there I sayd it.
Xypherious I love how you handle things, i really do, what i dont get why is there a need to remake black cleaver? well why not just tweak the corrent one into an usable state and ADD an item with the stats you want the new black cleaver to have, same build same stats just a diferent name and pickture.
i really don't see the point of remaking an item, its pretty point less the same thing goes for stark's favor, you should NEVER remove on item option from the game. It makes no sense if you want item variety remaking items isn't the way, adding items tweaking the current ones is. is black cleaver up? well make the cost to combine to like 100 and see people build it non stop. IE too good? make the combining price 1000 gold, see people build it less, once again, i love this game LOVE it farm more thne i loved DotA, the only thing i miss here is the amazing pool of items dota had. However every time some other build shows up as viable riot stomps it to the ground, happened to deathfire grasp, happened to abysal. what i see is the way to balance an item build is no nerf the item in itself but nerf the cost effectiviness of the item, or in the case its range, some thing, but not the core item in itself. want to add an AD caster item well ADD an ad caster item dont remake somehting that already exist.
Edit: i guess people are not getting the point i'm making i love the items starks have become and black cleaver is becoming in the near future, theese items improved the game. However i don't see why riot can't simply add an item instead of remaking an old item into a new one
I'd like to hit this directly as this line of thought is flawed in two ways:
1. You can't add an item that does something similar to an already existing one without making both items awful.
Why? Because they do the same thing. Thus if one item is good enough to get, you now have to balance towards their stacked potential - which innately forces both items to be bad.
Let's take Stark's and Zeke's - both AS/LS auras. Well, since now you can have both auras, you have to account for the fact that stacked, the team now just has way too much AS or LS. Making them cross non-stack is just random choice for no reason - nor does it make any sense for determining which one should take precedence.
End result: You have to nerf both their auras. You now have 2 bad items at the same time because both can't be good individual buys because their stack case is too abusive.
2. You can't keep adding item pools and "buffing" weak item niches to exist. Weak items are weak for a reason.It mostly has nothing to do with raw statistical power either.
If we remake an item - it's typically because it's incredibly nuanced or the times where it is effective is really really low. You can't buff niche items to the correct power level - because they are often only conditionally useful. Which means that you have to buff to such an extent that when the condition is fulfilled, you automatically win. This isn't the purpose of items.
As an aside - why we wouldn't want to do this in a PvP setting specifically:
Large item pools of the same item over and over again with minor variants doesn't actually give you any real choice - It just adds an additional layer into finding the current OP item among the set of items that fill the same niches.
This both hinders learning and planning of many champion items and builds - especially if you can't devote the time to test and experiment in a laboratory setting or heavy math crunching to determine when it is optimal.
Obsfucation of the 'correct' item for this situations means that the only way to build items is through rote memorization and guides. This kind of destroys the concept of building in accordance to the enemy. If minor variation is required to maximize the effectiveness of an item - you're far better off adding incremental enchantments to an solid base item rather than having multiple items that try to solve the same problem in different ways on the same class. (For example, Boots does this well.)
Riot PLEASE STOP REMAKING ITEMS
Xypherious I love how you handle things, i really do, what i dont get why is there a need to remake black cleaver? well why not just tweak the corrent one into an usable state and ADD an item with the stats you want the new black cleaver to have, same build same stats just a diferent name and pickture.
i really don't see the point of remaking an item, its pretty point less the same thing goes for stark's favor, you should NEVER remove on item option from the game. It makes no sense if you want item variety remaking items isn't the way, adding items tweaking the current ones is. is black cleaver up? well make the cost to combine to like 100 and see people build it non stop. IE too good? make the combining price 1000 gold, see people build it less, once again, i love this game LOVE it farm more thne i loved DotA, the only thing i miss here is the amazing pool of items dota had. However every time some other build shows up as viable riot stomps it to the ground, happened to deathfire grasp, happened to abysal. what i see is the way to balance an item build is no nerf the item in itself but nerf the cost effectiviness of the item, or in the case its range, some thing, but not the core item in itself. want to add an AD caster item well ADD an ad caster item dont remake somehting that already exist.
Edit: i guess people are not getting the point i'm making i love the items starks have become and black cleaver is becoming in the near future, theese items improved the game. However i don't see why riot can't simply add an item instead of remaking an old item into a new one
1. You can't add an item that does something similar to an already existing one without making both items awful.
Why? Because they do the same thing. Thus if one item is good enough to get, you now have to balance towards their stacked potential - which innately forces both items to be bad.
Let's take Stark's and Zeke's - both AS/LS auras. Well, since now you can have both auras, you have to account for the fact that stacked, the team now just has way too much AS or LS. Making them cross non-stack is just random choice for no reason - nor does it make any sense for determining which one should take precedence.
End result: You have to nerf both their auras. You now have 2 bad items at the same time because both can't be good individual buys because their stack case is too abusive.
2. You can't keep adding item pools and "buffing" weak item niches to exist. Weak items are weak for a reason. It mostly has nothing to do with raw statistical power either.
If we remake an item - it's typically because it's incredibly nuanced or the times where it is effective is really really low. You can't buff niche items to the correct power level - because they are often only conditionally useful. Which means that you have to buff to such an extent that when the condition is fulfilled, you automatically win. This isn't the purpose of items.
As an aside - why we wouldn't want to do this in a PvP setting specifically:
Large item pools of the same item over and over again with minor variants doesn't actually give you any real choice - It just adds an additional layer into finding the current OP item among the set of items that fill the same niches.
This both hinders learning and planning of many champion items and builds - especially if you can't devote the time to test and experiment in a laboratory setting or heavy math crunching to determine when it is optimal.
Obsfucation of the 'correct' item for this situations means that the only way to build items is through rote memorization and guides. This kind of destroys the concept of building in accordance to the enemy. If minor variation is required to maximize the effectiveness of an item - you're far better off adding incremental enchantments to an solid base item rather than having multiple items that try to solve the same problem in different ways on the same class. (For example, Boots does this well.)