I'm a player on EU servers that got permabanned on May 2012 for obvious reasons. I was a 2k elo player and I had more than 3000 games with lots of money and time invested on that account but I couldn't learn from my mistakes and my "slip of tongue" eventually got me permabanned after four temporary bans. It's been almost 6 months since I got banned and I've tried almost anything to get my suspension lifted but nothing worked so far. I used to be toxic, I know it's my fault and all of my suspensions are well deserved but I also know that it's been a very long time and I'm a different person now, I realized that flaming people when they perform bad brings only harm and flaming trolls only make them troll harder. I have other level 30 accounts but the thing is I can't even enjoy the game without my first and main account, I can't even spend RP on another account when I have the hope of getting it back someday. Knowing that I can't get it back although I've fixed my manners makes me really sad.
I've tried my luck several times on EU forums for my ideas but sadly, got no attention from Rioters other than Ymir and he isn't really helpful. I have had a long conversation with Sresian on a ticket which I'll mention below, he found my suggestions good and told me to try forums if I really want to see them implemented. That's why I'm here.
Firstly, if you don't know the challenge I'm talking about... There used to be a challenge offered by Riot to permabanned players to get their account back. To succeed, suspended player should make a new account and get it to level 20 without getting several reports. Proof, edit 2 part.
This challenge is removed 8 months ago because Riot thought it wasn't effective enough and it breeds toxicity in low level games problem. Direct quote from Sresian
Please understand that I am being honest and have been since the start of this ticket. We simply do not have anything to offer you to get your account back. We have a challenge we could offer months ago, but we stopped doing that for multiple reasons and at this time we do not offer any way to gain an account back after a permanent suspension. So while I understand your frustration and wanting your account back, we simply cannot do anything for you at this time. This may change again in the future, but I do not have any information on when, if at all, that might happen. I do apologize.
My response
I understand. I can guess the reasons you're talking about. Those users probably kept their negative behavior and ruined low level games, thus you decided that the feature wasn't effective enough to be kept. I had a thread on forums related to this issue, my suggestion was to unlock those banned accounts for a limited amount of normal games so that low level players' gaming experience won't be ruined and banned players' progress will be easier to observe since they won't use a different account. Maybe you can consider this in the future. I'm sure when people play on their own account instead of a low level one they'll be more careful about their actions, at least they should be.
His response to this
I'm so glad to hear that I am able to be helpful to you. There were multiple reasons why we removed it, but you have a good suggestion and I would suggest to continue to post about it on the forums. The more feedback you gather, the better the idea will become and the more likely it is that we can look at it as something to implement.
My final response which nobody answered.
While you disagree with me on the issue that permanent suspensions are ineffective, you also said that people that get permanently banned come back to the game and keep being toxic to get banned again. After all, we can't really say that it's effective because it's about players' gaming experience. You're not stopping anyone from being toxic, you're only stopping people from being toxic on that specific account. No matter what level they are at, games get ruined by toxic players.
I appreciate Riot's ways to punish people but honestly you don't do much to improve player behavior. Honor system is released lately and it's not bad but indeed it's LATE and not enough. You need to implement more features to fix players instead of just forcing them to make a new account. It can't continue like this. The best game deserves the best community but look at this... I can't ask you to just give me my account back but I'm a reasonable person and I'm pretty sure this would really help the game. So here's the final version of my suggestion. Permanently banned players should be given another chance after a certain time like 6 months. Their account will unlock automatically but they can only play a limited amount of normal games on that account and shouldn't get several reports / shouldn't receive a punishment from Tribunal or these accounts can be checked by Riot one by one if necessary since their state is critical. If they succeed, their suspension should be lifted if they keep acting nice for some time, let's say 6 months, their state in the Tribunal can eventually get resetted. If they fail the challenge, account is suspended forever.
For most people, this wouldn't even mean anything because they won't wait 6 months to be able to play again, they'll make a new account and get the same content. When old one unlocks, they probably won't even care and won't be bothered succeeding that challenge. While this encourages people to make smurf accounts, that's the way it is anyway but this suggestion offers the same with less harm. Considering there are a lot of people who spent hundreds of dollars and hours on this game, there are things that no other account can bring back which is a really sad thing for people like me. If you do this though, these people will get a new chance without hurting anyone. Seriously this system could bring no harm to anyone. It's just current temporary bans are way too short to teach people a lesson and that's why so many people get permanently banned, as if this isn't enough, permanent suspensions don't serve their purpose.
A quote from Pastoulio about this:
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Originally Posted by Pastoulio
Your comments seem to indicate that you think reform isn't possible for toxic players who have been banned. If this is your opinion, then why do you think forcing players (who wish to continue playing) to make new accounts is preferable to unbanning their old ones? This just lumps toxic players with new players, which negatively impacts the future of the game.
Bianary's thoughts, explaining why old challenge system wasn't actually a failure.
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Originally Posted by Bianary
I feel like they forgot to compare those players trying to do the reform challenge to the games they would ruin by just creating smurfs and trolling without caring about attempting to reform.
ie, they're only looking at the damage caused during the program, not the damage that continues even without it (which is likely to be approximately the same, if not even higher)
I'm saying if they have a chance to earn back their original account, people will be less likely to troll. Not that they won't troll, but that they'll be less likely to -- they want their original account back.
If they can't get their original account back at all then they have no incentive to not troll.
So with the program: Trolls, but some people who actually want their account back and will clean up.
Without the program: Trolls all the way down.
Coreffoh explains why we should have a chance to show our reform process
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Originally Posted by Coreffoh
Regardless of what "argument" you pose, the fact of the matter is: His idea is a solid one. Maybe it has kinks, and maybe it needs to be fixed a bit, but it's solid and it could work
The only reason anyone is against it is 1.) They are trolls, and trolls will always get banned. 2.) They've yet to be banned, and don't know what it's like to lose their account that they worked so hard for.
A chance to show your reform is a good idea, and it should've been implemented. I understand that after x amount of times, you get a permaban simply because you didn't reform. But, how bad your attitude really is doesn't hit home for some people until they can no longer play on that account.
I know it hit home after just a 3 day ban. I worked hard to fix my attitude, and I succeeded. But some people it doesn't sink in for a while, and they shrug it off until they find themselves with a message that says their account is suspended until the year 2216 or something.
Give them the chance to show their reform, if they fail then they fail. If they succeed, then put them on a probationary period. If they fail the probation, then their done and the case is closed. But there has to be more then 3 given chances, especially considering the amount of people who spend a good amount of money on this game.
Like I already said, Bump.
TheBarneyStinson also explains why this challenge should be brought back and kinda sums up the whole thing.
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Originally Posted by TheBarneyStinson
Let's at least agree on one point first: Permabanned players will generally come back with a new account, starting from lvl 1, sooner or later, coming back to troll and to continue being that toxic element of this game.
Now, let's say 100 people got permabanned, and they all made new accounts, started to play games again from lvl 1, trolling, being toxic and ruining the game. Result: permaban has reduced 0 amount of toxic players
Now, let's assume there were 100 people who got their second chance from Riot after getting permabanned. 5 people reformed, 95 people failed to reform and got permabanned again. Result: this second chance has reduced toxic players by 5.
Why did those 5 people improve
Because they had an incentive to stop trolling and improve their behavior. They got given a last chance to continue playing on their one and only account. To keep it to themselves from permaban. That is a strong incentive to improve their behavior alone.
Why did those 100 people fail to improve with their new lvl 1 accounts
Because they had no incentive to improve themselves. In other words, they had no reason to stop trolling. Their original account is gone, but they want to play, but it's only lvl 1, no money was spend on this account, no elo, no record, no skins. There is absolutely no reason to reform and improve their play.
The point
The second chance (rehabilitation) can slowly and step by step improve this community and successfully reduce the number of toxic players. Remember, 5 is better than none at all.
Your minority argument
So, you are saying we shouldn't care because they are gone and only represent minority? Well, let's think again.
They are not gone. They are still here with their new accounts, continuing their toxic play. Your argument and method is the same as the first method above: it has reduced the number of toxic players by 0.
This, is why the system of rehabilitation still works in real life, and should be implemented to the League as well.
You're simply forcing people to get banned and make new accounts while doing nothing to fix their behavior. A warning mail or a three days suspension don't help anything. It would only be meaningful if temporary bans were 3 months or something. Even if you don't want to give players like me another chance, consider increasing temporary bans' duration.
To sum up, I'm asking for a challenge that should be available to permabanned players after a certain amount of time like 3 or 6 months, which stands as a "last chance". Personally, I didn't expect to get permabanned after four warnings because most people I know received like 10 temporary bans. I know this isn't the way it should be but if I knew that my next suspension is going to be permanent... Hell no, I would act like a fairy. Just because it was a minority who succeeded this challenge when it was available doesn't mean it failed. Read Bianary's quote above.
There's also another reason why I made this thread, I saw this.
Pendragon unlocks a permanent suspension upon request and calls it an "experiment". If it's an experiment, I'll be your guinea pig.
Answer to Fringe.
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Originally Posted by The Fringe One
Sorry but I have played this game for 3 years and I have played with enough trolls and i know everyone else has too. People DON'T change if they were given multiple chances and continuously break the rules. Glad they finally got you out of here. Not sad you are gone and not sad you lost all your money. Should had learned your lesson on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th bans. Sorry that I don't believe you will be good "THIS" time.
If you're right and I didn't change, I will fail the challenge and won't be able to get my account back so where's the problem? Some people need time to quit their bad habits and a three day suspension doesn't really help that in any possible way. Now it's been 6 months. By the way, if there's no chance for us to reform, which is the meaning of permaban concept, why does Riot ask us to make a new account and play on it in the first place?
Answer to Klein about success rate of old system.
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Originally Posted by Dan Klein
No. They tried that, remember? The reform rate was less than 5%. So 5% of people who were banned(which by the way is a vast minority of players) is almost nobody. Effectively, all it allowed was 95% of people who were banned to continue their behavior that led to their ban.
Riot shouldn't pander the system to a vast minority of players at the expense of a vast majority of players.
5% is an utter, and total failure. If you got 5% on an exam, would that be a failure?
And again, I'm telling you that, toxic players will keep being toxic, doesn't matter what account they use to be toxic. If they fail challenge, fine, they won't get anything back. If you don't give them a challenge, they'll just make a new account to keep being toxic. On the other hand, reformed players will benefit from this system, doesn't matter what percentage it is. Saying that this system is bad because 95% of players kept ruining games is not wise, they were going to ruin games on a different account anyway, even if you didn't give them such a challenge. In the end, reformed players will benefit from this system but there's no possible harm in it.
Answer to Cujomi .
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Originally Posted by Cujomi
Realistically you shouldn't be playing at all. You created a new account and are 'allowed' to play on that one.
You were warned, then suspended, then time banned, and finally permabanned.
If I tell you not to touch something because it's hot, then yell at you, then smack your hand away until finally your burn yourself -- yes, you may have learned your lesson (maybe you didn't) but the punishment isn't going to be reverted. You learn from your mistakes and move on -- which is what you should be doing here. There is no 'I want to be rewarded for acting like I should have been acting in the first place.'
There's no reward on the table, that account is already mine and my punishment for being a ******bag is losing access to my account for 6 months which worked as intended. Permaban means "you will never learn how to act gtfo" but that doesn't apply to that %5 we were talking about. I believe I belong to that 5% and I want to prove it.
Answer to Dominatius Maxim about the temporary ban durations.
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Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim
The flaw in your argument is that Riot already released the statistic that most people reform after the first warning or 1 day ban and never reach the Tribunal again. Why should those people have to suffer a one month ban when one day was enough to reform them?
I repeat
Warning / 3 / 14 / 30 / 90
If most players reform after first or second warning, they don't have to deal with longer suspensions, where's the problem? 30 days ban means FOURTH warning, not first or second. So it's better for the people who don't learn their lesson with short bans.
With exactly your logic, I'll ask you.
Why should I suffer 220 years when 3 months ban could be enough to reform me?
We need a balance in between ban durations.
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Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim
And the people who would reform at the third warning? Fourth? Why should they need to endure 30 days? 90 days?
Because you stated it yourself, most people change their behavior after first or second warning. So, this would only affect the minority anyway. People that refuse to change their behavior will eventually end up getting permabanned and I'm pretty sure most people who ignored first 2 warnings also ignore next warnings simply because the difference between temporary suspensions is so little at the moment. 90 days suspension means fifth warning according to my suggestion. So you believe that people can reform after their fifth warning but you don't believe that we can? That's ironic. This could change with this modification though. If a player is too dumb to take a 3 days ban serious, why would he take a 14 days one serious? There's almost no difference between 3 days and 2 weeks suspensions if you compare them to my suggested ones. Such people exist, I used to be one of them, I know how it feels. Duration of ban is really important under this context.
The Best Answer sharing my thoughts and explaining the situation, more detailed.
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Originally Posted by The Best Answer
Firstly, I am so glad to see that, for once, a thread of this kind (regarding permaban issues) is receiving constructive feedbacks from players who have actually read the OP and are giving their opinions without so much ignorant (and often harsh) comments.
I have bumped this thread because I share the view of the OP, as much as I understand the other people's view, that one final second chance should be given.
It is true, that in real life, even the most beastly criminals (such as murderers) are given their second chance. The point of the system is to allow that slim chance of rehabilitation, a second go at life. And yes, as worrying as it may sound, our legal system is running that risk of giving those criminals that second chance, at the risk of the general public. What is the success rate? Very low. But the reasoning behind this system is that: 1) people in this world are not that merciless and 2) those criminals DO learn their lessons from the punishments, 3) our system believe in that slim chance and hope of making the world a better place by rehabilitating those people. And the reason those criminals do change and become better people are, in essence, twofold. One, because they value their freedom. Imprisonment means that freedom is taken, and having been in that situation, they have realised the importance of that freedom. Now that gives them a strong incentive to rehabilitate and become better members of the society. Two, because they feel true remorse for what they have done. This occurs less frequently in truth, but we hear quite frequently than not the stories of ex-convicts repenting their sins.
Anyway, I'm not saying League of Legends is something comparable to this extreme real life example, but merely putting it into context, it seems quite harsh for those permabanned players that the current system offers absolutely no ways to rehabilitate themselves. League of Legends is a game and people have argued that it's inappropriate to apply this real life example, but let's not forget, gaming is also a part of real life. Yes, League of Legends is also a part of real life. And in a grander scheme of things, it seems that the current permanent ban system is somewhat too harsh compared to how real crimes are treated in real life.
Moreover, the comparison can be made clearer by looking at certain aspects of this:
1) In real life, people have right to do whatever they want, and this is called freedom. But we are only punished when our exercise of freedom negatively affects the freedom of others. This is why murder is punished in real life. One may say he has freedom to kill others, and he may say he is only exercising his freedom. But as we observed, murderers are punished in this world because that murderer's exercise of his freedom has negatively affected the freedom of others. In other words, that murderer has taken away the victim's freedom to live his life.
2) Same is considered in League of Legends. Players have freedom to do whatever they want during their games, so long as it doesn't negatively affect the gaming experience of other players. Once a player breaches that boundary, he deserves his punishment, because he has failed to respect the freedom of other players. The freedom of other players to enjoy their game. And the similar example applies to other smaller real life examples; you shouldn't steal another's car because that deprives the other person's freedom to drive his car; you shouldn't go over your speed limit when driving because it takes away the freedom of other drivers on the road to drive in safety; you shouldn't steal another's cake, because it deprives the other's freedom to enjoy his cake.
Now, let's consider the current permaban system. For the purposes of comparison, we will consider this freedom to our accounts. Because our freedom to play this game is supposed to depend on the availability of our accounts. In other words, everyone who play this game must have an account to play this game. So, when a player flames and ruins the gaming experience of others, he should get punished, in other words, his freedom should be taken away from him, in the form of suspension or a perma ban.
The question is, do suspensions and permabans really take away that freedom? The answer is a clear NO. Because that player can create another account and continue to play this game.
We have seen from a number of Riot posts over the years that the purpose of permaban is to discourage that player from playing this game. But the current permaban system is not achieving that aim at all; in fact, it encourages them to create another account or illegally purchase a lvl 30 account and continue being toxic in the games. In other words, the current permaban system does not resolve the toxicity in this game.
So what next? Well, we already have a good answer to that in real life: Rehabilitation. So now let's look at the current rehabilitation system for those perma banned players. Except... there isn't one.
What about those suspensions? You have had your chances to reform, but you haven't. Well, it's true in many aspects, but you have to closely consider the duration of suspensions.
Let's assume that you got imprisoned for 3 days for drug trafficking, do you really think, people in real life change from those three days in prison? No. Second offence. You are imprisoned for 2 weeks. Really, that isn't going to change you either. But let's assume, after those suspensions, you are imprisoned for life. Are you likely to change? Well, I think the majority of people would.
Now, let's juxtapose that scenario to League of Legends. You are suspended for 3 days for bad behaviour. Some people change (especially those who play this game every day), but you have to look at this in perspectives. Some people play this game on weekly basis, some even on monthly basis. What has this 3 day ban done to these people? Absolutely nothing. And the OP is right when he says the suspension has to be longer to be effective.
The problem is that after those short suspensions, it jumps straight into permanent ban. For some this is justifiable, because you've had your chances, but for those who have work or those who have other things to do, these suspensions meant nothing. In other words, no real sense of warning was given. 3 days? I would just go and play Diablo for 3 days. 2 weeks? I'll take a holiday and go somewhere, maybe play other games, explore other hobbies, might take a 3 week off and come back to the League. What have those suspensions achieved for those people? Nothing.
The point is this: the current suspension lengths are way too lenient, while the impact of permanent ban if extremely harsh, especially for those who are either foolish or not affected by those short suspensions. And this is especially problematic because there are no ways for them to rehabilitate themselves right now, while most of them got their permaban without getting 1) a sense of warning and 2) simply because of their style of life.
I bumped the OP's post because his solution offers a good solution to these problems. One, it increases the length of suspensions so it can really give a sense of warning to all types of players. 3 month - 6 month ban is obviously huge compared 3 day, 2 week bans. Two, it gives the perma banned players that last chance to rehabilitate. Remember, they have have incentive to change: 1) either they now value their freedom (having been imprisoned/ perma banned) and 2) they now are truly remorseful for their behaviour.
On one condition though: this is their last chance and if they blow it, this time, it's gone for good. Just as in real life, if you break the parole condition, you're never gonna leave the prison again. Everyone gets their second chance and I think it should be the same for the League.
Bump.
Something like a TL;DR including nennx and Wayward Sword's opinions.
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Originally Posted by nennx
A "permaban" would still be a long term ban and when you got your account back you would be in a position to lose your account at ease. Like the original poster said, problem players will continue to be a problem regardless of which account they're playing on. Reformed players will be reformed and shouldn't have to put in hundreds of hours just to be able to play the real game again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayward Sword
I'll support this just on the fact that even if its just a minuscule improvement, its still better than the current system we have. Its just so simple to turn around and create a new account, which actually gives a person less incentive to behave because the account will be mostly worthless.
The addition of an incentive for players to reform after their perm ban is great. I'd also support longer suspension times leading up to a perm ban. What is it? 2 weeks max before perm ban? 2 weeks is nothing.
Finally, my TL;DR part while answering DebosBike's concerns.
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Originally Posted by DebosBike
The challenge was removed because virtually no one ever passed it and got their account back anyways. It just encouraged toxic players to make more new accounts and drove away countless new players who's first experience with the game went terribly from those people harassing them.
These people always want "just one more chance" and then they repeat their behavior and still want "just one more" after that.
They had 5-10 chances already with the punishment escalating each time.. At a certain point it becomes apparent that they just don't get it or don't care to get with the program.
A large body of players already don't even take the tribunal seriously and this would make it worse. There is a cut off where the ban becomes permanent, and if someone crossed that barrier already giving them another chance tends to do little more then improve their behavior for a week tops and then they revert and need "just one more chance" again..
1. This challenge will be available once in a lifetime for all permabanned accounts, nobody will be able to ask for another "challenge". Even if you succeed, your account will remain in the "next offense is permaban" state. I hope this clears your concerns such as "You'll just act nice until you finish that challenge and keep acting like a scum later on". This can't happen.
2. It won't be on a new level 1 account so that new players won't be affected from this challenge like they did in the past. It will be on the banned account but the banned person won't be able to join any kind of ranked queue, even team.
3. Toxic players are going to be toxic anyway, with or without this challenge, in the end this challenge doesn't really have a downside. There's no way to stop trolls, this challenge can't cause direct damage to the game. 95% of players might have failed the old challenge but that doesn't mean this challenge breeds toxicity, it only makes the existing toxicity apparent. On the other hand, 5% of the permabanned succeeded that challenge, which is better than nothing in terms of rehabilitation.
4. You won't be able to join this program right after you receive a permanent suspension. First there's a long term ban which I thought of 3 or 6 months. So people will think twice before thinking "I'll get it unbanned anyway". For balance purposes, existing temporary bans should also be modified into warning / 3 / 14 / 30 / 90 from warning / 1 / 3 / 7 / 14. The reason why this system would be better than the existing one is explained above in Dominatius Maxim's quote.
Those users probably kept their negative behavior and ruined low level games, thus you decided that the feature wasn't effective enough to be kept.
The level 20 challenge had a roughly 95% failure rate. It was also ONLY offered to people who appeared to be genuine in their desire to reform, and people who could demonstrate that they know what they did wrong.
Quote:
my suggestion was to unlock those banned accounts for a limited amount of normal games so that low level players' gaming experience won't be ruined and banned players
You already have a last chance. It's after the two week ban. You're sent an email that says if you keep behaving the same way suspensions will be permanent. Players who are at the permanent ban stage are very unlikely to reform (<5%) given ANY number of chances so simply temporarily unbanning their account just means they'll be ruining games at their own level instead of low level games. I don't believe this is a suitable option.
Quote:
While you disagree with me on the issue that permanent suspensions are ineffective, you also said that people that get permanently banned come back to the game and keep being toxic to get banned again. After all, we can't really say that it's effective because it's about players' gaming experience. You're not stopping anyone from being toxic, you're only stopping people from being toxic on that specific account. No matter what level they are at, games get ruined by toxic players.
It's important for us when we make decisions that we're making decisions that are great for the millions of players who we're trying to create a gaming experience for. When we permanently ban someone our desire is that they no longer continue to play League of Legends as these are not players that we want to have these strong relationships with, and not the players who contribute positively to the League of Legends community. Any decision we make about a permanently banned player is not about being nice, or providing a great service, or being fair - it's about doing everything we possibly can to get that person to leave while still being as respectful as possible. If there was easy technology to do so - we would much rather ban a person rather than just an account, but in the meantime we'll take anything we can that will incent someone to choose other gaming options. We're also considering a variety of options to address this long term. Lots of permanently banned players actually quit.
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You need to implement more features to fix players instead of just forcing them to make a new account. It can't continue like this.
We don't want you to make a new account, and we don't want to devote a ton of resources to people who have been given 9 chances already. Additionally - there's no reason for us to prioritize features that impact a tiny percentage of players who we've ultimately decided we don't want around. I'd much rather invest resources in making the experience better for the people who aren't getting banned.
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Permanently banned players should be given another chance after a certain time like 6 months. Their account will unlock automatically but they can only play a limited amount of normal games on that account and shouldn't get several reports / shouldn't receive a punishment from Tribunal or these accounts can be checked by Riot one by one if necessary since their state is critical.
I would prefer if after 6 months permanently banned players have new things to occupy their time. I believe that there are some exceptions to the rule, but most permanently banned players end up quitting.
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Pendragon unlocks a permanent suspension upon request and calls it an "experiment". If it's an experiment, I'll be your guinea pig.
This experiment was ultimately a failure. The player has appeared again in the Tribunal and has been permanently banned again.
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If you're right and I didn't change, I will fail the challenge and won't be able to get my account back so where's the problem? Some people need time to quit their bad habits and a three day suspension doesn't really help that in any possible way. Now it's been 6 months. By the way, if there's no chance for us to reform, which is the meaning of permaban concept, why does Riot ask us to make a new account and play on it in the first place?
Permanently banned players have had 6, 7, 8, 9 opportunities to change their behavior. You don't need more. I don't want you to make a new account, and I don't want you to keep playing.
Edit: Also - I don't mean for this to sound so harsh, but it's kind of like ending a relationship where one person just doesn't get it...
Hey man - I'm going to tell it like it is. I live my life trying to make things better for our players every minute of every day. The guy who gets banned 9 times because of racism/homophobia, or the guy who has to resort to insulting his teammates for every mistake is not our player. They may play the game, they may have a League of Legends account, but when we're deciding where we should dedicate our effort or what we should prioritize or how we continue to surprise and delight millions of players - we're not talking about those people
I'm going to be respectful as I can but I have to be direct.
Pendragon, riot has been corrupted for quite a while and you stating those things just proves how immoral your team is. You don't know jack if you think you are to decide who play and who can't play. Nothing will keep trolls from trolling, and it is a waste of time for the good of the most desirable players that actually have reformed to act like this. You didn't give chances, you didn't give warnings. Your " ****ty" tribunal even BANS people BASED ON BOT GAMES. I mean come on, get some actual sources and try your best to argumentize yourself, OR improve your company and your team and actually do something about this. You perm ban people, you're doing it wrong. Fix it and stop making excuses.
I respect your right to be angry.
It's literally impossible for us to make everyone happy since things that make some players happy will make other players upset. That means we have to choose to prioritize some players over other players. I will always choose friendly, helpful, sportsmanlike, welcoming players over destructive and insulting ones.
I tried to explain why 95% failure rate isn't actually a failure. You need to approach it like "We have reformed 5% of our players" because this is an advantage this system brings while it doesn't have any downside. You're approaching the situation backwards. This isn't a loss or failure.
Reforming 5% of the worst ~1-2% of players at the cost of them ruining the experience for others, (who frequently end up quitting) is absolutely a failure. A 3000-game perma-banned players may have been reported in 500-600 games, (or more in extreme cases) and interacted with 20,000+ people. How many players do you think we lose keeping that person around? I promise you it's more than getting rid of them.
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The reason why I suggested that challenge to be on that banned account is to prevent low level games from getting ruined since low level players' gaming experience is more important, at least that's what I think.
Low level players experience is not more important to us than our loyal players who have shown a lot of dedication to us and to the game whose games are being ruined by players who should be permanently banned.
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Personally, I had four temporary bans as I emphasized, which isn't even close to 9 like you said. You say you don't want permabanned players to play our game but not all support members think the same way, since some of them told me to make a new account and move on, I was referring to it.
Our support team's standard protocol is to not encourage anyone to make a new account or continue to play. I will forward this thread to our player support team who will hopefully re-educate those specialists.
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Just because that experiment was an ultimate failure doesn't mean that every player is going to be like that. This isn't a lose-lose or win-lose situation. It's a win-neutral situation. Win for reformed players, neutral for toxic ones since they'd be toxic on another account if you didn't give them the challenge anyway.
And a lose for everyone who has to play with those toxic players who aren't reforming. Those are the ones I really care about.
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You pretty much stated the same things with most people who disagreed with me on this thread and I think there are answers in my first post. Since you think that I've received 9 warnings I can see that you haven't read the full text. When you have time, please read it.
I haven't read the full details of your specific case - I'm speaking purely at a high level about what's normal for a permanently banned player. We are actively working on identifying ways we can show players the exit sooner who are not reforming.
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People who are perma banned you said 6 7 or 8 times. Is this true? Is an account REALLY time banned for at least 1 day at least 5 times before the perma ban? If this is honestly true. I will no longer disagree with the tribunal. I was under the impression it was basically 3 time bans goodbye your gone forever on that account.
It's possible in theory for someone to get a warning, followed by a 3, 7, 14, and perma-ban (1 warning, 3-time bans, and a permaban). That's a VERY extreme case. More typically you more time bans than that as someone might break their habit or behavior for a huge streak of games and drop to a lower ban level.
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Dude, if I troll again I'll just get permabanned again in no time, I don't get your point. How could that hurt you?
The problem is at this point I know you have a history of ruining games. I know that statistically speaking you're likely to continue to ruin games, even if you appear to be genuine about your desire to reform. If I were to unban you then every single game you ruin from that point out is no longer just your fault - now it's my fault. I knew you were likely to ruin games and I allow you to do so anyway.
I don't just have a desire to do everything that's reasonable to prevent permanently banned people from continuing to play - I have a RESPONSIBILITY to do everything I can.
I wasn't expecting Pendragon to just come and unlock my account anyway and his statements aren't different from those people already asked in earlier 100 pages, I made this thread to change his opinions, not to simply earn my account back. If it takes hard work, I'll be at it.
To get me to change my mind you have to understand that it's not about you. Your suspension isn't about you, my replies to this thread aren't about you.
It's about the people that you impact. I care deeply about those people and their experiences. If you want to change my mind - you have to convince me that giving you a second chance is good for them, not good for you.
In addition to that - it really isn't up to me. Our support team makes these decisions. I'm just letting you know in general how we think about these types of problems.
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Not that this post has a chance to be seen anyway, but would love to see why my main pronomore was banned.
I made a post on the forums and got banned because of that, was never warned/suspended once in 9 months before that. Don't really see that perma ban worthy =/
I was wondering if such things could work with the Tribunal-- users who have appeared can in theory appear fifteen times, but if there is an EXTREMELY long gap between each appearance (say, once every season), those instances are removed since he has shown behavioral improvement and is only having small bouts of relapsing.
The Tribunal already functions like this. If you show improvement over time your discipline level decreases. Permabans do not disappear though.
Some of your points are undeniable and I understand. Still, don't you think that some of banned players can actually reform? Your final sentence has a little bit "prejudice" towards these people. It's not like I got banned yesterday, it's been 6 months and it's really sad to see that everyone thinks we're going to stay toxic forever, even you, statistically speaking. Do you have any other idea in your mind other than this challenge that could reform those players or at least earn back the ones that have already reformed their behavior?
Of course I do. And if we could easily find a way to identify which 5% could end up performing (or even if we could identify people with a 50% chance of reforming then perhaps it might be worth investing more effort in. Right now though there's a 5% chance of reform (low reward) and a 95% chance of these people ruining more games (high risk).
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I also want to ask something else, you let SgtMcLovin keep playing on his account. Why did you choose him? Isn't it unfair that I can't get the same treatment? You don't like experiments anymore?
He seemed incredibly genuine, admitted fault, understood what he did wrong. Even knowing all of that he was not able to change.
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One last question; Is there a way for me to know if I have appeared in Tribunal without actually receiving the punishment? I'm honestly curious if I am considered a 'toxic' player or not.
Sorry we don't really tell people. I think if we started to tell people I'd spend all day answering that question.
Possible solution: After a player's account reaches level 30 they have a month to appeal to un-ban a permanently banned account. Then, if they are found to have a decent attitude towards the game, they will get their accounts merged, however if they have been found not to have a decent attitude (ie they have been banned on their new account etc) then their new account will be permanently banned as well.
Again - we don't want to do anything to encourage banned players to keep playing.
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Hey Pendragon, while you're here, why is Bazner on the Riot stickies at the top of the page now? Just curious.
The community team was cleaning up some stickies. Mine were old
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Meanwhile tribunal bans lowbies for feeding in bot and aram games. Working as intented, huh Pendragon?
Please provide more color for comment. I don't know what specifically you're talking about.
The Tribunal isn't perfect, (nor are any of the alternatives), but it's been very effective so far. We're always open to completely scrapping it and starting anew if there's a substantially more attractive alternative you have in mind.
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I don't have permission to view the page >< but if that is the post that I created that got me banned, I tried making a post explaining why I made it. The TL;DR of it was that college got me incredibly stressed out and I needed to release some stress. Obviously I did it in the worst possible way.
Contents of the post
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Been playing lol for about a year now without ever getting suspended/banned, and have gotten plat. Getting really bored of this game so going to keep trolling until something happens.
So how many games do you think it'll take?
2?
5?
10?
20?
We'll see!
Game 1 ganked and died twice and made sure to insult team a sufficient amount and left
Game 2 Ganked for mid once died yelled at him for a good ~4min while afk at fountain then left
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How many emails/forum posts a day do you read about this ****? Childish people that were give more than plenty of chances to change and dont then get slapped with their well deserved ban and them come crying to you like they are the victim.
Lots . I'm always happy to try to shed some insight onto why we make decisions though. In my mind - if we can't reasonably justify a decision we make and have a lot of players (even if it's not all) agree with our rationalte, we have to seriously evaluate a decision that we made.
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fyi pendadragon, after my 2 week ban i never received any sort of email saying my next ban will be permanent. this is what ive been trying to stress in all of my tickets and i nthis thread. i was never told i would get permabanned and didnt even know it existed.
Every time we issue a timeban we send an email to the registered account. The Email states that continued behavior may result in a permanent ban.
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I'm willing to bet that Riot has permabanned more people than clients you claim to lose due to such negative experiences.
I'd happily take the odds on that. Mostly because we have a ton of data that we use to make these decisions.
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This has dire implications for the game's longevity.
The vast majority of people come to League of Legends through a friend. Making the experience great for our existing players will get us new players. It's science, man.
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Reformation is not achieved through a system that only punishes. The hand that only slaps, cannot guide.
Most people who run through the Tribunal reform. Some end up permabanned. We will do things to try to make more people reformed and less people permabanned but overall I'd rather spend more time doing things for the vast majority of players who never see the Tribunal.
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Reformation is not achieved through a system that only punishes. The hand that only slaps, cannot guide.
That's not completely true. A punishment-only system is not as powerful as it could be if it had both carrot and stick, but that doesn't mean it achieves no level of effectiveness.
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After six months of careful behavior since my 1-week ban, I had a tough week where my car was stolen and said some careless things in game chat. This is not an excuse, I'm just giving you context. As a result, I was banned for two weeks. Where is the "lower ban level" you're talking about?
Your one-week ban and two-week ban were 9 weeks apart, not 6 months apart. You've also been punished by the Tribunal 6 times total so far. Since there are only 4 ban-levels, if your previous bans did not decay you would be permabanned right now.
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Guess what? He'll just make a new account and continue to play. Hey, as long as your hands are clean, what does it matter? I mean its good that you have a tough attitude about this stuff, I respect that; but you should also have plans for how to improve the situation, because being so "laissez faire" about it typically doesn't have a good track record, coming from other games.
That's unfortunate. I'd rather he not - many permabanned players don't. We're working on addressing this long-term, but there are lots of other things we have to work on too.
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Do you really believe that new players aren't as important as old, loyal players? In September I made a smurf account just to see how the behavior has changed from when I joined in March of 2011. Pretty much the game is won based on how many smurfs are on each team, since new players have absolutely no idea what they are doing or how to take objectives. I try to help the new players, such as telling them how to level up spells and buy items. Then there are other smurfs that play to win, and they just don't seem to understand that new players can be as inexperieced as they are, so these smurfs are constantly raging all game. One even openly stated that they rage quitted a ranked game, and then made a new account and started playing another game.
I think it's an incredibly difficult question to answer. I don't think new players aren't important, and I think what you're doing is probably helpful. There's a lot we can do to enhance the new-player experience if we want to make it a priority, but it's a tough balancing act.
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Since being told exactly what I was doing wrong after a long fight in my last ban, I haven't been banned in 8 months (yay!). However, in recent days I've been told repeatedly, although I'm not doing anything particularly wrong (people telling me in fits of rage while losing games I suppose) that I'm going to be reported.
I can't give away the secret sauce of how to decay stuff works, but there's definitely decay.
Petition to bring back the challenge regarding removal of bans
I've tried my luck several times on EU forums for my ideas but sadly, got no attention from Rioters other than Ymir and he isn't really helpful. I have had a long conversation with Sresian on a ticket which I'll mention below, he found my suggestions good and told me to try forums if I really want to see them implemented. That's why I'm here.
Firstly, if you don't know the challenge I'm talking about... There used to be a challenge offered by Riot to permabanned players to get their account back. To succeed, suspended player should make a new account and get it to level 20 without getting several reports. Proof, edit 2 part.
http://reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/...d_it_is_scary/
This challenge is removed 8 months ago because Riot thought it wasn't effective enough and it breeds toxicity in low level games problem. Direct quote from Sresian
Please understand that I am being honest and have been since the start of this ticket. We simply do not have anything to offer you to get your account back. We have a challenge we could offer months ago, but we stopped doing that for multiple reasons and at this time we do not offer any way to gain an account back after a permanent suspension. So while I understand your frustration and wanting your account back, we simply cannot do anything for you at this time. This may change again in the future, but I do not have any information on when, if at all, that might happen. I do apologize.
My response
I understand. I can guess the reasons you're talking about. Those users probably kept their negative behavior and ruined low level games, thus you decided that the feature wasn't effective enough to be kept. I had a thread on forums related to this issue, my suggestion was to unlock those banned accounts for a limited amount of normal games so that low level players' gaming experience won't be ruined and banned players' progress will be easier to observe since they won't use a different account. Maybe you can consider this in the future. I'm sure when people play on their own account instead of a low level one they'll be more careful about their actions, at least they should be.
His response to this
I'm so glad to hear that I am able to be helpful to you. There were multiple reasons why we removed it, but you have a good suggestion and I would suggest to continue to post about it on the forums. The more feedback you gather, the better the idea will become and the more likely it is that we can look at it as something to implement.
My final response which nobody answered.
While you disagree with me on the issue that permanent suspensions are ineffective, you also said that people that get permanently banned come back to the game and keep being toxic to get banned again. After all, we can't really say that it's effective because it's about players' gaming experience. You're not stopping anyone from being toxic, you're only stopping people from being toxic on that specific account. No matter what level they are at, games get ruined by toxic players.
I appreciate Riot's ways to punish people but honestly you don't do much to improve player behavior. Honor system is released lately and it's not bad but indeed it's LATE and not enough. You need to implement more features to fix players instead of just forcing them to make a new account. It can't continue like this. The best game deserves the best community but look at this... I can't ask you to just give me my account back but I'm a reasonable person and I'm pretty sure this would really help the game. So here's the final version of my suggestion. Permanently banned players should be given another chance after a certain time like 6 months. Their account will unlock automatically but they can only play a limited amount of normal games on that account and shouldn't get several reports / shouldn't receive a punishment from Tribunal or these accounts can be checked by Riot one by one if necessary since their state is critical. If they succeed, their suspension should be lifted if they keep acting nice for some time, let's say 6 months, their state in the Tribunal can eventually get resetted. If they fail the challenge, account is suspended forever.
For most people, this wouldn't even mean anything because they won't wait 6 months to be able to play again, they'll make a new account and get the same content. When old one unlocks, they probably won't even care and won't be bothered succeeding that challenge. While this encourages people to make smurf accounts, that's the way it is anyway but this suggestion offers the same with less harm. Considering there are a lot of people who spent hundreds of dollars and hours on this game, there are things that no other account can bring back which is a really sad thing for people like me. If you do this though, these people will get a new chance without hurting anyone. Seriously this system could bring no harm to anyone. It's just current temporary bans are way too short to teach people a lesson and that's why so many people get permanently banned, as if this isn't enough, permanent suspensions don't serve their purpose.
A quote from Pastoulio about this:
Bianary's thoughts, explaining why old challenge system wasn't actually a failure.
ie, they're only looking at the damage caused during the program, not the damage that continues even without it (which is likely to be approximately the same, if not even higher)
I'm saying if they have a chance to earn back their original account, people will be less likely to troll. Not that they won't troll, but that they'll be less likely to -- they want their original account back.
If they can't get their original account back at all then they have no incentive to not troll.
So with the program: Trolls, but some people who actually want their account back and will clean up.
Without the program: Trolls all the way down.
Coreffoh explains why we should have a chance to show our reform process
The only reason anyone is against it is 1.) They are trolls, and trolls will always get banned. 2.) They've yet to be banned, and don't know what it's like to lose their account that they worked so hard for.
A chance to show your reform is a good idea, and it should've been implemented. I understand that after x amount of times, you get a permaban simply because you didn't reform. But, how bad your attitude really is doesn't hit home for some people until they can no longer play on that account.
I know it hit home after just a 3 day ban. I worked hard to fix my attitude, and I succeeded. But some people it doesn't sink in for a while, and they shrug it off until they find themselves with a message that says their account is suspended until the year 2216 or something.
Give them the chance to show their reform, if they fail then they fail. If they succeed, then put them on a probationary period. If they fail the probation, then their done and the case is closed. But there has to be more then 3 given chances, especially considering the amount of people who spend a good amount of money on this game.
Like I already said, Bump.
TheBarneyStinson also explains why this challenge should be brought back and kinda sums up the whole thing.
Now, let's say 100 people got permabanned, and they all made new accounts, started to play games again from lvl 1, trolling, being toxic and ruining the game. Result: permaban has reduced 0 amount of toxic players
Now, let's assume there were 100 people who got their second chance from Riot after getting permabanned. 5 people reformed, 95 people failed to reform and got permabanned again. Result: this second chance has reduced toxic players by 5.
Why did those 5 people improve
Because they had an incentive to stop trolling and improve their behavior. They got given a last chance to continue playing on their one and only account. To keep it to themselves from permaban. That is a strong incentive to improve their behavior alone.
Why did those 100 people fail to improve with their new lvl 1 accounts
Because they had no incentive to improve themselves. In other words, they had no reason to stop trolling. Their original account is gone, but they want to play, but it's only lvl 1, no money was spend on this account, no elo, no record, no skins. There is absolutely no reason to reform and improve their play.
The point
The second chance (rehabilitation) can slowly and step by step improve this community and successfully reduce the number of toxic players. Remember, 5 is better than none at all.
Your minority argument
So, you are saying we shouldn't care because they are gone and only represent minority? Well, let's think again.
They are not gone. They are still here with their new accounts, continuing their toxic play. Your argument and method is the same as the first method above: it has reduced the number of toxic players by 0.
This, is why the system of rehabilitation still works in real life, and should be implemented to the League as well.
You're simply forcing people to get banned and make new accounts while doing nothing to fix their behavior. A warning mail or a three days suspension don't help anything. It would only be meaningful if temporary bans were 3 months or something. Even if you don't want to give players like me another chance, consider increasing temporary bans' duration.
To sum up, I'm asking for a challenge that should be available to permabanned players after a certain amount of time like 3 or 6 months, which stands as a "last chance". Personally, I didn't expect to get permabanned after four warnings because most people I know received like 10 temporary bans. I know this isn't the way it should be but if I knew that my next suspension is going to be permanent... Hell no, I would act like a fairy. Just because it was a minority who succeeded this challenge when it was available doesn't mean it failed. Read Bianary's quote above.
There's also another reason why I made this thread, I saw this.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...25231#24125231
Pendragon unlocks a permanent suspension upon request and calls it an "experiment". If it's an experiment, I'll be your guinea pig.
Answer to Fringe.
Answer to Klein about success rate of old system.
Riot shouldn't pander the system to a vast minority of players at the expense of a vast majority of players.
5% is an utter, and total failure. If you got 5% on an exam, would that be a failure?
Answer to Cujomi .
You were warned, then suspended, then time banned, and finally permabanned.
If I tell you not to touch something because it's hot, then yell at you, then smack your hand away until finally your burn yourself -- yes, you may have learned your lesson (maybe you didn't) but the punishment isn't going to be reverted. You learn from your mistakes and move on -- which is what you should be doing here. There is no 'I want to be rewarded for acting like I should have been acting in the first place.'
Answer to Dominatius Maxim about the temporary ban durations.
Warning / 3 / 14 / 30 / 90
If most players reform after first or second warning, they don't have to deal with longer suspensions, where's the problem? 30 days ban means FOURTH warning, not first or second. So it's better for the people who don't learn their lesson with short bans.
With exactly your logic, I'll ask you.
Why should I suffer 220 years when 3 months ban could be enough to reform me?
We need a balance in between ban durations.
The Best Answer sharing my thoughts and explaining the situation, more detailed.
I have bumped this thread because I share the view of the OP, as much as I understand the other people's view, that one final second chance should be given.
It is true, that in real life, even the most beastly criminals (such as murderers) are given their second chance. The point of the system is to allow that slim chance of rehabilitation, a second go at life. And yes, as worrying as it may sound, our legal system is running that risk of giving those criminals that second chance, at the risk of the general public. What is the success rate? Very low. But the reasoning behind this system is that: 1) people in this world are not that merciless and 2) those criminals DO learn their lessons from the punishments, 3) our system believe in that slim chance and hope of making the world a better place by rehabilitating those people. And the reason those criminals do change and become better people are, in essence, twofold. One, because they value their freedom. Imprisonment means that freedom is taken, and having been in that situation, they have realised the importance of that freedom. Now that gives them a strong incentive to rehabilitate and become better members of the society. Two, because they feel true remorse for what they have done. This occurs less frequently in truth, but we hear quite frequently than not the stories of ex-convicts repenting their sins.
Anyway, I'm not saying League of Legends is something comparable to this extreme real life example, but merely putting it into context, it seems quite harsh for those permabanned players that the current system offers absolutely no ways to rehabilitate themselves. League of Legends is a game and people have argued that it's inappropriate to apply this real life example, but let's not forget, gaming is also a part of real life. Yes, League of Legends is also a part of real life. And in a grander scheme of things, it seems that the current permanent ban system is somewhat too harsh compared to how real crimes are treated in real life.
Moreover, the comparison can be made clearer by looking at certain aspects of this:
1) In real life, people have right to do whatever they want, and this is called freedom. But we are only punished when our exercise of freedom negatively affects the freedom of others. This is why murder is punished in real life. One may say he has freedom to kill others, and he may say he is only exercising his freedom. But as we observed, murderers are punished in this world because that murderer's exercise of his freedom has negatively affected the freedom of others. In other words, that murderer has taken away the victim's freedom to live his life.
2) Same is considered in League of Legends. Players have freedom to do whatever they want during their games, so long as it doesn't negatively affect the gaming experience of other players. Once a player breaches that boundary, he deserves his punishment, because he has failed to respect the freedom of other players. The freedom of other players to enjoy their game. And the similar example applies to other smaller real life examples; you shouldn't steal another's car because that deprives the other person's freedom to drive his car; you shouldn't go over your speed limit when driving because it takes away the freedom of other drivers on the road to drive in safety; you shouldn't steal another's cake, because it deprives the other's freedom to enjoy his cake.
Now, let's consider the current permaban system. For the purposes of comparison, we will consider this freedom to our accounts. Because our freedom to play this game is supposed to depend on the availability of our accounts. In other words, everyone who play this game must have an account to play this game. So, when a player flames and ruins the gaming experience of others, he should get punished, in other words, his freedom should be taken away from him, in the form of suspension or a perma ban.
The question is, do suspensions and permabans really take away that freedom? The answer is a clear NO. Because that player can create another account and continue to play this game.
We have seen from a number of Riot posts over the years that the purpose of permaban is to discourage that player from playing this game. But the current permaban system is not achieving that aim at all; in fact, it encourages them to create another account or illegally purchase a lvl 30 account and continue being toxic in the games. In other words, the current permaban system does not resolve the toxicity in this game.
So what next? Well, we already have a good answer to that in real life: Rehabilitation. So now let's look at the current rehabilitation system for those perma banned players. Except... there isn't one.
What about those suspensions? You have had your chances to reform, but you haven't. Well, it's true in many aspects, but you have to closely consider the duration of suspensions.
Let's assume that you got imprisoned for 3 days for drug trafficking, do you really think, people in real life change from those three days in prison? No. Second offence. You are imprisoned for 2 weeks. Really, that isn't going to change you either. But let's assume, after those suspensions, you are imprisoned for life. Are you likely to change? Well, I think the majority of people would.
Now, let's juxtapose that scenario to League of Legends. You are suspended for 3 days for bad behaviour. Some people change (especially those who play this game every day), but you have to look at this in perspectives. Some people play this game on weekly basis, some even on monthly basis. What has this 3 day ban done to these people? Absolutely nothing. And the OP is right when he says the suspension has to be longer to be effective.
The problem is that after those short suspensions, it jumps straight into permanent ban. For some this is justifiable, because you've had your chances, but for those who have work or those who have other things to do, these suspensions meant nothing. In other words, no real sense of warning was given. 3 days? I would just go and play Diablo for 3 days. 2 weeks? I'll take a holiday and go somewhere, maybe play other games, explore other hobbies, might take a 3 week off and come back to the League. What have those suspensions achieved for those people? Nothing.
The point is this: the current suspension lengths are way too lenient, while the impact of permanent ban if extremely harsh, especially for those who are either foolish or not affected by those short suspensions. And this is especially problematic because there are no ways for them to rehabilitate themselves right now, while most of them got their permaban without getting 1) a sense of warning and 2) simply because of their style of life.
I bumped the OP's post because his solution offers a good solution to these problems. One, it increases the length of suspensions so it can really give a sense of warning to all types of players. 3 month - 6 month ban is obviously huge compared 3 day, 2 week bans. Two, it gives the perma banned players that last chance to rehabilitate. Remember, they have have incentive to change: 1) either they now value their freedom (having been imprisoned/ perma banned) and 2) they now are truly remorseful for their behaviour.
On one condition though: this is their last chance and if they blow it, this time, it's gone for good. Just as in real life, if you break the parole condition, you're never gonna leave the prison again. Everyone gets their second chance and I think it should be the same for the League.
Bump.
Something like a TL;DR including nennx and Wayward Sword's opinions.
The addition of an incentive for players to reform after their perm ban is great. I'd also support longer suspension times leading up to a perm ban. What is it? 2 weeks max before perm ban? 2 weeks is nothing.
These people always want "just one more chance" and then they repeat their behavior and still want "just one more" after that.
They had 5-10 chances already with the punishment escalating each time.. At a certain point it becomes apparent that they just don't get it or don't care to get with the program.
A large body of players already don't even take the tribunal seriously and this would make it worse. There is a cut off where the ban becomes permanent, and if someone crossed that barrier already giving them another chance tends to do little more then improve their behavior for a week tops and then they revert and need "just one more chance" again..
2. It won't be on a new level 1 account so that new players won't be affected from this challenge like they did in the past. It will be on the banned account but the banned person won't be able to join any kind of ranked queue, even team.
3. Toxic players are going to be toxic anyway, with or without this challenge, in the end this challenge doesn't really have a downside. There's no way to stop trolls, this challenge can't cause direct damage to the game. 95% of players might have failed the old challenge but that doesn't mean this challenge breeds toxicity, it only makes the existing toxicity apparent. On the other hand, 5% of the permabanned succeeded that challenge, which is better than nothing in terms of rehabilitation.
4. You won't be able to join this program right after you receive a permanent suspension. First there's a long term ban which I thought of 3 or 6 months. So people will think twice before thinking "I'll get it unbanned anyway". For balance purposes, existing temporary bans should also be modified into warning / 3 / 14 / 30 / 90 from warning / 1 / 3 / 7 / 14. The reason why this system would be better than the existing one is explained above in Dominatius Maxim's quote.
Best regards
Please bump and upvote if you support.
Edit: Also - I don't mean for this to sound so harsh, but it's kind of like ending a relationship where one person just doesn't get it...
-Pendragon
It is obvious he does not fit his job decription
I'm going to be respectful as I can but I have to be direct.
It's literally impossible for us to make everyone happy since things that make some players happy will make other players upset. That means we have to choose to prioritize some players over other players. I will always choose friendly, helpful, sportsmanlike, welcoming players over destructive and insulting ones.
I don't just have a desire to do everything that's reasonable to prevent permanently banned people from continuing to play - I have a RESPONSIBILITY to do everything I can.
It's about the people that you impact. I care deeply about those people and their experiences. If you want to change my mind - you have to convince me that giving you a second chance is good for them, not good for you.
In addition to that - it really isn't up to me. Our support team makes these decisions. I'm just letting you know in general how we think about these types of problems.
I made a post on the forums and got banned because of that, was never warned/suspended once in 9 months before that. Don't really see that perma ban worthy =/
The Tribunal isn't perfect, (nor are any of the alternatives), but it's been very effective so far. We're always open to completely scrapping it and starting anew if there's a substantially more attractive alternative you have in mind.
So how many games do you think it'll take?
2?
5?
10?
20?
We'll see!
Game 1 ganked and died twice and made sure to insult team a sufficient amount and left
Game 2 Ganked for mid once died yelled at him for a good ~4min while afk at fountain then left