Jungle Timers Q&A, IronStylus On Caitlyn VU, WizardCrab Answers More Commercial Questions, Yorick's Rework Delayed, Sale

IMPORTANT: Unofficial PBE Patch Notes for 6/23/2014 - Hazmat Heimer Splash, HH Caitlyn Sounds, Minimap Icons, Jungle Timers, Nidalee Changes
IMPORTANT: Summoner's Rift Preview, LoL Design Values: In-Depth With Clarity

Jungle Timers Q&A

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Will the new timers include blue and red?
If you steal the enemy's buffs will you see a timer for those?

Yes, blue and red are tracked. You'll get the timer for a camp if you have vision of the camp when it's cleared, if not you'll just know that it's not up, but not when it will come back (same functionality as the current minimap icons).

so both teams red and blue right

Same functionality for all camps yes, each team has easier access to one red and one blue buff, but there's nothing that inherently binds either of them to a specific team beyond that.

What's exactly Riot thought process to add jungle timers? I don't see any but to help out those that find it too hard to type down timers.

Nome's got a detailed right up of our thought process that can be found here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/new...-depth-clarity

Short version is that we want to support players showing skill through their play against other players, rather than via a somewhat book keeping like exercise. Thinking about and assessing different objectives while handling moment to moment actions as well? Cool, generates interesting play with a great mastery curve. Remembering to type '15:30 drag' into chat? Mainly just an administrative task once you've gotten into the habit.

Perhaps we should eliminate csing? Cuz really it is just pointing and clicking after a certain point and players should be able to spend their time thinking about and assessing different objectives without remembering to click on the minion that is almost dead.

Last hitting offers a lot of gameplay. When to go for a last hit, how to balance CSing against harassing your opponent, how quickly to push or not push a wave, when it's worth passing on CS, when to shove versus stall, whether to use resources (mana, ammo, CDs etc) to get CS you'd otherwise miss etc. Farming well has a very high skill curve, assuming you're against an opponent of at least broadly similar skill, with a lot of time pressure and some requirement for mechanical skill in addition to decision making. Tracking a buff by contrast requires typing a message into chat when you've got a free moment with little potential to be a better buff tracker than any other player performing the same action.

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

My primary concerns were giving too much free information and screen clutter, having to press tab to see timers helps with that

Yeah - we iterated on that part a lot for that reason. Not giving any NEW information was super important - vision = info is good

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

For jungle timers, why do we use a countdown instead of an absolute game time? The answer: cognitive load.

Let's walk through the mental steps in how we utilize a time stamp (absolute game time).
1. We look at the timer, 24:00 Baron.
2. We look at the current time, 22:00.
3. We perform the mental math, 2 minutes until Baron.
4. We formulate a plan: "2 minutes until Baron, I should be in position."

Now let's see how we utilize a countdown (relative game time).
1. We look at the timer (2:00 to Baron)
2. We formulate a plan: "2 minutes until Baron, I should be in position."

With absolute time, we need two points of reference: current time and spawn time, and using that we perform the mental math necessary to complete the task. With relative time, the countdown itself is the actionable information. That said, players have become accustomed to using absolute times--and we acknowledge that. Our initial implementation will be countdown-early; we don't want to rule out an absolute timing option, but let's see how players adapt first!

Originally Posted by Riot (View Original Source)

Just my 2 cents: Given the fact that an objective was mistimed in the LCS (by SKT T1, if I remember correctly).. Everyone is saying "what's so hard about adding 6 to the game clock" but doesn't the fact that mistimings happen in the highest level of play mean that it's something that adds depth to the game? Just like a lot of other things in this game, it's mechanically easy, but people just decide not to do it. Hence giving an opponent a significant advantage that will no longer exist.

Good catch! We were aware of this incident when we began the project. It comes down to what we want to consider "skill" in the game and what we don't--but we've run through that argument many times in the dev blog and elsewhere, so I won't bore you with it here.

Rather, consider this--do we want to use this as an example of why we shouldn't make a change? Various things have historically caused players to slip up; do we really want poor UI feedback to be one of them? Looking retrospectively is one of the best ways to make these evaluations--what if we didn't tell you allied ultimate cooldowns? Should you know how many minions your opponents have killed? At some point, you have to draw a line between skill and tedium. With timing, that line is drawn somewhere between enemy cooldowns and jungle timers. The skill in timing objectives is a binary--you either do it right or you don't; there's not varying degrees of success. Where the skill comes out, and what we want to emphasize, is how you utilize that information. Hope this is insightful!

You mention that the line is somewhere between jungle timers and enemy cooldowns, so what does that mean for enhanced ally cooldowns? It would be fantastic, for instance, to be able to see the exact cooldown of an ally's Ult and maybe even their summoner spells.

I don't want to rule this out in the future. From my perspective, a lot of this is finding a way to show the information without overloading players. An example here is when we tried (internally) coloring the buff camps Red and Blue on the minimap. It added information, but actually decreased the ease of reading the minimap. There's obviously some pretty simple solutions to showing allied cooldowns (e.g., on the score screen), but we want to make sure that we fully investigate all vectors of the issue before making a decision (and also prioritize that against other competing projects for the Clarity team to tackle).

IronStylus On Caitlyn VU

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

IronStylus, when the VU does come will it be different enough to warrant doing a traditional skin?

There are differing views on this.

Initially I thought we might be able to just replace her base and be done with it, then I ran an experiment.

I worked on a concept for her for fun last year, just for the hell of it. It stemmed from a paint-over I did over her in-game model quite a while ago for some style guide exploration. I messed around with removing the dress and giving her pants actually. It was sorta cool. I left the upper part of her body in tact to an extent, mainly just updating the style of the clothing. So she sort of had a bullet-proof corset/bustier thing as well as exposed shoulders with long gloves and also updated the hat. Fine enough, I guess.

Later I tried doing a front-on concept with this paint over in mind. I did the same design, leaving the shoulders and upper chest exposed. I gave her sort of a half-coat that had short sleeves. Kept the pants, but let the coat replace the silhouette for skirt. It seemed to work fairly well.

Only problem was the exposed skin. The more I tried to update her fashion, add functionality, and tell the story of her being a sheriff, the more the exposed skin just didn't make sense. Honestly it just looked awkward, like I was exposing skin for exposing skin's sake.

I had made a conscious decision to a) make her feel like the sheriff of a major faction, b) make her stylistically fit in with Vi, Jayce and Jinx, and c) give functionality to her gun, hat, clothing, etc to reinforce those themes, while also trying to make her feel distinctly Caitlyn.

So, I started filling in the holes. I threw out everything in my head that I knew of Caitlyn in terms of what she was and looked at things from the perspective of designing a new character. Given all that above info, what would I design? I could hit those notes of feeling representative of Piltover. I could match her with existing characters. I could make her gear work. Even if someone gave me the ambiguous instruction of "make her feel distinct", there were things I could do. Hell, the hat, gun and fashionable silhouette are the most distinct reads she has, so leveraging those pretty much sums up the path I should take.

So I executed on that. I designed what I felt a one-sheet on her should describe. Sheriff, part of a specific cast of characters, iconic of a specific city-state.

I got a lot of positive feedback on it. That's not to say it was, or will be the final word, but people who did approach me said that it achieved the things they wanted Caitlyn to be without sacrificing what made her, her. Now by no means does that say the job of a potential VU concept for her is done. A few other people had differing notes of feedback, which I totally understood, and wanted to take a crack at addressing in any further exploration.

The concept did change my mind though considering a traditional skin. I didn't feel as though I could completely replicate everything about Caitlyn. I updated her, I made her more cohesive, but I didn't 1-for-1 things. That's the inherent rub of the job. By the results of exploring the concept, I felt as though I couldn't necessarily have my cake and eat it too (no pun intended). I couldn't completely capture the feeling of the incongruous charm despite getting a warm reception by other artists who took a look at it. But that's the thing. Caitlyn isn't consistent with what the other cast members have set up at the moment, and if our goal is to introduce some consistency, then I probably couldn't keep a lot of those contrasts. I could objectively make something cool, but it might not address what charm may or may not be lost in the eyes of enthusiasts.

So there's the cost-benefit. Remove some of the incongruity, loose some of the charm. That has to be analysed to see if it's worth it. My feeling is that what I did was a big enough of a departure to warrant a traditional skin. However, some people disagreed. They felt the concept I did was a fine replacement. I currently don't feel that way.

So, given my experience, I would ere on the side of including a traditional skin, but I am in no way sure that if she ever does get a VU that we'd make one. Right now she's on the radar but nothing is planned. Maybe she'll get overhauled, maybe not. We'll see. My personal feeling is that I'd like to see a traditional skin.

But maybe that's just me trying to have my cake-trap and eat it too.

WizardCrab Answers More Commercial Questions

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hey WizardCrab....Whats the status on Dragon Master Swain? ;O

No clue :/

But will there be Kog'Maw? Will we finally have a way to cuddle with our cute little void puppy?

Also, will that tri-force baseball cap that was on Jinx a while go be released in Riot's own store whenever that happens? I liked that it didn't explicitly say LoL but is instantly recognizable to players.

For what it's worth, I forwarded this post to the appropriate people

On a similar note, do you think that Announcer Packs like those in DotA 2 and HoN might ever be possible? Riot seems to have a relationship with many big community figures, outsides ones employed like Phreak or Deficio, but also at least some sort of relationship with big youtubers and streamers like LilyPichu, HotshotGG, and others. I'm sure many people, including myself, would love to buy these. Come on, it's like you guys don't want money.

Possible? Yes. Pretty much anything is possible.
I couldn't comment on if we would do that for sure though.

What about the IP aspect? Would it be possible to give out monthly refunds for IP and not RP? For example, each month we could receive 2 or 3 refunds for IP up to a cap so we can't save more than that while we still only have 3 refunds for RP that won't be renewed?

Then you can just buy champs with IP and refund them and make that your F2P rotation each month. Which we don't want either.

I havent looked back through this thread (lol 29 pages), but please, mystical crustacean, will we one day be able to make wishlists within the client?
By wishlists I mean a list we can put Champions, Skins, ward skins, summoner icons, whatever is in the store on and allow for easy access from our friends?
Do you realize how troublesome it can be trying to gift someone something specific but not knowing what they prioritize more? Or wanting to get someone something, say, for their birthday, but not wanting to ask them outright what it is they want (that just ruins the surprise man)? A simple wishlist, which provides shortcuts to the items in the store, would make gifting a lot easier.

Man I hope so. It's definitely something we'd like.

Can we get a real "Top Sellers" list in the store? One that is updated at least daily and has more than just the top 5? I know it isn't terribly important, but it would be interesting to see. You can't tell me High Noon Yasuo, Vel'Koz, Battlecast Vel'Koz, and Mafia Jinx still hold #2-5 even after the release of numerous skins and Braum.

Would you want the top sellers of the day? Of the week? Month? Year? What other things might you want to see on the front page of the store.

Yorick's Rework Delayed By Sion

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Hey guys
It has been months, almost a year since Xelnath started to talk about a possible Rework to Yorick.
What happened with him? Isn't he high enough in the priority list to get a kit / Visual rework or are you struggling somehow else?
Also what determines if a Champion is on the "high priority" list?

I am not on reworks at the moment. After discussion, Yorick got moved down the list, relative to Sion and another bloke who will get confirmed sometime after Sion.

I'm afraid I don't have access to the list, but in general:

* How badly is the design impacting players
* How appealing could this character be if rebuilt well
* How many months of development will need to be invested in new art

Champion and Skin Sale

Originally Posted by Riot (View RedTracker Source)

Skin Sales

Give your champions a new look with these skins:


Ice Drake Shyvana

975 487 RP

Tyrant Swain

1350 675 RP

Marble Malphite

520 260 RP

Champion Sales

Add these champions to your roster:


975 487 RP



880 440 RP



585 292 RP



  • #25 Rickrosee

    yayyyyy caitlyn is one of my favorites :D

  • #23 FizzKhalifa

    They may swell add cool down timers for every champions skills visible to all...

  • #22 Watermeat

    Timing buffs has always been fake difficulty. It's not really that difficult to do at all, but it's just remembering to do it. Complexity for the sake of complexity.

    I don't mind doing it, now I've got into the habit, but I don't really think that manual timing adds anything to the game. Knowing when drake's going to respawn lets you arrange yourself and your team to prepare beforehand and organise you to gather there, but why would it make a difference whether you personally timed it or you were given the timer?

    I'm pretty ambivalent to the changes, as they won't effect my games too much, but I think they're a net plus for league in general.

  • #18 KitsuneRTC

    ANOTHER BLOKE!!!! GANGPLANK?????? please please please please :)

  • #16 Crayonsnacha

    I think i'd pay out the ass for a Lilypichu announcer voice.

  • #17 Kingbizkit

    My god yes.

  • #13 Kazaanh

    Readabillity will kill this game.

  • #12 TheRealCoxinator

    Yo, Sion is getting more play than Yorick, please for the love of GOD don't delay his update, been waiting for this for 2 years.

  • #20 Xitli

    Yorick is annoying to play against, and a bit boring to play as, but he's got a 50% winrate and is great for counterpicking certain champions. I wouldn't deny that he could use a rework but Sion is much older, much uglier, and generally needs the rework much more desperately. Also, I checked Lolking and Sion's also getting played less, so...

  • #21 Rahvin90210

    I feel you, I love the summoner/necromancer class and Yorick is totally unfulfilled in that regard. I saddened me to hear he had been delayed even further :(.

  • #8 jim1608

    Knowing the timers for the buffs/dragon/baron is just the less interactive and important part of the objective control game.

    Does it really matter if you know Dragon will spawn in one minute when your ADC stays bot farming forever or your top with teleport is just around clearing camps on the enemy side of the map?

    At least if Riot adds the timers in the game people will finally realize how important those objectives are. I get really sad when I'm supporting and by 30 minutes neither team got a single dragon. Makes me feel like my warding is useless when no one goes for it...

    The "skill" involved on controlling objectives is not present on knowing when they will spawn, but actually knowing what to do and where to position (as a team) to contest them or capitalize on the enemies' attempt at it. I've seen many times people just blindly typing the timers on the chat but never actually being there to get it.

    Heck, in YOLOqueue I get surprised and how my teams never know when the enemy is doing drag/baron. A skilled player don't NEED vision to know the enemy movement. Maybe having timers will make people realize it's am objective-oriented team game, not just a 1v1 fighting game like many think.

  • #10 Rahvin90210

    And to add to that I think these changes will simultaneously emphasize the skill of good junglers, while also helping players new to the jungling role.

  • #2 Gameguy301

    I cant wait for these jungle timers, I know alot of people dont like them and it is a polarizing issue but I really like the idea behind it. Timing buffs is something I have been doing since season 1, it has brought me great success, season 2 using high speed control junglers and aggressive jungle timing to crush games was fantastic.

    Does everyone time buffs? no of course not, is bothering to time camps a skill that separates good players from bad? of course it is. but does providing timers to everyone dumb the game down? i don't think so. I think providing timers to everyone will "elevate the game", the general skill level of the entire playerbase from the bottom up will increase as a direct result of team wide automated jungle timing, the closer low level play resembles high level play, the closer balance changes remain effective and appropriate across all skill levels. we saw this is in season 3 when they changed passive and last hitting gold income.

    with solo queue teams actively responding to jungle timing things like map rotations and coordinated invades will be much more important previously reserved for only high skill players. as they say talent breeds talent, the masses suddenly gaining a skill that takes dozens of games to perfect means you too must elevate your game to keep above the rising tide.

    the order of magnitude goes like this

    1. did you time the buff?

    2. did you position for the buff ahead of time?

    3. did you get vision control of the buff before hand?

    4. how is your teamfighting?

    5. how well can you capitolize / mitigate a post fight situation.

    as far  as im concerned bronzies skipping step 1 and getting a little reminder to do step 2 elevates the skill of the playerbase at large from the bottom up, what will separate the good from the bad from now on is how well they manage steps 2-5. not only does getting low level players to grasp high level concpets faster increase the skill of the player base at large, but bridgeing the frankly alien worlds of high skill play and low skill play makes riots pro scene trickledown down approach to game balance more effective at all levels of play.

    Last edited by Gameguy301: 6/24/2014 3:21:45 PM
  • #1 Strinnityk

    This is probably just the opinion of an old school LoL player (I've been here since the end of beta), but saying "Tracking a buff by contrast requires typing a message into chat" makes me quite angry on the inside.

    Meh, I was gonna write quite a long post but suddenly I don't feel like it anymore. 

    The insinuation that buff and monster objectives control doesn't involve a lot of Gameplay has hit me so hard I can't even process that bull****. What's gonna be the next step? A visual effect and sound when you can perfectly smite the objective? Just... Zzzzzzzz.... I'm going to sleep

    Edit: Format

    Last edited by Strinnityk: 6/23/2014 10:28:21 PM
  • #3 ExaltedVanguard

    There's plenty of gameplay about the objective itself. There's no gameplay in memorizing timers. It's just shifting more player focus from tedious math toward strategy and tactics.

    ...and there's already a visual effect that lets you know when to smite. It's called HP. Left click on the monster and look at the number...

  • #5 Strinnityk

    With visual effect I meant sparkles around the objective when his hp is equal or lower the smite damage you can deal, or something like that. (What you call visual effect in my dictionary stands for User Interface).

    And I'm sorry, but adding 5, 6 or 7 to a integer is not 'tedious math'. Distracting? I can agree with that, but not tedious.

    'There's plenty of gameplay about the objective itself.' Yes, I concur with that. But there's also a lot of gameplay around setting your strategy on time and on being aware that you need to set it.

    Anyway, I don't feel like arguing over this, too sleepy and I know it's a lost battle already.

    Last edited by Strinnityk: 6/23/2014 10:46:19 PM
  • #9 Benegesserit

    It's a lost battle because your argument is devoid of logic.

    Setting your strat based on the time does not change with this update. "Being aware that you need to set it" is a short term habit (like remembering to buy items before going to lane) and then after that it is definitely 100% boring administrative task. How about making the game not ever show you your gold count? You can keep track of that yourself through "skill". You're notified for every gold gain anyway so to prove you're "pro" Riot should just have you track your own gold /s

    Last edited by Benegesserit: 6/24/2014 2:56:58 AM
  • #14 Cobaltcords
    Quote from Strinnityk »

    With visual effect I meant sparkles around the objective when his hp is equal or lower the smite damage you can deal, or something like that. (What you call visual effect in my dictionary stands for User Interface).

    And I'm sorry, but adding 5, 6 or 7 to a integer is not 'tedious math'. Distracting? I can agree with that, but not tedious.

    'There's plenty of gameplay about the objective itself.' Yes, I concur with that. But there's also a lot of gameplay around setting your strategy on time and on being aware that you need to set it.

    Anyway, I don't feel like arguing over this, too sleepy and I know it's a lost battle already.

    Well, if basic addition is exciting to you, more power to ya, but the rest of us find it pretty boring.

  • #15 colbywolf

    You're probably gonna laugh at me, but..  here goes anyway:  Everyone has heard of dyslexia.  It's when you have trouble reading because letters get turned around.  Considerably fewer people have heard of dyscalculia...

    Dyscalculia is a learning disability focused around numbers.  Not just adding them together but understanding them.  We have trouble reading analog clocks, we have hesitation when you ask us which is bigger: 427 or 274.  We go shopping and have no idea how much is in our cart, despite looking at all the prices carefully when we put them in there.  I've never balanced my checkbook successfully on the first try. I'm ALWAYS late because I cna't manage to keep track of time.  Even 2 or 3 minutes.  I'm 30 and I still have to look down at my hands to remember which is my left hand.  East and west are confusing and I have to start at the top and murmur "north east south west" to figure out which direction I'm talking about.  My career as an artist died because  I have no sense of mental visualization. I cannot tell you how big something is. or how far away it is.  I also am shit with remembering faces and names.    and, perhaps most of all:  

    My ability to do mental math of any sort is paralyzingly bad.  while for you, adding 8 and 6 together comes easily. I..  have to stop and think about it.  I actually end up 'solving' that one by taking 1 from the 8 and giving it to the 6 so I"m adding 7 and 7, which I KNOW is 14.   I still count on my fingers because I HAVE to.  Or if I"m not counting on my fingers, I'm counting on a mental representation of my fingers, though that only works for small numbers.  Adding 5, 6 or 7 to a number is...  not just tedious is distracting, it's HARD.  

    I watch my friends sit there and do mental math easily.  adding or subtracting 3 or 4 digit numbers with ease, doing division in their head...    It's a mystery to me.  

    Dyscalculia is *as common* as Dyslexia-- 3 to 6% of the population has it.  However, those of us who have it are generally told that we're just bad at math, focus on art or reading or something.  It's pretty disheartening over all, honestly.  I wanted to be a scientist as a kid.  "Well, dear, you need to be better at math for that"  "... Oh." I said, giving up my dreams.

    All of this is a really long winded way of saying: I really love that they're adding a countdown, as it helps level the playing field in a way similar to how color blind mode does for my husband.

  • #19 klocugh12

    Cho and Darius already have such indicators regarding their ult.

    And going by your logic Yasuo's E or Udyr's E shouldn't have indicators either, amirite?

    Last edited by klocugh12: 6/24/2014 12:34:41 PM
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