Lord Van Damms pillager moved to summoned rift

  • This is one of the seven new twisted tree line exclusive items being tested on the pbe.. I tried out the new twisted treeline with kha zix and purchased this item and it worked really well.. I feel they should move this item to summoners rift as well cause it would surely help out ad caster champs such as kha zix and talon.
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Pillager needs to be on SR. It works so well with a lot of bruisers. </td></tr></table>
    I'm just going to bite the bullet and say this is pretty much the reason why Pillager shouldn't touch SR ever; unless you want every Bruiser build to start with 'First, get your pillager and then get your second Heart of Gold.' Also, because every Bruiser ever has this - you can pretty much say goodbye to any pure AD caster as there's very little reason to take them over a Bruiser with Pillager. A Bruiser with Pillager will simply far outclass anything an AD Caster will ever do with it - mostly because SV/CDR don't actually work on pure assassins to begin with.

    And the portion of the game it would help them the most, the lane sustain part, is also inaccessible because Pillager is a high-tier item. Paying 3k to be able to sustain in lane seems pretty poor if SV/CDR don't actually help you in fights as an assassin. Pillager essentially turns every AD Caster into a Bruiser and every Bruiser into a Beast beyond imaginable, which is fine - but you have to remember that at the end of the day, the game has to be balanced... so.. something has to give. :x

    As to why it's not a problem on Twisted Treeline - there's a couple of factors that prevent Pillager from being crazy out of line on TT as it would be on SR:

    1. Heart of Gold isn't good on Twisted Treeline. You don't hold onto Heart of Gold for that long. The Gold per 5 gain is pretty minimal from the item itself.

    2. Flat Armor Penetration is great *if* you can reliably count on a target to reduce down to minimal armor. However, on Twisted Treeline, survivability is almost always a given - thus your target selection is poor. While there *might* be a hyper-carry comp in some games, you're probably going to run into a slugfest more often or not.

    3. Items, in general, need to be far stronger on TT than SR in a lot of cases to compensate for the fact that certain classes don't do anything to each other in a 3v3 setting versus a 5v5 setting. This is why a lot of the 'long grindy' items tend to need to be stronger - there's just less damage overall. This is also why SV/CDR makes a lot more sense on TT - fights drag out longer because there's just less overall damage floating around. (Recall SV / Dominion in the time where all fights were 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. SV was king and almost unbeatable on champions that could utilize it. There simply wasn't enough damage floating around to counteract the effect of single target SV - Go go Akali!)

    4. I'm not really sure the item is actually okay on TT. XD
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Also, AD Casters aren't by necessity assassins, it's just how many of them worked thus far. </td></tr></table>
    You're right in that it's *not* by necessity. However, let's take a look at how AD Casters are structured.

    1. You get the majority of your damage from spells.
    2. You don't get many opportunities to autoattack because your kit doesn't allow you to stick.
    3. Your autoattack is, however, amazing, because of all this AD you're building.

    That kind of paradigm naturally pushes AD Casters into being assassins.

    If #1 wasn't true, you're an autoattack based fighter, as you get very little damage from spells. You're not really a Caster at this point.

    If #2 isn't true, you're probably best as an auto-attack based fighter. As you can stick and can build damage - so you can probably rely on base damages and also hammer autoattacks off for maximum DPS, would means you should build tank rather than focusing on AD. You'd have to have zero base damage and amazing AD scaling for a sustained AD Caster Bruiser to work. While this isn't unheard of (Riven with BT/GA, for example, is in this paradigm) - it creates a host of other problems, such as - you are incredibly snowbally as a champion.

    If #3 isn't true, you're not an Attack Damage character.

    Because all 3 are typically true on an AD Caster character, they get rapidly hemmed into high damage burst combos that scale really well off AD with zero sticking power - which Assassin naturally fits the best in.

    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Then why does this item exist on TT? Bruisers are the one class that didn't need help there. </td></tr></table>
    As to why specifically the item exists on TT, you'll have to ask Nome directly on that. I assume he was just trying to give Bruisers a damage!/survivability route rather than straight survivability/survivability route. Because honestly, the major difficulty in 3v3 maps is that since we balance defenses around a 5v5 game - 3v3 maps have this weird tendency to degrade into 3 brick walls hitting each other ineffectively.

    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Would an item with only +ad and +spellvamp be an option to provide AD based assassins or casters </td></tr></table>
    The major problem is that Spell Vamp is only good for AD casters *in lane*, for a lot of cases. The average time you are alive in a team fight, assuming you haven't completely run away with the game is so short as to make the amount of Spell Vamp you have inconsequential to your survivability. Mostly because you can't build the resistances that would actually make it worth it.

    Contrast, Shyvana, who has 80 Armor / Magic Resistance during her Ultimate and is getting much more payoff from the Spell Vamp in general because she's geared as a sustained damage bruiser.

    AD Casters have enough of a problem scaling into late game as is, without introducing an item that has a trap stat for the late game. :/
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Urgot will never get his Spell Vamp AD Caster item...because everyone thinks Assassins are the only AD Casters.

    ENDLESS MISERY </td></tr></table>
    Well, there's a choice of two miseries for Urgot - you get to pick one!

    1. Urgot never gets "his" SV/AD Item.
    2. Bruisers with the SV/AD item destroy Urgot with "his" item.

    Although - actually, maybe one day we'll go back and do champion specific items to add new ways to play existing champions - but that project is kind of a pipe dream that's at least like 1+ years old at this point.
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Speaking of AD Assassin Itemization, Has there been any useful ( for design purposes) data on how assassins are building in Twisted Treeline? Has there any preference to say, Blade of the Ruined King over Sanguine blade? </td></tr></table>
    From what I've seen (and keep in mind this is completely anecdotal, just from watching the climb to Diamond from 3/4 teams) straight-up AD Assassins are pretty bad in Twisted Treeline.

    Mostly because they're really bad at the early fights and have to build glass to be effective.

    Ideally, you want someone who is good at team fights from level 1 *or* the ability to nullify the opponent's ability to engage / force a fight so you can farm out the game. Those are the two dominant strategies I've seen - but things might change.
  • Every single time we mention Mana/SV around here, someone's eyes light up - there's a pause and then says 'Ryze' like some revelation from on high.

    So yeah. It'd be kind of a tricky item.

    Honestly, if Mana *and* Sustain is an issue on a lot of these characters, my gut reaction is to go back and making Catalyst/BV decent again on them and seeing what it would take for that. That might mean that we experiment with an AD + Catalyst Item? It might be neat but it'll have to wait for the first round of changes before we iterate some more.
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> If SV was made source-unique for items (as in, you'll get only the highest SV amount of all the SV items you took), he'd trade damage for survivability, due to you having lowered his mana ratios and upped his AP ratios. </td></tr></table>
    SV being source-unique makes every SV item and WoTA look incredibly awkward in a lot of cases. That and I'm not sure SV being source-unique solves things much.

    The problem with SV is that ideally, when you have SV, you have a huge amount of resistances or some other kind of multiplicative synergy with it to make it good. This is because SV works off abilities, which typically grow linearly as the game progresses. Life Steal doesn't have this problem as the thing it drains off of, is itself exponential with game length. So to make SV as awesome as LS, you go SV + Resists or SV + Another Healing effect from AP. To make LS more awesome, you just keep building damage.

    This makes SV an incredibly odd stat to balance as any % will look incredibly off depending on how high the linear damage is. LS doesn't suffer from this. If you gave 80% Life Steal to an early game Ashe - she doesn't really feel too abusive because she deals zero damage and drains 80% of zero. If you gave 80% Life Steal to a late game Ashe, she still doesn't really feel that abusive because it's all overflow healing and she blows up in a second.

    SV, on the other hand, when it's good, is always found with something that makes a character naturally tanky - which leads to all sorts of oddities.
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;">
    However, I've also never come to any other conclusion except that spell vamp absolutely needs tailoring to specific heroes, there's no way for it to work in a balanced manner otherwise because of the simple nature of spell variety. Targetables vs. skill shots, high dmg high cd vs low dmg low cd, contextual interactions, too many variables to justify giving a flat value and saying all is well. At the very least, different tiers of SV within the cast need to be made. </td></tr></table>
    This is a very intuitive way to explain why SV is a difficult stat to balance. What works for one class is bound to cause problems for another class just because spells are the most varied things in our game - of course it'd be the one which has the weirdest and most complicated interactions to balance.
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    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> AD/Crit Jayce. W means no AS necessary. </td></tr></table>
    I'm pretty sure AD/Crit Jayce's pattern is the same as any single-target assassin. Look at a dude. Hit 'W'. Look at the fine bloody mist where there used to be a champion.