[4.6] Patch Forecast, Skarner's Old Identity, Meddler on Ao Shin and a New Champ, MF's Q and W, Issues With Fiora, Sale

Important: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 4/7/2014 -SKT T1 Zed With Fixed Shadows, Rumble Changes, Updated Summoner Spell Sounds
Important: Void Fizz Now Available


[4.6] Patch Forecast

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Hey guys,

This is the first of hopefully many Patch Forecasts where we can share our perspectives on what issues we see affecting the game as well as those we're actively looking to address for the next patch.

This should give you guys more context about the changes you guys regularly see hit the PBE between patch releases. Ultimately, we want to start conversations earlier on so that 1) there's fewer surprises and 2) there's time for us to chat with you guys, get your feedback, and continue to iterate on our goals and changes.

So without further ado, here's some of the primary projects we're looking at for the next patch:

1) Reworks Follow-up

We released several reworks in the last couple of patches, so this patch we're focusing on ensuring they're all in a good state. We think we undershot a bit on the power level of all 3 of the recent large reworks to Kassadin, Gragas, and Rengar, so here's a sneak peak at the current directions of the changes:

Kassadin: We're looking to give Kassadin more favorable opportunities to close into melee with his targets and make sure he is rewarded correctly when he successfully does so. We also want to continue to focus on amplifying Kassadin's unique strengths against magic damage.

Gragas: We're looking to free up some of the constraints we put on Gragas' mobility so he can more readily initiate and better function as a tank in fights.

Rengar: We're looking at cleaning up some of the responsiveness issues we may have introduced with the rework and want to make sure Rengar can better compete during the early game in Top Lane and in the Jungle.

2) Top Lane and the "Renekton Bar"

As with any lane, we are definitely aware and concerned that there may not be enough champion diversity in the Top Lane, especially at the competitive level. This is largely due to what we believe are "lane bullies" who essentially represent the relative early game power level needed to enter and compete in the lane. Currently, that bar is the "Renekton Bar."

One way to reduce the severity of the "Renekton Bar" would be simply to tone down Renekton's power a notch. In this case, directly lowering the bar would potentially create an even more unhealthy situation where a different champion rises to the top and acts as the new "bar." We actually see Renekton as one of the more interesting top lane champions in the game, and so instead of nerfing here, we're looking to buff.

We're in the process of looking at champions that we think provide interesting and healthy gameplay in the top lane, and finding ways to nudge them up to be able to better compete in the current Top Lane environment. This doesn't mean these guys should just now outright beat champions like Renekton, but it hopefully means they have a better chance of going toe-to-toe with him or maybe even just surviving the lane against him and then providing some unique strengths to their team later on.

As a note, since we can't address every single top laner we'd like in one patch, this will be an ongoing project as we continue to bring more and more champions into the fold.

Remember, these are all currently in iteration and may change at any point before we actually release the patch.

In addition, I'd like to give you guys some insight into a couple of hot topics we're currently analyzing to see if we need to make any adjustments:

1) Lulu

We think we dropped the ball a bit here by failing to make sure we kept Bot Lane Support Lulu fully intact when we made adjustments to her Mid Lane harrass patterns last patch. We're currently in a heavy analysis phase to gauge where her power level is at as a Bot Lane Support.

We also want to continue to monitor her presence in Mid Lane and see if she is still presenting a large diversity issue there even after our changes.

Once again, this simply means we need more time here to gather data and feedback before deciding if and how to move forward.

2) Jungle Items

There are actually 2 potential issues here we have been discussing a ton internally:

1. The Lack of Class Diversity in the Jungle

We are currently investigating why other classes of Junglers such as Jungle Tanks like Maokai and Nautilus are not valued in the current game. We feel it largely has to do with the way Spirit Stone and its upgrades scale their effectiveness based purely on the amount of damage dealt.

We think there's some complex work to be done here in order to open the jungle back up to more classes of champions, so we're doing a deep dive at the moment to make sure we have a solid direction before moving forward.

2. Is Feral Flare too strong?

We are currently monitoring the power level of Feral Flare after its recent release, as our current thinking is that it may be a bit over-tuned.

We prefer to let it settle a bit on the Live servers before making any changes, but it's possible some adjustments to Feral Flare may make it into 4.6.


Riot Trying To Bring Skarner's Old Identity Back

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

We still have plans for Skarner, mostly in the realm of bringing excitement and a bit of the old identity that people liked about the old Skarner back.

We can keep a lot of the gameplay gains (versatility, windows of power/weakness) and add a bit more stickiness/cc control that people liked about the old kit. I've been in ongoing discussions about these changes with a lot of the team, and I should get down to implementing them sometime next week. When we have a more final changelist, I'll let you know what we intend to do.

Meddler on Ao Shin, a New Champ, Lissandra, and Dev Journals

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Like at all it has been a while. Any idea on a time table?
We're still working on Ao Shin, but for now he's a long way out. Some of our initial ideas for translating his concept into an actual in-game champion haven't quite panned out, so we're continuing to work towards an approach that really hits the bar. He's definitely a champion we want to make happen, but we'd rather take a long time than fail to do his concept justice.
woah meddler brought up a week old post. good2know that you guiz look at posts that arent just on front page
Yeah, sorry about the necro, had spotted this one while forum browsing by phone a while back though and planned on responding once I was at a computer. Then forgot to for a bit.
We would love a Dev journal on his initial design, why it didn't work, and what direction you guys end up going after he's released.
Good suggestion, will look into that at the time..
Follow on question: What are you folks most interested in seeing in dev journals?
Thank the Riot guys personally for the Twitch VU, by the way!
Will do! VU team OP.
For me it's a lot about the timeline of a champion from beginning to release. Like I want to read just as much about the failures as the successes on a champion. I would love to read about what you've tried on Ao Shin so far and why it didn't work just as much as i'd like to see how other champs like Yasuo and Jinx have evolved both thematically and what skills they once had that were scrapped.

I just love behind the scenes documentaries and what might have been is just as often interesting as what ended up being for me. Though I can understand reluctance in revealing spells that might find a home elsewhere in the future or people freaking out about a specific ability/concept not making it out (*cough*Omen*cough*) which is sad for people like me who are just genuinely curious.
I think seeing scrapped abilities and explanations of why they were scrapped would be cool. It would give us insight into exactly how many iterations of a champion you guys go through.
Ah, cool, we've got a couple of dev journals planned that should hit upon a bunch of that stuff.
Meddler do you have a new champion coming out anytime soon?
Also buff Lissandra.
My time's more focused on working with the other folks on the team and general champion stuff now, so I'm not doing full gameplay design on new champs anymore. Have been tag teaming the design on a champ with Gypsylord though, which I'm really excited to see come to fruition sometime this year.

Lissandra wise I've been pondering some passive tweaks. Have tested out a couple of alternatives that tie in with her need to dive into fights (conditional ice shields). Haven't yet hit on anything that hits the mark, nor determined whether that would be instead of or in addition to her current passive. Going to keep testing, no guarantees that'll go anywhere though.
Do you know if Corki or Tristana are on the VU list with some of the other Yordle/Meglings in need of attention?
From memory they're on the list, but not high priorities at present since others need the work more.
so.... will Ao Shin come out BEFORE or AFTER helmet bro?
btw, when will kassadin get a VU? i dont play him, im just wondering since hes basically a hollow walking triangle.
A Kass VU will happen at some point, not sure on the timing though.
That's a really cool idea! What if Lissandra got a scaling shield based on how many enemies she hits with a spell? It could have a relatively short cooldown (6s?) but be used to make her better at sustained fights AND diving into the enemy team, like she has to. It would also make it clear the good or great Lissandras by how they're able to line up abilities to hit the most people.
One of the passives I've been looking at's pretty similar to that actually, though based on a stack building system, with a shield at max stacks, and stacks gained when you CC an enemy (more stacks for champs/less for minions). Current version, due to the CD in particular, runs into some issues where it just happens in team fights, and so there's a lot less gameplay created than I'd like. Going to try tuning it when time permits, see if there's a version that minimizes that issue.

Miss Fortune Q and W Clarifications

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

no it doesn't
this is from the wiki I even learned from it
The second shot follows a priority order on targets within 500 range:
Enemy champions in a 40° cone with at least one stack of Impure Shots.
Minions and neutral monsters within a 20° cone.
Enemy champions within a 20° cone.
Minions and neutral monsters within a 40° cone.
Enemy champions within a 40° cone.
Enemy or neutral units within a 90° cone.
Ps.
The cone starts from the direction you aim
this is mostly correct! that represents the under-the-hood changes i made to the target selection as part of the balance changes, though i made two small changes before the changes shipped:
1. the last check is 110° (up from 90°)
2. the ability now also does a very short range check in an even wider cone at the very end, to account for scenarios in which it's hard to tell whether or not a potential 2nd target's center point is within the targeting indicator because the units are adjacent.

the tl;dr is that double up tries to bounce as close to straight back as it can, and it will prioritize champions within a small cone if you have them tagged with impure shots.
To what extent do you think MF will be able to actually utilize that aspect of Q in lane? In teamfights, presumably her R will help a lot, but I feel like her laning power is going to be a bit too conditional.
it should come up very little in lane, which is more or less intended. more savvy miss fortune players will learn to make use of it in the early levels if they feel there is enough benefit to doing so, but outside of that it will likely only manifest after using bullet time.
I'm really annoyed, because I smart cast it, and it fails to hit minions beside each other like it used to.
As in, it would make a 70-80 degree change in direction on bouncing. I've missed so many double up hits cos of how unclear the mechanics are. It's also a lot harder to bounce it off a minion onto an enemy champion if they champion isn't right behind the minion.
I also don't like the reduced inital damage, because it's now so hard to bounce onto the right target you have to aa-q-aa all on the same target to do the combo, instead of aa-Q(minion), 2nd bounce enemy - aa.
for most cases it will bounce 55 degrees to the left or right, but if the units are within melee range the bullet can bend up to 80 degrees. the ability should be about as forgiving as before, but without all the randomness.

as for the attack, q (minion), attack combo you mentioned, that should be easier after the changes since the bounce will actually look for champions with impure shots on them (whereas before it was completely random within one of two area checks). granted, the impure shots check is a fairly tight cone of 40 degrees, but that has shown to be generous enough in the games i've spectated.

all that said, i'm keeping an eye on her. if the bounce mechanics prove to be awkward, i can always make adjustments (though i very much doubt it will go back to being pure random).
Heres how the targeting should work, in priority order.
i understand that you want more reliability from double up but implementing those changes would essentially make double up a targeted nuke with 1000 range, which is not something i think is good for the character as the ability would have to be gated heavily. the current mechanics give you opportunities to position and target select for similar levels of reliability, which is likely as far as we'd comfortably go in terms of guaranteed long-range damage given the current kit.
---------------

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

So, the wikia says the stacks from the passive are a self buff, and yet I never see a box pop up above my ability bar. I never know how many stacks I have or how long the buff will last. Also, I don't know if the stacks are stuck to 1 target, or if they stay with me when I target switch.
the closest comparison would be darius's passive stacks. hitting enemies will build up stacks on them (the stacks show up in their buff bar), and you can have any number of enemy units stacked up at a time with their own independent stack counts and expiration timers.
Then can we get a debuff indicator like Darius please?
i've asked about it, but we won't be able to do something like that independently of some kind of visual update (which i totally keep trying to bring up casually as a thing that would be awesome to do). so short answer is that we'll totally look into it once we've allocated artists to working on her, but i have no idea when that would possibly be since it isn't currently on anyone's schedule that i know of.

Issues With Fiora and Plans on Fixing Them

This is very, very long, so I decided to be nice to your mouse scroll and put most of it in a spoiler tag.

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hi guys. I'd just like to weigh in on what some of the Fiora goals are. The main problems we see with Fiora's current kit are that thematically, she doesn't deliver on the fantasy of being a skilled duelist/fencer, and mechanically, her game presence / play pattern / role doesn't line up with being a skilled duelist/fencer.

As far as the duelist fantasy goes, at least when I think of Fiora, I expect her to be extremely mobile but not just going in, she needs to be good at dancing in, out of, around and about combat. She should be about finding weaknesses in the opponent's play and finding the proper occasion to go on the attack. She shouldn't be about running in and bursting enemies down, she should be poking them down over time.

Mechanically speaking, I'd expect a duelist type champion to be mechanically intense. I expect opportunities to use my abilities at optimal times to counter out the enemy's champion. I want to have a lot to keep track of, but with clear success cases when I do well.

At the end of the day, live Fiora is a ball of stats with some untargetability thrown in; she pushes her buttons pretty much as fast as she can without a second thought, and she's also extremely snowballey. In short, she's bland with no cool opportunities to exchange gameplay between her and her lane opponent.

Some of the current goals including switching Fiora from an assassin to a melee DPS, and moving her lane from top to mid/jungle, and adding tons of 'outplay' functionality on her kit, as well as more mobility especially in terms of being able to disengage and re-engage at optimal times.

I can't share too much of exactly what the plans are for her kit, as I'm sure it's going to change tons during development, but I'll leave this here to hopefully stir up some excitement for our favorite rapier wielder. Also bear in mind this is an early, experimental Blade Waltz, and could certainly change drastically between now and remake launch time.

I also understand it's hard to understand exactly what this sample Blade Waltz does, given the lack of context on her basic spells... but hopefully your imaginations run wild
So there is no way she could keep her current ultimate? It's sort of the reason I want to play her. I know mentioning other games isn't necessarily great but omnislash is one of my favorite abilities of all times. As such Fiora's ult is one of my favorite abilities of all time.
Her current ult is my favorite part of her. The QWEPassive I agree are all stat blocks. Her ultimate feels strategic and has a lot of choices.
It has a long CD. Will using it save me? Get me a kill? If I don't will it be 3 minutes before I can contribute again?
It's good AOE/Gapclose. Do I need to initiate and soften the opposing team or go super hard on the AD?
In duels do I start off with it or treat it like tryn's ultimate? Do I use it to juke a hard stun?
A great question. I'm not going to directly answer it, but I'm going to pose a theoretical question.

If one assumes that Lunge is _kind of_ like Blade Waltz's jump around and hit things function, and that Riposte is _kind of_ like Blade Waltz's untargetability, is it hard to envision a scenario where you don't get the current functionality of Blade Waltz if you're allowed to rapidly cast your basic spells? But with options around when each individual jump and spell block comes from, as well as considering how many jumps to use vs spell blocks vs disengages, when, how many auto attacks to weave in, when to focus more DPS vs more survivability vs more mobility, etc.

The goal behind the current ult was to sometimes emulate the behavior of the old one, but make it more timing and decision based, add more options, and add more counterplay for the opponents. I feel like the new ultimate offers far more opportunities than the old one, if one assumes that R/Q emulates the feel of her live Blade Waltz.
Hey Guinsoo, would the new CD on her spells be affected by CDR? In other words, if I have 40% CDR, could I get her spell cooldowns while ulted to like, 0.4 secs instead of 0.75?
Also, what's the reasoning behind moving her out of top lane? I understand that mid is typically better for these kinds of frail champions, but taking a look at her ultimate it gives me a kind of Riven vibe. Do you think she'll be unable to duel a lot of the top lane bruisers with this kind of kit? Or is the current concern that, since top is full of so many unhealthily designed champions, that you'll get a healthier design with the goal of midlane in mind, and that fighter changes over time could shift her into the top lane?
To be honest I'm not convinced Riven is a perfect top lane example. Right now to me the 'natural' top laners are people like Renekton, Shyvana, etc. I feel like in order to make a melee ADC (ala Yasuo) compete with those types of champions in the top lane, we'd have to make other sacrifices to her core design (e.g. putting life regeneration on her kit, I really don't like her current passive but I worry that without it she'd really struggle top lane).
Must strongly disagree. There is a very good reason why blades were becoming lighter during the Renaissance, its because they become more likely to aim toward a lethal area accurately. The objective was to mortally wound your opponent as efficiently as possible. One strike through the heart, aorta, lung or diaphragm and the fight is over. That is definitely the definition of burst damage and/or critical strike. That said, I do agree that she shouldn't be doing this like a mage and definitely not with AoE. A melee champion that "pokes them down over time" is not using a rapier at all. They would be using a broadsword, club or axe because they don't care what part of the body that they hit.
Admittedly, there is the alternate technique of blooding, where a fencer is not confident of making a finishing move. They cut as many superficial wounds as possible to weaken the opponent and slow them down. This does not translate into LoL at all, unless you are Darius. As to fighting and armored opponent, the fencer would turn to their stiletto. They would avoid the armored and slower opponent's weapon until they could get inside their arcs to apply the stiletto to the joints of the armor. Nothing "poke down" about that.
OK, I feel like I used the wrong terminology when I said "poke enemies down." I edited my first post to "deal steady, high DPS that is relatively target agnostic." While I mostly agree with you that fencing is all about scoring OHKOs, well obviously that type of gameplay isn't great for any type of PvP game. The way we're choosing to handle this is to give her strong, steady DPS, but have it come in bigger chunks that one might anticipate from a steady DPS champion. For example her Riposte has heavily negative implications on her outgoing DPS... unless she blocks a significant spell or attack, at which point she can respond with a very hard hitting Thrust.

In general we want her to feel good (and be greatly rewarded) for using her abilities properly. While that can't be in the form of OHKOs, I think the next best thing is "big chunks of damage."
Hi there Guinsoo. I've been playing Fiora for two seasons now, I ended post S3 in D1 with her and have been fluxuating all around Diamond this season. Suffice to say I have played a lot of Fiora and have a deep mechanical understanding of her kit and potential.
I just wanted to give you my perspective on Fiora. I've always pictured her as a hybrid of Master Yi and Zed. She has the reset potential/AS/MS boost of Master Yi, coupled with the strong, albeit slightly less reliable assassinating ultimate like Zed. While she can't quite clean up as hard as Master Yi, or single out an opponent in a teamfight as easily as Zed, she's able to fulfill both roles when built for them.
Seeing as you are taking the Yasuo approach to her kit, and making her more about mobility and auto attacking. So my question is will she be strong enough to even be competitive, or just wind up as another Master Yi? Yasuo's strength comes from his resourceless spamming of abilities, his extremely useful shield and windwall and his CCtastic Ult. On top of all that he is an absolute lategame monster because of his double crit passive.
Will Fiora even be able to stand up to that? Will she bring anywhere near the utility Yasuo does? Or just be Master Yi 2.0 with some extra mobility? A high damage, yet ultimately easily locked and burned down target. Will there be a reason to pick her over Yasuo?
Here are 3 reasons off the top of my head to pick her over Yasuo. Please note I'm talking about her new kit with new abilities, not her old kit with a new ultimate. I just spoiled the ultimate for funsies
1) Kayle ult with a few catches on a normal slot
2) Weaker engage, but much stickier than Yasuo
3) Built in disengage
Guinsoo, will her Riposte be able to block tower shots while she is ulting? The untargetability was a key feature of her ultimate when it came to tower diving.
It looks good though, I hope it turns out great.
I doubt it. I'm not a great fan of tower diving. I think her kit still leaves her much better positioned to tower dive than the average champion even without being untargetable/immune to turrets. I'm not completely opposed to her having some turret mitigation capabilities. But I'd rather avoid it, and so far my instinct tells me she'll do okay with out it just due to the sheer mobility on the kit.
I play her sometimes in normals and i've yet to encounter a situation where i feel like her passive had a meaningful effect on winning a duel or 2v2 skirmish. It's not really impactful later in the game either since she falls into an assassin role and fights end before it can really ramp up and heal her.
That's kind of what I'm driving at - the passive feels lame, it's especially lame in tense moments like battles with other champions, and its only real use is allowing her access to a lane that I don't really feel she belongs in in the first place. It's power without gameplay, and plus it feels useless too. It's effective, but totally lameballs. That's pretty much the opposite of where I'd like her passive design space to lie.
Guinsoo you designed some of the most frustrating and OP champions ever conceived.
Guinsoo you designed some of the most creative and fun to play champions ever conceived.
Touche. That sort of sums up my design, kinda feast or famine. At the same time, it's remarkable how often really fun and interesting champions skirt that fine line...
One question though: Why Riposte -> Thrust (based off of what I saw in the screencap)? Riposte's definition refers to the counter attack, not the block itself. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the ability be Parry -> Riposte?
This is probably an accurate point. Currently I was calling the whole spell Riposte, with two parts, Parry and Thrust. We will definitely work on the names later, not only are the mechanics placeholder but the names too.
Why would a DUELIST be a jungler? Is she dueling the wolves? And what "honor" is there in jumping from the bushes and attacking an unknowing target? That's not a "duel". >_> I think thematically, moving Fiora out of top lane totally changes the entire "duelist" aspect.
That's an interesting consideration. But I still think mid lane works fine for her; perhaps you're right that jungle isn't where she belongs.
Also that new ultimate is really boring. Basically "URF Mode Activated". Yay, a steroid ult. Yawn.
I think right now it feels significantly different than a steroid ult. It significantly alters your play pattern and thinking for the duration. See the points below...
@Guinsoo
Thank you so much for coming in here to talk to us about this
I understand the ult change is, of course, highly experimental but it has me worried. I've played Fiora since her first free week and scored my first ever penta kill with her (why I changed my account name to this). If you're still hanging around hopefully you can address a couple of my concerns here:
1. The new ult lets her spam no-cost virtually no-cooldown base spells up to 16 times over 9 seconds. I don't see how this wouldn't be OP unless she hit like a toddler when her ult was down...and if it's still on a 120 second cooldown that could be a very painful 120 seconds...
2. Without much to go on, I can see that her ult now does 0 damage (by itself at least), her E at least currently does 0 damage, and her W only does damage conditionally. This would make her Lunge her only real damage spell. I'm okay with her being auto-attack based - I'm play Crit build Fiora now anyway - but is there any plan to make sure Thornmail doesn't become "buy this to be immune to Fiora"?
3. Will Fiora keep her Attack Speed steroid, passive AD, or get any new steroids aside from the bonus armor pen on her new ult? Because having a window of massive attack speed is one of the things that feels awesome to me about Fiora. I think she'd probably be extremely bad if she was heavily auto-attack reliant for damage but didn't have any steroids to help her.
4. Can you share any thoughts on jungle Fiora? I've started playing her there and like it, but she's really mana-hungry since she needs her E to clear with anything resembling passable speed. It doesn't sound like she'll have much on the way of damaging spells to clear with so she might wind up being too painful early to take jungle.
Thanks again for giving us a heads up. Fiora is my favorite champ so I'm highly nervous right now, but I'll try and be cautiously optimistic
About point 1: Originally I was debating how to primarily balance this implementation of Blade Waltz. There are two obvious limiting levers, duration and number of casts. The version of which I posted a screenshot is clearly more duration limited. In this iteration I was counting on the various "drawbacks" / nuances of the abilities to limit the ultimate - e.g. travel times, delays, parry times, etc. In the end with the directions we took for some of the other , and the more recent version is more moderate 8 second duration, with a limit of 4 / 6 / 8 casts (still needs tons of tuning). Also note that right now Blade Waltz doesn't provide any bonuses to how hard the skills hit, to emphasize mobility and tactics over brute force during the ultimate (obviously when casting that many spells in succession, it's going to be doing a certain amount of brute force work).

You're partially right that an ultimate that uses stronger versions of your basic skills requires a sharp tuning knife to make it feel good with and without. But in this case, I think there are some "under the hood" things that we can do to make the ultimate feel like a thing of its own. For example right now when you activate it, it resets all your cooldowns so you can start your comboing or dancing immediately, you get X number of casts chosen pretty much any way you like, and afterward it puts the cooldowns back where they were. I think this really helps make the ultimate feel like a spell all of its own. Additionally, the more potent the "spell modifications" that Blade Waltz offers, the more it feels like the ultimate is a collection of different spells. I think the W captures that well right now, the E to some degree, and the Q not nearly enough.

She definitely pulls a lot of weight with all her spells. In fact, she's decidedly spell based and mostly weaves autos between them, but still plays a lot like a melee ADC because she can cast so many spells within her windows and (conditionally) deal steady spikes of damage. As far as the actual itemization, that is yet to be determined. Right now, she does have an attack speed steroid elsewhere on her kit (originally it was on the ult, but that doesn't fit for obvious reason), but it's not clear to me yet if that will or should stick. That is one of the balancing levers for her that partially determines if she's more assassin or melee ADC; in an ideal world I'd like her to play exactly like a melee ADC without any basic attack steroids, but that's a lofty goal that's probably not possible. I also don't want her to rely exclusively on her auto attacks like for example Tryndamere, I think it should be somewhere int he middle.

And I don't really have any thoughts on jungle Fiora at the moment. I'm really not sure if that's a reasonable expectation or not. It has not yet been tested, and it's definitely not the primary focus/intended role for her.
One major thing I don't like about the idea of the new ult is how much more beneficial it is to players with low ping. I get that anything mechanically intensive is going to do that somewhat, but I don't think having an ultimate that's balanced at is core around giving West Coasters an advantage is a good idea.
Actually, I think that's more of a consideration/potential problem for 'twitchy, reactive defensive spell' than this ultimate. I mean certainly it applies. But how bad would you say Akali or Jayce is to play with high ping? It's not ideal obviously, but I don't think it makes them unplayable.
When I read Guinsoo's first post I thought, "So basically they want her to be another Yasuo." And then low and behold he comes out and says it.
So basically we can expect an overloaded kit with absurd mobility, some utility, and lots of damage. Why not give this rework to Scruffy or Soulcrushed instead?
I think there are levers you can tune to allow a character to be very mobile while not being completely out of hand. It's definitely a hard goal, and melee DPS seem to be one of the hardest classes to get right. I certainly would like to try.
just a little suggestion can you make fiora dash work on friendly ally? to take full advantage of a no cooldown also she lost her ultimate which is huge
It's something we've considered; ultimately I don't think it fits the fencing fantasy well so I'd rather try to go other routes to get the mobility we like. But we're not opposed to it if other methods fail.
Its wonderful your in a job that allows you to "take a year off" for most people once they leave home for work or college that is the last time they will see a long vacation in their lives.
It is. Riot is the bestest
Please leave Fiora alone. [....]
People don't like change. It's in our nature; if we like something we don't want it to change. But that doesn't mean it's not for the better. I'm confident we can deliver a new Fiora kit that delivers most of the same mechanics that the old one has (including the important ones like the Blade Waltz experience) but creates new gameplay and makes her actually feel like a duelist.

I prefer to focus my responses toward posts that are more constructive.
I've got a simple question about the future Fiora ult and her kit as a whole that I feel is important because it address a fear of mine. Simply: Will W be considered one spell, or two?
Each entire W rotation counts as one spell; similarly each full Q rotation counts as a single spell cast. Not each individual cast.
Guinsoo, what's it like working on old champs instead of designing new ones? Is it easier, harder, or just different?
It's definitely harder. As you can see, players have strong opinions about their favorite champions, so changing them is never easy. I also think it's more enjoyable - I think there's a more clear design path since you have an idea for how the character plays now and how you might want them to play; that's a lot harder when making a character from scratch, which is like setting sail for the new world without having any idea where it actually is or what it looks like, but you'll know it when you get there.
Pokemon has four OHKO moves, though. Fissure, sheer cold, guillotine, and horn drill. Though, the way that game works, OHKOs can work in its PvP environment.
Those are all always banned in any serious match or competition. They also ban moves that give an enemy a chance to miss and a few other things. Pokemon PvP has a steady pacing based around either matching your poke's types and attack types versus the opponents and vice versa (essentially trying to always super effectively hit while resisting his attacks), or trying to stall by countering all of his threats with defenders that can slowly whittle them down. OHKOs do not fit into Pokemon at all. I'd guess Baton Pass teams are probably a lot stronger in the new gen so I guess that can be a third type of team, where at the start of the match you focus on super buffing your pokemon and then passing that buff to a super hard hitting mon that can sweep the entire enemy team, regardless of typing. But even this team has counterplay, as taking out the buff chain at any point basically wins you the match, as does getting off a Clear Smog or Haze, or priority Brave Birding it down with Talonflame, etc. There's counterplay.
How is it nothing like Fiora at all? Riposte clearly now blocks spells on top of auto-attacks. With a 0.75 second CD, you might as well be untargetable in a duel (you know, because she's a duelist). It would take multiple people piling on top of her to get through that, and even then she still is gonna have outs, because look at one of those skills listed and the implication of what it does. Disengage, with the implication looking like it's basically reverse Lunge. Lunge in, Disengage out, Riposte->Thrust in, Lunge, Disengage, Lunge, Riposte->Thrust, Disengage, etc. Keeping in mind as well that you don't even need to Riposte every thing the opponent does, because if it's a skillshot, it'll be hard for them to hit you with you dancing all around them. If you're a skilled player, you just classic Blade Waltzed them, except you had to actually hit buttons instead of sitting back and watching it go on its own for a couple seconds so now suddenly you look more pro. Plus you have more control over it. Man, remember when you just really wanted to focus a certain target, but there were multiple opponents there so who Blade Waltz targeted was beyond your control? You can fix that now.
This is definitely what we're striving for. If you break Blade Waltz down to its primal components, it's a bunch of dashes, it makes you invulnerable, and it does damage. All of those pieces are there on her kit already (with a few enhancements for example to the Riposte).
@Guinsoo I don't know if you'll see this, but I have a simple request: Make Fiora's ult like Riven's, where she gets buffed but also has the ability to use it.
That's definitely a possibility I'm open to. Maybe a Coup de Grace to end the ultimate. Sounds kinda neat. Filed away.
The reason I bring this up is that, from the ultimate tooltip, it seems like she can't normally parry while moving. While it's an early iteration, that is a dangerous game you play, as ADCs are often just as squishy as they are deadly, and need every once of mobility they can get. If her kit feels overloaded to you in playtesting, I would find another place to stick the cap on her power rather than do it to her mobility.
I don't disagree with this point. The benefit to starting with Riposte as an immobile spell are multifold. First, it makes the Blade Waltz enhancement to it feel super epic; second, it puts maximum counterplay into the opponent's hands to counter out the extreme defensive capabilities in the skill, matching most closely the fantasy of extreme counterplay between Fiora and opponent; and third it allows us to increase the power budget in a successful Riposte to the maximum (because it's harder to pull off).

We are definitely not opposed to making it more mobile if it doesn't work out well, but this is the appropriate starting point, I think. We'd definitely have to make it weaker in terms of amount of damage blocked and/or return Thrust damage dealt if she could normally move during it.
Rapiers are a bit outdated, but I think they're equivalent to the modern foil. Foil is the lightest and generally the fastest of the three weapons, so she probably should be having a bit of a faster kill potential, unless we're assuming that the other champions are more durable than the average human (which is fair assumption).
This is definitely the case. I've always thought fencing was about maintaining a maximum defense (so you don't die) while looking for the opening to kill the opponent, so that by fighting in this manner if you don't make any mistakes you would never die and would beat any opponent who made a mistake. But it becomes slightly different in the world of League of Legends where a single sword wound will never kill an opponent. I'd imagine that in that world, fencing would be about being able to inflict maximum damage output while minimizing 'great risk' (since both parties can afford to take a couple hits, I suspect you would no longer opt for a 100% defense strategy).
@Guinsoo
First of all welcome back. Second, I love the new idea for the ultimate. I think it is a brilliant change to making her feel more thematically relevant and interesting as well as adding a lot more gameplay. A few things I think everyone is super unclear about right now is the passive which I think would work great having something like what Ashe has with critical striking. Also is there any way we could get rid of the AP ratios on her kit and replace those with ad? I feel like riposte/parrying would have nothing magical about them.
Yeah to be honest I'm not super stoked with where the (new) passive is at, it's a fairly generic steroid that we plan to replace with something more relevant once we get a good grasp for exactly how her gameplay flows. I have several ideas for different ones I'd like to try out to encourage various target selection/gameplay choices.
Guinsoo, the fighters that you have created, Tryndamere and Kayle, both have a incredible late game power, probably they're like a top 5 champions when the topic is "late game power".
Is Fiora going to have a powerful late game, or she will be more stronger at early - mid game? What do you think that is better for Fiora?
That's a good question that I think as a design team we haven't fully solved - what exactly should a melee ADC's power curve look like with respect to time? I think we did make strides with the new Yi and Yasuo. I guess in an ideal world I'd like her to be fairly well rounded, maybe shading slightly weak in the early going and leaning slightly strong in the late game. But at the end of the day I want her to be about her abilities and how well she used them. But this is a very complicated question whose answer will likely change or become more defined over time, as we discover what exactly she's capable of, what feels good, what exactly we want to emphasize about the actual mechanical skills themselves.
Just in regards to managing expectations, since you have become really active suddenly, will this rework be a really long way off? I know I personally am looking forward to it, so here's hoping for a soon rather than soon(tm) release.
I'm not clear about the timeline at all, so I can't even give you a vague "soon™" or "not soon™". I have a meeting about it tomorrow, but I don't think I'll be able to share too many details. At this point I don't even know if she's planned to be tied to an art rework, new VO, or anything like that.

After I combed through 50 pages looking for all my posts, I found the "next Riot post" feature. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

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Comments

  • #32 darkwolfinator

    You know vi can be good top laner. Vi with tele will be like having second jungler. OP

  • #24 DemonFromEL0Hell

    We actually see Renekton as one of the more interesting top lane champions in the game, and so instead of nerfing here, we're looking to buff.

    So basically to make sure everyone understands here, Renekton is the chosen one (kind of like how riven was for so long lol broken wing) and to make sure every one clearly understand this rito is looking to buff the already toxic champ with little counter play..... unless of course you wanna play satan himself aka teemo or ryze.

  • #25 bloodmoth13

    you misunderstood the statement. they think renekton makes for a good lane experience, and is strong as is, their plans arent to buff him but to buff other champions up to his level, so rather than expecting riot to go insane and buff renekton even more, they will be buffing other fighters and top laners to be able to compete with him in lane.

    so they think his power level is fine, but other top laners could be brought inline to match his strength. essentially, his powerlevel is where they want top laners to be

    also please dont play teemo

  • #26 DemonFromEL0Hell
    Quote from bloodmoth13 »

    you misunderstood the statement. they think renekton makes for a good lane experience, and is strong as is, their plans arent to buff him but to buff other champions up to his level, so rather than expecting riot to go insane and buff renekton even more, they will be buffing other fighters and top laners to be able to compete with him in lane.

    so they think his power level is fine, but other top laners could be brought inline to match his strength. essentially, his powerlevel is where they want top laners to be

    also please dont play teemo

    i just find it hard the believe that they will buff "other top laners" to be on Renekton's level, and if they do make those big of changes i think they would hold if off till next season to make everything feel fresh.

  • #27 bloodmoth13

    They want to buff other champs up to his level, his lane strength only applies to top lane, and most bruisers have a hard time in other lanes. Try think of him as the top lane police, he keeps the yoricks and vladimirs out. (actually im not too familiar with who the abusable top laners are, but i know that riot hates yorick)

    basically they want a bunch of renekton level champs up top, and if they nerf renekton, it may turn into a mage meta up top or something. they like a lane for bulky champs and see renekton as the posterchild. hopefully next patch will create some major changes to the top lane meta with new champs?

  • #29 Daromith

    Why do you find it hard to believe? Dosn't really make sense not to. When riot says they are going to do something, They do it, for better or for worse. Its going to happen.

  • #33 Tboxparty

    I main teemo, and sometimes ryze but renekton is just too strong, teemo and ryze cant out damage renekton or out sustain him. Also they are weaker in defensive stats than renekton. Hes just waaay too broken and now i just see everyone playing renekton i changed my main role to mid, jungle and support just not to see renektons in my lane.

  • #23 TheHybridReaver

    I think Riot should leave feral flare as is. Wriggles as an item provides very weak combat stats, but provides huge rewards late game. This is the style of item that all the AA based junglers are centered around, such as Yi and Nocturne, get items and scale to mid/late game. This contrasts to the spirit items, which provide decent combat stats early but are only kept late game for extra smite damage. Players need to adapt to the addition of Feral flare by snowballing all 3 lanes while the opposing jungler is trying to upgrade their wriggles. If you can't gank, then you invade their jungles since you should be stronger than them. (early game spirit item stats>wriggles low combat stats vs champs)

  • #20 Arcane_Azmadi

    Oh wow, Riot actually remembered Fiora exists!

    Fiora is simply the worst champion Riot have ever released. Undertuned, uncreative, one-dimensional, inflexible and just downright WEAK, she doesn't bring much of anything to a team and is completely overshadowed by Yi, Jax, Riven, Yasuo, Trynd and pretty much everyone else. Which is a pity because I think she's actually quite fun to play. She's been completely ignored for longer than possibly any champ other than Sejuani (and Sej was NEVER as bad as Fiora) and almost completely forgotten by everyone outside of a few diehards and Rule 34 crowd (dat ass!).

  • #21 McJix

    At least she fills the void that Evelynn left us with after her rework.

  • #28 Awol
    Quote from Arcane_Azmadi »

    She's been completely ignored for longer than possibly any champ other than Sejuani

    um, i guess you forgot about the fact Trundle went almost 2 years without a nerf/buff?(not counting quality of life changes) or are you referring to people playing it and not Rito.

  • #15 Marauderx

    This "Renekton Bar" approach is idiotic.

    I guess its time to main Renekton since apparently he gets the unique honor among champions to be insulated from radical change (or frankly much change at all apparently). That way i don't say waste a bunch of time playing Gragas only to have him warped into some other champion forced from his primary role and most common playstyle.


    I think its pretty lame one champion gets the unique honor of this protection but might as well exploit the **** out of it.

    I wonder if this means that Ryze will get nerfed just because he gives Renekton too hard of a time top lane? I wonder which champions Riot will decide belong in the top lane and get these nudges? God forbid they just put out champions and let the playerbase decide where to take them depending on picks and such.

    They should just make all future patch notes for champs Riot approved for top to read like, "Well Jax was struggling to match Renekton's sustain with his damage in order to stay in lane so we blah blah blah blah."

    Seems like a stupid method to judge balance and the fact that they are stating publicly that's their plan is mind boggling.

  • #17 ksharrison

    90% of time Riot gets flak for approaching balance with nerfs in mind; now, here comes the criticism for trying to leave things as they are and instead buff others up to current level.

    I guess it really is true that you can't please everyone.

  • #18 Arekualkhemi

    Because I think that Renekton with his manaless nature and double dash is the wrong champion to orientate the others around. He is an unhealthy lane bully that needs to get fixed.

  • #19 Arcane_Azmadi

    I agree. Manaless champions are inherently unhealthy to the game and should not set the standard for others. Not saying I think they should be removed or anything, but Renekton should not be setting the bar- nor should Shyvana, Riven, Mundo or (heaven forbid) Garen.

  • #30 CosmicDarklord

    But they have to tune ryze all the time cause his kit is inherently toxic. Theres a reason he was nerfed last season. Point and click no skill- High damage low cool downs tanky and high movement speed. Wins most match ups. Late game champ. 


    Renekton- Fury bar managment- important can decide level 2 all ins.-2 skill shots technically.-tanky and rather slow besides intial dash. Wins most match ups but gets outscaled

    One is suppose to be early i think they could keep ryze strong without constantly changing him if they made it actually risky to play like melee auto attacks. Also it is risky to play renekton cause if you fall behind you have the hardest time coming back and even getting back even is behind as you dont scale well

  • #31 ksharrison

    The problem if you nerf Ryze is someone else takes his place.  Your suggestion to put him closer in melee range is exactly what they did to nerf him last season - they nerfed his spell ranges to make him take more risks.  The problem is that players stop playing Ryze, and then they just pick a different champion.  They need to fix some problems with top laners as a whole before they can put some champions into a healthy spot.  Until they do that, every champion who is played will seem really OP.

    That said, I am personally against hyper carries because the definition of a hyper carry is a champion who wins the game late game; there is no real counterplay.

    As for Renekton, he is almost more OP than Ryze, although it's not obvious because he gets outscaled.  For a pro who can play him properly, he will never need to outscale because he will always destroy his lane.  Like, if you play correctly, it is impossible to fall behind with him early game.  If you do, you just played bad.  There's not a whole lot of risk, but Riot has recently taken some steps to balance Renekton's power curve by weakening his early game and buffing his late game slightly.  I'm ok with that.

  • #14 austgriff

    Fiora is finally becoming usable and she is being changed? Why change her? Also, I think Feral Flare is fine, it actually makes a lot of junglers more viable, which isn't a bad thing.

  • #7 xdxAngeloxbx

    Glad to hear they're doing something with Lissandra!

  • #4 bloodmoth13

    We actually see Renekton as one of the more interesting top lane champions in the game, and so instead of nerfing here, we're looking to buff.

    So who do you think they are planning on buffing to compete in top lane? and how?

    renekton has sustain and is manaless and has a strong/safe harass pattern, so will they be making more champs manaless to compete?
    alot of champs cant compete because they cant harass on cooldown due to mana constraints, i could see alot of bruisers losing mana to be honest, as it doesnt really add to much gameplay for melee fighters. but at the same time, imagine manaless udyr?

    either more fighters need to be manaless or manaless fighters should get given mana. (i could see darius and trundle losing mana)

    who do you think they will buff and why?

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