary since he does Jack sh*t late game.

  • #71 vincenzioo

    Who is talking about rengar and yeah lee has a high skillcap . Tell me one other jungler with a higher skill cap than lee? And there is a reason why vi gets instabanned every game, she carries way harder than lee in soloQ with a more reliable ult.

  • #73 Smizzy

    The reason Vi gets permabanned is because of her team fight control. Her initiation/peel/assassination potential is through the roof, if Vi builds dmg she can just ult someone and get a guaranteed combo off on them shreding their armor, applying CC and taking them to half hp. This retune for Lee Sin is meant to cut his early game power in trade for a team fight capability to let him keep fighting even after the early game. Hopefully if this is done well, lee sin wont insta-lose games if they go past 35 minutes.

  • #74 vincenzioo

    But how did they change his viability in late? Giving a buff to flurry doesnt mean anything because lee sin will now be builded as a tank cuz of the scaling changes so he wont have strong autoattacks... also his ult is only stronger if you hit a lot of people which is barely doable in lategame teamfights even by the best players in lcs. I dont really think they made the right lategame changes.k

  • #67 Moongrovv

    pls dont

  • #66 Arcane_Azmadi

    Lee Sin getting considerably nerfed? GOOD. He's one of my three most hated champions (the other 2 being Nidalee and Blitzcrank).

    Gotta laugh at the way the Rioter pretends not to understand what we mean when we say we don't want them to "Skarner" MF.

    Last edited by Arcane_Azmadi: 3/9/2014 3:46:50 PM
  • #63 MasakanSolaris

    So basically no one will want to use lee sin any more since he cant burst anyone down anymore.

  • #65 Ramen

    People will play him differently now. It's not a total buzz kill

  • #59 XiXiS

    Finally, avatars at forum. I wanted that for so long. I didn't like to see question marks anywhere... / since I never play Lee Sin, changes to him aren't very important to me.

  • #57 Teronredoran

    Worked this out for a friend on steam, but basically with roughly 20 bonus AD(too lazy to check how much runes and masteries actually give, should be close enough) lee barely shifts at level 1, loses roughly 80 damage(second Q) at max level on average. With LW(Used it first since E is shifted to physical) his damage on E is reduced by 43, but the shift to physical probably means that doesn't change nearly as much, and his Q on average only loses 40 damage. With hydra and LW together, his Q actually starts gaining a little damage on average, but his E loses 166 damage(do not forget the shift to physical though). All of this means that with a single bonus auto no matter what build, lee gains damage.

    However, the above listed numbers don't include the R, since that's still more a utility spell than one most people use for damage. The losses for it are as followed for a level 18: base: 363 + 181 per other enemy hit after rework, 640 current(surpasses current at two enemies hit). With LW it's 403 + 201 per, 720 current. With LW and hydra it's 474 +239 per, and 870 current. So in all cases, you'll need to hit two enemies to make the new ult equal the old one. 

    TL:DR, it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, honestly, the two abilities hit the hardest are his W and his R. But it does seem to be a nerf, and not really change his early game in any serious way.


    Edit: think I missed out on adding about 20 damage in a few areas. Might come back and fix it later, but been doing math for too long and haven't had my morning caffine yet, so just keep that in mind.

    Last edited by Teronredoran: 3/8/2014 5:07:37 PM
  • #55 shindaiwa21

    Wow they really gutted Lee Sin.

    They claim to want to buff him, but they changed bonus AD to total AD ratios which makes no sense.  Bonus AD ratios allow base damages to stay under control, and have a champion scale well with items, while balanced total AD ratios generally reduce the late game power.

    The safeguard change will completely trash his offensive mobility, of a single target skillshot based bruiser assassin, cool.

    Cripple is livable, maybe having an AD scaling magic damage ability like it was a bit strong in laning, but top Lee wasnt even a problem.

    Ult Changes, prevent people from insec-ing with safeguard nerf, nerf the burst damage.  Now you basically have to insec an ADC through their entire team without safeguard to do what Lee did before, lol.

    Sounds like the death of one of league's most awesome highest skillcap champs.

  • #60 yoshiwaan

    You can still Q->Q->W->R and have 20 energy left over. It just does less damage unless they bowl through their own team.

    Other than that though he really does seem a lot worse. Attack speed is one of the absolute worst damage stats for a melee caster as they are always being kited and die if they build damage, standing around AAing isn't feasible unless he can kill tanks.

  • #48 Glazzy

    How could you do this to Lee sin, Honestly his been my main for 2 years. First of all you made his cripple to physicle damage? So now he definitely won't win his lane against a Renekton rushing Sunfire cape. Second is that you cut an absurd amount of damage from his ultimate? How is this ever going to help him in lategame, he will barely get through early game now if he relies on hitting his R on more than one enemy. Third is the W change? you already took away its armor that helped him in lategame, now you're making it 100 energy!? so that means if i want to get in position to land a Q that's all i can do? I mean First W to a Ward/minion. and then fire a Q and that's it? i can't even do more than that!? You sure helped lee sin in lategame, how will he ever reach carries?.. 

  • #49 GunPerfect

    They aren't final changes, they aren't even on PBE yet. Besides, I agree with about half of it maybe some of it is a little hefty but his R does a ton of damage when it was meant for more utility, although they nerfed it is still capable of doing damage, they buffed flurry like crazy which you REGAIN ENERGY WHEN YOU HIT SOMEONE WITH FLURRY and being able to hit faster means you'll restore energy faster as a lee sin main you seem to have not mentioned that. The ward jumping was incredibly crazy, although cool. 

    also all his skills scale of TOTAL ad now. Not beating Renekton rushing sunfire is more of a renekton problem than a lee sin problem. 

    Last edited by GunPerfect: 3/8/2014 1:35:00 PM
  • #52 ElMage21


  • #53 aTomic

    This isn't a Riot thread. This is Reign of Gaming. You're not talking to anyone.

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