MUCH More On Lee Sin's Retune
Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)
I think the most significant problem we have here is that the Flurry Attack Speed buff is really hard to understand on paper, making the changes as a whole feel like we are sapping the life from Lee.
Let’s approach the problem numerically first: Assume Lee Sin builds the most common bruiser/assassin build (which is AD/Armor Pen/tankiness etc. – items which support a pattern of quickly accessing the backline and surviving for a bit once there) in a game and he hits lv16. The PBE Lee Sin will have is 100%(his base AS)+45%(3% per level and he leveled up 15 times) +100%(new flurry)=245%(of original AS). Meanwhile, the Live Flurry values will leave Lee with 100%+45%+40%=185% of original AS. The difference here results in a 32.4% sustain damage increase from basic attacks if Lee can manage his passive in an ideal way. With so much more sustain damage, Lee Sin provides a higher damage threat to enemies after the first few seconds, without having to burst them as hard in the first one or two. It also means a 32.4% improved basic attack frame – landing auto attacks in between spells will be more feasible and more rewarding.
I think your simulation of Lee Sin in a late game team fight is based on the fact that the Live version of Lee Sin is really weak at that point. Considering all the tools he has, why is that, and how does it happen? In a world where Lee Sin can deal meaningful sustained damage at all points in the game, you no longer are relegated to just looking for an ideal initiation and then having 80% of your job done. He can still have that meaningful initiation power, but the power it brings becomes largely about positioning, and less about the burst. After this point, he can use his increased sustain damage to remain a legitimate threat to the enemy team.
Dragon’s Rage specifically is a really cool spell that provides a ton of fun gameplay, but as mentioned above, we really want to separate its use as utility versus damage.
The current proposed Dragon’s Rage does approximately 50/55/60% damage compared to the Live version on cast, but it is increased by 50% for each enemy the target collides with. Under this paradigm, if you manage to kick your target into two enemy champions, it’s about same damage. If you manage to kick your target through his whole team, however, you will get a very noticeable damage reward (750 + 3.0 Total AD), resulting in massive damage to the original target.
It’s definitely cool to Insec kick a high-profile enemy into your team, but the cool thing about that play specifically really isn't the damage you dealt; it’s the displacement utility you brought to your team. And while that play is cool, it has come to overshadow other uses of the ability in team fights. We want to reward players for thinking about the direction in which they kick their target.
As far as the 1v1 case is concerned, Dragon’s Rage will deal 100ish less damage. This is absolutely significant, but the increased sustained threat from Flurry should be enough to compensate for that after the first few seconds.-------------
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Actually posted this on Reddit, but wanted to talk about these
I've been monitoring this set of threads a bit. Let me start by making sure I understand the community thoughts accurately:
* Lee's identity as a mobile character that transitions from assassin to tank is under fire, and that identity is really awesome, fun and unique. Changing this is a big problem because it's not only cool, but is positive for the game's variety.
* The new mechanics around late-game AA damage is unrealistic and will not have good results, because Lee cannot function in that role in teamfights. Additionally, his mobility predicates a hit-and-run style in big engagements.
* Lee is really balanced and should not be nerfed.
* Safeguard ward-hopping changes are too far.
With that, let me talk a bit about this;
1) I agree on the identity thing. Statikk, Chun and I will look at this on Monday. I think you're spot-on here.
2) These Flurry mechanics have tested pretty awesomely, but aren't compensation for nerfs or a new function for Lee. Agreed.
3) Ward hopping will undergo additional numbers tuning, however, this is one I feel more strongly about. Ward-hiopping is a lot of what Lee is about and makes him fun - we talked a lot about why we will not remove the ability to do so - however, it's up too often and makes him a bit too mobile. I think this is a fair place to hit raw uptime, though I tend to think CD and not energy is better (will debate with team on this).
4) Lee Sin is out of line in HOW MUCH he expresses force early. His late-game power is probably right (as a tank-style pick/initiator), but his early game power is still too high. I'm OK with him being more potent early than late, I don't think that means it has to be completely lopsided. His skill expression should matter a bit more early than it does currently (let's be honest, there's a lot of safety in Lee's early power).
5) This is not slated for a release date yet, and PBE was to experiment with these changes. So this is a good time to talk about these things!At first the nerfs seemed way out of line, but the more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. It's not hard to add some AAs to your combo with 100% attack speed. The biggest frustration playing against Lee is how much damage he can do to you while being in control of the terms of engagement. Now, he can get the same effect but has to stay next to his target for a little bit longer.I tend to think +X% CD when using this on a ward is a good solution. I want this uptime/context-less mobility reduced, but not removed or gutted.
However, I feel like he also could have been tweaked with conventional means. W giving too much mobility? instead of ruining ward jumps, add 2 seconds to W CD. Too much early game damage? Well, why the hell does he have a non-ultimate ability with 340 +1.8 bonus AD at level 9? Just make it's damage and scaling commensurate with its cooldown. It should be similar in damage to Talon's rake, 260 +1.2.Have you considered giving the 50% energy cost to minions? I understand the argument that wards being invisible and expendable are very strong, but I feel as though an increased energy cost to hopping to minions is too big a hit to his laning phase.On the table - I think the difference between wards/non-wards seems right to me.Not to derail this thread too much Morello, but can we please see this level of dedicated feedback towards Elise as well? The public outcry is less massive but some of us still love Elise very much and want some discussion on her changes too. So far there's been very little feedback on her.Elise is a more complex topic because there's a lot less "good" for players out of the discussion to me. Elise, overall, doesn't have the "is the most mobile" or "Is the most X" or "has Y pattern" when that isn't just power and dueling ability. Elise's identity right now is weak, so trying to establish one has been difficult. Her gameplay hooks (sans her move-block) are pretty meh overall to provide a lot of gameplay and identity.Since we are on the topics of identities and no one has YET to say what Skarners is after the rework, would you do the honors?You'll note that many of these issues crop up on fighters, who have weak identity as a class. I think Skarner wants to be more like Mundo (hit confirm chase), but his ult confuses that with being a tank. His DPS pattern, to me, should be slow and his toughness should be high to match his kit.I might recommend implementing this as:While I like flat/% more than scale with rank (later allies are more plentiful), this is how I see it more myself too.
-Increase Cooldown for Safeguard/IW.
-Primary cooldown reduced by "X" when used on an allied champion. Consider making the contextual CDR something that scales with ability rank.Thats a fairly scary answer from my perspective. It makes it sound like you don't really know what you want to do with her. Which usually means, put her down for a re-work at some point in the future and until then, slap a few general nerfs on her so that she doesn't become a problem.It's scary to me too, because that is fun - but "powerful and low on context" tends to make any context-sensitive or more tradeoff-driven champion poor. Reliability is king when choosing the "best" in something, and I think it's hard to take away Elise's and still make her satisfying, since much of the satisfaction of her currently is throwing your weight around by being > other champions.
A lot of champions have a fairly weak gameplay identity, this doesn't make them bad champions or badly designed. Elise's thematic is incredibly strong and fun. If I had to pick out something for her gameplay identity I would probably say its flexibility. She has the potential to do many things and play very reactively in a game. Whether thats her build or her role or even her playstyle in a given situation.
Dueling power is always an intended strength of champions without an Ult. You can't get away from that fact without making her useless or completely reworking her. The tradeoff being that she has no massive game-changing ability in her kit for teamfights.How would it balance out if ward hoping destroyed the ward, or reveals it for a short time. I feel like the vision changes really allows Lee to set up safety nets that can't be broken since oracle is out.We've tested this, and it's interesting. Not off-the table, but doesn't solve the problem (just makes it more gold-driven).Would you stop allowing posts like what you've responded to here to derail threads that are on a specific topic? It's really annoying.Early game Fighter or Assassin (AD Caster? It's weird) into a late-game tank transition is the direction I believe we want here. The current changes aren't doing that, so we'll modify.
That being said; what ARE you looking for with Lee? If he's going to be an early game assassin and a late game tank, what hooks really emphasize that?
I guess my issue is that his kit doesn't really scream tank or assassin. Half of his abilities are great for being an assassin, and the other half are great for being a tank. Combining them, I think he follows Diana's lead and becomes someone who is caught between two play-style paradigms. The difference is that he is capable of getting out of a bad situation, which makes him significantly more powerful than Diana. So, if you want him to be both, which sounds reasonable, then his current power curve is probably what you're looking for, but there needs to be a far more rapid drop off, considering his mobility/ultimate utility.Have you thought about increasing the CD on his W if he uses it to get to a ward? or the cooldown halves when you use it on an ally?That's the approach I personally like best, too.
Oh, and also his Ultimate is something i would like to talk about. The damage on it right now is a bit absurd so its fairly reasonable to expect a nerf but in case you havent noticed lee's ult is useless if he doesnt land it one more person with the knockback + knock-up! Is there anyway we can get a new animation on his ult that increases the hitbox of the enemy hit to a standard X by X unit?Excuse me, Morello, sir, but I'd like to share my thoughts on Elise as far as her identity or what sets her apart.This is interesting - making her a bit of a "minion mancer" would really shift her a lot, but certainly could have unique gameplay. I'll shop this around.
As part of her identity, I believe her spiderling passive could be made more meaningful to the opponent and to the player. As it stands it's just a lot of invisible power to me. For being her passive, it doesn't seem to stand out aside from tanking skillshots and jungle monsters. Lore-wise, I think it would be cool if her spiderlings were actually some of her loyal spider cult followers, eagerly seeking to do her bidding as well as empowering her.
I believe Elise's opponents could have some very interesting interactions if her spiderlings were made more pivotal to her identity. I used to play Visage back in my DOTA days to great effect, and one of my main DOTA buddies (who is now a Rioter that shall remain nameless) used hit and run tactics versus me as Phantom Assassin. He would build Battle Fury for the AoE, blinkstrike into me, kill my bats for gold and to reduce my power for a time, then bail out before I could kill him. He knew how important those bats were to me, that it would take time to re-summon them, and that there was also ample reward for killing them.
I don't know what direction you want to take with Elise, but I can see her spiderlings each giving her extra armor/mr. While Elise spider-form may be tanky under this model, she is only tanky under the condition that you don't kill her spiders. This makes her spiderlings both her greatest strength and greatest weakness. If she wishes to be tanky again, she is forced into her squishy human form, exposing herself. This gives Elise a clearly defined weakness that I believe is telegraphed well to the opponent. Her human form is squishy, and so it is your goal as her opponent to force her back into human form. Spider form is strong in both damage and tankiness but has more conditionals like requiring her spiderlings to function as it should. One of her spider-form abilities could also have a secondary use as a protective spell such as a shield, invincibility, evasion, or mitigation effect specifically for her spiderlings in order to give Elise some counterplay for opponents destroying them. This is sort of like Yorick in a sense where his ghouls make him tankier when they are out, except I believe that this strength is healthier gameplay-wise on Elise since she can't resummon unless she form swaps. There's a cost and downtime for hers.
What do you think, Mr. Morello? Anything you can share with us regarding the direction you want?Poor Diana. ~//~ Wasn't the whole assassin to tank thing supposedly NOT what we wanted a champ to have?That can be OK if they don't overlap into Assassin/Tank at the same time during a game. Having a variable role with game time is OK, but if you do two roles well at the same time, it's an issue....Unless you're AP chogath, right?lol
;_;So, you've changed your opinion on the value of uniqueness at long last?Uniqueness is always a goal, but it must provide new gameplay overall (inputs and outputs), as opposed to temporary novelty.
But yes, each champion should have a unique strategic niche that does not 'outclass' other champions at a certain 'role'.
This may be one of Elise's troubles-- she doesn't have enough uniqueness, and consequently directly competes with other champions for a team role. She'll perhaps either 'outclass' or be 'outclassed' by others depending on her power.
And then the other thing-- Why doesn't League's spider champion use webs, Morello?
She needs to be more spider-like, most likely.
And on that topic, Zyra could probably be Venomancer better than Venomancer if she's allowed to plant a proper garden.
For webs, we had a few ideas on these, but none of them panned out. I wish we'd had pushed her back a bit.
Rengar Rework Detail
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)Scruffy, there is a point about Rengar Q that i would like if you could adress please, which is why it has no scaling?This is actually a really good question. I think it would make sense to lower the flat damage scaling per level and convert it into some % AD scaling to let it scale better into the late game.
Update On Skarner's Rework
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)We've got some more changes to the E coming in the next patch. We will continue to make both usability and power updates every patch if he is still having problems, so don't worry Skarner is not being ignored.
Stay positive and keep playing the scorpion, I will be too.
Edit: Changes are missile width and speed increases, should make it a bit more consistent.
Fiora Flash Bug To Be Fixed In 4.4
Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)
Hello, so I know now the hot topic is Lee Sin but there is a super annoying and game changing but with Fiora. Everytime I use her ultimate and the enemy dies the flash will become unavailable to cast and I will only be able to use it again the next time I ult. Even dying did not make the flash available to use.
Fiora ultimate has a pretty high cooldown so there is plenty of time on the game here flash can't be used. This bug had been around for a long time, I already posted on foruns and support ticket but I cannot seem to be able to get awereness to the problem. Which is kind of sad that some champions like Lee Sin get so much attention that they are changing stuff that isn't so high priority and game changing bugs are left untouched for months.
I believe this is fixed in 4.4. Ain't nobody gonna see this because y'alls is too grumpy.
All-Star 2014 Heads To Paris, France (Plus AMA Announcement)
Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)
We're excited to announce that the 2014 League of Legends All-Star event will be held in Paris, France. Taking place from Thursday, May 8 to Sunday, May 11 at Le Zenith Arena, a new format will feature the All-Star Invitational and All-Star Challenge. With these changes, the event will showcase competition from both the top teams and the favorite pro-players from each region in four days of competition.
The All-Star Invitational
Serving as this year’s main event, the All-Star Invitational will bring together the regional winners of the NA LCS, EU LCS, LPL, GPL, and OGN Champions. These five teams will duke it out in group stage play, with the top four advancing to a best-of-three semifinal. The winners will meet in in a best-of-five final to compete for the $50,000 winner-take-all prize.
The All-Star Challenge
At the beginning of each day of competition, players will be able to watch The All-Star Challenge, a series of games featuring two mixed region rosters. Players will not only elect two pros from their region to play in the Challenge event, they will also vote to influence aspects of the modes that the pros play. Player Voting begins on Sunday, March 30, so mark your calendars!
A Call to Action: AMA with Riot
Want to learn more about the All-Star process? Join us on Reddit for an AMA on Monday, March 10 at 10:00am PST.
Tickets will go on sale soon, and be sure to check out lolesports.com in the coming weeks for more information including a detailed schedule and voting information!